What are the forms in your curriculum?

[Mantis Pride]

We have a curriculum thats a mixture of some pretty sweet forms. I don't know all the forms in our curriculum but I can list what I know. From what I seen other schools have to offer, we have a few forms that others don't. The Weapons form I am not sure what they are by name.

12 Kicks (?)
Wu Shou
Chi SHou
Beng Po
Li Pi Quan
Tang Lang Shou
Staff
Xaio Hu Yan
Da Hu Yan
Broadsword
Mei Hua Luo
Er Lu Jai Wai
Juey Tang lang
Kwan Do
And the rest I have no clue. I'd like to learn more that our school doesn't have like
Mei Hua Luo
Da Fan Che
So if your gonna post them, keep them coming. Once I learn what each movement is. Im practicing hard.

I know up to Tang Lang Tao Tow. Ive been in in out for 4 1/2 years due to my hellish work schedule. It's hard learning when not in class. So You guys are extra helpful when it comes to new stuff.

[monkeyfoot]

well our whole system has 82 hand forms or something like that.

Although the grading syllabus doesnt incorparate all of these.....once you have reached the highest grade possible its just a case of whether or not the sifu/you want to learn the rest of the forms not in the grades.

currently i know

bung bo
gunglek kuen
daw ghong kuen
sap bah sou
haw fuk
yee low
tsahp tchoy
dai fan chie
bi yuan
bi yuan tam tao
moi fa low

staff
sabre (bagua dran do and a shaolin form)
double daggers - Sern Bei Sao
straight sword - Chi Ng Gim

[onyomi]

My shifu knows over 100 Mantis forms, but there are those he likes more than others. According to the basic curricullum he designed (not rigidly adhered to) the following forms are taught in this order:

Ba-bu Lianhuan
Xiao Hu-yan
Xiao Jia-zi
Liuhe Duan-kao
Beng Bu
Da Jia-zi
Meihua-luo
Meihua-quan
Meihua-shou
Baiyuan Chudong
Baiyuan Toutao
Baiyuan Xianguo
Jiekui Quan
Feiyan Zhang
Rouling Quan
Duogang Quan
16-shi Kaohe Lanjie (Figure out how to link 16 moves yourself)

I've only learned up to Baiyuan Chudong, though I've also studied Lipi Quan, Yedi-Canghua, and some of the Zhaiyao (Summary) forms.

That's as far as he has listed on the curriculum. After that you have to do three more advanced forms to go up a rank, like Tanglang Chudong, Tanglang Shou, Zhai Kui, etc. I think his most advanced forms are called Shuaishou Tanglang (Hand Throwing Mantis), as well as something called Nezha-shi, which I believe focuses on using all the limbs with maximum efficiency (named after a Chinese god that can grow extra limbs).

Here is the list of the bare-handed PM forms he teaches:
http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/chuen1.htm

[monkeyfoot]

weird, a post that I made in a tottally different thread arrived here.

hmm anyhow today, I learnt the whole of Moi Fa Sou, and all the applications in under 10 minutes...thats one short ass form

craig

[Mantis Pride]

Tanglang Shou, [/url]

This is my next form. I thought we have Tang Lang Tao Tou, but it is this Tanglang Shou:p My bad. Its a pretty easy form. I know the first 12 movements.

[Mantis Pride]

sap bah sou
tsahp tchoy
dai fan chie



I love these 3 forms. You have to write how to do this one up. Ive seen it done and I've been trying to mock ever since.:o

[monkeyfoot]

moi fa low

www.leekamwing.com - his vol 6 book has every plum blossom form in

tsap tchoy

www.northernmantis.com - this has the whole of this form in pictures

sab baht sou

www.northernmantis.com - same as above

[taichi4eva]

This is what I've learned so far:

Jibenquan 1
Jibenquan 2
Bashou
12 Tan tui
4 Chui
Gangrouquan
Qishou
Wushou
Lipiquan
Bengbutanglang
Meihuashou

Broadsword (Meihuadao)
Staff (Dalanggun)

[K.Brazier]

Just for perspective on quantity.

Li Kunshan(of three mountains of Liayang)
Mantis forms

luan jie
8 elbows(3)
zhai yao(6)
Plum flower road(mei hua lu)

Zhang DeKuei(of secret door fame)
Luan Jie
8 elbows
zhai yao

plus these forms included some extra exercises such as:
qi gung
6 or 7 single movment drills
some stationary postures
some 2 man drills

the 2 man conditioning


Kevin

http://plumflowermantisboxing.com/

[Mantis Pride]

Ive got some videos of some of us doing formsfrom class last night. I will post later on.

Forms shown will be
xaio Hu Yan
Da Hu Yan
Beng Bu
Chi SHou (by me)
Li Pi Quan
Part of Tang Lang Shou
Wu Shou
We are really just practicing working out all of our kinks.

[ironfenix]

kevin,
How can there be such a drastic difference in the number of forms from mantis to mantis. No one can say that Zhang De kuei and Li Kun Shan were not top guys. Why the difference beween their few sets versus the 82s and the over 100s out there?

Onyomi & Monkeyfoot
what style of mantis are you guys talking about?

thanks,
Israel

[yu shan]

I have often wondered why some folks think they need a vast amount of forms.

[Mantis Pride]

I have often wondered why some folks think they need a vast amount of forms.
They have helped me understand a bit more on how they're used and developing combinations and fun to do. Just my Opinion though.:cool:

[onyomi]

My shifu just likes to call his Mantis "Northern Mantis," as he does forms associated with 7*, Meihua, 6 Harmony and Mimen. It pretty much all comes from his teacher, Wang Song Ting, however, and Wang's lineage is considered to be 7*. Apparently Wang himself liked to call his style "Hand-throwing Mantis," and my Shifu also knows 6 forms by that name (Shuai-shou Yilu--Liulu).

My shifu pretty much ascribes to the notion of Mantis being one large art and that 6 Harmony, etc. are more like lineage distinctions or aspects of Mantis rather than whole new styles. So, even though his lineage is 7*, he also knows Meihua and Liuhe forms. The only major style he's unfamiliar with is 8 Step, because it is relatively new.

[mantis108]

In 2002, Kevin ased me if I were to distill all that I have learn from GM Chiu and Galen (they have different approach to the same curriculum) into 3 forms which three of them would they be?

My choice is then:

Lanjie (Luanjie)
Bazhou (Shang Bazhou & Xiao Bazhou)
Taiji Tanglang Shaolin Fo Zhuang (wooden dummy)

My curriculum now is (besides all the basics, Taiji and Qigong)

Taizu Duanda (64 Shou Fa)

Syllabus one:
Qishou (7 hands)
Liuhe Zhang Wushou Chui (6 harmonies palm and 5 hands fist)
Di Tanglang (ground mantis)

Syllabus two:
Lanjie (Luanjie)
Bazhou (Shang Bazhou & Xiao Bazhou)
Taiji Tanglang Shaolin Fo Zhuang (wooden dummy)

My syllabus one is more for the athletic inclined and ground fighting oriented. I would also add in a form called Jie gen which in some ways similar to Bengbu.

Syllabus two is more for the artistic expression of CCK TCPM from my personal perspective. I would add in either Bengbu or Danzhai Meihwa depending on the focus and time available.

Mantis108

[onyomi]

I think the reason behind learning many forms is to help increase understanding of moves and concepts, also helping you work out which specific moves are especially suited to your body type, fighting style, personality, etc.

You could summarize most of the major moves and concepts of Mantis in just a few forms, but then that would mean you have to do a tremendous amount of thinking and experimenting on your own (not necessarily a bad thing :) ) to figure out the countless ways to use those moves. By learning 50 forms you might learn 25 different versions of gou-lou-cai and 25 different versions of gun-lou shou. This will help you get the concepts of gou-lou-cai and gun-lou by exposing you to the wide variation potential of these moves. You could summarize both of these moves simply in one form, but then that leaves a lot more to the imagination of the practitioner.

Also, I like doing a lot of forms in the sense that although you memorize them, they never become totally hard-wired. You don't do it so many times in that order that you start thinking this move MUST follow that one. Also, people have questioned my teacher's very ability to have mastered so many, but that doesn't seem very strange to me at all. The more Mantis forms you learn the faster new ones come and the faster you understand them. In a way, each new form is also a mental exercise, because it makes you think about old moves in new ways, in addition to adding new moves and concepts.

All of these are advantages to my teacher's philosophy of doing many forms. There is also the opposite philosophy of doing a small amount of material so much that you know it backwards and forwards, in your sleep. However, since in the process of learning many forms you gradually wittle down the moves to the ones you especially like, the end result tends to be the same. When you do many forms you kind of go on a personal quest to find your own best moves that you will then spend the most time on. Others, like Xingyi like to tell you from the get go: "here are the five moves you use all the time, now master and refine them," or "here are 5 forms I think represent the essence of Mantis, now master and refine them." Two different ways of getting to the same place, imo.

[Mantis Pride]

I think the reason behind learning many forms is to help increase understanding of moves and concepts, also helping you work out which specific moves are especially suited to your body type, fighting style, personality, etc.

You could summarize most of the major moves and concepts of Mantis in just a few forms, but then that would mean you have to do a tremendous amount of thinking and experimenting on your own (not necessarily a bad thing :) ) to figure out the countless ways to use those moves. By learning 50 forms you might learn 25 different versions of gou-lou-cai and 25 different versions of gun-lou shou. This will help you get the concepts of gou-lou-cai and gun-lou by exposing you to the wide variation potential of these moves. You could summarize both of these moves simply in one form, but then that leaves a lot more to the imagination of the practitioner.

Also, I like doing a lot of forms in the sense that although you memorize them, they never become totally hard-wired. You don't do it so many times in that order that you start thinking this move MUST follow that one. Also, people have questioned my teacher's very ability to have mastered so many, but that doesn't seem very strange to me at all. The more Mantis forms you learn the faster new ones come and the faster you understand them. In a way, each new form is also a mental exercise, because it makes you think about old moves in new ways, in addition to adding new moves and concepts.

All of these are advantages to my teacher's philosophy of doing many forms. There is also the opposite philosophy of doing a small amount of material so much that you know it backwards and forwards, in your sleep. However, since in the process of learning many forms you gradually wittle down the moves to the ones you especially like, the end result tends to be the same. When you do many forms you kind of go on a personal quest to find your own best moves that you will then spend the most time on. Others, like Xingyi like to tell you from the get go: "here are the five moves you use all the time, now master and refine them," or "here are 5 forms I think represent the essence of Mantis, now master and refine them." Two different ways of getting to the same place, imo.



Very Well Stated.:)

[bungbukuen]

Its been talked about before. Forms are just one small piece of the much larger training puzzle. Mastering forms is the equivalent of dancing. Mastering fighting skills is the epitome of Mantis.

[onyomi]

Its been talked about before. Forms are just one small piece of the much larger training puzzle. Mastering forms is the equivalent of dancing. Mastering fighting skills is the epitome of Mantis.

Mastering forms isn't the equivalent of dancing IF you've really mastered them... because to master them implies realistic understanding of the execution and application of every move in the form.

Also, note I didn't say "we spend all our class time learning forms," I said "at our school, we learn a lot of forms." Forms probably only take up 30% of our class time. We still do a lot of other stuff from pair drills to bag work to qigong to sparring. I never said "forms are all you need to become a great Mantis fighter." I just said "learning a lot of forms over the course of years can be very helpful to a Mantis fighter."

[yu shan]

Profatilov told me once, the forms are the encyclopedia of your techniques. Me, I think they are very important, and just another piece of the pie. Also forms training is a good cardio workout. I just don`t believe in having 100 forms in my arsenal.

[K.Brazier]

Hi Isreal,

"How can there be such a drastic difference in the number of forms from mantis to mantis."

The ****her back in time you go the fewer forms there seem to be comprising a style.
Mantis was based on some simple hand moves with certain types of footwork.
When some students learned this they wrote it down(I have been exposing translations of this material bit by bit over the years).

Some generations would add some of his own material.

My Shiye Luan Xingfu had but a handful of zhai yao forms.
His entire methodolgy was all 2 man stuff. When my shifu went there to study Master Luan was not even teaching(retired military). He told my shifu that Mantis couldn't be learned unless he brought some others to learn with him.

Later my shifu also invited Master Luan to teach at his school on a regular basis.
Warm ups basically started with a breath of air( a big one) and a hard strike to the gut for 40-50 minutes. So in his curriculum there just wasn't enuf time and energy for a lot fo forms as doing pai da qigung for 40 m is already quite draining.

But, in my opinion, if someone likes to learn a lot of forms there is no reason why that should be denied them if they get enjoyment from it.
Most Masters of the old school will frown on it as it has been their belief that learning a lot of forms has a negative impact on fighting skill.

Of course there are many dissenters to this, such as Onyomi's shifu, who find that learning a lot fo forms is ok.


'No one can say that Zhang De kuei and Li Kun Shan were not top guys.'

Actually there were some who said such. These masters put their money where their mouth was and fought it out. That is why we respect their opinions nowadays.

Like 8 step's Shifu, Wei Xiaotang, and Robert's shifu, Zhao Zhuxi, who also had relatively few forms, they spent more time on apps.
Their opinion is also highly respected as they have fought many times.

Wei's Student, Wang Jie (Mike Martello's Shifu), I think does not do forms at all. He is 100% contact as far as I know.

I think that the forms are a good way to go from no understanding to contact training. They are also a marvel to think and ponder on as the good ones are so intellegently arranged.

Training forms is also a good exercise when you have no partners.

Robert,
You still remember that?

Kevin

[mantis108]

Of course I remember, man! :D

Seriously, that meeting has to be definitely one of the most important ground breaking Kung Fu experiences for me.

The question that you asked actually helps me to better organize my material. In fact, it makes me realize that it's properly a good idea to "keep the house clean" so to speak. This is why you see the comparatively small amount of forms in my curriculum. BTW, I also believe that mantis is best practice with a partner. GM Chiu ecouraged his students to find a partner of similar size to practice the Sau Fa/Shou Fa.

I believe that it's a good idea to review the curriculum every 2 years or so, which is what I am doing.

Warmest regards

Robert

[bungbukuen]

K. Braizer - Why is Onyomis teacher a dissentor? Using that word makes it sound like his teacher veered defiantly and/or drastically from the ideas prescribed by his originall teacher.

Thanks,
BBK

[K.Brazier]

Hi BBK,
No disrespect intended.
Many shifu's have a large curriculum. Since Onyomi is on this thread I used him as an example.
I might add that my own shifu has learned a lot of forms and teaches according to the characteristics of each individual student.

I too have learned many forms, but i only practice a small number of them.
I suppose if I were to teach a lot of young people I would likely teach some of the exciting kicking forms from the Mizhong Yi aspect of my style.

I hope that clears up my meaning a bit.

Kevin

[bungbukuen]

No worries. Just thought I would check because "disent" is a power packed word.

Thanks,
BBK

[Yao Sing]

I'm still formulating a curriculum in preparation for teaching again. Since I'm no longer aligned with any school, style or organization I have a free hand to what I want, how I want.

Of course it will change over time as I learn and refine it but it's a great learning experience in itself. I'll post more when I'm ready to go public but until then this thread is a wealth of information for me. Thanks guys and keep the info coming.

[yu shan]

You will learn a wealth of knowledge here. Good luck with your school and look forward to your posts.

[Yao Sing]

Oh yeah, I forgot you don't know who I am. Thanks anyhow, Jim.


Guess I need to take some time and fill out my profile.

[Hau Tien]

Profatilov told me once, the forms are the encyclopedia of your techniques. Me, I think they are very important, and just another piece of the pie. Also forms training is a good cardio workout. I just don`t believe in having 100 forms in my arsenal.

I've never heard it put that way, but have always seen forms that way. They are the reference you have for the movements and "flavour" of the system. Practicing forms alone will not make you a fighter, obviously, but they're great for helping you remember the particulars of a martial art :)

[ironfenix]

I remember hearing once that the explosion of forms was for student retention basically to "make the book heavier". It is true that the material is presented in different combinations and stuff so I can see the pros of both sides.

Jim,
Sifu told me once that learning a bunch of forms was like owning a bunch of P.O.S. cars (note piece of SHIRT cars was my addition). He said pretty soon it gets tiring to wash them all. Instead, he says, have 2 or 3 lamborguinis that you hand polish everyday and that you know the ins and outs of, so when someone says they want to race, they can put their P.O.S. against your lambourguini.
Makes a whole lot of sense to me! But he also said that Mantis was taught to advanced guys back in the day so now we need a few beginner forms to start them off in the way. I personally think two to three basics are good starters before they get the good stuff. We do forms in the school but also work a lot on applications, sparring, and chen style push hands, with a little bag work and conditioning.

israel

[Mantis Pride]

Sounds like our school with a small curriculum. I have learned a lot of others from other people on my own just for fun too. Just helps pass the time and definently helps when training alone. IMHO:p