Beginner questions.

[sempronius]

Hey, I'm just starting to get into martial arts and am really interested in Kung Fu especially. However, I'm having a bit of trouble getting started. I bought "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu: The Secrets of Kung Fu for Self-Defense, Health, and Enlightenment" by Wong Kiew Kit, and have read it pretty in depth. While I've certainly learned a lot and have started doing some simple exercises like training for the horseriding stance, I'm not really sure where to go from here (I know that the obvious step would be to start taking actual classes, but I'll be starting college in a few weeks and it would be really hard.)

There are some sets in the book, but they all seem too complex for a beginner to do, especially with the illustrations being so vauge. What also has me confused is that they're a mix of a bunch of different styles. Out of all the styles presented in the book and everything I've read on the internet the leopard style really suits me best and I'd really love to learn it, but I can't find a single book or dvd that teaches it. I've searched Google, Amazon, Ebay, Abebooks, interlibrary loan. Am I misinterpreting the way that I'm supposed be learning it, or is there some Chinese word of leopard kung fu that I'm missing? I'm really confused, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

[Oso]

Hi and welcome.

1 - that book is not too bad at giving you a literary introduction to CMA. You are correct, you need to start classes somewhere if you really want to train.

2 - you can probably train ma bu from the book just fine for starters. If nothing else, you will build some stamina.

3 - Do you want to take classes?

4 - If so, please let us know where you are and someone can probably direct you to a school.

5 - Don't get 'sold' on CMA. You may not be in an area that has a decent CMA school much less a crappy school. Go with the best recommended school irregardless of style where you like the teacher and feel comfortable in.


Good luck and supply us with more info and we'll try to help.

oh...

6 - ignore the idjits, there are many. :D

[BigPandaBear]

If you're going to a college there should be a great variety of arts to study on campus. What college are you going to?

Even if you don't find Kung Fu, I'm sure you can find something that interests you. Oso's recommendations are spot on.

[sempronius]

Thanks for the speedy replies,

I definitly want to take classes, I just want to wait a few weeks into school to make sure I have a handle on all of my coursework first. I'm going to WPI in Worcester, MA. I'm not really sure if there are any schools there or not.

What exactly does CMA stand for? I agree with you that it's probably more important to find a school that has a good reputation and that I feel comfortable at, but I'm concerned that I'd be investing a lot of time in a style that might not be right for me.

[Key]

CMA stands for Chinese Martial Art.

And I know how you feel, kinda. I'm leaving for New York in 4 days, and am leaving my lovely, little, one of a kind, traditional, Chan Family Choy Lee Fut School behind, and I can already feel the emptiness that I'm gonna feel with no Choy Lee Fut to learn, but alot of colleges are big enough that you will find many people into Kung Fu for you to train with, and some people who are qualified to teach. Like my friend is going to UCSD, and he's not sure if he will teach there, but he's been doing Lohan Kungfu for about 10 years now, and is qualified. I'm sure you can find someone to teach you, and if not, most schools (at least the ones that I researched) had some form of martial art as a PE class, and while very few have Traditional CMA (most have JMA), something is better than nothing.

So if you can get free classes as PE credit through the school, go for it.

And yeah, you need to start taking classes. A book isn't enough.

And alot of styles incorporate Leopard Paw, Choy Lee Fut has some, but you probably want to do 5 Family 5 Animal style; I'm pretty sure that's the most exposure you'll get to leopard paw of any style, unless there's a Leopard Paw school, but I've never heard of it as its own independent style.

[sempronius]

Oh I understand better now...I didn't realize that those five animals were one style. Since that's the case, can anyone reccommend good "5 animal style" books?

As for classes, I'm already signed up for classes in my first year and can't add any PE courses, and I'm not sure if martial arts was even an option. However, the school does have a martial arts club. There arn't really any details on it that I can find, but maybe that will help.

There is one school that I can find in Worcester. "Maury's Looang Foo Pai Kung Fu Academy - Huan Shou Gong Fu." http://www.mauryskungfu.com/
Do you guys have an opinion on this? What sets Looang Foo Pai apart from other styles? Seems pretty legit to me.

Thanks again.

[Mr Punch]

I'm leaving for New York in 4 days, and am leaving my lovely, little, one of a kind, traditional, Chan Family Choy Lee Fut School behind, and I can already feel the emptiness that I'm gonna feel with no Choy Lee Fut to learn, but alot of colleges are big enough that you will find many people into Kung Fu for you to train with, and some people who are qualified to teach. Mate, if you can't find some reasonable kung fu and even CLF in NY, you can't find your arse with a flashlight! :D

[Ben Gash]

OK, bearing in mind that it's a McDojo and teaches a style created by a westerner in 1963, from the photos there's not much structurally wrong with what they do.
If you're willing to travel a bit, there's a school of good lineage in Acton teaching changquan, tongbei, fantzi,baji and pigua, which is an uncommon and cool selection.
Key, there are 2 New York Choy Li Fut instructors on this board!

[Ray Pina]

My recomendation to you, as someone who studies Kung Fu with all his heart, is go find the brazillian ju-jitsu club at your new school. There's bound to be one, it will most likely be free, you'll make friends on campus, and you'll get to apply a lot of techniques very quickly... in no time at all you'll be playing at full speed and you won't risk serious injury.

If you enter the average Kung Fu school, by Christmas you'll know two forms at most, three if you're a super genious, and will have begun the process of ruining your knees. You won't be riding horses or shooting arrows from atop a fortification... you don't need to train that way with stances anymore. It is a remnant of an antique training method.

Look at boxers. Look at UFC fights. Look at Kung Fu in the rare circumstances that they do fight.... they are never in that position. They are never static.

If I was you, knowing what I know now, find the BJJ club. After 8 months of training there, you'll have a pretty good eye already and will be able to go and look at schools and judge their credibility.

If you do this, I'm willing to bet you a box of candy cains you won't end up at a leapord school:)

[jacksawild]

The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu: The Secrets of Kung Fu for Self-defence, Health and Enlightenment - Wong Kiew Kit

Good for the 5 animal set

Complete Book of Shaolin: Comprehensive Program for Physical, Emotional, Mental and Spiritual Development - Kiew Kit Wong

Good for training

Introduction to Shaolin Kung Fu - Kiew Kit Wong

If you don't know the basic stances and hand positions get this.

Get a good teacher too. Because I've trained in kungfu I can pick up basics from books but I would still require transmission form teachers and training partners.

There are videos of the set on his site too:

http://www.wongkk.com


Hope it helps. Did I mention to get a teacher yet? I did? Well I'll say it again, because it's important. Get a good teacher.

peace

[BlueTravesty]

That's some good advice, Ray. However, you have to consider the reasons for training. sempronius might just be looking for a fun workout to relieve some stress, some self-defense techniques, and a dab of Chinese culture.

If someone asked me "Do you want to keep practicing MyJhong or do you want to learn Brazilian JuJitsu?" My response would be "Yes!"(meaning both.)

However, I'm not in college (unfortunately) so I would, in theory have the time (if not the money or access to instruction) to practice both. I like the idea of ground manipulation and being able to defend myself on my back, but I also like forms, strikes, kicks, and weapons. sempronious might not enjoy that advantage, and would have to choose. It would be good to learn one and gain a foundation before mixing in the other for the time being though.

This forum is filled with threads on proposed purposes and guidelines for stance training, so I won't get into it here, except to say that as long as the knee doesn't extend past the toes (and they shouldn't in any stance, except low stance, in which your butt is pulling you down and back, thus reducing and offsetting the forward push on the knee.) you shouldn't have to worry about messing up your knees. Make sure to stretch, and ask your instructor, or even a Phys. Ed coach for ways to prepare your knees for rigorous activity.

[Ray Pina]

I guess I have a prejudice that when I hear someone wants to take up a martial art I assume they want to learn how to defend themselves realistically.

Now, I'm not saying BJJ will serve that purpose exclusively on the street. But on day one he/she will be hands on, getting resistance training. Like I said, after 8 months of this he/she wil have a nice foundation and a means to judge a technique's practicality. From there, they can go and judge schools for themself with some insight.

http://www.floridakungfu.com/images/images/junior-kung-fu-horse-stance.jpg
http://www.pa-kua.com/fyi22/s2overheadpress.jpg

Stances like the above WILL hurt your knee. Any time your knee joint is at or around a 90 degree angle or higher, it is supporting weight. If you drop your weight completely down, not ease it down, then it is safe.

I know a lot of people enjoy doing alot of things that may not be healthy for them. For years I put excessive amounts of marijuana smoke into my lungs KNOWING that it was no good for me.

This is a person with no experience. This person, more than anyone should be given the truth: Most kung fu schools stress forms, which, while pretty and a connection to an oriental past that many of us find romantic, take up a lot of training time that could be used training less romantic but highly more effective drills.

Now, I have found this in a Chinese Internal Martial Arts taught by a Chinese Internal Martial Artists. I'm definitely not the only one, there are other Kung Fu players out there receiving good, realistic training that is effective..... I've been training since I was 4 .... it took me nearly 25 years to find my master.

Whoever this is needs to be informed the best they can and then let them make a decision. Chances are, walking into your average commercial kung fu school, you'll be asked to buy a chinse kung fu uniform, train stances and be taught form. You'll participate in very cooperative drills that will not increase much in intensity and be surrounded by senior students with 5+ years of training and ZERO, none, 0, actuall, out of school fighting experience with other trained martial artists.

This is true for AT LEAST 85% of the commercial CMA schools out there and this is being generous. At a BJJ school, the person will be tested at every class. The students most likely compete.

From here, from this knowledge, then they could go and see if the stand up game being taught at a school seems reasonable. They'll know, well, I learned to get out of that lock by being on the ground and having someone try to lock me. First copperatively, but after a few weeks I can stop that attack at full power.

They'll be able to spot Mickey Mouse stand up training after this.

[BigPandaBear]

I'd tell the kid to do Judo over Bjj if he's going the self defense route. Judo has the same techniques as Bjj (with some variation), and has the tradition that a lot of people look for in Asian MAs. Furthermore, in any Judo club on a college campus, you'll have the wrestlers and Bjj players crosstraining as well so you'll be learning bjj variations anyway.

Not to knock Bjj, but its really only half the style it derived from, and it usually costs a heck of a lot more.

[sempronius]

I like the idea of starting with a style that will give me a solid foundation and some immediate feedback like the bjj or judo you were talking about, but for the long term I think kung fu would be better for me.

http://www.wpi.edu/Campus/Activities/

That's the list of clubs at my school right now, and these are the only ones that really apply unless I'm missing something.

Freestyle Wrestling Club
Shotokan Karate Club
Society of Martial Artists

Looks like that last one actually provides classes in Boxing, Vale Tudo, Bando, Tae Kwon Do, Bushido-Zen Karate. Any opinion on these?

I'll definitly check out those books jacksawild, thanks.

Ben Gash, mapquest says that trip would be about 40 minutes one way...I'm not really sure if I could swing that. However I'm still interested. How many times per week would/should I be going? Is there anything closer?

Thanks again for all your help!

[SevenStar]

Not to knock Bjj, but its really only half the style it derived from, and it usually costs a heck of a lot more.


you're right about the cost, but didn't bjj come from fusen / kosen? that was a style of judo that focused primarily on the ne waza aspect.

[BigPandaBear]

you're right about the cost, but didn't bjj come from fusen / kosen? that was a style of judo that focused primarily on the ne waza aspect.

Nope. Kosen emerged in Japan in 1914, and Maeda left for Brazil in 1904. Kosen and Bjj developed independantly of each other.

Maeda was a Judoka, and so was Kimura who later defeated Helio Gracie.

[SevenStar]

yeah, I know kimura was, but I believe maeda was a fusen guy...

[Oso]

...but for the long term I think kung fu would be better for me.

why?.......

[BigPandaBear]

yeah, I know kimura was, but I believe maeda was a fusen guy...

Maeda wasn't a fusen guy. He was a Judoka who favored newaza. Which is why there's little to no difference in techniques between Judo and Bjj. The only difference lies in philosophy and competition rules.

[Wood Dragon]

If I was you, knowing what I know now, find the BJJ club. After 8 months of training there, you'll have a pretty good eye already and will be able to go and look at schools and judge their credibility.



While it is not quite so clear a case of BJJ-uber-alles, the above quoted paragraph is quite correct. Focusing on basic principles and force-feedback (randori), Judo and BJJ develop concrete and usable skills in a (comparatively) very short period.

Afterwards, should you choose to move on, you will be much more equipped to discern good from bad re: Martial Arts.

[sempronius]

Sorry Oso I guess I worded that badly. What I mean is that based on everything I've read and seen, kung fu appeals to me the most. I probably havn't had enough exposure to other martial arts though, so maybe I'll change my mind after taking some of the courses at college.

Speaking of which, I searched all of the different names I listed before and Vale Tudo basically seems the same as or at least very similar to bjj/judo. This seems like a great way for me to start. Thanks for all your advice guys.

[brianK]

Sempronius,

Ray is right in that Brazilian/JMA arts that focus on ne waza do tend to produce a higher % of practitioners that can actually use their skills than CMAs do. I think many BJJ schools have become too sportive these days, teaching things like pulling guard while still standing which are applicable only in a MMA/sub grappling situation. If you go for a grappling art I would lean towards judo, sambo, or silat, as they were not quite as influenced by the current mma craze. And for tradition, if you can find shuai jiao or a good koryu jujutsu sysytem, you'll get plenty of that.
That said, a good CMA teacher can definitely teach you to fight, and CMAs are a whole lot of fun. I used to view CMAs as flowery and ineffective in my Japanese/Okinowan MA days until I had my as$ thoroughly whupped by an eagle claw guy. His chin na was every bit as painful as the jujutsu locks I had been training. CMAs work when you develop real gong fu, but that's a long (but very rewarding) road.

Brian

[Oso]

sempronius:

definitely do something you like. i get what you're saying now.


just realize that, unfortunately (and I'm basically a CMA guy), that CMA teachers who can fight and can teach you how to fight are a rare find.

just keep your mind open and figure out what YOU want your training to be about. sounds like you're late teens/early twenties...take a year or two to try some different things and figure it out for yourself...taking mine and others advice with a grain of salt.


BPB: there is some history that talks about Maeda and his roots...tried to find it and couldn't...7* is right I think...Maeda was connected to one of the jujitsu schools that predated Kano but merged with him or something like that...but, at any rate, you are also right that the school specialized in nei waza.

I think it was a Matt Thornton article that I'm trying to remember....but maybe someone else.

[BruceSteveRoy]

ok so all the people that are talking about studying judo vs studying bjj. what about studying judo vs studying jjj? they offer jjj on the naval base where i work and its really cheap but right across the street they offer judo on the same days at the same price. i haven't had a chance to check either of them out yet to see which school is better but i was curious what you all thought as a general rule. i want to supplement my cma with a primarily grappling style just because i miss grappling. anyway, let me know what you think.
regards,
~steve

[BigPandaBear]

BPB: there is some history that talks about Maeda and his roots...tried to find it and couldn't...7* is right I think...Maeda was connected to one of the jujitsu schools that predated Kano but merged with him or something like that...but, at any rate, you are also right that the school specialized in nei waza.


I'm sorry but that's incorrect. All of Bjjs techniques are found in Judo. Bjj looks nothing like classical Jujutsu.

[BigPandaBear]

ok so all the people that are talking about studying judo vs studying bjj. what about studying judo vs studying jjj? they offer jjj on the naval base where i work and its really cheap but right across the street they offer judo on the same days at the same price. i haven't had a chance to check either of them out yet to see which school is better but i was curious what you all thought as a general rule. i want to supplement my cma with a primarily grappling style just because i miss grappling. anyway, let me know what you think.
regards,
~steve


I'd personally recommend Judo, simply because its everything that Jj is but it also includes the sport element which adds an exciting addition to the training.

However it depends on your goals. If you want to be a cultural hobbyist, go with Jujutsu. If you want to be a martial athlete go with Judo. Neither art will magically turn you into a badass who beat 100 Ninjas or Thugs, and neither art will guarentee your success in a violent situation. But as Don Draeger said, "its better to have a Judo guy backing you up in a bar".

[CoRWiN]

This is a Kung-Fu forum and he asked a Kung-Fu question ... so how is BJJ, Judo or any other style even in this conversation. No reason to have your flame wars here.

Semp what college are you going to, maybe we can find a school for you?

[Ray Pina]

This is a Kung-Fu forum and he asked a Kung-Fu question ... so how is BJJ, Judo or any other style even in this conversation. No reason to have your flame wars here.

I don't think anyone is flamming here. Just trying to inform a potential martial artists about potential pit falls.

If they go to the yellow pages under Martial Arts and visit "Kung Fu" schools... chances are they will find themself in a strip-mall form factory. Maybe not. But they should be made aware of the difference between some guy in his late 30s, early 40s, whos ego and pockets enjoy the fact that he gets to be sifu and teach a bunch of guys ancient Chinese forms, from Bohdidharma and Shaolin.

If they can find an honest man who wants to pass along his system to a student, a system that knows how to handle various violent forces, that is awesome! Personally, I believe Chinese methods, at least in theory, are more suitable for self defense because they are designed for the small to overcome the large (Chinese are small compared to their notheren neighbors). But this is not so easy to find. However, Judo and BJJ schools are plentiful. And their links to sport combatives generally keep them more honest.

So while they may learn to pull guard (which might not be great on the street) they'll learn how to divert locks and forces, apply forces and locks, and flow with someone with control, setting up movements. These are all basics in all martial arts but may not be trained so seriously at your average Kung Fu school.

You're a Kung FU guy I take it. Have you ever been to a Kung Fu tournament? Have you seen the sparring that goes on there? Have you even seen MMA fights?

Which seems more violent? Which seems more prepared to handle themselves for real?

Be honest.

[BruceSteveRoy]

I'd personally recommend Judo, simply because its everything that Jj is but it also includes the sport element which adds an exciting addition to the training.

However it depends on your goals. If you want to be a cultural hobbyist, go with Jujutsu. If you want to be a martial athlete go with Judo. Neither art will magically turn you into a badass who beat 100 Ninjas or Thugs, and neither art will guarentee your success in a violent situation. But as Don Draeger said, "its better to have a Judo guy backing you up in a bar".
thanks for the advice. that was the direction i was going to since i used to study judo and already have experience. though it is all dependant on the teacher and school. now i just have to get back down to my fighting weight and drop the 20 lbs i put on since i quit smoking.

[CoRWiN]

Yes, I have I have seen mma fights. Yes I have competed in San Shou. Yes I hav egoten in to drunk fraternity brawls using my Kung-Fu.

But you miss the obvious, not once did he say "hey i wanna kick A$$". He likes Kung-Fu, no reason to knock it to him. Why try to sell him on something else?

Yes I agree that the most important thing is a quality instructor, but every other style faces the same questions of credibility as Kung-Fu does.

If semp has any questions about Kung-Fu vs other styles all he has to do is search the various threads. No reason to argue the same points over and over.

From my own college experience, I went to Binghamton NY, 240 miles from my Kung-Fu school. Take about a bummer. Binghamton is a dead town too, nothing goin on their except a 24 hour walmart. Low and behold though the school offered all sorts of martial arts. No Kung-Fu, but I was able to take some great Tai Chi, Tae Kwon Do and Karate Clases. No only did I get easy A's, I was able to practice my basics over and over again, which are all pretty similiar across styles. There was also a martial arts club where we would rotate as instructors sharing our styles.

[jacksawild]

Chin Na, when Tiger or Eagle claw is developed sufficiently goes much deeper into grappling and holds than any other martial art I've ever encountered. A master can seperate tendons, twist muscles and dislocate bones by powerful grips alone. This gripping aspect is what is lacking in most other styles, though it is present it isn't developed nearly so much. It is possible to render an attacker incapable of fighting with a simple arm grip without too much risk of long terms injury to your attacker if you are skilled. It takes three years of dedicated hard and soft training to the hands and arms and isn't for the lighthearted or simple hobbyist. The drawback is it might take longer to learn the traditional Chinese way but the training is very well developed and with perserverance produces breathtaking results.

[Ben Gash]

How many nights a week do you want to train? My recommendation would be to go to the Vale Tudo club for fitness, conditioning, sparring experience, to kickstart your fighting ability and to hang out with other martial artists, and go to the place in Acton once or twice a week for your Kung Fu fix.

[sempronius]

corwin- I'm going to WPI in worcester mass.

ben gash- originally I wanted to go a minimum of three times per week, but seeing as how its 40 minutes away I seriously doubt thats a possibility.

I've read even more about the club and I'm definitly going to be taking the Vale Tudo courses, but if anyone knows any other kung fu schools closer to WPI than the one in Acton then let know me, because I'm not sure if I can make that trip frequently enough to justify whatever membership fee I'd be paying.

[Ben Gash]

I thought 40 minutes wasn't a long trip by American standards (anyway, route planner times tend to add 20% on to the time, if you're travelling in the evening there'll be less traffic). I'm in England (where gas is $1.80 per LITRE!!!!!) and one of my students travels 30 minutes. If you're a student then I'm assuming your day will finish around 4, so you'll have time to travel. If you talk to the Sifu and explain your situation, they may allow you to pay as you go for one or two nights a week.

[BigPandaBear]

This is a Kung-Fu forum and he asked a Kung-Fu question ... so how is BJJ, Judo or any other style even in this conversation. No reason to have your flame wars here.

Judo and Bjj are kung fu as well. ;)

[Ray Pina]

I thought 40 minutes wasn't a long trip by American standards

This was my travel when my master had his school in Chinatown:
1) Walk 6 blocks to the train
2) 1 hour train ride to Penn Station
3) Walk 2 blocks to Subway
4) 10-15 minutes Subway to Canal St.
5) 15 minute walk up Canal Street (slightly uphill) and down Bowery
6) climb 7 flights of stairs.

Finish training at 10:30 p.m. and do the whole thing in reverse. Waiting for the 11:30 train back from Penn getting home almost at 1:oo a.m. ... on a workday.

Now that I train at his house and my apartment is closer:
1) 4 blocks to train
2) 35 minutes to Jamaica station
3) 15 minute walk up a steep hill

This is heaven compared to before.

[sempronius]

I wish that I could say that I'll definitly make that sort of commitment, but seeing as how its 80 minutes altogether during my first year of college where money will be tight enough as it is having never taken a kung fu course before, I'm not sure I can.

I just got an account at citysearch and found some more...

Wah Lum Kung Fu
33 Bradford St
Concord, MA 01742-2986
http://www.wahlum.com/school_listing.htm

Spirit of The Heart Kung-Fu
47 Market St
Northampton, MA 01060-3231
http://www.spiritoftheheart.org/

Shaolin Kung Fu Fitness Center
284 Bridge St
Springfield, MA 01103-1410
http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/

They arn't really any closer though. There is one that's extremeley close though...

Kim's
22 Front St
Worcester, MA 01614

It comes up when I search the site for kung fu, but there is no other information on it. Anyone know anything about it? Thanks again.

[Key]

Mate, if you can't find some reasonable kung fu and even CLF in NY, you can't find your arse with a flashlight! :D

It's in Ithaca, 5 hour drive from New York city.

Population, 12 people not affiliated with the school, and a million cows.