The Yin Yang sign - What do you know about it?

[JohnnyMnemonic]

http://i2.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/d7/ea/25_1_b.JPG

[cjurakpt]

interesting question (oh no, the stalker! :eek: ), worthy of some discourse

well, first off, to call it the "Yin Yang" symbol is a misnomer - assuming that you are purposefully dumbing it down for the hoi polloi, you certainly know it's correctly called the Tai Chi symbol; so let's start there, calling it what it should be called...

as far as what the symbol itself means, I would first challenge you to provide an accurate translation of the term Tai Chi (sorry, "Supreme Ultimate" doesn't cut it - it's a much more specific allusion); if you want to have a productive discussion about it, knowing what it means is useful (knowing a little bit about Taoist cosmological tradition should help you get started; I'll give you a hint - where does Superman live?);

don't worry, if you can't figure it out in a few days, I'll post it, since I don't want to be labled as a dangler as well

as far as something "useful" about the symbol, it is one of the oldest examples of binary code in existance (a correlate would be the broken and unbroken lines of the I Ching); as far as the other stuff, describing the dynamic interplay and continual self-transformative nature of polar dialectics, that's all been done to death

also, the symbol doesn't exist in isolation - it's the second step in the Taoist creation "flow chart" after primordial chaos (Hun Dun), indicating that from this miasma of non-diferentiation/unity (subjective) there then arose differentiation/polarity, (objective); this can also be used as a metaphor for many other things: societal development, individual consciousness, etc.

BTW, I am curious as to how the above is damaging my health, fueling the war in Lebanon and erasing information in the Akashic Record...

[charyuop]

Well, I speak from a non cultured person and I don't expect to be someone who knows something, thus don't be afraid of doubt my words.

First of all the word Tai Chi. In the past I studied a little of Japanese and in Japanese writing there are words with double reading: Japanese and Chinese. Not all the Chinese readings are still a match with the actual Chinese language, but I was curious about the word Tai. Everybody says Supreme Ultimate Fist, but what I managed to find through dictionaries online it is more like "Big=Tai Chi=Spirit, thus it should be the Fist of the Big Spirit...but I might be wrong.

By what I read years ago, and might not remember well, the simbol of Yin-Yang should resemble (and here bear with me, English is not my language so I try a literal translation) the "void into everything and the everything into the void". It means that everything is "complementary" (not as in free hee hee). Everything has an opposite and that opposite is necessary to complete it. For example you can't have Good without Evil, as you said Hard without Soft or Full without Empty.
I guess this my interpretation of what I read sometime ago would work perfectly with Tai Chi if you think of the Duei La, the inside balance of the energies. Everytime your energy moves to one arm, leg, hand or any other part of the body you have to "compensate" in other part of the body, emptying one side means loading another side.

As I said feel free to doubt my words....coz I do hee hee.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Taiji symbol... most people overlook its unity, the representation of change within a unified symbol.. contained within a circle.. implying two sides of the same coin.. i speak only of my own experience, but.. for me, it represents change.. (lengthy discourse not needed)..

Be well...

[RAF]

http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/yinyang.htm

"By observing the sky, recording the Dipper's positions and watching the shadow of the Sun from an 8-foot (Chinese measurement) pole, ancient Chinese determined the four directions. The direction of sunrise is the East; the direction of sunset is the West; the direction of the shortest shadow is the South and the direction of the longest shadow is the North. At night, the direction of the Polaris star is the North.

They noticed the seasonal changes. When the Dipper points to the East, it's spring; when the Dipper points to the South, it's summer; when the Dipper points to the West, it's fall; when the Dipper points to the North, it's winter.

When observing the cycle of the Sun, ancient Chinese simply used a pole about 8 feet long, posted at right angles to the ground and recorded positions of the shadow. Then they found the length of a year is around 365.25 days. They even divided the year's cycle into 24 Segments, including the Vernal Equinox, Autumnal Equinox, Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice, using the sunrise and Dipper positions.

They used six concentric circles, marked the 24-Segment points, divided the circles into 24 sectors and recorded the length of shadow every day. The shortest shadow is found on the day of Summer Solstice. The longest shadow is found on the day of Winter Solstice. After connecting each lines and dimming Yin Part from Summer Solstice to Winter Solstice, the Sun chart looks like below. The ecliptic angle 23 26' 19'' of the Earth can be seen in this chart.

http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/clc/LunarCalendar.htm

By rotating the Sun chart and positioning the Winter Solstice at the bottom, it will look like this . The light color area which indicates more sunlight is called Yang (Sun). The dark color area has less sunlight (more moonlight) and is called Yin (Moon). Yang is like man. Yin is like woman. Yang wouldn't grow without Yin. Yin couldn't give birth without Yang. Yin is born (begins) at Summer Solstice and Yang is born (begins) at Winter Solstice. Therefore one little circle Yin is marked on the Summer Solstice position. Another little circle Yang is marked on the Winter Solstice position. These two little circles look like two fish eyes.

In general, the Yin Yang symbol is a Chinese representation of the entire celestial phenomenon. It contains the cycle of Sun, four seasons, 24-Segment Chi, the foundation of the I-Ching and the Chinese calendar."

by Allen Tsai
___________________________________

Interesting read but don't know its references.

[YiLiQuan1]

OK. Now that I have determined that YiLiQuan1 is a hopeless case, I can stop wasting time on him and hopefully deal with the rational and curious people.

Interesting how you start a new thread and fire away at me behind my back... That's a very "enlightened" thing to do, Tai Chi Peaceful Master Mnemonic. :rolleyes:


People who can write 5 inches of sentences per post.

And then there's you, writing long posts, saying nothing, dangling carrots in front of others here in an effort to set yourself up as some kind of authority figure. Yeah, you're the better man, for sure... :rolleyes:


To prove my point I have a very simple question or challenge. Say something useful and meaningful about the Yin Yang sign. You cannot say "Yin is soft and Yang is hard". A gradeschooler knows that. You must provide some honest kind of insight into what the Yin and Yang sign signifies or teaches or implies.

Who are you to challenge anyone to provide information? Why do you think you have the authority, right, position, or need to make others provide you with answers? Who made you Super Teacher Guy?


Don't be afraid. Put your reputation on the line. I am. You have nothing to lose if you really do know kung fu. You only have something to lose if you have self doubt about your own knowledge.

Same back at you... Don't be afraid, put your knowledge and reputation on the line instead of dancing around, claiming to be psychic, claiming to see "energy vampires" and zombies wherever you go, claiming that others follow you around because they're "drawn to your energy," and actually put out something useful for a change... :rolleyes:


Come on. Don't be shy. Let's stop all the name calling and game playing and get down to the interesting stuff. Say something simple but meaningful about the Yin Yang sign in plain english that anyone, even a teenager, can understand.

You first John-John... ;)

[mantis108]

Indeed the Yin Yang Sign is not known as Taiji Diagram (Taiji Tu) or Taiji for that matter traditionally. I simply translate the term Taiji as Grand Ultimate. The Yin Yang sign is traditionally known as Hei Bai Yin Yang Yu Tu (black white Yin Yang fish diagram) or Yin Yang Yu Tu for short. This sign, according to Yijing (classic of change) researchers, is rather a spin on Xian Tian Tu (primodial diagram) by an exceptional scholar, Shaw Yong (1011-1077 CE), during the Northern Song dynasty. The spin was made possible by the Southern Song scholar Zhu Xi, who created his "reasoning" approach and interpretation of Shaw's work that is pragmatic in nature. A lot of the "misconception" and misinterpretations" today about the Yijing concepts (Yin yang, Bagua and all) are caused by Zhu Xi's Confucian school of thoughts.

The Yin Yang Sign is about 2 archetypes (ie Carl Yung's work) in the west since it is based in reasoning. But the original "message" was that it is about the Liang Yi - Heaven and Earth - the pragmatic approach of Shaw Yong. It is of note that Yin Yang are attributes or rather mental concepts. They are not real objects. You can not see, taste, smell or touch Yin Yang but you certainly can conceptualize Yin Yang. Yin Yang are attributes of Heaven and Earth not the other way around! This must be understand clearly before working with Shaw's Xian Tian Tu study.

Yin Yang Sign is at best a simple visual aide to convey the rendered message (not the actually knowledge in proper form) IMHO. But then modern concept such as Quantum Hologram could be represented by it. So... it serves some purposes.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I disagree with that statement completely.

I think I worded my challenge poorly. The man responding with the lunar calender stuff posted something interesting. I did not know that and it looks interesting. I cannot reject it for not being something worthwhile to know about the Yin Yang Symbol.

The article concerning the lunar calendar and the Yin Yang symbol is nice and all. No doubt it is interesting way of looking at it. But it also err IMHO in that it appears to have jumped into conclusion and presenting information as facts. Any one who studies the Yijing understands the importance of solar terms, moon phase, etc. can be link to the Yin Yang symbol. The method or rather the equipment of which it claims that Yin Yang symbol derived from is know as Hua Bui. It's a season dial that could theoretically be where the Gua (trigrams) came from. There simply is no prove that the Yijing trigrams was developed from observing the Hua Bui although we could "deduce" or theorize that Hua Bui method could have contributed given its function evidently.

As theory, it's fine but as proofs and facts. There are much work to be done. I am not saying the article is not good. It's a place to start but that's not the full story.


What I was hoping for was something more concrete and useful to someone on a personal basis. The lunar calender might help an astrologist or be interesting to an intellectual. I think most regular people would not be interested.

Well, no offense, I believe that's rather selective. We know that being selective and taking information out of context could lead a powerful nation such as the USA to go into a war (ie incomplete report of WMD in Iraq). So no serious seekers of truth should take any kind of information out of context. Personally, if one were not prepare to disclose the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then it's better to leave the subject untouched or sealed for a time. Inaction is an action too. ;)


I want something about the Yin Yang sign that you could tell to a 15 year old kid and, if they are bright and curious, would help them understand why martial arts are performed the way the teacher tells him to perform them.

I see where you are coming from. But then if the pupil is ready, the master will appear. May be it's not time for him/her to begin the journey.


I think that TaiChiBob's mention of change would be too nebulous for a 15 year old kid. I don't think they have the ability to think that deeply at that age, do they? I think a 15 year old kid would respond similarly to the Lunar Calender material, or the material that describes Tai Chi as an intermediate symbol that is part of a larger theory. For a 15 year old kid, that is too philosophical or intellectual. None if it would help the kid understand something about his martial arts forms.


Did I do a better job of defining this time?

Age and wisdom is not always parallel. The other factor is how you transmit the info. If you are a knowledgeable teacher and have thorough understanding of the subject whatever that may be, you would have many interesting ways to impress the young and hungry mind. If you tried your best and they still don't understand, well it not meant to be.

Just my opinions on the matter. I am not saying in any way form or shape that I know any better or more than anyone.

Regards

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Its everything and its nothing!

[omarthefish]

I think that TaiChiBob's mention of change would be too nebulous for a 15 year old kid. I don't think they have the ability to think that deeply at that age, do they? I think a 15 year old kid would respond similarly to the Lunar Calender material, or the material that describes Tai Chi as an intermediate symbol that is part of a larger theory. For a 15 year old kid, that is too philosophical or intellectual. None if it would help the kid understand something about his martial arts forms.


Did I do a better job of defining this time?


Ah... .so what you want is a dumbed down answer.

Silly me, I went and gave a serious answer. But the irony is that the Taiji symbol is just that. The symbol IS the simple explanation that you can give to someone with more limited abstract imaging capabilities. In relation to MA, it represents how fullness of extreme anything, gives birth to it's opposite and how opposites work in cycles.

You push. I pull. We form a whole. As your push grows and develops, my ability to pull contracts and shrinks but as the pull contracts it creates the conditions for my own push and as you extend your push, you create the conditions to pull. Taijiquan, is based on the recognition of the interplay between these kinds of opposing and mutually creating pairs of actions.

Wether it's pushing and pulling, inhaling and exhaling, to people flanking each other, changing levels, any change at all that happens in a relationship (which is to say any change at all) this dynamic, extremes giving birth to opposites and the mutual relationship between the 2 participants in the "equation" can be roughly symbolized by the "double fish" symbol aka the "taiji-tu".

[cjurakpt]

as for the translation of tai ji, as I understand it, and not withstanding the above post, it would be given as Great Pivot (or Polarity, which can be construed as extreme, as in that polarities exist at two extremes); basically, the "ji" character, at least in its original inception, refers to the axis around which the heavens rotate - from earth, it looks like that happens at, you guessed it, the point of Polaris, the North Star; for the Taoists, this was cosmologically very important interms of their longeviy/immortality ractice, since seasonal changes were incorporated into their practice in various ways; there is a great deal of focus on the Polaris star in meditative Taoist practice, and the tai ji form in particular is a shamanistic ritualistic representation of "returning to the source" (old style anti-aging therapy), with the north star being the point of origin (it's at the end of the form - Stepping up to the Seven Stars - = Big Dipper / Great Bear); in another part of the form there is the Bear Walk, which is typically translated as Cloud Hands, which is done in a pattern representing the seven dipper stars...

so that whole article on the lunar/solar cycles was actually very relevant to the issue (another interesting thing it mentioned was that the I Jing is at times referred to the Book of Ease (as opposed to changes); one reason for this is thtat, not that the book itself is easy to use or not, but that if you can use it correctly your life will be one of relative ease because you wil always be able to appropriately adapt to the many changes that come about in life...)

[YiLiQuan1]

Ah... .so what you want is a dumbed down answer.

The fact that JohnnyMnemonic sets up Q&A sessions like this, ever asking and never providing worthwhile content, combined with what appears to be a lack of information regarding simple material that, during a 10 - 15 year period of training in Taijiquan, he should already have, leads me to believe that his "trolling" is more to bolster his own information base than it is to impart any information on others...

I've been involved with online forums since 2001, and in the intervening 5+ years I've found that it's not always the best idea to give out too much info... It's spoonfeeding the good students by handing them information I've worked to earn, and it's handing potential legitimization material to the hackers, slackers, and frauds who don't know the real deal in the first place.

[cjurakpt]

I must not have been clear. I was hoping that you would provide some of your insight into what you think the Yin Yang sign is about. I did not ask for people to issue me a challenge. If you have a challenge, you can start your own thread also. Nobody is stopping you. If it is interesting, people will respond to you.

well, you used the word "challenge" first - it's a pretty strong opening, so if you get it back atcha, that's life;


I suppose I could see that.

well, if you read Master Jou's book on I Ching, you'd be seeing it without the supposition...


Does that knowledge, that the Yin Yang sign could be a binary code, help you in performing or understanding the martial arts?

not per se - when I am toouching hands with someone, it doesn't really pop into my head at that moment; actually, I don't hink that the point of the symmbol is to imrpove fighting skill by simply contemplating it - it's a hermetic for all the varied possibilites that exist in a fight (or social interaction) that guide training in MA and life;

but if you are really interested in the direct aplication to MA, let me ask you, if you look down from a birdseye view at two people setting up for double-handed push-hands, what shape do they make?


I do not understand the question. My guess would be that sarcasm went over my head.

must have...

[cjurakpt]

The fact that JohnnyMnemonic sets up Q&A sessions like this, ever asking and never providing worthwhile content, combined with what appears to be a lack of information regarding simple material that, during a 10 - 15 year period of training in Taijiquan, he should already have, leads me to believe that his "trolling" is more to bolster his own information base than it is to impart any information on others...

well, that's what it certainly seems like - it sounded like a fish for info, since he did the whole "don't be shy, put yourself out there like I'm doing" and then he didn't contribute anything - ha!he's pretty transparant; but that's ok - it stimulated some interesting responses, the link to the lunar / solar cycle thing was a neat find and some of the other posts were informative;


I've been involved with online forums since 2001, and in the intervening 5+ years I've found that it's not always the best idea to give out too much info... It's spoonfeeding the good students by handing them information I've worked to earn, and it's handing potential legitimization material to the hackers, slackers, and frauds who don't know the real deal in the first place.

while I take your point of concern, but, TBH, I think it's minimal, the potential for harm - I mean, you can just google tai ji and get enough info to bamboozle the unsuspecting public forever; besides, the only real "info" IMHO is what you get when you and your teacher interract directly / touch hands, etc. - all the other stuff is nice and useful, but in terms of one's own internal transformation, not really necessary...but, I do take your point about giving something away too easily that you've worked hard to discover - I guess I focus on the people on the forum like Bob and Scott (and based on what I've read of yours, you would fall into that category) who are obviously dedicated, knowledgeable and can contribute as much if not more than myself to a discussion - a lot of what we share is stuff we've learned by the sweat of our collective brows, which could be coopted by any lurker, so what are you gonna do?

but then again, why should I talk to you, as you are a hateful, evil man who, despite all JM's best efforts, succumbed to the lure of the Dark Side (I mean, what was that all about anyway? is he like, Yoda?)

[YiLiQuan1]

well, that's what it certainly seems like - it sounded like a fish for info, since he did the whole "don't be shy, put yourself out there like I'm doing" and then he didn't contribute anything - ha!he's pretty transparant

The collective sum of his posts that I've read thusfar lead me to believe he doesn't know half of what he'd have others believe. He's like so many other Keyboard Warriors, making claims that he can't substantiate, getting upset when he's called out, and then running for the hills when more than one person realizes he's full of it.


while I take your point of concern, but, TBH, I think it's minimal, the potential for harm - I mean, you can just google tai ji and get enough info to bamboozle the unsuspecting public forever

True. I guess it's a bit of "I refuse to be a party to his actions" just as much as it is an issue of "I'm not going to make learning easy for anyone." My teacher taught me that you give out 100% of your knowledge to 100% of your students. The ones that are going to use it, will; the ones who would abuse the information, won't have the discipline to train it in the first place. Normally I'll put everything I have out there, but not for this guy... :rolleyes:


besides, the only real "info" IMHO is what you get when you and your teacher interract directly / touch hands, etc.

I agree entirely. JM can read all the books he likes, read all the posts he likes, and gather information from as many movies as he likes, but he fails to realize that the only real learning takes place during physical training. He apparently spends his time cultivating all the non-physical aspects, but does so without employing the means that gave rise to those aspects in the first place, thus hamstringing any attempts to develop at all... It's like trying to learn to swim on dry land, or to ride a bike without ever getting rid of the training wheels. But he doesn't get that part of it, nor do I hold any hope that he ever will...


but then again, why should I talk to you, as you are a hateful, evil man who, despite all JM's best efforts, succumbed to the lure of the Dark Side (I mean, what was that all about anyway? is he like, Yoda?)

Yeah, I'm a regular Darth Somebody, ain't I? I've run into people like JM all too often over the years... He's swallowed the stories, movies, and myths, and can no longer differentiate between fantasy and reality. His teacher(s) has/have done poorly by him by allowing him to believe he's gotten that kind of guidance from them... If they really did teach him the things he spouts, more's the pity.

Ah well... I'm off to build a Death Star to spew my evil, vile hatred around the galaxy... :D

[omarthefish]

The fact that JohnnyMnemonic sets up Q&A sessions like this, ever asking and never providing worthwhile content, combined with what appears to be a lack of information regarding simple material that, during a 10 - 15 year period of training in Taijiquan, he should already have, leads me to believe that his "trolling" is more to bolster his own information base than it is to impart any information on others...

I've been involved with online forums since 2001, and in the intervening 5+ years I've found that it's not always the best idea to give out too much info... It's spoonfeeding the good students by handing them information I've worked to earn, and it's handing potential legitimization material to the hackers, slackers, and frauds who don't know the real deal in the first place.

blech.

Excellent point. I'll keep that in mind. I've been on these boards since about the same time. I started Baji about that time and went online fishing for info about this style I was learning that I seemed to have heard of somewhere before but didn't really remember where. But it wasn't untill kind of recently I started thinking much about the fairly profound influence the internet has had on the MA community and how it warps many of the old ways.

[YiLiQuan1]

I've been studying martial arts, specifically Yiliquan, since 1985. I've also studied Aikido, Boxing (both for an exceedingly brief period of time), Shuri-te Ha Karate-do, Modern Arnis, Ryu Te Karate (all while living in Japan), Judo and Systema. The only art I've spent any real time with is Yiliquan, and it is what I spend 90% of my time training.

I've taught, off and on, since 1995 (though I taught some classes prior to that), and have had maybe 1 out of 10 students display the characteristics of a person that would continue to study in the long term. The other 90% of my students were like any other student - there just for a short time, not interested in the long term investment that martial arts requires for real development and benefits.

I've learned, the hard way, that "earning" is the greater portion of "learning," and so though I hand out information to anyone I train with, giving 100% of what I have to offer, I don't make "earning" any of the "learning" easy at all... They have to earn it just the same as I did.

Returning to the topic at hand, regardless of the thread starter, the internet is both the best and worst thing to happen to martial arts. It's good because it allows beginners to research their options, to determine the legitimacy of their art and instructor, and it allows them to network with likeminded people. It's bad, though, because it provides questionable people access to the ignorant public, with tools that help to further their goal of defrauding new students and substantiating their bogus claims.

Whatever. I don't have any real ill will toward Johnny-boy, but I'm not about to let up the pressure... Life imitates (martial) art, and it's only a matter of time, with sufficient frontal pressure, before JM makes the error that leads to his own downfall...

Enjoy.

[cjurakpt]

... the internet is both the best and worst thing to happen to martial arts. It's good because it allows beginners to research their options, to determine the legitimacy of their art and instructor, and it allows them to network with likeminded people. It's bad, though, because it provides questionable people access to the ignorant public, with tools that help to further their goal of defrauding new students and substantiating their bogus claims.

very pithy; well said... my advice, burn the whole **** thing! ;)


Whatever. I don't have any real ill will toward Johnny-boy, but I'm not about to let up the pressure... Life imitates (martial) art, and it's only a matter of time, with sufficient frontal pressure, before JM makes the error that leads to his own downfall...

perhaps you mean frontal lobe pressure? cause that would put a stop to him real quick (unless, by now, his psychic powers have warned him off); as a troll, he's certainly amusing (the reality may be a little more frigthening)


Enjoy.

oh, I shall indeed...actually read some of your old posts re: realities of H2H combat in the military, Dr. Painter - find myself in general agreement w/you on all points...

re" YiLiQuan are you guys the same style as Sifu Sam Chin (iliqchuan.org/)? his is also an amalgam of several internal styles and has a similar name,; if so, we are actually semi-"related", as he and my teacher have exchanged from time to time over the years

[charyuop]

I do not intend to be rude or hurtful. To me, this is an example of people repeating buzzwords and things that they have read.

No rudeness or hurting seen in there. And yes it was stuff that I read. But don't we all build our believes based on things we read and study?
I am sorry if my answer is not up to your challange, but I cannot change what I believe in because I expect something more.
Learn from the Yin/Yang sign even in this case, Easy complete Difficult...you can have difficult concepts inside of easy answers...think about it.

[YiLiQuan1]

actually read some of your old posts re: realities of H2H combat in the military, Dr. Painter - find myself in general agreement w/you on all points...

Here's the difference between JM and me... I'll tell you straight up that my opinions are mine, my perceptions are mine, and though they are often shared by many others, don't take them as anything but... Mileage varies, right? ;)

All I can relate is my direct experience, nothing more. Anything I've written, here or elsewhere, is a product of that alone.


re" YiLiQuan are you guys the same style as Sifu Sam Chin (iliqchuan.org/)? his is also an amalgam of several internal styles and has a similar name,; if so, we are actually semi-"related", as he and my teacher have exchanged from time to time over the years

Nope. Not us. Yiliquan translates as "One Principle Fist/Boxing." It was formulated by Sifu Phillip Starr from material he learned from his teacher, Sifu Chen Wing-chou, and his teacher's contemporary, Sifu Ho Ming-lan. I'd be happy to discuss any aspect of it should you have questions (the harder, the better... unlike others, I have nothing to hide and I relish the opportunity to inform people about the art I've studied for so long).

Enjoy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I understand that most books about Asian philosphy and martial arts refer to the Yin Yang sign as a sign of change. If I am a white American who never heard of martial arts, how will knowing "the Yin Yang sign is a sign of change" help my practice?

Or is it one of those mental things that is supposed to develop your ability to think?Most Orientals i ask reply something like: "Well, aside from the overanalysis of westerners, it is just a representation of change".. sure, there are volumes of words that assign so many implications of preferences, but.. keeping it simple seems best.. "Change" can be easily applied to most of the stated complex meanings.. While i enjoy the exercise of contemplation regarding meanings of the symbol, i ultimately find peace in simplicity.. i doubt that the ancients devised cryptic symbols to be debated and contemplated ad nauseum, they found a graphic representation of a simple principle.. the dynamic interplay of contrasting principles, or.. "change"... Even as a simple representation of binary code, the code is useless without the "change" that inspires action, until we shift from on to off or vice versa, we have a static condition.. it is the "change" that initiates action..

"If I am a white American who never heard of martial arts, how will knowing "the Yin Yang sign is a sign of change" help my practice?".. well, if you never heard of martial arts, you have no practice.. but, if you are just beginning, it may help you understand that "change" is inevitable.. that your understanding of "truth" is subject to change as better evidence is exposed.. it may help the aspiring martial artist understand that no "system" is complete in and of itself, that change is necessary to negotiate any situation.. that "change" is dynamic, and fixed notions are stagnate..

"Or is it one of those mental things that is supposed to develop your ability to think?".. Yes!! it is not!! no, it's just a statement of my own personal interpretation of the symbol, as was requested.

Be well..

[qiphlow]

is your art related to yiquan (i chuan/dachengquan)? or is it completely different?
would you characterize it as an "internal" art?
just curious, as i've not heard of YiLiQuan before--it sounds interesting.
thanks in advance for your answers, O Great Dark Lord;) .
(sorry for the last comment, i just couldn't resist! i've been reading your internet battle with johnny.)

[YiLiQuan1]

is your art related to yiquan (i chuan/dachengquan)? or is it completely different?

Not related at all. Yiliquan translates as "One Principle Fist/Boxing," as opposed to the "Intent/Mind Fist/Boxing" that I understand Yiquan means...


would you characterize it as an "internal" art?

That's a curious question, one that doesn't have a solid answer... It "is" internal as fully 75% or more of our training is on Xingyi, Taiji, and Bagua, but we don't make a big distinction between "internal" and "external" as in the final analysis, when done properly, both classifications yield similar results.

Now, to head off comments that "well, that's not really internal then," we tend to adhere to the belief that the internal/external or hard/soft classifications were Sun Lu-tang's personal joke on the neijia community of the time, and unfortunately the terms stuck. We do the same internal work that "internal" styles do, we just don't use those terms when referring to what we do... Does that make sense? :confused:


just curious, as i've not heard of YiLiQuan before--it sounds interesting.

Unfortunately, we aren't very big anymore... We used to have a lot more students, but as people progress in our system the training gets more and more demanding... We hit hard, we hit for real, we don't use much in the way of protective gear, we "call 'em like we see 'em" and we don't cater much to egos, so unfortunately some of our students opt to look elsewhere. We're okay with that, since we're more concerned with quality than quantity, but it makes it hard for folks to learn about us.

Our teacher, Sifu Phillip Starr, just wrote a book (available at your local bookseller, or through Amazon) called "The Making of a Butterfly." It's his first book, and is a collection of stories about his training under his teacher, Sifu Chen Wing-chou.


thanks in advance for your answers, O Great Dark Lord;) .
(sorry for the last comment, i just couldn't resist! i've been reading your internet battle with johnny.)

You are most welcome (*cue deep, respirator breathing...*)

[qiphlow]

thanks for your thorough reply, yiliquan. any groups practicing your art in san francisco or the bay area, or any videos available on the web? it'd be nice to see this in action. i'll look up the book you mentioned.

[monkeyfoot]

whats there to say.

The big blacky sperm like thing likes to run in circles with a big white sperm like thing...

lol as long as I understand it then im not at all bothered if you do :cool:

craig

[YiLiQuan1]

thanks for your thorough reply, yiliquan. any groups practicing your art in san francisco or the bay area, or any videos available on the web? it'd be nice to see this in action. i'll look up the book you mentioned.

Nope, nobody in SF is doing Yili that I'm aware of...

As for video, none of that either, though I'm hoping to put together some small clips soon.

The book, though a great read, isn't a technical manual, so it doesn't do much in the way of teaching technique.

Depending on your finances, we have our annual seminar taught by Sifu Starr the first weekend in October... Very inexpensive (the fee this year hasn't been set, but the past years have been less than $50 for the whole day of training, and we have "private" training that often has non-association members present anyway...), plenty of info. Just a thought...

[imperialtaichi]

Greetings..

they found a graphic representation of a simple principle.. the dynamic interplay of contrasting principles, or.. "change"...



And that you cannot have one without another; like can't have up without down, fast without slow, hot without cold etc.... that everything in the universe has yin and yang.

Plus, in terms of power generating, the True Yang (the "fish eye") lies within the Yin. Hence to cultivate true power one must seek through the Yin, not the Yang.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

nicely put John!

Speaking of how are do you exacute a strike, is your body loose?

Gaz

P.S check you PM matey!

[fiercest tiger]

Hi cjurakpt

What style of taiji are you learning?
regards
Garry

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Johnny,

What your naivety hasn’t taught you yet about life is that one man’s gold is another man’s pile of $hit! The world is not here to conform to what you want it to be. You do not understand that yet and that is why you are confused that you and your thoughts are not given the respect you think are deserved. You haven't said anything all that profound to many people. To some it is bunk, to others it is new and interesting and to others it is something they have already learned, thought of, or discarded years ago.

Just because something is special to you does not mean it has to be special to everyone else. There are nearly 6 billion people on the planet, not everyone sees the world through the same perspective that you do.

Just because others do not agree with your perspective does not make it without value, and like wise, just because the world agrees with you does not make your view special. It is just one view and it works for you. Go ahead and share your thoughts and views, but accept that others will not agree, that is part of the BB world.

[CFT]

And that you cannot have one without another; like can't have up without down, fast without slow, hot without cold etc.... that everything in the universe has yin and yang.

Plus, in terms of power generating, the True Yang (the "fish eye") lies within the Yin. Hence to cultivate true power one must seek through the Yin, not the Yang.

Cheers,
JohnI was wondering when someone would write on this aspect. To me this is one of the most profound aspects to the taiji diagram. So is there a "True Yin" equivalent and what does it mean in martial terms?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The Taiji Symbol is the "finger pointing at the moon".. no doubt, we can derive endless meanings from its graphics.. but, i think it's telling us to "seek the balance".. notice its symetry, its balance..

Hence to cultivate true power one must seek through the Yin, not the Yang.While i understand this notion intellectually, it is my experience that nudges me back to the balance.. "true power" is manifested according to situational requirements, not a set pattern.. it is having the familiarity with the Yin/Yang relationship and the experience to utilize that relationship according to demands.. Yin/Yang and the multitude of contrasting principles are two sides of the same coin. To favor one over another is to cause imbalance. The "favor" we perceive regarding Yin over Yang is simply a signature of our usual imbalance which historically favors Yang. That is to say that most people have difficulty embracing their "dark" side or their feminine aspects.. but, it is what we are, we ARE both Yin AND Yang, and the implication to favor Yin is simply a "finger pointing" to balance, pointing to an inherent imbalance of excessive Yang attributes..

Alan Watts reminds us that too often we fail to simply see things for what they are, we begin the deceptive analysis of "thinking".. My mentor used to say,"don't think, FEEL".. What "feeling" do you get when you observe the Symbol"?

Be well..

[B-Rad]

That is one reason why I learned kung fu. To stop those bad kinds of people who always seemed to want to hold me down or keep me back.
You attract these people through your behavior though (at least in this case). While I think the thread has some interesting comments aside from the attacks, you opened with an insult to another member of the forum. It gaurantees you're going to get a number of very negative reactions on this thread. Whether the guy deserved it or not, you chose to bring some personal issue into an otherwise fine question.

Anyway, my view of the symbol would probably be closest to TaiChiBob's views on seeking balance out of life. While I'm not a philosopher by any means, I think it can lead to or show itself in a variety of ways in martial arts, though not allways in the same ways. For example, someone who does a very hard style of training where they beat the body up on a consistant basis might do qigong and other practices to help counter act the damage they do to themselves and extend their careers. Or use meditation to counteract negative effects of being over stressed mentally and physicaly, or keep from carrying over agression into other areas of their life where they don't need it. In taiji sometimes I see soft qigong mixed right into physically demanding forms rather than as seperate practices. The yin-yang symbol can be used to express a variety of things from very simple obvious ideas, to more complex philosophy :) There's no right or wrong answer though. As an artist, I find that people will often derive very different meanings from those intended in pictures and symbols from those originally intended, but that's fine (unless you're teaching history :p).

[RAF]

The symbol is based on emprical observation and illustrates a universal cycle. If you can derive the 5 elements (wu Xing) from these movements, you know how to take care of yourself and also know how to combine movements to generate a logic for fighting and application usage.

The generating cycle of the 5 elements, drawn from the Yin/Yang symbol, cited earlier indicates what patterns are in synch and what patterns are out of synch in order to remain in balance---this can go from eating, exercises, optimal times etc. etc.

The destructive cycle, if you know the relationship of the element to posture and body part provides a logic for striking and attacking organs, body parts, directions etc. etc. If you believe in dian xue and points, then it will tell you what points to strike at, in what season, and what time of day in order to optimize damage

Again this all derives from the Yin/Yang symbol and its relationship to universal movement as cited in the reference I earlier provided.

Do you need this much explanation to fight well? No, you only need a system that incoporates it in both postures and movement. Its in your taiji, bagua, xing yi, baji and probably a few more systems I don't know of.

[Anderzander]

Its something like, the transformation of one thing into another through a dynamic equlibrium.

big concepts into small simple words, is a difficult thing :-) to do that you need to know your audience....

[YiLiQuan1]

Johnny, you have yet to either:

a) say anything with any actual content, or

b) respond with answers to any of the questions asked of you (e.g. who have you trained under, where, how long, what style, etc.).

Until you do so, you really shouldn't expect anyone to take your BS posts seriously. Further, your failure to deny that you are, in fact, the same bizarre member who posted, and was banned, a year ago implies that that accusation may well be factual.

You're a troll of the highest order, deluded and self-righteous. I suspect that you are the "fluff head," gleaning all your information from books and movies (as opposed to actual training).

It's quite a bit of fun to watch how you dig deeper and deeper holes for yourself... Every word you type just makes you look worse than you already do.

[imperialtaichi]

So is there a "True Yin" equivalent and what does it mean in martial terms?



Hello Chee,

Good question. To be honest, I don't know...

All I know is a saying "Yi Yang bu jin ren bu si, yi Yin bu jin bu zhen xian" which means "a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted." (I think it's originated from Zhong Nan San Chuen Zhen Pai Lung Men, but don't quote me on that.)

Scott, TCB, Omarthefish, anyone?

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

One of my personal criteria for evaluation of matters such as the Yin/Yang symbol is longevity and timeless application.. The symbol seems to maintain its simplicity while being applicable at so many levels over millenia of time, that says much about its value.. Like the Tao Te Ching, the principles are nearly universal in their interpretations.. but, i keep the perspective that the meanings we assign to the symbol are only interpretations.. the creator(s) didn't leave instructions, cryptic or otherwise..

"a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted."As an example, the quoted phrase served its purpose in the time it was authored, but.. with current knowledge and an understanding of such things as biology, physics, and subtle inner workings of the human energy fields, we can better understand the phrase's implications, and its misconceptions.. we know that extremes are harmful, that if Yin is depleted the unbalance would be irreversable.. there is clearly the implication from the symbol that there is always Yin within Yang and vice versa.. Yin/Yang are inseparable, as they exist only by comparison to each other..

I sense that it is the simplicity of "feeling" the symbol's meanings that adds the value of timelessness to it.. that the more we attach interpretations of past or current limits of knowledge we actually degrade some of that value..

A great challenge put to me was to let go of "words" and mental chatter and just observe the symbol's relationship to "Life".. it was difficult not to look at the symbol and attach the meanings and words i had spent years contemplating.. but, when i did, finally, the power of its simplicity was overwhelming.. the brilliance of its creator(s) shone brightly.. as my friend once pointed out, plants do not need to know and understand the properties of sunlight to grow.. the symbol, like sunlight, will affect each of us according to our needs.. and, by interpretative analysis, we distance ourselves from the symbol's ability to directly transmit a simpler but more profound message.. Try observing the symbol as a Mandala, an object of focus in meditation.. understanding that, ultimately, the point of meditation is to suspend rational thought and to simply experience things "as they are".. it is from this perspective that "truth" is revealed.. contriving cryptic meanings or attaching personal preferences hides the "truth", it paints it in our favored prejudices.. By simply observing the nature of the symbol, we keep its timeless quality..

Be well..

[cjurakpt]

Hi cjurakpt

What style of taiji are you learning?
regards
Garry

I practice an older (I was told "pre-Beijing") version of what whold be typically referred to as Yang family, although my teacher's (Master Sat Chuen Hon - www.dantao.com) teacher (Master Ham King Koo) always referred to it as Wu Dang Internal Work Tai Chi. Difference-wise, it has several moves in it that other Yang I have seen doesn't, the flow of the form is a bit different (hard to explain, easy to see), we also still do the jumps, spins, low spinning / high jumping kicks at an advanced level; also, the names of some of the moves are translated differently (e.g. - Dan Bin = Cinnabar Transformation, versus Single Whip) or are different in general (e.g. - instead of Cloud Hands [wan sao], it's called Bear Walk [hung haang]);

[Scott R. Brown]

Hello Chee,

Good question. To be honest, I don't know...

All I know is a saying "Yi Yang bu jin ren bu si, yi Yin bu jin bu zhen xian" which means "a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted." (I think it's originated from Zhong Nan San Chuen Zhen Pai Lung Men, but don't quote me on that.)

Scott, TCB, Omarthefish, anyone?

Cheers,
John

Hi John and Chee,

There is a somewhat Hsien Taoist perspective that states one must have a specific amount of Yang or excess Yang in order to become immortal. From this perspective one must have a large store of Yang in their tan tien and then harmonize their Yin energy with their Yang energy. According to this perspective there is such thing as Absolute Yang and Absolute Yin energies. Yin energy cannot be felt since it is insubstantial, but may be sensed according to the effects it implies when interacting with the Yang energy. If one cannot store a sufficient amount of Yang and harmonize it with the Yin properly they cannot become physically Immortal. According to this view, material bodies are Yang, therefore one requires excessive Yang to be stored in order to preserve the body or a manifestation of it after physical death.

From a certain perspective one could label something as Absolute Yin or Absolute Yang, but from another perspective one could say it is not so. Let us take light as an example, light is Yang energy. From one perspective it is always Yang; darkness would always be Yin. But as we know Yin and Yang occur only as dynamic contrasting phenomena, without one we cannot have the other. If we take a light bulb and contrast it with sunlight, the light bulb is Yin to the sunlight’s Yang. While both are classified as Yang energies since they are both light in contrast with each other, one is Yin and the other Yang. Therefore, the light from the light bulb is either Yin or Yang according to the context with which we are contrasting it. This is actually a very good illustration of the principle: Yin IS Yang and Yang IS Yin!

[Tingjid]

From a certain perspective one could label something as Absolute Yin or Absolute Yang, but from another perspective one could say it is not so. Let us take light as an example, light is Yang energy. From one perspective it is always Yang; darkness would always be Yin. But as we know Yin and Yang occur only as dynamic contrasting phenomena, without one we cannot have the other. If we take a light bulb and contrast it with sunlight, the light bulb is Yin to the sunlight’s Yang. While both are classified as Yang energies since they are both light in contrast with each other, one is Yin and the other Yang. Therefore, the light from the light bulb is either Yin or Yang according to the context with which we are contrasting it. This is actually a very good illustration of the principle: Yin IS Yang and Yang IS Yin!

Out of curiosity wouldn’t it be more apt to say that the light bulb and the sun are both yang but are merely different magnitudes of yang? From our perspective they’re the same thing, they’re both light, they’re not opposing or opposite, they both go in the same direction just to widely varying degrees.

So using the same analogy would you say that a glass of water and an ocean of water are yin and yang or are they both yin but to different magnitudes?

Truthfully this question stems from my inability to fully grasp yin yang theory, my Sifu always laughs when he sees the look on my face when he starts talking about yin yang theory. :) I suppose I need another few decades of training :rolleyes:

[qiphlow]

ultimately, no yin and no yang

[Anderzander]

Truthfully this question stems from my inability to fully grasp yin yang theory, my Sifu always laughs when he sees the look on my face when he starts talking about yin yang theory. :) I suppose I need another few decades of training :rolleyes:

I don't know if this is any use - but one of the things that helped me understand the symbol was realising that it is dynamic not static. It should be moving.

Imagine two immiscible liquids, like oil and water, in a round bowl. If you then span the bowl generating a centrifual force that moved the liquids out into the shapes they are on the diagram. Taiji is created by movement.

The other thing is to think that as one think ascends the other descends - but always keeping a balance. Internal movement of weight and mind within the body create empty and full within yourself - when you can give up yourself and synchronise with your partner you can meet his fullness with emptiness and you can blend with his movement and channel his fullness back to him.

Thats the transformation.

hth

[brucereiter]

I don't know if this is any use - but one of the things that helped me understand the symbol was realising that it is dynamic not static. It should be moving.

Imagine two immiscible liquids, like oil and water, in a round bowl. If you then span the bowl generating a centrifual force that moved the liquids out into the shapes they are on the diagram. Taiji is created by movement.

The other thing is to think that as one think ascends the other descends - but always keeping a balance. Internal movement of weight and mind within the body create empty and full within yourself - when you can give up yourself and synchronise with your partner you can meet his fullness with emptiness and you can blend with his movement and channel his fullness back to him.

Thats the transformation.

hth

hi people ...

good post from Anderzander ... below is a bit of my current/evolving understanding of the taiji symbol.

a definition of tai chi

tai chi = catalyst (im·pe·tus) for change

catalyst=
one that precipitates a process or event,
especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences:

for= intended to be used or received by; because of

change= make or become different
to give a completely different form or appearance to; transform:
to give and receive reciprocally; interchange: change places.
==================================================
wuji is the state of nothingness

movement is the catalyst from wuji to tai chi.

movement causes yin and yang to combine and create tai chi

as soon as movement begins yin and yang are separated/differentiated, and that creates tai chi

tai chi represents the transition from hard to soft and soft to hard with each maintaining a small amount of the other.

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks TCBob and Scott for your insight. This is a good thread.

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Out of curiosity wouldn’t it be more apt to say that the light bulb and the sun are both yang but are merely different magnitudes of yang? From our perspective they’re the same thing, they’re both light, they’re not opposing or opposite, they both go in the same direction just to widely varying degrees.

So using the same analogy would you say that a glass of water and an ocean of water are yin and yang or are they both yin but to different magnitudes?
Hi Tingjid,

It isn’t really a matter of whether it is apt or not, it is a matter of perspective. Your view is valid from a specific perspective. Just as the view of Absolute Yin and Absolute Yang are valid from their perspective and that light from a light bulb is Yin in contrast to the light from the sun being Yang. All are correct according to the perspective with which we view the phenomena, but none of them can be considered "Absolutely True" as in, True under all circumstances. They are true only according to the specific context or perspective from which they are viewed.

What is important for us is that we do not limit our perspective. To limit our perspective is to limit our understanding of the principles of Tao.

[omarthefish]

Hello Chee,

Good question. To be honest, I don't know...

All I know is a saying "Yi Yang bu jin ren bu si, yi Yin bu jin bu zhen xian" which means "a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted." (I think it's originated from Zhong Nan San Chuen Zhen Pai Lung Men, but don't quote me on that.)

Scott, TCB, Omarthefish, anyone?

Cheers,
John

I' ve never heard that saying before but bases on the context and translation it sound like you would write it like this:

以阳不尽人不死; 以阴不尽人不成仙


I know that the last two characters don't match perfectly with the pinyin you gave but "zhen xian" doesn't match linguistically so I am guessing that you just misread or misheard the second to the last character readin "cheng" as "zhen" Otherwise I read it:

以阳不尽人不死; 以阴不尽人不真仙

But my comment is not on that last bit anyways. I think the part more relevant to the quote AND to the discussion is the use of the word "jin"/尽 which you tranlsated as "deplete" and I think that "deplete" is a deceptive choice.

The word "jin" CAN have that meaning but it also has other more nebulous meanings like "the end" or "complete". The common thread between "deplete", "complete" and "end" and the other things that "jin" could mean is that they are all variations on the theme of something being carried out to the final extremety. So yin or yang do not have to be "depleted". In fact they could be expanded or developed in order for a "man no not die" or for a person to "achieve immortality". In fact, it could be the opposite. It could be a matter of them following their natural course out to the end.

In the basic theory of the taiji, that's what happens. Yang does not necessarily have to get depleted to produce yin. Yin is also produced by an excess of yang. Like inhaling. You are not forced to exhale because the air you inhaled it gone. It's because you have inhaled as far as you can. Throw something up in the air (yang) and it comes down (yin) when the point of MAXIMUM yang has been reached (the highest point in the arc).

Getting back to the context of the quote again, which seems to be a comment on personal cultivation, in seeking a balance between yin and yang in the body, you could deal with excess yang by dampening it or by "depleting" it or you could deal with that problem by "adding" or tonifying/strengthening yin.

So like .....uh....."jin" often represents and extreme as opposed to a lack.

[mantis108]

I believe the Chinese characters would be the following:

一陽不盡人不死﹐一陰不盡不真仙

Zhen Xian is "real" or "authentic" immortals. Long Men Pai is a rather famous sect of Chuan Zhen Jiao (roughly translated as complete truth religious teachings/school) which IMHO is a cross between philosophical and religious Daosim. The idea of immortal is pretty ancient and unique in Chinese although I believe in some ways it could be compared to the "Sage" in most Hindu tales. To understand this phase, we have to bare in mind a few things IMHO:

1) We have to understand the Chinese or rather Daoist Pantheon. There are the Gods who were pretty much any force of nature and they were "born" or "created" as supernaturals that hold specific functions (ie rain, thunder, harvest, war, etc). They are governed the same way as the dynastic courts. Gods can be reincarnated as humans and when the human form dies (of a great task or service to the country) the spirit of the God returns to His/Her post in heaven, earth or even hell. Some times their human form (ie Kwan Kung) would be cannonized as Saint by the Emperors, who are considered the Sons of Heaven.

2) Immortals (Xian) basically has 2 groups. One group is those who were born or created since the dawn of time (ie Tai Shang Lao Jun, Taiyi Zhenren, etc). The other group is those who were born as human but work diligently through the Daoist teachings. Group two is what the phrase is about. In group two, there are also 2 types of immortals. One type is known as Liu Di Xian or Di Xian (earthly immortal). They are pretty much like the Buddhist counter part - Luohan. They retain their human forms and practically live "forever". But it's not the ideal of Daoists in general. The second type is Zhen Xain (real and athentic immortal) which is what the phrase refers. Zhen Xain is Zhun Yang Wu Yin (Pure Yang without Yin) basically non dualistic in nature in layman's term.

Hope this make sense.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[omarthefish]

That's the same characters I put up there actually. You just confirmed that it is, in fact, "zhen" xian as opposed to "cheng" xian.

If that is the case then you'd have to change the translation presented from "a person would not become immortal" as suggested by imperial to "a person is not a real immortal.

My point about the meaning of the character "jin" remains.

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks Omarthefish and Mantis108 for your comments. I am refering to the phrase translated by Mantis. I apologise for my sometimes inability to present the phase phoenetically correct.




Zhen Xain is Zhun Yang Wu Yin (Pure Yang without Yin) basically non dualistic in nature in layman's term.



Yes, that's why a lot of top Daoist/Martial artists goes by the name with the word "Yang" in it: e.g.

Chong Yang Zhen Ren (Double Yang Real Human/Immortal) who founded Chuen Zhen Pai; and
Zi Yang Zhen Ren (Purple Yang Real Human/Immortal) who wrote many Daoist text.

And in many texts I have read about methods to cultivate Zhen Yang... but I cannot recall any that descibes methods to cultivate Zhen Yin? Yet in acupuncture/Chinese medicine we always talk about balancing Yin and Yang?

In my own quest I seek Zhen Yang for martial arts, while balancing Yin and Yang for health....

???

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi John,

In the previous system of Hsien Taoism I have mentioned (They don’t actually call it Taoism or Hsien, they consider it a form of MA, but the processes they use are identical to Hsien Taoist practices.) teach that power comes from Yang energy, but to have truly super human abilities including immortality, one must integrate the Yin energy with the Yang energy. The problem they state is that you cannot sense or cultivate Yin energy directly since it is insubstantial. I postulate therefore, that when one stores Yang energy in the tan tien it attracts Yin energy as a natural consequence. They teach in this system that one must learn to sense the Yin energy by sensing its effects on the Yang energy and then integrate the two. I find this interesting however, it seems to me that Yang will always attract Yin and, if allowed to, the two will integrate naturally, of themselves. If we cultivate Yang without allowing Yin to integrate this will cause an imbalance of energies and I cannot see that as being a good thing!

[David Jamieson]

OK. Now that I have determined that YiLiQuan1 is a hopeless case, I can stop wasting time on him and hopefully deal with the rational and curious people.

The Yin Yang sign is famous in Asian philosophy and martial arts. We have many people here that claim to know lots and lots about martial arts. People who can write 5 inches of sentences per post.

For me though, these people usually never say anything. They repeat buzzwords and things they read in a book, weave it together with their own style of writing, then behaving as if they have told you something.

I don't get it. I get lots and lots of words that have no meaning to me because I did not grow up in chinese culture. I don't know what all that stuff means.

When I ask them to boil it down to english that is understandable, for some reason they cannot. "It is too complicated".

Baloney. Nothing about kung fu is complicated. Anyone can explain it in plain english to anyone else if they want to. Or if they actually have the knowledge to.

To prove my point I have a very simple question or challenge. Say something useful and meaningful about the Yin Yang sign. You cannot say "Yin is soft and Yang is hard". A gradeschooler knows that. You must provide some honest kind of insight into what the Yin and Yang sign signifies or teaches or implies.

Don't be afraid. Put your reputation on the line. I am. You have nothing to lose if you really do know kung fu. You only have something to lose if you have self doubt about your own knowledge.

Come on. Don't be shy. Let's stop all the name calling and game playing and get down to the interesting stuff. Say something simple but meaningful about the Yin Yang sign in plain english that anyone, even a teenager, can understand.

lol. It's funny that you post this and then look at some of the replies. They are very complicated and cryptic. No offense to those who wrote that stuff, but the riginal question asked for a simple explanation. I would like to attempt.

Yin/Yang is symbol made of two significant aspects. It is however only One thing (a symbol, self contained).
It points to the dual nature of everything and symbolizes that duality that is contained in each of us and in all things. Even in the world around us, day/night, man/woman, left/right, up/down, and so on and so on. It is also representative of other dualistic concepts such as cause and effect, but most of all it is a sign or an indicator of the dualistic nature and quality of all things.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

was that simple enough? :p

[Anderzander]

He also said:


You cannot say "Yin is soft and Yang is hard". A gradeschooler knows that. You must provide some honest kind of insight into what the Yin and Yang sign signifies or teaches or implies.

So perhaps yours is too simple? and perhaps doesn't provide anything useful to a martial understanding of Yin Yang that a teenager could understand.


Its tough to judge what people have posted thought because of other Agenda's that seem prevalent and people not attempting to address the question, rather just talking around it.

[cam]

Simple answer
Tai Chi Bob already gave it.
Change
It can't get any more simple!

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Cjurapt,

Thanks for the website very informative sorry for the late reply! :o

That dragon taiji sounds interesting indeed...

thanks mate!
Garry

[cjurakpt]

your welcome; glad you enjoyed the website - you might also run across his book in a store every now and then; also, he just premiered a movie in NYC entitled Taiji: Chaotic Harmony - it's being reviewed in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of MA; Master Hon is an interesting guy - grew up on the streets of NYC C-town, got out, attended Princeton, meandered around, and here he is...

BTW, a general observation: it is to the credit of this forum and testament to the quality of its membership, that what started out as some sort of semi-troll post has evolved into a very substantial discussion that, aside from one non-sequitor post about cyber bullying (boo hoo), the thread's originator as all but disapeared from (probably he just couldn't keep up...);

[fiercest tiger]

Our Chi is too pure bro!!!

Ill look out for his book and movie....

regards
Gaz:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The general problem is that people project meanings onto the symbol.. rather than let the symbol project the principles outward.. Rather than look for meanings in the symbol, i try to find the principles in whatever situation i am facing, the symbol is a reminder.. If people discect the symbol searching for meaning, it is like chewing on "the finger pointing at the moon"..

Be well..

[matt]

meaning of the double fish diagram
first it is represented by two fish swimming around each other the spot it there eye they tend to look at each other.
2nd the diagram was taken on by tai chi because it was a nei jia art all nei jia arts relate to the double fish diagram becasue the origanal movement of the art was a patten from that when done properly makes the arms look like a fish if you know how to view it.

it was a kind of greating. now they have shortened it to the normal hand over fist pattern that you see most places now.

this was the opening movement because one it showed you knew kung fu and two because someone that didnt know kung fu would not recognize what it was anyway.

in the particular opening all things had a up down left right closed open state or hence the yin yang of what we know today was displayed.

the art of tai chi uses it in a different manner in tune with traditional magic of china. all though there are some who still manage to know what there doing and dont put it off as something that is like faith

faith the substance of things unseen

thanks

bugg

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


meaning of the double fish diagram
first it is represented by two fish swimming around each other the spot it there eye they tend to look at each other. Do you suppose that the creator(s) relied on their observation of two fish when they created the diagram? or, do you suppose that subsequent observers projected their impressions of fish and movement onto the diagram? Again, i assert that the power of the diagram is its applicability to almost any situation, not in confining it to a particular situation of preference..

Be well..

[cjurakpt]

i assert that the power of the diagram is its applicability to almost any situation, not in confining it to a particular situation of preference..

Be well..

well, I think that's the point: it's a hermeutic of sorts: a dense, rich "text" subject to interpretation both in terms of it's parts and it's whole, which requires some notion of the historical/cultural context as well as the psychological dimension of the "authors"; the symbol illustrates a general principlewhich can, by necessity, be applied in many ways beyond what the "creators" may have had in mind - if life is change at it's core, if the processes of change act upon us temporally, morphologically, ontologically, etc., then you will have multiple levels of imagery: two fish swimming, a hurricane turning, sperm penetrating egg, electrons around nucleus, the course of the sun in a day, the seasons changing, etc.

as one interesting example of these processes in nature, check out Theodore Schwenk's book, "Sensitive Chaos" - it shows wonderful examples of vorteces, from rivers, to in utero development, to trabeculae in bone, to formation of shells, flights of birds, etc.; another good one is D'Arcy Thompson "On Growth and Form" for another comparative study in morphological developmet - although very mathematical at times, the point of these relatively western works is to show interellationships in nature that are all excellent examples of underlying yin/yang principles at work

[qiphlow]

i believe it was robert anton wilson who came up with this (i'll paraphrase as best i can): our minds have 2 parts--the thinker and the prover; whatever the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

this is probably in line with bob's assertion that the symbol on it's own has no inherent meaning or value apart from that which the observer of the symbol gives to it.

people will see what they want to see or what they need to see.



(mmmmmm........
......chicken)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings,

Johnny: First, do not attempt to speak on my behalf..

Bob is full of hot air. If you believe him when he says there is nothing in the Yin Yang sign, you are shooting yourself in the foot.What i say is that everything is represented by "applying" the symbol..

Again, i assert that the power of the diagram is its applicability to almost any situation, not in confining it to a particular situation of preference..But you, Johnny, will fall into the category of those that "chew on fingers"..

If people discect the symbol searching for meaning, it is like chewing on "the finger pointing at the moon".. Johnny: What is with the photo interpretation? If you have something to say (though you have provided NO evidence that you do), just say it, man!.. You come into productive conversations with negative commentary criticizing people and yet, you offer NOTHING constructive.. you offer nothing relative to the topic at hand.. you say i am blowing smoke?..

It really bothers me that instead of admitting you have no idea, you tell people there is no such thing. They should just give up becauase there is no point.There's your "smoke", i suggest that people apply the principles to "living".. you would have them compare photos of chicken parts to the diagram.. you and your photos:rolleyes: Now, if you want to be heard, say something, anything, relative to the topic..

Be well..

[cjurakpt]

I assume that by now, Johhny Mnemonic has me on his ignore function, since I've called him on his true identity (Happeh) and he has not 'fessed up; that said, if he actually read my comments of late, I call him out on grounds of bald-faced deception: why won't he admit to his "true" identity? why won't he admit that he has a very specific agenda? why does he keep comming back to a forum where, to a man, people have no interest in his belligerence, his innuendo, his pseudo-scientific theories? he has assumed the role of "eye-opener" when no one asked him to do so in the first place;

Johnny is a snake in the grass - he nips at our collective ankles all the while accusing us of persecuting him for his pains; he's useless, unwelcome, obnoxious and borderline clinical;

why waste time arguing with this troglydyte? he should be re-banned by the mods post haste...

[GeneChing]

JohnnyMnemonic, ironically, this has started an interesting thread, despite your chicken thighs. At this point, I think I'll only respect you if you 'fess with a YHBT. But keep pushing that button and we'll have to push your ban button. It's mostly because I'm getting irritated by the amount of complaints.

The really ironic thing is that it takes two to troll-tango - yin and yang. Sometimes this thread looks like yin yang in action. Sometimes. But back OT, I personally think the symbol speaks for itself. That's why it's such a resiliant symbol. You can analyze it all you like, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see it. You'd have to be a fool not to. Or a troll. ;)

[cjurakpt]

thanks for the timely attention Gene - let's hope JM takes a major chill; he started his latest salvo getting on Three Harmonies' case and got a bit of a rise out of him (can you imagine p-oing Jake? seems like the nicest guy); then he declares Yiliquan1 "evil", me as "unhealthy", Scott B an idiot, TC Bob a blowhard (paraphrasing mine) and chadoury (sp?) "poisoned"; he dangles he's neo-fascist crypticism out there like he's got all the answers, and when you respond with reasoned arguments, he non sequitor's on you, does some psychic psychoanalysis and brands you as the anti-Christ...not to mention that he was banned under his first handle (Happeh) and lately he's been unable to resist the temptation of going back to his "analyze this" penchant, showing photos of people and claiming that they are lopsided because the masturbate...:rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

Don't feed the trolls. ;) Buy more stuff from martialartsmart.com (I called them today BTW but didn't have a pen for a RMA # (doh!))

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Okay, Johnny.. give a penny's worth of knowledge.. enlighten us with "the answer".. you can't! you have made at least 4 attempts to get people to interpret pointless photos, so.. if you can demonstrate any reasoned or enlightened relationship with the photos, do it.. or, be man enough to admit you are just trolling, looking for attention..

You have been challenged time and time again to produce something, anything of worth.. you haven't and you won't.. you will find excuses not to demonstrate your lack.. as an example:

I came here to post that something that I have. Now that you have made threats and insulted me, I suppose I will wait. Threaten and insult me, why should I give you things for free? Remain open minded, stand strong against the haters, and maybe I will change my mind and post what I have.

I am an adult man. Not a cry baby.Really? Wa Wa Wa, nobody likes me! they are all evil haters! Get real, Johnny.. if you got give it, and dispense with the games.. You project such a superior attitude and whine so disgustingly when people don't buy your crap.. "Why would you do that if you are a kung fu man?" Johnny, learn to play with real KungFu people.. be respectful, your MO sucks, that is why no one pays attention to you (aside from the fact that you have yet to offer a single piece of information related to KungFu).. You call us blowhards, but for all the posts you have made, none have had the first bit of substance, NONE!

So, the challenge, Johnny, is put up or shut up.. if you have the answer give it.. if not, move on.. but, i'm willing to bet that you will pick a different option and continue to annoy the good folks that appreciate the value of this forum.. try being a man, Johnny, i know it's a new experience for you.. but try..

You have been challenged to tell us of your training, your teachers, anything that might lend credence to the twisted image you portray on this forum.. you refuse! you whine when people don't play your games, but you don't play theirs, either.. so.. do something useful with your time. Oh, and don't let that nurse keep giving you the placebo, its amusing to her, but annoying the crap out of the rest of us..

Be well...

[GeneChing]

Ha! 'So what' indeed. Welcome to banhood, JohnnyMnemonic. :D

Dang. Now we need another spot of yin in our field of yang to continue this discussion.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Gene: or Hygiene, whatever.. anyway, i can't say it wasn't deserved, but.. i was interested to see if Johnny could produce at least One relevant comment, just One.. but, seeing as we have been labeled "blowhards", it is just as comforting to know that maybe we can get back to our regularly scheduled programs..

So, Gene, what's your take on the symbol? Powerful mystical sacred geometry matrix?.. or, cool graphics.. or, and i love this pun, a cleverly designed "Mnemonic" device..

Be well..

[lunghushan]

Man, Mr. Pneumatic, did you have to attack Gene? He's always so level-headed and nice to everybody on here.

If this were a sparring match, you got WAY over-extended ... and got swept hard.

[GeneChing]

I just got back from a short stay at Esalen Institute, where I got to watch whales breech and blowhard. It was spectacular. I'm honored to be compared to such magnificent creatures.

But as for the taiji (yin yang), I try not to intellectualize it too much. For a while I was expermenting with the permutations. For an early WLE instructional video, KFTC's copy editor Gary Shockley and I worked on rotating one, just to see what it would look like in motion. At that time, I was also looking at the primordial taiji symbols, which tend to have longer 'tails', for lack of a better word. I was also playing with some graphic tweaking of the image, geometrical permutations and different simply ways of generating them. It was amusing but it didn't really lead anywhere. You can get all heady about it, but for me, that's mostly a distraction. When I was initially researching xingyi, I was getting all tripped out by five element theory. That got distracting too, and I try not to get too caught up in it and just practice it. Personally, and this might sound trite, but the yin yang is just too black and white for me. I prefer the triskelion version, and not because of the BDSM connection (http://members.aol.com/quagmyr/emblem.htm). Honest.

[lunghushan]

You people ... get to do these things ...

Esalen must be very dry this time of year.

(He says as he tries to rationalize somebody else getting to visit Carmel, Esalen and the Ventana wilderness, see the ocean and watch whales while he is stuck on conference calls and waiting for software installs to be done).

[cjurakpt]

What is a "YHBT"?

"You Have Been Trolled"

[QUOTE=JohnnyMnemonic;701054]Is that all it takes to control you. Complaints? You mean if I mail you lots of complaints about someone, then register under another 4 or 5 names and mail you complaints from those accounts, you will remove anyone I target?

no, moron - when he gets complaints, he follows up and reads what the person everyone is complaining about has been posting - if he feels there is no merit to the complaints, he posts his decision and why he made that decision;


That sounds like you are giving me your power. Why would you do that if you are a kung fu man?

huh? how is he giving you his power? and what does being a "kung fu man" have to do with that? oh, asking that OBVIOUSLY reveals my own lack of knowledge...


I guess you are easy to control. You have already bought into the evil guys label of "troll". There has been nothing here to justify that label. I try to say something, the bad guys make 5 negative hater posts, and apparently write you 5 complaints from each of their accounts for each post I make. I am prevented from holding a continuous conversation.

no one is preventing you from doing anything - you are the one who, whenever someone responds to you, goes off topic, makes bizzare judgements about the poster and then complains about how it's all pearls before swine...doesn't it occurr to you that after a while, enough people get sick of it and being unable to get you to be more socially appropriate, and so we resort to the next available option: asking a moderator to moderate...


If anyone has a reason for complaint, it is me. Have you received a complaint from me Mr Ching? Of course not. I am an adult man. Not a cry baby. I do not run to mommy looking for help when I have a difference with another man.

no, you just post about cyberbullying...



I try to speak to the man to work it out, or I refuse to speak to him.

so wait, you either speak to him or you don't - so which is it?



And you are the editor of a kung fu magazine? Wow! You just joined Tai Chi Bob on the list of blowhards. If that means you ban me, so what.

so what? well, if you care so little about being here, why not just leave on your own? and, BTW, PUH-LEEEZE don't come back on with another identity - it won't do you any good anyway "Happeh", because we all know your MO and sooner or later your specific style of psychosis will trickle back up to the sirface...


Instead of playing it intelligent and waiting to see what I have,

and waiting, and waiting, and waiting...


you jumped the gun because the haters kept pushing you. You called me names and insinuated I have nothing before ever actually verifiying that I have nothing.

well, everytime someone asks you what you have, you play some BS game, or come up with an excuse for why you don't say anything of substance; you claim superior knowledge but show no evidence of it except by asking people to analyze pictures of sports casters or chicken parts; you insult and belittle people, you criticize them for no reason (e.g. - ranking on the guy who started the post about the 60 push-ups/60 sit-ups per day, insinuating that he is a weakling if he is able only to do that much, when it clearly was a situation where he was trying to find out if that minimal amount of activity could actually make a difference for someone and was asking others to just try it to help him get data - it had nothing to do with his own routine, but you totally misunderstood the whole point and just called his whole practice into question; you're a jerk)


I came here to post that something that I have. Now that you have made threats and insulted me, I suppose I will wait.

yes, please wait - the longer the better...


Threaten and insult me, why should I give you things for free? Remain open minded, stand strong against the haters, and maybe I will change my mind and post what I have.

no, no, please - stick with your original idea of "shut up and wait"

BTW - this should be the ultimate testament of JM's insanity: the old "I was JUST about to tell you, but you made me mad so I won't now"; oh, why, why WHY didn't we just refrain for one more day, since CLEARLY if we had, JM would've revealed his secrets :rolleyes:

of course, later on he writes


I came here to put the answer to what I posted. I wasn't even going to make you sweat. I am so tired of you I was going to give it to you.

so let me get this straight - first he won't give anything away for free, THEN he was going to because he was tired of us - if he's so tired, why not just fogedaboudit?



Why do you want to be a puppet for them?

for the same reason he likes the BDSM insignia...:p ;)



They will never stop until you refuse to do what they say. In every movie ever made, the bullies never stop until the guy stands up to them.

right - they stop, look at the guy standing up to them, kill him, then move on...oh, oh, wait - sorry - that wasn't in a movie - that was real life...


Guys. You clearly have no imagination at all. You are clearly full of fear. You are afraid I know something that you do not. You are afraid to guess because then everyone will see that you do not know.

ok, ok, wait - lemme get this straight - we all afraid that you have something that we don't, but we are too afraid to tell you that we are afraid that you might have something that we don't know...ummmm, how about this: a) we KNOW that you have something we don't know; b) we don't give a rat's azz about what it actually is; c) anything that you know is easily available for public consumption on your WEBSITE (www.happeh.com) where you lay out, in almost mind-numbng detail, the various "theories" that you espouse (e.g. - masturbation will make you gay, crooked and evil)



Instead of being willing to admit you do not know and need to learn, you would rather attack me and drive me off. You would rather pretend the information does not exist.

how about this - maybe we have the information, and we just don't want you to know that, so we play dumb?



Then I see that the bad guys are not happy just posting ****e to me, they have to go cry to the poor man running the forums. He is so harrassed he says negative things to me, I say them back, and the bad guys will probably win. Like they always do.

so, why keep trying? if we always win, that would mean you are an indiot for trying to do anything about it, right?


[QUOTE=JohnnyMnemonic;701054]Preventing people from learning or bombing innocent people around the world, the bad guys always seem to get away with it.

non sequitor - as well as reductio ad absurdum...


You guys are impossible.

yes, yes, that's it, we are: please give up on us - don't come back, either as your current incarnation or as another one...I mean, don't you have enough people to irritate on all the other forums that you post to?

[YiLiQuan1]

anything that you know is easily available for public consumption on your WEBSITE (www.happeh.com)

Well, that's 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back...

If that site really does belong to ol' JM, then I think it's painfully obvious he is the person "afflicted" with something. The so-called "information" provided on that website is the raving of a madman. Many references to something happening, but no actual evidence or information provided.

And the pictures??? Someone must have a tough time going through daily life without seeing all manner of abberations in nearly every photo, video, or graphic representation.

This guy needs serious help, and I'm not just trying to be funny... He's seriously got some issues that need professional psychiatric attention.

[FuXnDajenariht]

im too lazy to read all the posts.

it means life is duality. simple

[Scott R. Brown]

im too lazy to read all the posts.

it means life is duality. simple

It seems that it is a symbolic representation of life as a dualistic unity! It is both One AND Many!

[qiphlow]

c) anything that you know is easily available for public consumption on your WEBSITE (www.happeh.com)

why didja hafta post the website? i feel dirty

[GeneChing]

Thanks cjurakpt, I'll remember that the next time I run out of ballgags. JM is banned. I gave him the YHBT option to come clean, but he failed at that, failed miserably. He has sent me a personal follow-up email that is more of the same. This I find extremely humorous as one of the banned, a rather common and unrepentant reaction from a banned member. The burden of listening to JM's rant is now exclusively mine alone and I feel so priviledged about that. We actually had banned happeh a while ago and typically we ban all the alternative accounts but some how JM slipped through. That oversight is now rectified.

Now what to do with this thread? I propose that since the troll-ugliness is behind us, there's no better revenge but to continue the conversation in a fruitful, productive manner. So let's get back OT.

My big problem with the yin yang is I'm seldom see the world as white or black (maybe that's the result of being Asian :p ). That's why a triskelion works better for me. Actually, if you look at my article The Traditional Art of 5 Elements Long Pole (2006 May/June (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=650)) I briefly compared the three internals of taiji, bagua and xingyi based upon a dualism, trialism and pentalism (ok, I made up a few words there, but if you really want to know what I mean, get that issue (http://www.martialartsmart.net/kf200134.html)). What I love about the yin yang is the implied dynamics of the interaction - how the fat part faces the skinny part. Although arguably, a five variable perspective is difficult to juggle. Only the best jugglers can keep five balls in the air.

[lunghushan]

Yeah black/white, male/female is kindof boring. They need to invent a third sex ... (no, not hermaphrodyte or androgynous or transsexual), but a real third sex.

Also, really colored people would be good, not just the current 'colors' which are just melanin pigments, but if they've got jellyfish genes implanted into cats they sure could implant some genes into people's skin. Green people or blue people or purple people would probably make things interesting.

Just think how much safer people would be walking around at night if they glowed in the dark? It would sure make things easier under the covers as well.

[GeneChing]

...most of the guys here on the forum have a hard enough time hooking up with a woman. Imagine if they had to hook up with both a woman and a 3rdsexman. We'd have more members in the lonely hearts club here than we could ever stomach...:rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

...most of the guys here on the forum have a hard enough time hooking up with a woman. Imagine if they had to hook up with both a woman and a 3rdsexman. We'd have more members in the lonely hearts club here than we could ever stomach...:rolleyes:

I guess I was considering it like 3 sexes, 2 ways ... (or 1 way) ... (or 3 ways ... or more).

Like they say bisexuality doubles your chances of getting a date, this would increase it by 13% (66.66 would be possible partners) ...

I guess maybe I'm just bored of people. When are the aliens coming to take over like they promised? Johnny probably knows. :)

[cjurakpt]

When are the aliens coming to take over like they promised? Johnny probably knows. :)

I think he was probably using this forum as a way to signal the mothership...



c)
why didja hafta post the website? i feel dirty


well, I suffered myself reading it, I figure why keep it all to myself?;)



The so-called "information" provided on that website is the raving of a madman. This guy needs serious help, and I'm not just trying to be funny... He's seriously got some issues that need professional psychiatric attention.

actually, in all seriousness, I agree wholeheartedly - this is a prime example of an individual seriously out of touch with reality - the persecution complex is the least of it; th eproblem is that he has compensated so well with his acting out process, that in a million years he'd never realize that his perception of reality is so fragmented that it's a miracle he's able to function at all in life...

[qiphlow]

ok, i don't know why exactly, maybe it's a sick kind of curiosity i've got, maybe a fascination with wackos, but...

...i did a little internet digging on JM/Happeh. he's got a loooooonnnnnnnngggggg internet history of wacky "i'm the only one fit to be human, the rest of you are garbage, why does everyone pick on me" blogs/forum entries/etc. it was both entertaining and sad at the same time.

[GeneChing]

...and this yin yang thread ceases to exist. it returns to void. ;)

[lunghushan]

I would try to start some debate, but I think I'm totally debated out.

Besides, everybody knows that the Yin Yang sign is. It's this Chinese diagram that they put as a patch on Chinese martial arts uniforms when they do taiji. ;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As this thread illustrates, the symbol is simple.. proportional relationships of contrasting colors, intended to inspire introspection of similar relationships within the observer.. but, in the hands of most people, it becomes a contrivance of issues and agendas..

Be well..

[RAF]

Sorry TaiChiBob, I normally agree with most of what you post but I gotta go another route on this symbol:

"What we call a symbol is a term, a name , or even a picture that may be familiar in daily life, yet possesses specific connotations in addition to its conventional and obvious meaning. It implies something vague, unkown, or hidden from us. . . .

Thus a word or an image is symbolic when it implies something more than its obvious and immediate meaning. It has a wider "unconscious" aspect that is never precisely defined or fully explained. Nor can one hope to define or explain it. As the mind explores the symbol, it is led to ideas that lie beyond the grasp of reason. . . .

Because there are innumberable things beyond the range of human understanding, we constantly use symbolic terms to represent concepts that we cannot define or fully comprehend." (Jung, Man and His Symbols, pp. 20-21)
_______________________________________

I am afraid this is the case of the Yin/Yang symbol and why there is so much "confusion" regarding its meaning--that is its nature.:eek:

[mickey]

Greetings,

Those of you who would like a great cinematic representation of Yin ang Yang should take a look at "King of New York." I don't know whether the incorporation of those principles was intentional, but its presence is overwhelmingly there and it may be why that movie remains a classic for that genre. The movie "Sha Po Lang" seemed inspired by this classic.



mickey

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

RAF: I think you may have made my point.. the symbol "inspires" the processes that conceive the myriad of meanings.. the symbol is simple in its ability to inspire.. it is when we project the meanings we have conceived back onto the symbol that we experience conflicting meanings of the symbol.. the conflicts are in our interpretations, not in the symbol.. remember, the symbol is inert without the exploring mind to ponder its implications..

We have no factual intended use of the symbol, like a set of itstructions from its creator(s).. so, we speculate.. we may debate our speculations ad infinitum, but the symbol remains as it was, an inspiration to the speculation.. i think we often mistake our interpretations of an experience for the experience itself.. we each might look at the symbol and find different "meanings", the experience of looking at the symbol is largely identical, but.. the interpretation is uniquely individual..

Rather than saying the symbol means this or the symbol means that, my perspective is that the symbol inspires this or that interpretation.. it has physical characteristics which inspire interpretations..

Supposing you had no eastern infulence, or you showed it to a South American native jungle tribe's man that had no contact with the outside world.. what would its meaning be then?

Be well..

[PHILBERT]

...most of the guys here on the forum have a hard enough time hooking up with a woman. Imagine if they had to hook up with both a woman and a 3rdsexman. We'd have more members in the lonely hearts club here than we could ever stomach...:rolleyes:

ouch man...ouch.

[lunghushan]

The bottom line is, it isn't that they have a hard enough time hooking up with a woman.

It's that they have a hard time hooking up with a woman that they want, when they aren't what that woman wants.

I'm sure most guys on here if they picked some woman a few years older than them, worse looking, and fatter, could probably get one, assuming they aren't a total loser.

[tattooedmonk]

first off......this is not the symbol for Tai Chi.... although it is misused as such...

just like any other symbol it is a way to communicate an idea or thought.....

it represents the greater and lesser aspects of yin and yang( the large white fish being greater yang with the black eye being lesser yin and the big black fish being greater yin with the white eye being lesser yang).....it can be used to explain everything in the universe

for example; birth( lesser yang ),growth ( greater yang ), decay (lesser yin) ,and death( greater yin) ....

.......or spring( lesser yang ) , summer ( greater yang), autumn( lesser yin) , and winter( greater yin)

..it is the symbol for the Four Phases ( Si Xiang)

the Tai Chi symbol is a circle with a spiral in the center.....the yin yang symbol is called liang yi

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is interesting how we project our interpretations on the Taiji Symbol.. as i just did, by calling it the Taiji Symbol.. i projected my values and standards and experiences onto a graphic representation of someone else's ancient concepts.. some people refer to the shapes determined by the contrast of black and white as "fish", but they are not "fish".. they are shapes that can be interpreted as fish.. Some people will "tell" me what the symbol means, but.. i favor "listening" to the symbol and letting IT tell me something.. the beauty of the symbol is that it speaks to everyone appropriately for their situation.. those with particular intentions for martial arts and eastern philosophy will see it in a particular perspective, others will see it differently..

Some people with particular interests in analytical mathematics can derive amazing geometric relationships from the symbol.. some people with interests in Chinese medicine will see the 5 elements, or 8 directions.. But, there is a majority consensus that it represents Taiji, change... lots of people desire to look for deep meanings, to "think outside the box", to be noticed for their creative interpretations, or demonstrate some secret knowledge.. and, that's fine, the symbol has spoken to them according to their needs..

But, i think it is a bit arrogant to assume that anyone's interpretation is absolute.. it is not unlike the Council at Nicaea, where scholars of the time gathered to determine what should included in the book called the Bible.. it is fair to say that much ancient wisdom was lost in that process, the early church was fond of burning rejected documents to ensure their notions were held as "true".. The symbol inspires much wisdom in its undefined graphic expression, why should we try to confine it to a singular "meaning"..

Be well..

[tattooedmonk]

Greetings..

It is interesting how we project our interpretations on the Taiji Symbol.. as i just did, by calling it the Taiji Symbol.. i projected my values and standards and experiences onto a graphic representation of someone else's ancient concepts.. some people refer to the shapes determined by the contrast of black and white as "fish", but they are not "fish".. they are shapes that can be interpreted as fish.. Some people will "tell" me what the symbol means, but.. i favor "listening" to the symbol and letting IT tell me something.. the beauty of the symbol is that it speaks to everyone appropriately for their situation.. those with particular intentions for martial arts and eastern philosophy will see it in a particular perspective, others will see it differently..

Some people with particular interests in analytical mathematics can derive amazing geometric relationships from the symbol.. some people with interests in Chinese medicine will see the 5 elements, or 8 directions.. But, there is a majority consensus that it represents Taiji, change... lots of people desire to look for deep meanings, to "think outside the box", to be noticed for their creative interpretations, or demonstrate some secret knowledge.. and, that's fine, the symbol has spoken to them according to their needs..

But, i think it is a bit arrogant to assume that anyone's interpretation is absolute.. it is not unlike the Council at Nicaea, where scholars of the time gathered to determine what should included in the book called the Bible.. it is fair to say that much ancient wisdom was lost in that process, the early church was fond of burning rejected documents to ensure their notions were held as "true".. The symbol inspires much wisdom in its undefined graphic expression, why should we try to confine it to a singular "meaning"..

Be well..the fact still remains that it is misused to represent Tai Ji ..... this in correct..tai ji is the force that wu ji is divided into to become yinyang ( liang yi or dual polarities)

[omarthefish]

first off......this is not the symbol for Tai Chi.... although it is misused as such...

just like any other symbol it is a way to communicate an idea or thought.....

it represents the greater and lesser aspects of yin and yang( the large white fish being greater yang with the black eye being lesser yin and the big black fish being greater yin with the white eye being lesser yang).....it can be used to explain everything in the universe

for example; birth( lesser yang ),growth ( greater yang ), decay (lesser yin) ,and death( greater yin) ....

.......or spring( lesser yang ) , summer ( greater yang), autumn( lesser yin) , and winter( greater yin)

..it is the symbol for the Four Phases ( Si Xiang)

the Tai Chi symbol is a circle with a spiral in the center.....

:confused:

Maybe in the west but in China they call it "the Taiji symbol".

It's been the symbol for taiji for a loooooong time now.

[tattooedmonk]

:confused:

Maybe in the west but in China they call it "the Taiji symbol".

It's been the symbol for taiji for a loooooong time now.most people from the west and the east call it yin yang first then TaiChi symbol second...this is incorrect and misused and misunderstood by the uneducated in this area.......the Tai Chi symbol is a circle with a spiral in the center

[Scott R. Brown]

The Yin-Yang AND the Tai Chi symbol may be mean whatever anyone wants them to mean and may be applied in any manner they wish to apply them. There is no Inter-Galactic Definition Police forcing a symbol's meaning upon an idiotic populace who are too foolish to know better. Only those who do not understand how symbols (including words, which are merely symbols) and their definitions are determined by societies and groups behave in this manner! Linguists make a point not to impose their personal predjudices upon language.

Defintions change over time and are socially agreed upon according to a society's or group's needs and purposes. There is no ABSOLUTE definition defining any symbol or ABSOLUTE symbol representing any idea.

There may be some confusion created whenever two groups define a symbol differently according to their own needs and purposes. But then, that is what discussions are for; to help clear up confusion and to share differing perspectives with the hopeful benefit of expanding our own understanding!

[tattooedmonk]

The Yin-Yang AND the Tai Chi symbol may be mean whatever anyone wants them to mean and may be applied in any manner they wish to apply them. There is no Inter-Galactic Definition Police forcing a symbol's meaning upon an idiotic populace who are too foolish to know better. Only those who do not understand how symbols (including words, which are merely symbols) and their definitions are determined by societies and groups behave in this manner! Linguists make a point not to impose their personal predjudices upon language.

Defintions change over time and are socially agreed upon according to a society's or group's needs and purposes. There is no ABSOLUTE definition defining any symbol or ABSOLUTE symbol representing any idea.

There may be some confusion created whenever two groups define a symbol differently according to their own needs and purposes. But then, that is what discussions are for; to help clear up confusion and to share differing perspectives with the hopeful benefit of expanding our own understanding!..the symbol it's self can mean just about anything you want it to mean but this does not mean that it is the same as the creator of that symbol had it mind.

This symbol represents a specific idea( an absolute)and when it is misused or improperly interpreted it losses the meaning it originally had and is no longer understood which in this case can be detrimental to understanding the Taoist arts.

To many people take this and other forms of symbolism too lightly and that is why they lack the insight into the higher level of the arts.

nowhere here do I see anyone trying to force others to see anything.

To understand words( symbols) and use them properly we must look at their origin and study them to insure that they are being used properly and are properly understood....

A hammer has an intended purpose and capacity to do a specific job....yeah you can use it as a paper weight but then it is not serving its in tended purpose or fullfilling it's capacity......

[mantis108]

the fact still remains that it is misused to represent Tai Ji ..... this in correct..tai ji is the force that wu ji is divided into to become yinyang ( liang yi or dual polarities)

Your posts do have a point. However, technically, Wuji/Taiji or Wuji -> Taiji -> Liang Yi -> Si Xiang -> Ba Gua, etc implies creation ex nihilo, which is IMHO inconsistent with ancient Chinese view (prior to Han dynasty). Wuji/Taiji is a relatively new development (After Song dynasty).

Mantis108

[Scott R. Brown]

..the symbol it's self can mean just about anything you want it to mean but this does not mean that it is the same as the creator of that symbol had it mind.

This symbol represents a specific idea( an absolute)and when it is misused or improperly interpreted it losses the meaning it originally had and is no longer understood which in this case can be detrimental to understanding the Taoist arts.

To many people take this and other forms of symbolism too lightly and that is why they lack the insight into the higher level of the arts.

nowhere here do I see anyone trying to force others to see anything.

To understand words( symbols) and use them properly we must look at their origin and study them to insure that they are being used properly and are properly understood....

A hammer has an intended purpose and capacity to do a specific job....yeah you can use it as a paper weight but then it is not serving its in tended purpose or fullfilling it's capacity......

Hi tattooedmonk,

Your point of view is well stated. However, the meaning of a symbol doesn't really lose anything according to the misunderstanding of its intended purpose by others. It means to them what they need it to mean at the time. The meaning for them will expand according to their needs.

While a hammer may be designed to hammer nails its usefulness is not limited to that purpose as you have pointed out. While its intended function may not be fulfilled according to one perspective (when it is used as a paper weight) from another perspective it may be fulfilling its full intended purpose according to a different context. When intended as a paper weight it fulfills its full function AS a paper weight.

The purpose or function of any item is the purpose or function we give it. Certainly some things function better than others according to the function they were orginally designed for, but the practical value of the item is determined not by the item itself but by our desire for efficiency of purpose. A hammer hammers nails more efficiently than a rock, but it is only more functional according to my intent. If I need to hammer a nail and my hammer is 100 yards away in the garage, I may consider it more efficient to pick up a handy rock to hammer the nail rather than walk all the way to the garage and back. In this circumstance a rock is more functional according to the context of my desire for efficiency than a hammer and the rock BECOMES a hammer!

[unkokusai]

..

To many people take this and other forms of symbolism too lightly and that is why they lack the insight into the higher level of the arts. ......



Oh brother....:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Hi tattooedmonk,

Your point of view is well stated. However, the meaning of a symbol doesn't really lose anything according to the misunderstanding of its intended purpose by others. It means to them what they need it to mean at the time. The meaning for them will expand according to their needs.

While a hammer may be designed to hammer nails its usefulness is not limited to that purpose as you have pointed out. While its intended function may not be fulfilled according to one perspective (when it is used as a paper weight) from another perspective it may be fulfilling its full intended purpose according to a different context. When intended as a paper weight it fulfills its full function AS a paper weight.

The purpose or function of any item is the purpose or function we give it. Certainly some things function better than others according to the function they were orginally designed for, but the practical value of the item is determined not by the item itself but by our desire for efficiency of purpose. A hammer hammers nails more efficiently than a rock, but it is only more functional according to my intent. If I need to hammer a nail and my hammer is 100 yards away in the garage, I may consider it more efficient to pick up a handy rock to hammer the nail rather than walk all the way to the garage and back. In this circumstance a rock is more functional according to the context of my desire for efficiency than a hammer and the rock BECOMES a hammer!#1) It does lose it's meaning if it is continued to be used improperly and is never used properly. Why use an improper symbol to represent something if there is already one that does represents it properly??

#2)I understand this..... but if it is never used or understood to be more than a paper weight then no one will ever use it as a hammer. It still needs to be used properly to fullfil its capacity. If not it does not live up to it's original purpose then it is forgotten how to use it as a hammer.


#3)the purpose of a hammer is first and foremost to drive nail. if it is no longer used for that it loses it's capacity , intent ,and purpose...If you wanted to buy a hammer to be a paper weight then what you are saying is correct but no one buys a hammer for this purpose nor does someone plan on driving a nail into something 100 yards away and forget their hammer...

.....if they did they would weight out the differences of walking the 100 yards vs. looking for a rock, the fact that they may not hammer the nail in straight, could injure themselves, etc...( which all takes time and effort...more than it would take to go get the hammer)

do you see what I mean????

you should always use the right tool for the job. it will be done properly , more effeciently, will not waste anytime and will not cause any confusion.....

only understanding something for it's original purpose , intent, and capacity can you use it for a myriad of other things...other wise it does not live up to it

[Ronin22]

Hi tattooedmonk,

Your point of view is well stated. However, the meaning of a symbol doesn't really lose anything according to the misunderstanding of its intended purpose by others. It means to them what they need it to mean at the time. The meaning for them will expand according to their needs.

While a hammer may be designed to hammer nails its usefulness is not limited to that purpose as you have pointed out. While its intended function may not be fulfilled according to one perspective (when it is used as a paper weight) from another perspective it may be fulfilling its full intended purpose according to a different context. When intended as a paper weight it fulfills its full function AS a paper weight.

The purpose or function of any item is the purpose or function we give it. Certainly some things function better than others according to the function they were orginally designed for, but the practical value of the item is determined not by the item itself but by our desire for efficiency of purpose. A hammer hammers nails more efficiently than a rock, but it is only more functional according to my intent. If I need to hammer a nail and my hammer is 100 yards away in the garage, I may consider it more efficient to pick up a handy rock to hammer the nail rather than walk all the way to the garage and back. In this circumstance a rock is more functional according to the context of my desire for efficiency than a hammer and the rock BECOMES a hammer!


Ok I get the hammer example but what about something like the $ sign? Isn't it pretty absolute that there is only one meaning? Or could it be something so simple as to one person it means dollars but to another it just means money......

[tattooedmonk]

Ok I get the hammer example but what about something like the $ sign? Isn't it pretty absolute that there is only one meaning? Or could it be something so simple as to one person it means dollars but to another it just means money...... they are the same thing...this is one reason why this symbol invokes so much power..because it means only this!!!...even though people could and have used it like this .... piece of a$$!! and seeing that ......I think how much does it cost!?!?!?

[Scott R. Brown]

Ok I get the hammer example but what about something like the $ sign? Isn't it pretty absolute that there is only one meaning? Or could it be something so simple as to one person it means dollars but to another it just means money......

Hi Ronin22,

“Don't be an A$$!!” ;) I am kidding, but I hope you get my point. The usefulness of anything is only limited by our imagination. I could just as easily have said, “Don’t be an $ss!” In this circumstance I made the “$” equivalent to an “A”. Of course you don’t know that, but symbols have meaning within a personal AND a social context. So let’s say that you and I agree that “$” =”A” When I type to you, “He was an $ss”, it would have a different meaning you than to someone who doesn’t know the meaning of our personal symbol for A$$.

Hi, tattooedmonk,

I disagree with you. What is determined to be the “proper” use of anything is socially determined. What is socially determined varies over time. Yes a hammer is designed for hammering nails, but its usefulness is only limited by ones imagination. It appears you are trying to impose a fixed definition onto a philosophical symbol that is not required by that symbol. It is required by your desire to see a fixed definition used universally. This is the error in your understanding. Your fixed perspective does not allow you to accept any variation of your own personal interpretation. The emphasis here should be on “your own”! You are not the arbiter of any symbols meaning, neither am I or anyone else and neither is tradition. The meaning of symbols changes with the social environment of the time. It is like attempting to fix a thought in time and not allow it to evolve and grow with the needs of individuals and society. The only person this attitude directly affects is your own and you are certainly allowed to limit your understanding and perspective any way you like, but try not to force your self-imposed limitations onto others. It is not fair to them.

[tattooedmonk]

Hi Ronin22,

“Don't be an A$$!!” ;) I am kidding, but I hope you get my point. The usefulness of anything is only limited by our imagination. I could just as easily have said, “Don’t be an $ss!” In this circumstance I made the “$” equivalent to an “A”. Of course you don’t know that, but symbols have meaning within a personal AND a social context. So let’s say that you and I agree that “$” =”A” When I type to you, “He was an $ss”, it would have a different meaning you than to someone who doesn’t know the meaning of our personal symbol for A$$.

Hi, tattooedmonk,

I disagree with you. What is determined to be the “proper” use of anything is socially determined. What is socially determined varies over time. Yes a hammer is designed for hammering nails, but its usefulness is only limited by ones imagination. It appears you are trying to impose a fixed definition onto a philosophical symbol that is not required by that symbol. It is required by your desire to see a fixed definition used universally. This is the error in your understanding. Your fixed perspective does not allow you to accept any variation of your own personal interpretation. The emphasis here should be on “your own”! You are not the arbiter of any symbols meaning, neither am I or anyone else and neither is tradition. The meaning of symbols changes with the social environment of the time. It is like attempting to fix a thought in time and not allow it to evolve and grow with the needs of individuals and society. The only person this attitude directly affects is your own and you are certainly allowed to limit your understanding and perspective any way you like, but try not to force your self-imposed limitations onto others. It is not fair to them.of course you do!!!

...... and if you read again you will see that I agree with you in this regard I understand that the limits should be boundless!! I stated this already....

I am not tryng to do anything other than inform the misinformed. Everything has an original purpose, intent ,and capacity if they do not continue to live up to that capacity , intent, and purpose the myriad of things that it can do will be limited because it is no longer serving it's original function.

there should be no limit as to the degree in which anything is used....

in this case a symbol( or hammer).

However it misrepresents the meaning behind it and invokes a different type of energy......... this is why Tai Ji is misunderstood.

If you stop using the proper tool for the job and start using something else nothing will ever get done properly or efficiantly you can not use a screw driver to hammer a nail ....

do you understand why it is improper to use this symbol to represent tai ji??

Have you even thought to ask me about why I have the beliefs and feelings I do about it ??
No ......you just want to argue with me...... which is just rediculous .

you obviously do not understand where I am coming from and nor do you want to...

fine...

this still does not take away from the original meaning behind it...

which in this case it is being misused....

I will say this again ....this is a big reason why people do not understand tai ji or the symbolism

and $$ looks like SS ..we do not have to discuss it and agree before hand that it = the same thing.....

with the yinyang as well as your..... A = $ it does...here lies the problem

[unkokusai]

The pretentious parade has begun!!!:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi tattooedmonk,

I apologize if I have misunderstood your meaning. Remember one of the purposes of conversation is to clear up the misunderstandings we each bring to the conversation so that we may share our ideas more completely. If you perceive that I am misunderstanding your points then please feel free to elaborate on them. It should not be necessary for me to ask. Please consider the possibility that I did not understand your meaning because of the manner in which you communicated them. It is also possible my own personal prejudices redefined your meaning according to my preconceived notions. It is just as likely it was a bit of both. I am happy to read and learn from your insights. I hope you would afford me the same consideration.

In fact, I still don’t agree with you. I do not believe the taiji symbol more correctly symbolizes the Taoist second stage of creation. This is because Yin and Yang are not absolute characteristics. Since Yin is also Yang and Yang is also Yin, it is appropriate to include a bit of Yin within Yang, and a bit of Yang within Yin to help illustrate this point. This addition to the symbol illustrates more completely this symbolic manifestation of duality. It is what the perceiver brings to the phenomenon that defines the phenomenon. So for example, let us consider the state of COMPLETE ONENESS, next it is divided into a duality we call Yin and Yang. Now let us consider these two phenomena as consciousnesses. To Yin, Yang is the Other, to Yang, Yin is the Other. To me, I am me; to yourself, you are me. Which one of us is ME, we both are according to our perspective. So Yin and Yang occur according to a context.

I may have three bowls of water. One bowl contains 40*F water, the second bowl contains 60*F water, the third bowl contains 80*F water. The question is, “Is the second bowl warm or cool water?” The answer depends upon the context, how we contrast it. When contrasted with the 40*F bowl is it warm. When contrasted with the 80*F water it is cool. Warm is Yang, cool is Yin. Is the 60*F bowl Yin or Yang? It is both at the same time! It is not perceived as one or the other until we contrast it with something else and how we contrast it determines its classification.

So the small area of Yin within Yang, and the small area of Yang within Yin, more completely illustrates this comprehensive understanding of their true states of being. They help to remind us that Yin may also be considered Yang and that Yang may also be considered Yin according to differing contexts.

[tattooedmonk]

Hi tattooedmonk,

I apologize if I have misunderstood your meaning. Remember one of the purposes of conversation is to clear up the misunderstandings we each bring to the conversation so that we may share our ideas more completely. If you perceive that I am misunderstanding your points then please feel free to elaborate on them. It should not be necessary for me to ask. Please consider the possibility that I did not understand your meaning because of the manner in which you communicated them. It is also possible my own personal prejudices redefined your meaning according to my preconceived notions. It is just as likely it was a bit of both. I am happy to read and learn from your insights. I hope you would afford me the same consideration.

In fact, I still don’t agree with you. I do not believe the taiji symbol more correctly symbolizes the Taoist second stage of creation. This is because Yin and Yang are not absolute characteristics. Since Yin is also Yang and Yang is also Yin, it is appropriate to include a bit of Yin within Yang, and a bit of Yang within Yin to help illustrate this point. This addition to the symbol illustrates more completely this symbolic manifestation of duality. It is what the perceiver brings to the phenomenon that defines the phenomenon. So for example, let us consider the state of COMPLETE ONENESS, next it is divided into a duality we call Yin and Yang. Now let us consider these two phenomena as consciousnesses. To Yin, Yang is the Other, to Yang, Yin is the Other. To me, I am me; to yourself, you are me. Which one of us is ME, we both are according to our perspective. So Yin and Yang occur according to a context.

I may have three bowls of water. One bowl contains 40*F water, the second bowl contains 60*F water, the third bowl contains 80*F water. The question is, “Is the second bowl warm or cool water?” The answer depends upon the context, how we contrast it. When contrasted with the 40*F bowl is it warm. When contrasted with the 80*F water it is cool. Warm is Yang, cool is Yin. Is the 60*F bowl Yin or Yang? It is both at the same time! It is not perceived as one or the other until we contrast it with something else and how we contrast it determines its classification.

So the small area of Yin within Yang, and the small area of Yang within Yin, more completely illustrates this comprehensive understanding of their true states of being. They help to remind us that Yin may also be considered Yang and that Yang may also be considered Yin according to differing contexts. The symbol for tai ji is a spiral .It represents the energy forces going out and coming in from the big bang. ( centripetal and centrifugal forces)

This is where the duality exists...

The liang yi ( the so called tai ji symbol)represents the 4 phases or si xiang( strong force, weak force, light force, heavy force).

There is a difference.

The separation and division of these two forces( yinyang) into greater and lesser aspects( like the dividing of a cell) 1->2->4->8 and so on...

at the point when the first separation of this unitary force( wu ji) is divided( becomes bi polar ....tai ji) is where yinyang first appear( ultimate yin and ultimate yang)

so you see tai ji and yin yang and si xiang exist within the symbol but does not best represent the action of tai ji from a wuji state into yinyang

I completely understand what you are saying .........nice analogy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

To illustrate the point i have been trying to make:

The symbol for tai ji is a spiral .It represents the energy forces going out and coming in from the big bang. ( centripetal and centrifugal forces) The originators of the various symbols associated with Taiji had no concept of the "Big Bang" or the "centripetal and centrifugal forces", although they may have identified sensations associated with such forces.. This is a projection of modern concepts on an ancient symbol, and it's inescapable.. you see, even the explanation of "the origins of Taiji symbology" are dependent on our projections of our understandings.. There is no manual for the interpretation of Taiji symbology, written by, or authorized by the creator(s) of the differing symbols.. it is inappropriate to tell others that their interpretation of ancient symbology is inferior to the interpretation that someone else feels strongly about.. it is a quest to define the indefinable..

While someone's explanation of the intracacies of geometric relationships within the traditional "Yin/Yang" (Taiji) symbol may be an intellectually stimulating exercise, i have strong personal doubts that those relationships were the motivating factors for the symbol's creation.. I am familiar with the "spiral symbol", but.. i find no broad historic use of the symbol relative to Taiji or much use of it at all.. The traditional Yin/Yang symbol can be found throughout Chinese art, writings, and symboloic representations, suggesting a broad application throughout the intellectual spectrum.. a common understanding of basic ideas.. contrary to the western notions of complicating things beyond reason.. simplicity has its merits..

Be well...

[tattooedmonk]

Greetings..

To illustrate the point i have been trying to make:
The originators of the various symbols associated with Taiji had no concept of the "Big Bang" or the "centripetal and centrifugal forces", although they may have identified sensations associated with such forces.. This is a projection of modern concepts on an ancient symbol, and it's inescapable.. you see, even the explanation of "the origins of Taiji symbology" are dependent on our projections of our understandings.. There is no manual for the interpretation of Taiji symbology, written by, or authorized by the creator(s) of the differing symbols.. it is inappropriate to tell others that their interpretation of ancient symbology is inferior to the interpretation that someone else feels strongly about.. it is a quest to define the indefinable..

While someone's explanation of the intracacies of geometric relationships within the traditional "Yin/Yang" (Taiji) symbol may be an intellectually stimulating exercise, i have strong personal doubts that those relationships were the motivating factors for the symbol's creation.. I am familiar with the "spiral symbol", but.. i find no broad historic use of the symbol relative to Taiji or much use of it at all.. The traditional Yin/Yang symbol can be found throughout Chinese art, writings, and symboloic representations, suggesting a broad application throughout the intellectual spectrum.. a common understanding of basic ideas.. contrary to the western notions of complicating things beyond reason.. simplicity has its merits..

Be well........you are intitled.....

your lack of knowledge in this subject regarding the chinese understanding of these concepts does not change the fact that they did.you have indicated that your doubt and question is because of your western mind, being emotional ( personal), and for a lack of knowledge in this area.....

the reason why the liang yi has been used instead of a spiral is because it is easily identifialble..if someone sees a spiral they are not going to understand or identify with it .....

.....like I said Tai Ji and yinyang are in the liang yi but it is not the proper representation or symbol used to identify it...

the buddha once said do not believe something because it is written in a book ,or because everyone believes it, because it is said by everyone, or because it is traditon but only believe it if you find it to be useful and true...

[unkokusai]

.....you are intitled.....

your lack of knowledge in this subject regarding the chinese understanding of these concepts does not change the fact that they did.you have indicated that your doubt and question is because of your western mind, being emotional ( personal), and for a lack of knowledge in this area........



Whoo! Somebody open a window, it's gettin' pretty thick in here!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


the buddha once said do not believe something because it is written in a book ,or because everyone believes it, because it is said by everyone, or because it is traditon but only believe it if you find it to be useful and true...That has been my point, all along.. the symbol reveals itself as "useful and true" to the observer.. not at the direction of remote authority, or of intellectually contrived descriptions.. that is its beauty, it is self-evident..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

That has been my point, all along.. the symbol reveals itself as "useful and true" to the observer.. not at the direction of remote authority, or of intellectually contrived descriptions.. that is its beauty, it is self-evident..

Well said Bob! Wish I had said that too! ;)

[tattooedmonk]

Greetings..

That has been my point, all along.. the symbol reveals itself as "useful and true" to the observer.. not at the direction of remote authority, or of intellectually contrived descriptions.. that is its beauty, it is self-evident..

Be well.....that you have missed what is being said.

I believe that I have made myself more than clear.....I am not going to continue to argue about this after this post .....

viewing this symbol you can see the advanced stage of yinyang( si xiang or four phases) not tai ji........tai ji is what gets it to this stage........

this is not the beginning stage( transition from wu ji ) which is tai ji to yin yang...

which is my point .....using this symbol makes it confusing to the observer by complicating it...

you said it yourself .......simplicity has it's merits.

it has been real and it has been fun ...but it has not been really fun!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi tattooedmonk,

Please consider this....it is something I have learned on these BB.

Confusion often arises when we THINK we are being clear with our meaning when we aren't. What we write makes sense to us because we know what we are intending to say, but others do not necessarily understand what we mean. It is not always the audiences fault for not understanding us. This is because there are times we assume we have said things we haven't. Since we know what we are saying it makes sense to us. Our minds tend to fill in the missing information we are implying that we have not actually stated in the post. To us the missing information is obvious and we may not understand why others cannot see it too. This is because we KNOW what we are saying, others do not!

Look for patterns. You have now accused both TCB and I of not understanding what you think you have clearly posted. This is the beginning of a pattern that may indicate that you are not being as clear with your meaning as you think you are.

When we speak we have the benefit of inflection and other forms and manners of speech to add meaning to what we speak. This is missing when we write, but we do not consider this aspect of communication is important to transmit meaning.

Implications do not always translate well on paper. When writing it is always better to be more direct or precise than to imply your meaning. If you agree with someone say it directly and then if you wish to explain why list the reasons you agree. If you disagree say it plainly and then list the specific reasons if you choose. This is clear and direct.

To be honest some of your posts do not make a lot of sense to me. They are not as clear as you intend or think they are. Learning to be clear when writing takes time and I am not claiming expertise in this for myself My posts as you may have noted tend towards long and drawn out explanations. At times I do wonder how anyone understands anything I write, LOL!!

So if you are not being understood, please try not to assume the problem lies solely with your audience. Be patient and perhaps try saying the same thing in another way.

Good Luck!

[tattooedmonk]

Hi tattooedmonk,

Please consider this....it is something I have learned on these BB.

Confusion often arises when we THINK we are being clear with our meaning when we aren't. What we write makes sense to us because we know what we are intending to say, but others do not necessarily understand what we mean. It is not always the audiences fault for not understanding us. This is because there are times we assume we have said things we haven't. Since we know what we are saying it makes sense to us. Our minds tend to fill in the missing information we are implying that we have not actually stated in the post. To us the missing information is obvious and we may not understand why others cannot see it too. This is because we KNOW what we are saying, others do not!

Look for patterns. You have now accused both TCB and I of not understanding what you think you have clearly posted. This is the beginning of a pattern that may indicate that you are not being as clear with your meaning as you think you are.

When we speak we have the benefit of inflection and other forms and manners of speech to add meaning to what we speak. This is missing when we write, but we do not consider this aspect of communication is important to transmit meaning.

Implications do not always translate well on paper. When writing it is always better to be more direct or precise than to imply your meaning. If you agree with someone say it directly and then if you wish to explain why list the reasons you agree. If you disagree say it plainly and then list the specific reasons if you choose. This is clear and direct.

To be honest some of your posts do not make a lot of sense to me. They are not as clear as you intend or think they are. Learning to be clear when writing takes time and I am not claiming expertise in this for myself My posts as you may have noted tend towards long and drawn out explanations. At times I do wonder how anyone understands anything I write, LOL!!

So if you are not being understood, please try not to assume the problem lies solely with your audience. Be patient and perhaps try saying the same thing in another way.

Good Luck!....would it not be easier to ask me what I mean rather than go on and on about it and not getting anywhere??

I would be more than happy to explain anything I have stated.

I understand where I have made mistakes in this thread and in my posts.

I believed that there was a better understanding of Taoism,Yin Yang Theory , Tai Ji Quan, etc. here ........for this I apologize.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Scott R. Brown]

....would it not be easier to ask me what I mean rather than go on and on about it and not getting anywhere??

Hi tattooedmonk,

The problem with this view is that it assumes that others KNOW they don't understand you. That is the point! You assume the audience should be asking you because YOU believe others don't understand. Others may not perceive they don't understand your points until you tell them they are misunderstanding.

I read your posts and try to make sense believing I have understood. It is unproductive to reply by merely stating, "You are misunderstanding! Why don't you ask me what I mean?" Just tell me where I have misunderstood and attempt to restate your thoughts with more clarity. It is that simple!

It becomes your responsibility to clear the confusion once you realize it has occured because the thoughts that are misunderstood are yours to begin with. It is unproductive to bait the audience into asking you to clear up the confusion. They are your thoughts, it is up to you to express them in an understandable manner. You are the one to identify whether your points are being understood by assessing the feedback of the replying posts.

Misunderstanding is not necessarily due to the audience, it could just as well your inadequate presentation of the thoughts in the first place. In either case, whether it is the audience projecting their own predjudices, or your lack of clarity it is still up to elaborate your thoughts if you peceive a misunderstanding is occuring, NOT the audience to ask you too. I accept if the audience knows they don't understand they have a responsibility to ask, but to think something is unclear and then respond according to what one believes the meaning was is not inappropriate.

Presumably it is your desire to be understood. Take responsibility and volunteer the information in order to make your thoughts more understandable.

You point of view is interesting, but we are not a rapt audience waiting to be enlightened by anyone else. We are a group of people who gather to share our thoughts. Each of us has equal responsibility to make our thoughts understood if we perceive they are misunderstood by others.

[unkokusai]

....

I understand where I have made mistakes in this thread and in my posts.

I believed that there was a better understanding of Taoism,Yin Yang Theory , Tai Ji Quan, etc. here ........for this I apologize.

Thank you for your understanding.



Oh, he just keeps gettin' better and better! What a show!



:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Hi tattooedmonk,

The problem with this view is that it assumes that others KNOW they don't understand you. That is the point! You assume the audience should be asking you because YOU believe others don't understand. Others may not perceive they don't understand your points until you tell them they are misunderstanding.

I read your posts and try to make sense believing I have understood. It is unproductive to reply by merely stating, "You are misunderstanding! Why don't you ask me what I mean?" Just tell me where I have misunderstood and attempt to restate your thoughts with more clarity. It is that simple!

It becomes your responsibility to clear the confusion once you realize it has occured because the thoughts that are misunderstood are yours to begin with. It is unproductive to bait the audience into asking you to clear up the confusion. They are your thoughts, it is up to you to express them in an understandable manner. You are the one to identify whether your points are being understood by assessing the feedback of the replying posts.

Misunderstanding is not necessarily due to the audience, it could just as well your inadequate presentation of the thoughts in the first place. In either case, whether it is the audience projecting their own predjudices, or your lack of clarity it is still up to elaborate your thoughts if you peceive a misunderstanding is occuring, NOT the audience to ask you too. I accept if the audience knows they don't understand they have a responsibility to ask, but to think something is unclear and then respond according to what one believes the meaning was is not inappropriate.

Presumably it is your desire to be understood. Take responsibility and volunteer the information in order to make your thoughts more understandable.

You point of view is interesting, but we are not a rapt audience waiting to be enlightened by anyone else. We are a group of people who gather to share our thoughts. Each of us has equal responsibility to make our thoughts understood if we perceive they are misunderstood by others....it stands to reason that if someone does not understand something that they would say so and ask for clarification..... unless , of course,they were not aware that they did not understand....

I find hard to believe that neither of you did not know that you did not understand....

this is where humility comes in...... it appears to me that only ego would stop someone from realizing that they did not understand. it is the responsibility of both parties to clear up the confusion .....I do my part you do yours...agreed??

I was not aware that you did not understand. I am now.

I am not going to force anything on any one.

I was responding to the original poster and got caught up with this ....

......anyway like I said if you want to know what I mean then just ask...

I am not going to just keep putting myself out here if no one wants to know ...

[unkokusai]

...it appears to me that only ego ...




Finally a topic I can believe you are an expert in!!! :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

...

I am not going to just keep putting myself out here if no one wants to know ...




Oh, yes you are.

[Ronin22]

Have fun



Yinyang (yin-yang) is one of the dominant concepts shared by different schools throughout the history of Chinese philosophy. Just as with many other Chinese philosophical notions, the influences of yinyang are easy to observe, but its conceptual meanings are hard to define. Despite the differences in the interpretation, application, and appropriation of yinyang, three basic themes underlie nearly all deployments of the concept in Chinese philosophy: (1) yinyang as the coherent fabric of nature and mind, exhibited in all existence, (2) yinyang as jiao (interaction) between the waxing and waning of the cosmic and human realms, and (3) yinyang as a process of harmonization ensuring a constant, dynamic balance of all things. As the Zhuangzi (Chuang-tzu) claims, “Yin in its highest form is freezing while yang in its highest form is boiling. The chilliness comes from heaven while the warmness comes from the earth. The interaction of these two establishes he (harmony), so it gives birth to things. Perhaps this is the law of everything yet there is no form being seen.”(Zhuangzi, Chapter 21). In none of these conceptions of yinyang is there a valuational hierarchy, as if yin could be abstracted from yang (or vice versa), regarded as superior or considered metaphysically separated and distinct. Instead, yinyang is emblematic of valuational equality rooted in the unified, dynamic, and harmonized structure of the cosmos. As such, it has served as a heuristic mechanism for formulating a coherent view of the world throughout Chinese intellectual and religious history.

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Table of Contents (Clicking on the links below will take you to those parts of this article)
1. Origins of the Terms Yin and Yang
2. The Yinyang School
3. Yinyang as Qi (Vital Energy)
4. Yinyang as Xingzi (Concrete Substance)
5. The Yinyang Symbol
6. References and Further Reading


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1. Origins of the Terms Yin and Yang
The earliest Chinese characters for yin and yang are found in inscriptions made on “oracle bones” (skeletal remains of various animals used in ancient Chinese divination practices at least as early as the 14th century BCE). In these inscriptions, yin and yang simply are descriptions of natural phenomena such as weather conditions, especially the movement of the sun. There is sunlight during the day (yang) and a lack of sunlight at night (yin). According to the earliest comprehensive dictionary of Chinese characters (ca. 100 CE), Xu Shen’s Shuowen jiezi (Explaining Single-component Graphs and Analyzing Compound Characters), yin refers to “a closed door, darkness and the south bank of a river and the north side of a mountain.” Yang refers to “height, brightness and the south side of a mountain.” These meanings of yin and yang originated in the daily life experience of the early Chinese. Peasants depended on sunlight for lighting and their daily life routines. When the sun came out, they would go to the field to work; when the sun went down, they would return home to rest. This sun-based daily pattern evidently led to a conceptual claim: yang is movement (dong) and yin is rest (jing). In their earliest usages, yin and yang existed independently and were not connected. The first written record of using these two characters together appears in a verse from the Shijing (Book of Songs): “Viewing the scenery at a hill, looking for yinyang.” This indicates that yang is the sunny side and yin is the shady side of hill. This effect of the sun exists at the same time over the hill.


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2. The Yinyang School
According to Sima Tan (Ssu-ma Tan, ca. 110 BCE), there existed a school of teaching during the “Spring and Autumn” (770-481 BCE) and “Warring States” (403-221 BCE) periods that bore the name of yinyang. He lists this yinyang school alongside five others (Confucian, Mohist, Legalist, Fatalist, and Daoist) and defines its theory as “the investigation of the shu [art] of yin and yang.” According to him, this school focused on omens of luck and explored the patterns of the four seasons. In other words, the yinyang school was concerned with methods of divination or astronomy (disciplines that were not distinct from one another in early China, as elsewhere in the ancient world) and the calendrical arts (which entailed study of the four seasons, eight locations, twelve du [measures] and twenty-four shijie [time periods]). Just as the Confucians (rujia) arose from the ranks of rushi (“scholar-gentlemen”) who excelled at ritual and music, those of the yingyang school came from the fangshi (“recipe-gentlemen”) who specialized in various numerological disciplines known as shushu (“number-arts”). These shushu included tianwen (astronomy), lipu (calendar-keeping), wuxing (“five phases” correlative theory), zhuguai (tortoise-shell divination), zazha (fortune-telling) and xingfa (face-reading). The Han dynasty chronicle Shiji (Records of the Historian) lists Zou Yan (305-240 BCE) as a representative of the yinyang school who possessed a profound knowledge of the theory of yinyang and wrote about a hundred thousand words on it. However, none of his works have survived.

By the Han dynasty (202 BCE-220 CE), yinyang was associated with wuxing (“five phases”) correlative cosmology. According to the “Great Plan” chapter of the Shujing (Classic of Documents), wuxing refers to material substances that have certain functional attributes: water is said to soak and descend; fire is said to blaze and ascend; wood is said to curve or be straight; metal is said to obey and change; earth is said to take seeds and give crops. Wuxing is used as a set of numerological classifiers and explains the configuration of change on various scales. The so-called yinyang wuxing teaching – an “early Chinese attempt in the direction of working out metaphysics and a cosmology” (Chan 1963: 245) – was a fusion of these two conceptual schemes applied to astronomy and the mantic arts.


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[Ronin22]

continues





3. Yinyang as Qi (Vital Energy)
The most enduring interpretation of yinyang in Chinese thought is related to the concept of qi (ch’i, vital energy). According to this interpretation, yin and yang are seen as qi (in both yin and yang forms) operating in the universe. In the “Duke Shao” chapter of the Zuozhuan (The Book of History), yin and yang are first defined as two of six heavenly qi:

There are six heavenly influences [qi] which descend and produce the five tastes, go forth in the five colours, and are verified in the five notes; but when they are in excess, they produce the six diseases. Those six influences are denominated the yin, the yang, wind, rain, obscurity, and brightness. In their separation, they form the four seasons; in their order, they form the five (elementary) terms. When any of them is in excess, they ensure calamity. An excess of the yin leads to diseases of cold; of the yang, to diseases of heat. (Legge 1994: 580).
Here, yin and yang are the qi of the universe. These qi flow within the natural as well as the human worlds. They are the basic fabric of existence:
Heaven and earth have their regular ways, and men like these for their pattern, imitating the brilliant bodies of Heaven, and according with the natural diversities of the Earth. (Heaven and Earth) produce the six atmospheric conditions [qi], and make use of the five material elements. Those conditions (and elements) become the five tastes, are manifested in the five colours, and displayed in the five notes. When they are in excess, there ensue obscurity and confusion, and people lose their (proper) nature… There were mildness and gentleness kindness and harmony, in imitation of the producing and nourishing action of Heaven. There are love and hatred, pleasure and anger, grief and joy, produced by the six atmosphere conditions [qi]. Therefore (the sage kings) carefully imitated these relations and analogies (in forming ceremonies), to regulate those six impulses…When there is no failure in the joy and grief, we have a state in harmony with the nature of Heaven and Earth, which consequently can endure long. ( Legge 1994: 708).
Thus qi, a force arising from the interplay between yin and yang, becomes a context in which yinyang is seated and functions. Yinyang as qi provides an explanation of the beginning of the universe and serves as a building block of the Chinese intellectual tradition. In many earlier texts, one may observe how yinyang generates a philosophical perspective on heaven, earth and human beings. Chapter 42 of the Laozi says that "everything is embedded in yin and embraces yang; through chong qi [vital energy] it reaches he [harmony].” It is through yinyang’s function as qi and the interaction between them that everything comes into existence. Zhuangzi also speaks about the “qi of yin and yang”: “When the qi of yin and yang are not in harmony, and cold and heat come in untimely ways, all things will be harmed.” (Zhuangzi ch. 31) On the other hand, “when the two have successful intercourse and achieve harmony, all things will be produced.” (Zhuangzi ch. 21)
The interpretation of yinyang as qi conceives yinyang as a dynamic and natural form of flowing energy, a complementary in the primordial potency of the universe. The Huainanzi offers more detailed explanation of the cosmological process of yin and yang:

When heaven and earth were formed, they divided into yin and yang. Yang is generated [sheng] from yin and yin is generated from yang. Yin and yang mutually alternate which makes four fields [wei, “celestial circles”] penetrate. Sometimes there is life, sometimes there is death, that brings the myriad things to completion. (ch. 2)
This process also explains the beginning of human life. When qi moved, the clear and light rose to be heaven and the muddy and heavy fell to become earth. When these two qi interacted and attained the stage of harmony (he), human life began. This shows that everything is made from the same materials and difference relies on the interaction.
Qi also takes on various forms and is convertible from one form to another with order and pattern. The concept of yinyang supplies a unitary vision of heaven, earth and human beings and makes the world intelligible in terms of a resonance between human beings and the universe. The Guoyu (Discourses of the States) describes how earthquakes took place at the confluence of the Jing, Wei, and Lou rivers during the second year of Duke You of the western Zhou dynasty. A certain Boyang Fu claims that the Zhou empire is doomed to collapse, explaining that

The qi of heaven and earth can’t lose its order. If its order vanishes people will be disoriented. Yang was stuck and could not get out, yin was suppressed and could not evaporate, so an earthquake was inevitable. Now the earthquakes around the three rivers are due to yang losing its place and yin being pressed down. Yang is forsaken under yin so the source of rivers has been blocked. If the foundation of rivers is blocked the country will definitely collapse. This is because of the fact that the flowing water and flourishing land are necessities for the people’s lives. If the water and land cannot sustain the people’s living conditions, the country will inevitably fall. (Discourse of the States 1994: 22).
Not only does this ¬yinyang-flavored explanation claim to illuminate natural phenomena, it also implies that there is an intrinsic relationship between natural events and political systems. Human beings, especially political leaders, must align their virtuous actions with the morally-oriented universe. If they follow and harmonize with (shun) the order and patterns of the universe, they will be rewarded with prosperity and flourishing, but if they go against and conflict with (ni) it, they will be punished with disasters and destruction. Whether one engages in shun or ni depends upon whether yin and yang are in a state of balance. Thus, yinyang provides a heuristic outlook for human understanding as well as ethical guidance for achieving harmony in action. As chapter 8 of the Huainanzi claims:
Yinyang embodies the harmony of heaven and earth, manifests the forms of myriad things, contains qi to transform the things and completes various kinds of things; yinyang extends and penetrates to the deepest level; begins in emptiness then becomes full and moves in boundless lands.


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4. Yinyang as Xingzi (Concrete Substance)
Yinyang also has been understood as some concrete substance (xingzhi), according to which yixing and yangxing define everything in the universe. In the Yijing (I-Ching, The Book of Changes), yinyang is presented as xingzhi. Yang was identified with the sun and yin with the moon:

Heaven and earth correlate with vast and profound; four seasons correlate with change and continuity [biantong]; the significance of yin and yang correlate with sun and moon; the highest excellence [zhide] correlates the goodness of easy and simple.(Sishu wujing 1990: 197)
The Guanzi, an important work of the Huang-Lao school, discusses this view along the same lines: “The sun is in charge of yang, the moon is in charge of yin, the stars are in charge of harmony [he].” (Guanzi 2000: 151). This xingzhi interpretation materializes the concept of yinyang in some concrete contexts and shows that the universe is orderly, moral and gendered. The pattern of the world is written in a gendered language. Yinyang is something one can see, feel, and grasp through the senses. For example, in the Liji (Book of Ritual), music represents the he (harmony) of heaven and earth, while li (ritual) represents the order of heaven and earth: “Music is coming from yang, ritual is coming from yin. The harmony of yinyang receives the myriad things.” (Sishu wujing 1990: 525) In the human world, male as yang should be cultivated, otherwise the day will suffer; female as yin should be cultivated too, otherwise the moon will be affected.
According to Dong Zhongshu, (195-115 BCE), both Tian (heaven) and human beings have yinyang. Therefore, there is an intrinsic connection between tian and human beings through the movement of yin and yang. Yinyang is an essential vehicle for interactions between heaven and human beings: “The qi of yinyang moves heaven above as well as in human beings. When it is among human beings it is displayed itself as like, dislike, happy and mad, when it is in heaven it is seen as warm, chilly, cold and hot.” (Dong Zhongshu 1996: 436) In Dong’s cosmological vision, the whole universe is a giant yinyang. One of many examples of this vision is Dong’s proposal to control floods and prevent droughts by proper human interaction. In chapter 74 (“Seeking the Rain”) of his Luxuriant Gems of the Spring and Autumn, Dong asserts that a spring drought indicates too much yang and not enough yin. So one should “open yin and close yang” (1996: 432) He suggests that the government should have the south gate closed, which is in the direction of yang. Men, embodying yang, should remain in seclusion. Women, embodying yin, should appear in public. He even requests all married couples to copulate (ouchu) to secure more yinyang intercourse. It is also important during this time to make women happy. (1996: 436) In chapter 75 (“Stopping the Rain”), Dong alleges that the flood proves there is too much yin so one should “open yang and close yin” (1996: 438). The north gate, the direction of yin, should be wide open. Women should go into concealment and men should be visible. Officers in the city should send their wives to the countryside in order to make sure that yin will not conquer yang. Derk Bodde defines this practice as a “sexual sympathetic magic.” (Bodde 1981: 373)

[Ronin22]

maore


Finally, yinyang also plays a pivotal role in traditional Chinese thought about health and the human body. The early medical text known as the Huangdi neijing (The Yellow Emperor’s Classic of Internal Medicine) provides a detailed account of physiological functions and pathological changes in the body and guidance for diagnosis and treatment in terms of yinyang. Five zang (organs) -- the kidneys, liver, heart, spleen and lungs -- are classified as yin. They control the storage of vital substance and qi. Six fu (organs) -- the gallbladder, stomach, small and large intestines, urinary bladder and triple burner (referring to three parts of the body cavity: the upper burner, which houses the heart and lungs; the middle burner, which houses the spleen and stomach; and the lower burner, which houses the kidney, urinary bladder and small and large intestines) -- are yang and control the transport and digestion of food. The storage is a yin function, and the transport and transformation of substance is a yang function. But the zang and fu organs can be further subdivided into yin and yang. The activity or function of each organ is its yang aspect, while its substance is its yin aspect. Yin should flow smoothly and yang should vivify steadily. They regulate themselves so as to maintain equilibrium. Yin and yang do not exist in isolation but are in a dynamic state in which they interact and fashion the complicated and intricate system of the human body.


Back to Table of Contents

5. The Yinyang Symbol
There is no a clear and definite way to determine the exact date of origin or the person who created the popular yinyang symbol. No one has ever claimed specific ownership of this popular image. However, there is a rich textual and visual history leading to its creation. Inspired by a primeval vision of cosmic harmony, Chinese thinkers have sought to codify this order in various intellectual constructions. Whether to formulate this underlying pattern through words and concepts or numbers and visual images has been debated since the Han dynasty. The question first surfaced in the interpretation of the Yijing. The Yijing is constructed around sixty-four hexagrams (gua), each of which is made of six parallel broken or unbroken line segments (yao). Each of the sixty-four hexagrams has a unique designation; its image (xiang) refers to a particular natural object and conveys the meaning of human events and activities. The Yijing thus has generated a special way to decipher the universe. It mainly incorporates three elements: xiang (images), shu (numbers), and li (meanings). They act as the mediators between heavenly cosmic phenomena and earthly human everyday life. From the Han dynasty through the Ming and Qing dynasties (1368-1912 CE), there was a consistent tension between two schools of thought: the school of xiangshu (images and numbers) and the school of yili (meanings and reasoning). At issue between them is how best to interpret the classics, particularly the Yijing. The question often was posed as: “Am I interpreting the six classics or are the six classics interpreting me?”

For the school of Xiangshu the way to interpret the classics is to produce a figurative and numerological representation of the universe through xiang (images) and shu (numbers). It held that xiangshu are indispensable structures expressing the Way of heaven, earth and human being. Thus the school of Xiangshu takes the position that “I interpret the classics” by means of the images and numbers. The emphasis is on the appreciation of classics. The school of Yili, on the other hand, focuses on an exploration of the meanings of the classics on the basis of one’s own reconstruction. In other word, the school of Yili treats all classics as supporting evidence for their own ideas and theories. The emphasis is more on idiosyncratic new theories rather than the explanation of the classics. In what follows, our inquiry focuses on the legacy of the Xiangshu school.

The most common effort of the Xiangshu school was to draw tu (diagrams). Generations of intellectuals labored on the formulation and creation of numerous tu. Tu often delineate structure, place, and numbers through black and white lines. They are not aesthetic objects but rather serve as a means of articulating the fundamental patterns that govern phenomena in the universe. Tu are universes in microcosm and demonstrate obedience to definite norms or rules. During the Song dynasty (960-1279 CE), the Daoist monk Chen Tuan (906-989 CE) made an important contribution to this tradition by drawing a few tu in order to elucidate the Yijing. Though none of his tu were directly passed down, he is considered the forerunner of the school of tushu (diagrams and writings). It is said that he left behind three tu; since his death, attempting to discover these tu has become a popular scholarly pursuit. After Chen Tuan, three trends in making tu emerged, exemplified by the work of three Neo-Confucian thinkers: the Hetu (Diagram of River) and Luoshu (Chart of Luo) ascribed to Liu Mu (1011-1064 CE), the Xiantian tu (Diagram of Preceding Heaven) credited to Shao Yong (1011-1077 CE), and the Taijitu (Diagram of the Great Ultimate) attributed to Zhou Dunyi (1017-1073 CE). These three trends eventually led to the creation of the first yinyang symbol by Zhao Huiqian (1351-1395 CE), entitled Tiandi Zhiran Hetu (Heaven and Earth’s Natural Diagram of the River) and pictured above at the head of this entry.


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6. References and Further Reading
Bennett, Steven J. “Patterns of the Sky and the Earth: A Chinese Science of Applied Cosmology.” Chinese Science (March 1978) 3: 1-26.

Chan, Wing-tsit, ed. A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1963.

Bodde, Derk. Essays on Chinese Civilization. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1981.

Dong, Zhongshu. Luxuriant Gems of the Spring and Autumn. Ed. Su Xing. Beijing: Chinese Press, 1996.

Fung, Yu-lan. A Short History of Chinese Philosophy. Trans. Derk Bodde. New York: The Free Press, 1997.

Graham, A.C. Yin-Yang and the Nature of Correlative Thinking. Singapore: The Institute of East Asian Philosophies, 1986.

Guanzi. Ed. Guan Bo. Beijing: Hua Xia Press, 2000.

Guoyu (Discourse of the States). Eds. Wu Guoyi, Hu Guowen and Li Xiaolu. Shanghai: Guji Press, 1994.

Huainanzi. Ed. Liu An. Xi’an: Sanqing Press, 1998.

Henderson, John B. The Development and Decline of Chinese Cosmology. New York: Columbia University Press, 1984.

Inoue, Satoshi. Xianqin Yinyang Wuxing (Pre-Qin Yinyang and Five Phases). Hubei: Education Press, 1997.

Kohn, Livia. “Ying and Yang: The Natural Dimension of Evil.” In Philosophies of Nature: The Human Dimension, eds. Robert S. Cohen and Alfred I. Tauber (New York: Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1997), 91-106.

Legge, James. The Chinese Classics: The Ch’un Ts’ew, with Tso Chuen. Taipei: SMC Publishing Inc., 1994.

Li, Shen and Guo Yu, eds. The Complete Selection of Diagrams of Zhouyi. Shanghai: China Eastern Normal University Press, 2004.

Makeham, John. Transmitters and Creators: Chinese Commentators and Commentaries on the Analects. Harvard East Asian Monographs, no. 228. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2003.

Needham, Joseph. Science and Civilization in China. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1956.

Porkert, Manfred. The Theoretical Foundations of Chinese Medicine: Systems of Correspondence. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1974.

Puett, Michael J. To Become a God: Cosmology, Sacrifice and Self-Divination in Early China. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2002.

Roth, Harold D. Original Tao: Inward Training (Nei-yeh) and the Foundations of Taoist Mysticism. New York: Columbia University Press, 1999.

Rubin, Vitaly A. “The Concepts of Wu-Hsing and Yin-Yang,” Journal of Chinese Philosophy 9 (1982): 131-157.

Sishu wujing (Four Books and Five Classics). China: Yuling Press, 1990.

Yabuuti, Kiyosi. “Chinese Astronomy: Development and Limiting Factors.” In Chinese Science: Explorations of an Ancient Tradition, eds. Shigeru Nakayama and Nathan Sivin (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1973), 91-103.

Yang, Xuepeng. Yinyang Qi yu Bianliang (Yinyang Qi and Changes). Beijing: Chinese Science Press, 1993.

Yates, Robin D.S. Five Lost Classics: Tao, Huang-Lao, and Yin-yang in Han China. New York: Ballantine Books, 1997.

Zhuangzi. Ed. Chen Guying. Beijing: Chinese Press, 1983.

[mantis108]

Finally, yinyang also plays a pivotal role in traditional Chinese thought about health and the human body. The early medical text known as the Huangdi neijing (The Yellow Emperor’s Classic of Internal Medicine) provides a detailed account of physiological functions and pathological changes in the body and guidance for diagnosis and treatment in terms of yinyang. Five zang (organs) -- the kidneys, liver, heart, spleen and lungs -- are classified as yin. They control the storage of vital substance and qi. Six fu (organs) -- the gallbladder, stomach, small and large intestines, urinary bladder and triple burner (referring to three parts of the body cavity: the upper burner, which houses the heart and lungs; the middle burner, which houses the spleen and stomach; and the lower burner, which houses the kidney, urinary bladder and small and large intestines) -- are yang and control the transport and digestion of food. The storage is a yin function, and the transport and transformation of substance is a yang function. But the zang and fu organs can be further subdivided into yin and yang. The activity or function of each organ is its yang aspect, while its substance is its yin aspect. Yin should flow smoothly and yang should vivify steadily. They regulate themselves so as to maintain equilibrium. Yin and yang do not exist in isolation but are in a dynamic state in which they interact and fashion the complicated and intricate system of the human body.


Back to Table of Contents

5. The Yinyang Symbol
There is no a clear and definite way to determine the exact date of origin or the person who created the popular yinyang symbol. No one has ever claimed specific ownership of this popular image. However, there is a rich textual and visual history leading to its creation. Inspired by a primeval vision of cosmic harmony, Chinese thinkers have sought to codify this order in various intellectual constructions. Whether to formulate this underlying pattern through words and concepts or numbers and visual images has been debated since the Han dynasty. The question first surfaced in the interpretation of the Yijing. The Yijing is constructed around sixty-four hexagrams (gua), each of which is made of six parallel broken or unbroken line segments (yao). Each of the sixty-four hexagrams has a unique designation; its image (xiang) refers to a particular natural object and conveys the meaning of human events and activities. The Yijing thus has generated a special way to decipher the universe. It mainly incorporates three elements: xiang (images), shu (numbers), and li (meanings). They act as the mediators between heavenly cosmic phenomena and earthly human everyday life. From the Han dynasty through the Ming and Qing dynasties (1368-1912 CE), there was a consistent tension between two schools of thought: the school of xiangshu (images and numbers) and the school of yili (meanings and reasoning). At issue between them is how best to interpret the classics, particularly the Yijing. The question often was posed as: “Am I interpreting the six classics or are the six classics interpreting me?”

For the school of Xiangshu the way to interpret the classics is to produce a figurative and numerological representation of the universe through xiang (images) and shu (numbers). It held that xiangshu are indispensable structures expressing the Way of heaven, earth and human being. Thus the school of Xiangshu takes the position that “I interpret the classics” by means of the images and numbers. The emphasis is on the appreciation of classics. The school of Yili, on the other hand, focuses on an exploration of the meanings of the classics on the basis of one’s own reconstruction. In other word, the school of Yili treats all classics as supporting evidence for their own ideas and theories. The emphasis is more on idiosyncratic new theories rather than the explanation of the classics. In what follows, our inquiry focuses on the legacy of the Xiangshu school.

The most common effort of the Xiangshu school was to draw tu (diagrams). Generations of intellectuals labored on the formulation and creation of numerous tu. Tu often delineate structure, place, and numbers through black and white lines. They are not aesthetic objects but rather serve as a means of articulating the fundamental patterns that govern phenomena in the universe. Tu are universes in microcosm and demonstrate obedience to definite norms or rules. During the Song dynasty (960-1279 CE), the Daoist monk Chen Tuan (906-989 CE) made an important contribution to this tradition by drawing a few tu in order to elucidate the Yijing. Though none of his tu were directly passed down, he is considered the forerunner of the school of tushu (diagrams and writings). It is said that he left behind three tu; since his death, attempting to discover these tu has become a popular scholarly pursuit. After Chen Tuan, three trends in making tu emerged, exemplified by the work of three Neo-Confucian thinkers: the Hetu (Diagram of River) and Luoshu (Chart of Luo) ascribed to Liu Mu (1011-1064 CE), the Xiantian tu (Diagram of Preceding Heaven) credited to Shao Yong (1011-1077 CE), and the Taijitu (Diagram of the Great Ultimate) attributed to Zhou Dunyi (1017-1073 CE). These three trends eventually led to the creation of the first yinyang symbol by Zhao Huiqian (1351-1395 CE), entitled Tiandi Zhiran Hetu (Heaven and Earth’s Natural Diagram of the River) and pictured above at the head of this entry.

Thank you for sharing. I believe this is one of the better work of explaining the situation. Personally, I am a fan of the Xiangshu school. I agreed that it does help to appreciate the classics and it is great for applied Yi. But to say "I interpret the classics" is a bit off IMHO. Xiangshu school is emperical in nature and is quite consistent to Daoist view (ie Laozi's Dao De Jing) as I understand it. Of course, there's Zhu Xi who seemed to have muddled the water by creating his own brand of Reasoning school utilizing Shao Yong's work (mainly to purge the Daoist ideology found in Shao's material). The problem is that Shao Yong's Xiantian Yi is organic, holistic and dynamic in nature. Zhu Xi's inventions really don't do justice to the masterful work of Shao. Ultimately, I believe Shu-Xiang-Li are the trinity of Yi. They should function as a whole and undivided. BTW, Shu is more about mathematics which numerology is a huge part of it. Just my take on the issue.

Regards

Mantis108

[grant]

Just to throw some mud into the waters, here:
Holy Roman Yin-Yangs! (http://www.estovest.net/tradizione/yinyang_en.html)

That's an academic article from the journal Sophia about the taijitu showing up as a piece of Roman insignia some 700 years before the symbol first showed up in China.

It probably didn't *mean* the same thing in Rome that it came to mean in China, but there it is. The swirly little design was the insignia for a military unit in 400 CE.

[Ray Pina]

Can anyone tell me the name and information of a certain Taoist symbol that speaks to me. It has the Kua's like the I-Ching, but instead of the TaiChi in the middle, there is a circle composed of four black and white wedges... each wedge is broken down into black and white as well, so either the tip is white or black.... this creates several visuals depending on the mindset at the time.... a ring on a mutlicored background, a circle within a circle, etc.

I have one but it's too large a file to post.

[Plymouth Rocks]

It's still the taiji symbol

[tattooedmonk]

does any one really study this stuff?? because it appears that most of you lack any depth to explore this issue. you all just take what is commonly known and accepted blindly without any exploration ...why is this??

[qiphlow]

how the hell did this thread get to be 9 pages????:eek: what, the horse wasn't dead enough?;)

[GeneChing]

Not when you keep beating it. Didn't they ever tell you that you should beat it so much? You'll go blind.

Nice article, grant. I'll have to ponder who that fits in my personal model of the yin yang speaking for itself as a universal symbol.

P.S. tattooedmonk: You don't need depth to post on a forum. Our membership application doesn't say 'we don't accept you if you're not deep'. Come on now. It's a web forum. What are you thinking?

[No_Know]

It is the tai chi in the Wu chi. The circle is the all. The double curved line within the circle is the stiring of all. Seemingly representitive of balance as far as action and reaction and the nature of the wholeness of anything.

100% and the allocation of that.


I No_Know

[NewToChen]

The explanation that i have always heard is that it represents the interplay of the dualities that make up life.

Now. Here is the thing: as all good philosophers of whatever school, culture or time period know, there really are no dualities because the universe is not, in fact, divided into opposing forces. It just looks like it is.

It looks that way for a number of reasons, which I find nicely summarized in the Hindu concept of maya(you can only perceive what you perceive, which is then filtered through your experience, so you never see reality, you see your perception of it).

So, you could regard it as a reminder that the seeming opposites are illusion, and we need to look past them, which is both easy and impossible.


Certainly not as deep an answer as some, but this occurred to me the other morning as i was thinking about this thread.


Cheers
N2C

[GeneChing]

Back when I lived in SF, Dan Savage had a hilarious column in the free entertainment weekly newspaper and so I read it regularly. Here's an item from his reader advice round-up (I'm only copy&pasting the relevant one).


Savage Love Letter of the Day: Reader Advice Round-up (https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/12/21/25643548/savage-love-letter-of-the-day-reader-advice-round-up)
by Dan Savage • Dec 21, 2017 at 1:45 pm

https://media1.fdncms.com/stranger/imager/u/original/25643553/1513806768-dan.jpg

Recent Savage Love Letters of the Day: A conventional man seeks an abusive relationship, a letter-writer wonders how to dispose of a blow-up doll, and a couple ponders going to a sex worker for their first first threesome. Also, last week's column and Savage Lovecast.

...

On ying yin and yang:


I'm a long time reader and fan of your work. Reading the 12/18/17 letter of the day, I have some info to correct your sentence, "But even if you could find a punchy ying to your punching bag yang..." As a student and teacher of Tai Chi Chuan, it's YIN/yang (not "ying") and, it's the Yin side that is the more "passive" aspect, only not exactly passive in the D/s way you meant. Yin/yang refers to aspects of the natural world. Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity, and nighttime. Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and active; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime. (Since this is you, I will specify: The feminine/masculine words above, like the others, denote an aspect that can be applied to any gender, including those on the non-binary spectrum.) Yin/Yang together represents the duality of nature: opposite sides of the same coin. For example, there is no light without shade: when the sun shines on an object, it casts a shadow, but it's not a static condition— the sun moves, what was dark becomes lit, and vice versa. Love your work, keep it up, all the best, and here's hoping for a better world in 2018.

[SPJ]

ready to change

everything in balance

:cool:

[Chris Blaze]

http://www.littlenineheavenpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Regenerating_Taijitu.gif

[GeneChing]

10,000 visitors share 3.5-ton Tai Chi tofu (http://www.ecns.cn/visual/hd/2018/05-21/162058.shtml)
2018-05-21 08:55Ecns.cn Editor:Mo Hong'e

http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2018/05/21/71fc736a99cf4f8fa2c62c36d44d9f94.jpg

An aerial view of a huge piece of tofu made in the shape of a Tai Chi diagram, on Laojun Mountain in Luoyang City, Central China's Henan Province, May 19, 2018. An impressive 1,550 kilograms of soybean was used to make the 3,500-kilogram tofu, which was decorated with characters and symbols of the 24 solar terms as well as the Tai Chi yin-yang symbol. Approximately 10,000 visitors shared the food on the mountain, known for its cultural heritage relating to Taoism. (Photo: China News Service/Wang Zhongju)

http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2018/05/21/66486867f427454196644e64b651a823.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2018/05/21/bc0320e57f1d4d7ab15444c361fdf05a.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2018/05/21/f55492470c5746dd808c16439a59acbb.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2018/05/21/f4d88b7c8e5a4741af5d8d9158b60539.jpg


THREADS:
The Yin Yang sign - What do you know about it? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?42743-The-Yin-Yang-sign-What-do-you-know-about-it)
Tofu (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68706-Tofu)

[GeneChing]

Who is the WRCA again? :rolleyes:



China crop field takes world record (https://www.msn.com/en-xl/asia/top-stories/china-crop-field-takes-world-record/ar-BB16X5CJ)
yujia,zhaozehui,libaojie,yujia,zhaozehui,libaojie, sunwenjiyidu 3 days ago

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB16Xjl6.img?h=768&w=1366&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=388&y=247
File photo of the Tai Chi patterned crop field in north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region. (Photo provided to Xinhua)

HOHHOT, July 20 (Xinhua) -- The World Record Certification Agency (WRCA) has recognized a Tai Chi patterned crop field in north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region as the world's "largest crop field Tai Chi pattern."

The Tai Chi pattern is composed of wheat and rapeseed flowers, with a diameter of 1,301.13 meters and a total area of about 1.33 million square meters.

This landscape was created by Shiwei Farm in its manor on the right bank of the Ergune River, the Sino-Russian border river. The manor is a complex project of agriculture, culture and tourism.

In recent years, Shiwei Farm has been developing eco-tourism with the local ecological environment and folk culture.

Tian Yimin, an official of Shiwei Farm, said the certification of "the largest crop field Tai Chi pattern" will help increase the farm's popularity and turn it into a well-known tourist attraction.

Threads
The-Yin-Yang-sign-What-do-you-know-about-it (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?42743-The-Yin-Yang-sign-What-do-you-know-about-it)
Martial-Arts-World-Records-and-Stunts (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?52601-Martial-Arts-World-Records-and-Stunts)