The Raw Shaolin Form

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, since many Shaolin styles basically teach the same, or similar movements, what if we took ALL Shaolin forms and connected them back to back to back, and then deleted all the redundant techniques to create one single form that represents all of Shaolin's techniques in one set?

How long would it be?

[qixingmantis]

id say as long as a piece of string

[beiquan]

why would you want to do that?
all of these different systems have their own unique history and development.
there is a lot more to a system than the techniques that you see in forms, just because two systems have outwardly "similar" moves, the power training and jibengong as preserved in those 2 systems might result in 2 very different interpretations.
besides, there already is a standardized "Shaolin" form and it's not worth much IMO.

[David Jamieson]

styles emphasize strategy and tactics which define them as a style.
Shaolin is a very broad and general term that covers a whole lot of styles.
teh long, the short, the middle. Different jings and how to develop them and how to express them in whatever context. the gongs, the augmentation practices that prepare you for use of techniques and so on and so on.

for people who study a system, it generally means following a method. That method will put emphasis on on what is known as workable within the context of what the master knows and what he will impart.

so in short, it would be virtually impossible to gather all forms and delete out all the redundancies because redundancy is what makes for progressive learning and strengthening of attributes associated with style.

anything worth having can't be rushed and when it is, it's not worth having. :)

[Shaolinlueb]

i think RD is tlaking about SOngshan shaolin. thats why he said raw. cause thats the "official" shaolin of today. and yes alot of their forms do look alike. I agree.

[BentMonk]

I could be wrong, but I think RD is curious as to how long we think a form that was assembled using each Shaolin technique one time would be. If I'm right, than this would be one seriously long form. I'd think it would take an hour or more to perform. If you could even remember all of it. I think SD already has a form like this. :eek: :D Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

As to redundancy within forms, I think it is how the person who created the form emphasized the techniques they felt were the most important for a student to learn. Repetition builds mental and muscle memory, as well as strength and coordination. JMO

[mickey]

Greetings,

This has been done.

Bagua in my opinion is one of the remaining doors to the real Lohan technique. Instead of having hundreds of forms, there was a simplification to essential techniques that through the use of directional changes evolve into something greater than what the eye can initially see. Tan Tui is like that as well.


mickey

[GeneChing]

sit casting a shadow on a stone

[Shaolinlueb]

sit casting a shadow on a stone


always answering with your philosophical stuff no one understands.


*edit
except maybe jamieson cause he's a hippie canadian.

[Royal Dragon]

My thought is that there is so *Much* redundancy, that a single form of all Shaolin, with all the redundancies removed might not be more than a few hundred techniques in length.

[David Jamieson]

what's not to get about koans?

[Mulong]

You are referring to a compulsory set way (guiding taolu); didn't they tried that already? :o

[GeneChing]

But redundancy is good. Repetition, repetition, repetition. It's all the flowery stuff we can do without. ;)

For me, actually, it goes the other way. Rather than look at all the different forms, I'm more fascinated by the multitude of variation within a single form. Take Xiaohong. It's practiced so many different ways. There's so much variation of interpretation between individuals. Just last week, I saw Yanxing's version of Yinshougun and it had a totally different beginning than what I was taught. I think both versions are valid. My version fits me better but Yanxing's version is still interesting. So for me, it's not about distilling to some universal essentials. It's about the immense diversity. If you just want basics, look to Muay Thai. There's only a few moves really, and then it's just repetition, repetition, repetition. ;) ;) ;)

P.S. Shaolinlueb, that was a softball koan. Surely you can penetrate it with a little meditation.

[Shaolinlueb]

i was talking about casting a stone. not the softball koan. the koan ill run over.


p.s. isnt it cone?

[GeneChing]

talking softball koans
conical shaolin shadows
an ill stoned cast

[BentMonk]

So many secrets
Hidden in gentle movements,
Always guiding me
On life’s magic road,
Leading me deeper
Into myself,
Now, I see the eyes of God.

[Shaolinlueb]

talking softball koans
conical shaolin shadows
an ill stoned cast



my head hurts a lot
shaolin koan is not here now
what the f you mean

[GeneChing]

shaolinlueb puzzles
haiku koans hurt his head
soon to be homeless (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41273)

[David Jamieson]

They are "kung an".

Koan is a japanese zen reference, but it's all the same stuff. IE: old men spouting crap that makes you feel stupid until you finally realize that the old men are just being coots.

Then you can make yourself feel stupid by really investigating mind and using kung an's in the process.

[Sal Canzonieri]

My thought is that there is so *Much* redundancy, that a single form of all Shaolin, with all the redundancies removed might not be more than a few hundred techniques in length.

Hmm, what you see today as "Shaolin forms" now existent are just an amalgamated summerization of Shaolin forms from just ONE time period, the Ching Dynasty.

Thus, forms derived from or at the temple, that originated during the Ming dynasty, the Yuan Dynasty, the Sung dynasty are missing. it would be thousands of moves then if these are included.

If all forms movements do indeed come from the original Lohan 18 Hands forms, then you can say 144 moves.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Greetings,

This has been done.

Bagua in my opinion is one of the remaining doors to the real Lohan technique. Instead of having hundreds of forms, there was a simplification to essential techniques that through the use of directional changes evolve into something greater than what the eye can initially see. Tan Tui is like that as well.


mickey

I totally agree here. I have been doing very deep analysis of the movements from the Shaolin 18 Lohan Hands 8 Section 144 move form.
I am pretty convinced that Dong Hai Chuan's ba gua via Yin Fu line and also into the Cheng Ting Hua and the Sun Lu Tang lines must have had direct connection to this form from Shaolin (in fact, Sun Lu Tang in his ba gua book says the ba gua contains the 18 Lohan within itself).

This 8 section form contains ALL the ideas later seen in ba gua except for only one:
circle walking.

Regardless of that, this 18 Lohan 8 section form contains all the stepping ideas (Mud stepping, bei and kuo stepping, etc), all the animals seen in ba gua and no where else, there are ONLY palm movements in the form punches are very rare,
all the kicks and foot jamming seen in Yin Fu style, most of the names of the movements are the same too!

The very first move in this Lohan form is pretty much the Single Palm change and the next move is pretty much the same as the Double Palm change, and the next set of moves is pretty much the same as the Whirling Palms, which are the 3 palms that Dong was said to have taught.

I am working on having this form taped so people can see what I mean.

It is so much like ba gua and contains all the 64 moves seen in almost all ba gua forms plus more (Lohan has 144 moves).

[Sal Canzonieri]

IS there any way someone in China can help me find out how old this form is?
It is called the 18 Lohan Hands - 8 Sections, 144 moves (18 moves x 8 sections).

The Shaolin Da Quan book says that Lohan style is pre-Sung dynasty.

I've been told that these lohan forms are amongst the oldest Lohan forms still known in the Henan area (not necessarily done at Shaolin temple, but from the countryside or from Loyang).

Can someone please help in anyway to date this form?

Even if the form is from the Ming dynasty, it is still OLDER than Ba Gua and Dong Hai Chuan, yes?

Many other Shaolin based forms and styles derive most of their moves from this form, such as Rou Quan (which is derived directly fron Lohan chi gungs), and even Tai Tzu Chang Quan, which now appears to me as a combination of Rou Quan and Lohan 18 Hands and some Moslem style influence that Emperor Chao must have picked up in his military training, such as Tong Bei.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Also, many have noticed similar moves, etc between tai ji and ba gua.

Well, if you examine this 18 Lohan form, it is clearly because Tai Tzu Chang Quan form was derived from it, and these same moves are then used by Chen Tai Jia and moved on to Yang and Wu styles.

Thus, original ba gua and tai ji both share moves than came from this Shaolin 18 Lohan Hands form.

[Shaolin Master]

1. Rouquan is an derived from Dabeiquan as developed by Venerable Qiyun (1904-1966)

2. The 8 sections of Luohan Shibashou are actually not that old. Reference is made from records of an older single 18 hands of luohan. But those 8 sections are not them and are in accordance with Deqian are only a sample of remaining sporatic 18 hands sets. Number two is the more popular and The latter (5-8) ones being recreated recently.

Lastly, do not look at 'moves' as that is not enough since intention, power generation etc....are the keys.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Sal Canzonieri]

1. Rouquan is an derived from Dabeiquan as developed by Venerable Qiyun (1904-1966)

2. The 8 sections of Luohan Shibashou are actually not that old. Reference is made from records of an older single 18 hands of luohan. But those 8 sections are not them and are in accordance with Deqian are only a sample of remaining sporatic 18 hands sets. Number two is the more popular and The latter (5-8) ones being recreated recently.

Lastly, do not look at 'moves' as that is not enough since intention, power generation etc....are the keys.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

Thanks, most interesting.
Can you tell me when "recently" is exactly.

So, whoever developed this 8 section form seemed to know a lot of ba gua and tai tzu quan cause it is very much like it, too much like it.

Also, the numbered Lohan forms that Shi Deqian's line does, which I have seen on their VCD series, aren't the same ones as those of the 8 section Lohan form that I am refering to, which is seen in his Shaolin Encyclopedia. Where do these forms come from?

Are the forms from the Lohan forms taught by Abbott Miao Xing, who died in 1939?

[Sal Canzonieri]

From KF Elements:
Dabeiquan, legend has it that it originated during the Ming Dynasty. It was a style practiced by the monks at the Henan Shaolin Temple and at Wutaishan . Dabeiquan is based on the teachings of the Buddhist Dabeizhou . In the 1960’s, a high priest, Qiyun Fashi , taught this style in Beijing.

Practitioners of Dabeiquan are required to recite a phrase from the sutra along with each posture. Its characteristics include that of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang. There are two routines in this style. They are Bashiliushi and Yibaiershiliushi .

Isn't Rou Quan something different? Rou Quan has three forms, the first one is the Lohan 13 Postures chi gong movements done in a row to make it into a form.
Rou Quan is credited to someone else rather than Qi Yun.
Maybe there are more than one Rou Quan style?

[GeneChing]

They are haiku. Koan zen is a very strict discipline, one of the more difficult ones to my way of thinking. I wrestled with the warrior koans without a teacher for way too long, until I realized that it was a fruitless path for me personally. Haiku is form or Japanese poetry characterized by minimalism and a certain meter. Koans could come in a Haiku meter, but they are typically two different things. Haiku is more free-form, more improv, while the koans are all registered after a fashion. There are about 1700 classic koans while new haiku are being generated all the time. Case and point, Shaolinlueb and I were using the classic 5-7-5 form here. Sorry if us 'coots' made you feel stupid, DJ. We were just having a little fun. ;)

[David Jamieson]

I was being facetious.

My reference was that "kung an" and "koan" are just different words for the same thing.

haiku is another thing entirely is it not?

Besides, you're not that much of a coot to me ~G, you know, seeing as we share the same birth year. The coots I'm talking about are the real old *******s that lay the koan on you during your practice with them. Now that's some cooting!

[GeneChing]

zen koan haiku
shaolin coots post way too much
facetious too

[Shaolinlueb]

shaolinlueb puzzles
haiku koans hurt his head
soon to be homeless (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41273)

oh my lord gene rhymes.
he's so good, i think he's good.
the shaolin ways here.

[Royal Dragon]

Have you been able to compare the moves from that website? remember the one formTaiwan that had 2 Tai Tzu sets, and a Xiao Hong set? Do you think those tow sections are supposed to be the 2nd, and 3rd section of Shaolin's Tai Tzu set?

Shaolin Master,
In today's world, of the arts that descended from Tai Tzu, which do you think is closest to the orginal? Cha Fist, Hong Fist, or Chen Taiji? Both? depending on the line? As in maybe each style reperesents a focus on a specific aspect of Tai Tzu?

Can you provide and video links to either clips on the web, or VCD's of closley related forms?

[lunghushan]

Sal, is there any other source for this other than the encyclopedia that you have found yet?

[golden arhat]

i wouldnt be surprised if the govenment tried to create one standard shaolin form for compettition the same way thaey did for southern CMA (nan quan)and northern CMA (chang quan)

[GeneChing]

See my article Battling to be Shaolin’s Best: The Shaolin Kung Fu Grade “A” Tournament By Gene Ching in our Shaolin Special 2003 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397). It's only really practiced in Dengfeng and among Shaolin people fresh out of Dengfeng. They needed something so the 80 schools near Shaolin could compete Taolu on an even platform. It's a challenging forum, but there's some distinctly wushu-like moves, almost like nandu, which make it in a class by itself. It think this is actually tangential to this discussion however (of course, so are the haiku :o )

Getting back to the 18, I've not been able to validate it as being that old from any ancient text or reference yet. It's often propounded as the original in myth, but with Shaolin, there's the performance wushu, there's the tourist guidebook, there's what is propounded in myths, and there's authentic Shaolin. There's more aspects, but I don't have all day to list them. And I wouldn't say that these are all mutually exclusive, although some certainly are. Shaolin is a huge complex place. Only the shallow simplify it. I've seen several 18 lohan. Even today's Shaolin jibengong is sometimes foisted off as an 18 lohan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, is there any other source for this other than the encyclopedia that you have found yet?

Nope, other than some older books that came out of Shaolin that have to same forms in them.

I haven't been able to get any firm verification about when this form was developed.

If it was from any time before Dong Hai Chuan, then it would make the form most interesting.

If it was the other way around, then I would say that this is the closest to Shaolin Ba Qua that one can get.

I can literally find all these 144 moves inside the various mother palms of ba gua forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Have you been able to compare the moves from that website? remember the one formTaiwan that had 2 Tai Tzu sets, and a Xiao Hong set? Do you think those tow sections are supposed to be the 2nd, and 3rd section of Shaolin's Tai Tzu set?

Shaolin Master,
In today's world, of the arts that descended from Tai Tzu, which do you think is closest to the orginal? Cha Fist, Hong Fist, or Chen Taiji? Both? depending on the line? As in maybe each style reperesents a focus on a specific aspect of Tai Tzu?

Can you provide and video links to either clips on the web, or VCD's of closley related forms?

I tried but the videos are done too fast to really see the forms clearly.

I did compare the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan form to the earliest known version of Chen Tai Ji:

Also, I need to clarify which CHEN tai ji, there is a big difference.

Not the Xia style of Chen Tai ji and Not all that descends from Chen Fake, New Frame is totally changed from the old way.

The line that stayed closest to the oldest way of doing the Chen Lao Jia are these two, these are the ones that it makes sense to compare to, not modernized Chen Tai Ji (sorry, my fault for not being specific about which line of Chen):

- Chen Zhao-Pei style of Chen Tai Ji, now taught by Chen Qing-Zhou. Born in 1933 Chen Qing-Zhou became the student of Chen Zhao-Pei. After practicing and teaching for over 20 years in Liberation Cemetary (he even slept some times) he added the New Frame of Chen ZhaoKui (Chen FaKe's son) to his repetoire. However, on further consideration he REJECTED the New Frame from his teachings. Chen Zhao-Pei was of Chen Fa Ke's father's generation. Read this bio: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/1570/cqzbio.html


- Chen TingYuan style of Chen Tai Ji. Some people believe that it was the foundation of when we now know as Chen Tai Chi. As with a number of other recorded sets this one was lost to the Chen Family in its 13th generation, because the sole 12th generation inheritor left out of Chen JiaGou (Chen Village). This Chen BuFu is believed to have committed a crime while aiding other people. He relocated to ShanXi region and changing his name to Guo YungFu. In 1975 Chen LiQing, from ChenJizGuo, visited master Hsu FongQin Hsu in ShanXi and recovered the form.

Here's a quick comparison:

Keep in mind that the Lao Jia form is like 4-5 forms combined together, so it consolidates similar moves from the forms. And it repeats moves a lot, plus it adds moves from Hong Quan, Spear, Staff, and Pao Chui, besides moves from Tai Tzu quan.

Also, the Chen lao jia form uses the names that the General Qi form uses, but the sequence of moves are instead done as in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan form.
Does that mean that the original names for the moves are like the TZQ form or like the Gen. Qi form?
Both the TZQ and the Gen QI forms do the same moves but call them different names and do them in a different order.

First go here and look at these photos of Chen Fa Ke doing the Lao Jia form (ignoring the fact the Chen did the New Frame, which added a lot of extra winding movements):
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenfake1.html

These are the equivalent moves in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan form:

1. Chen: Preparing Form (Yu Bei Shi)
TZQ: Preparing Form
(both moves are identical)

2. Chen:Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounding Mortar (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
TZQ: does the very similar Scoop Moon from Ocean Bottom (Hai di lao yue)
Chen does Pound Mortar like 5 times in the Lao Jia, the TZQ form does variations of it and calls them different names.

3. Chen: Lazily Tying Coat (Lan Zha Yi)
TZQ: Face to Face wrench hand (Yin-mian ban shou)
(both moves are identical in every way)

4-5. Chen: Six Sealings and Four Closings (Liu Feng Si Bi),
Single Whip (Dan Bian),
TZQ: These two Chen moves are pieces of this TZQ move - Press-down Hand hidden (Nan-yin)

6. Chen: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounding Mortar (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
TZQ: Block Shape Hammer (jie ba chui)
(both moves are identical in every way)

7. Chen: White Crane Spreads Wings (Bai He Liang Chi)
TZQ: Support forearm (Cheng Bang)
(both moves are nearly the same, application is exactly the same)

8-13. Chen: Walk Obliquely With Twist Step on Both Sides (Xie Xing Ao Bu), etc.
TZQ: These chen moves are same as Close Body (He shen), Lift ground seize sky (ti di qing tian) moves in TZQ, except that in Chen they are done on each side and in
TZQ they are done at the same time on both sides.
Also the Chen form repeats the moves twice.

14. Chen: Hidden Thrust punch (Yan Shou Hong Chui)
TZQ: Plunder or Brush Past Hand (Lue shou)
(identical)

15. Chen: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounding Mortar (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
TZQ: Squeeze hand Cannon (Ji shou pao)
(identical movements, even facing the same direction)

(Chen skips the next two moves from TZQ but does them later:
Plunder hand with single Dashing Fist (Lue shou dan dong quan)
and
Two lifting flying feet (Er qi fei jiao)

16. Chen: Draping Over Body (Pi Shen Chui)
TZQ: Both embrace (Shuang kuo)

17. Chen: Lean With Back (Bei Zhe Kao)
TZQ: Close body with both wrapping fists (Su shen shuang bao quan)

18. Chen: Blue Dragon Out of Water (Qing Long Chu Shui)
TZQ: Left Plowing hammer (zuo jue-qi chui)
A jue-qi is an ancient plow, from over 1,000 years ago)

19. Chen: Push With Both Hands (Shuang Tui Shou)
TZQ: Phoenix spreads wing (Feng Hwang Zhan chi)

Chen skips next move in TZQ and does it later
Shake Mountain (Yao shan) which is exactly the same as
31.Wave Hands (Yun Shou) in Chen, as shown on Jarek's site, on the page where he compares these moves and shows photos of both.


20. Chen: Change Palms Three Times (San Huan Zhang)
TZQ: Wrench hand and Push Waist 3 times (Ban shou Tui yao)

21. Chen: Punch at Elbow's Bottom (Zhou Di Chui)
TZQ: Tiger strike (hu pu)

22-23. Chen: Step Back and Whirl Arms at Both Sides (Dao Juan Hong) and Step Back and Press Elbow (Tui Bu Ya Zhou)
TZQ: Expel striking energy (Pai da qi yan)

23: Chen: Middle Winding (Zhong Pan)
TZQ: Close Body both wrapping (Su shen shuang bao)

24-30 Chen repeats some previous moves

31. Chen: Wave Hands (Yun Shou)
TZQ: Shake Mountain (Yao shan)
(exactly the same)

32. Chen: High Pat on Horse (Gao Tan Ma)
(Not in this TZQ form, but seen in Gen Qi's form and also seen in Shaolin Lohan forms).

that's half the form almost, matched move by move, each move has the same function too.

The other half of the TZQ form matches up the same way, skipping all the Chen repeats of moves.
Like the Chen lao jia form, the TZQ form next does the
two low crescent kicks, the kneeling punch, the jumping kicks, the hand under the elbow, the Tiger Grabs the Heart (same names used at the same point in the form!), the jump kick, the low punch, the repeat of Lazy tying Coat type moves, the kick, the getting down really low, the getting up really high and looking down, the various chin na kind of moves, the big side kick, and winding hands near the end, etc.

Need I go on? The two forms follow each other.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The thing is that many many of these movements that are found in the Tai tzu Chang Quan form and Chen tai ji
are ALSO done the exact same way in this 18 Lohan Hands 144 move form.

So, if this particular 18 Lohan 8 section form really from before the Ching Dynasty, then it might explain why many people, such as Sun Lu Tang, have commented on how many movements in tai ji and ba qua seem to overlap and can be understood by each other.

[GeneChing]

Think you could compress that all into 1500-2500 words with pictures (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php)? ;)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Think you could compress that all into 1500-2500 words with pictures (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php)? ;)

Okay, will work in it when I get the chance.
I need to have someone take photos of me doing both forms.

Maybe I can put all the side by side movement comparisons into a table?

[GeneChing]

Email me privately if you're serious about pursuing this - gene@kungfumagazine.com. It's been a while since you've published anything with us.

[lunghushan]

Is that the Encyclopedia from Earthworks that we're talking about here? A little pricey, and only in Chinese.

Does anybody know where to get something like this in English?

Also, does anybody know where to get decent videos of these forms? I hesitate to buy any DVDs or VCDs from China because I got a lot in the past but they weren't very good ... seemed to be only wushu-ized material.