Where would you stick the Pole?

[tjwingchun]

Fundamentally Wing Chun or a later addition?

The Pole form is a bit of an enigma, the stance and its actions most find difficult to rationalise using pure Wing Chun empty hand form principles, so the argument goes that it was added after the main part of the system was formulated, I don't see the anomaly, in my mind it is a perfect Wing Chun weapon once you define its use.

The weapons of Wing Chun are in my mind are a well suited combination for actual warfare, it is my view that they were designed and developed specifically for the battlefield, I am not persuaded by the Red Junk history as wars are fought mainly on the ground not water, not that I reject their influence, just that the Wing Chun pole was thought of because it was first used to punt.

Why should Wing Chun have such an unwieldy weapon as the pole? It was a question I pondered for a long time, thinking of the moves, analysing methodology, considering the simplicity, 'MY' answer came to me and it remains the way I justify the pole as a legitimate weapon in real fighting.

Simply to knock men off horseback, once they have been knocked off then they are vulnerable to the short double swords. It was some years after I began teaching this theory for justification, that one of my students told me of an exhibition at the Royal Armoury in Leeds, UK, showing how the English pikestaff was utilised, a similar ten foot weapon, except it has a hook on the end, used to remove knights from their horses.

I also remember being told many years ago that there was two pole forms, the 6,1/2, and a 3,1/2, the 3,1/2 was considered the most advanced, as it was simpler. This information just got stored in the back of my mind and did not emerge again until much later, the first pole form I was shown is from Yip Chun, the second, Yip Ching, the differences are three extra techniques in the Yip Ching version.

Analysis of these three extra moves led me to think of 'pole fighting pole' usage, this does not sit comfortably with me as why should I use my pole to fight a pole with when I have two nice pieces of sharp metal to chop my enemy up with, also even without a weapon, once past the end of the pole it is just a liability to fight with.

Apart from good muscle training and something to do instead of Chi Sau when you fancy doing something different, pole against pole exercises in my view have little credence in actual combat scenarios. Just my view.

[couch]

Fundamentally Wing Chun or a later addition?

The Pole form is a bit of an enigma, the stance and its actions most find difficult to rationalise using pure Wing Chun empty hand form principles, so the argument goes that it was added after the main part of the system was formulated, I don't see the anomaly, in my mind it is a perfect Wing Chun weapon once you define its use.

The weapons of Wing Chun are in my mind are a well suited combination for actual warfare, it is my view that they were designed and developed specifically for the battlefield, I am not persuaded by the Red Junk history as wars are fought mainly on the ground not water, not that I reject their influence, just that the Wing Chun pole was thought of because it was first used to punt.

Why should Wing Chun have such an unwieldy weapon as the pole? It was a question I pondered for a long time, thinking of the moves, analysing methodology, considering the simplicity, 'MY' answer came to me and it remains the way I justify the pole as a legitimate weapon in real fighting.

Simply to knock men off horseback, once they have been knocked off then they are vulnerable to the short double swords. It was some years after I began teaching this theory for justification, that one of my students told me of an exhibition at the Royal Armoury in Leeds, UK, showing how the English pikestaff was utilised, a similar ten foot weapon, except it has a hook on the end, used to remove knights from their horses.

I also remember being told many years ago that there was two pole forms, the 6,1/2, and a 3,1/2, the 3,1/2 was considered the most advanced, as it was simpler. This information just got stored in the back of my mind and did not emerge again until much later, the first pole form I was shown is from Yip Chun, the second, Yip Ching, the differences are three extra techniques in the Yip Ching version.

Analysis of these three extra moves led me to think of 'pole fighting pole' usage, this does not sit comfortably with me as why should I use my pole to fight a pole with when I have two nice pieces of sharp metal to chop my enemy up with, also even without a weapon, once past the end of the pole it is just a liability to fight with.

Apart from good muscle training and something to do instead of Chi Sau when you fancy doing something different, pole against pole exercises in my view have little credence in actual combat scenarios. Just my view.


Where would I stick the pole?

That's kinda personal. yah know?

P.S. I just couldn't resist.

[k gledhill]

It is outdated but I find the pole tactics one of the best ways to expalin the system to beginers. The focus of all our efforts to a point that will knock someone down or ....., combining leg, torso and arms all in timing of 1 while using the staff/forearms to divert /maintain a defensive line as we attack. The ballistic short force of the parries to 'knock' any weapon/arm offline for the fraction we need to maintain the target and strike....taken to the pak, bong, jum, tan,vu et al...and it all becomes clear whats pointing the way...weapons. and the linsildida of the system.
the knives are outdated to some degree but again are the guiding beacon to the whole 'way' without knowing the tactics one usually suffers the 'facing a bucket of water' syndrome of thinking " I fight like I do chisao " ....imagine someone attacking you with 2 knives and 2 legs where do want to be to maximize your offense ...? and minimize the possibility of death...? there are 2 ways to move 1 using empty hands which is as the myjong and the wider as the knives to allow for the distance of an edged weapon in your hands... sounds like 2 but its 1 way ....teachers often focusing on 1 part of the system rather than the whole ...but thats my opinion anyway :D

[Mr Punch]

You may be right with the knocking people of horses thing, but your comparison with the European pike is very wrong.

The pike is a pole-arm, ie, specifically it has a sharp, bladed or pointed end. It was aimed usually at the horses' chests, not at the horseman who'd be too difficult to aim for. And in fact most pikes certainly of three metres or more had a spike at the opposite end too to jam into the ground to arrest the horses' charge, because they were too fast and heavy to stop with just the bodyweight of the pikeman. The horses' momentum would often carry a speared horse all the way up the haft of the pike, where the pikeman would have to finish the horseman with a side-arm, so there would have been no light thrusting motions, or 'stabs'.

On to the wing chun pole itself. I've only been shown one of its 'techs' and from what I've been told, read and believe, it's purely an energetics training implement.

The little side swipes and counterthrusts in the form make sense for staff fighting but are so basic it makes me wonder that if it were a technical form where are the rest of the techs?! True, practising basic and often is better, but counters to the wing chun staff 'techs' would also be very basic and are not covered. Coming from an aikido staff background, which is very very efficient jojutsu supposedly in a direct line from Muso Gonnosuke (arguably Japan's most famous staff exponent and the only person recorded to have beaten Musashi, spurring Musashi to develop his characteristic two-sword style), any decent staff player would beat the living sugar out of someone only trained in WC staff! And I've never made such a strong claim about anything on the net!

[Vajramusti]

any decent staff player would beat the living sugar out of someone only trained in WC staff! And I've never made such a strong claim about anything on the net!
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How many folks really know wing chun pole usage and/or have received substantial training in wing chun pole work ? Ip Man appears to have taught very few people in any extensive pole work.


joy chaudhuri

[AmanuJRY]

These two are charachteristicly different. It's like the 'style vs. style' arguement, ultimately it will depend on physical size and ability, understanding of the art and experience employing it.

How about WC knives vs. Jo?

(see, it's kinda bogus, huh?)

But, for the sake of it, in modern times who walks around with an 8' pole? (Escrima sticks...maybe.)

I don't train it for the 'weapon' skill of it. I train it for it's conditioning aspects, and would teach it to students at the begining of their training.

[Edmund]

I think tjwingchun is correct.

The pike was a common weapon in armies for many cultures before guns came about. Also the bow and arrow.

IMO many martial arts "borrowed" from the military training ideas that were around when they developed. e.g. To train pikesmen to wield long pikes they make them practice with a long pole. You don't teach a big set of moves to them.

[Vajramusti]

There are quite a few moves with the pole. IMHO- the analogy of pikes to poles has its limits.
Use of poles was quite common in rivers and bays-boat and barge culture in south China- but the conversion of it to a tool varies with martial styles. Wing chun usage is different from hung ga usage for instance.
Wing chun usage is coordinated with wing chun principles- the devil in the details
thing.

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

Wing Chun was developed for fighting on a boat. And the pole was used to move the boat in shallow water, and it was used to fight off any boarding parties that were not exactly envited. These people traveled up and down the major river systems of China as well as up and down the coast in their travels while performing. Everything they owned would be aboard their boats and they would need to defend against pirates and a miriade of other groups. If you have studied the pole techniques you can easily see that it is designed for running forward and backward on the side of a boat. I don't think it was ever used or adopted by the armies and other military groups. Jujitsu comes from a Chinese form of grappling. Probably something like Kenpo or some other Chinese martial art, and this is what the armies probably adopted for use rather than Wing Chun.

[Mr Punch]

any decent staff player would beat the living sugar out of someone only trained in WC staff! And I've never made such a strong claim about anything on the net!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many folks really know wing chun pole usage and/or have received substantial training in wing chun pole work ? Ip Man appears to have taught very few people in any extensive pole work.


joy chaudhuriI don't really disagree with you Joy, but I don't really see where your posts follows on from the bit you quoted in mine...


These two are charachteristicly different. ...
How about WC knives vs. Jo?

(see, it's kinda bogus, huh?)No, they are not characteristically different ...

1) They are both long blunt sticks, primarily used with both hands.

2) It is therefore nothing like a pair of WC knives v a stick.


It's like the 'style vs. style' arguement, ultimately it will depend on physical size and ability, understanding of the art and experience employing it. Nah. That's a lazy catch-all circular argument. All the understanding and experience in the world of the pole form taught in WC would not stand up to all the understanding and experience of jojutsu. Why? Because jojutsu has live stick v stick sparring, and a few basics such as a sweep, a dripping water deflection (in fact any number of deflections and counters), a 'cut' as opposed to just a thrust (and yes, I know the thrust is quicker than the cut, but that doesn't make it all-conquering), the use of both ends etc.

And what does WC pole have? Centreline theory? Let me introduce to you the age-old kenjutsu concept of 'kensen' which is also found in non-sword koryu: this is the theory and practice of using the tip of the weapon for threatening and controlling the centreline of the opponent, and provoking the opponent to rash attacks on your centreline.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing WC pole. I think it's probably very deep and useful. And I know my statement about jojutsu was provocative and a bit silly.

But you're missing my main point, which is that it's not a series of fighting techniques, but a series of principles.

Now it may be that it's like the SLT of pole work, and there were other forms or parts of the form that followed up and fell out of disuse. A basic catalogue of pole techs if you like. In which case, as a technical form, it's limited at best, hence my statement.

But more likely I think is that it's an addition to the unarmed forms: and thus primarily used as a training form for various energies and even muscles, to be merged with the principles of biu jee that have already got you thinking out of the box.

Of course, as I said, I've only been shown the first move, although I've seen the whole thing... so you're welcome to take my view with a pinch of salt, but it's what I was taught and I see no reason to disagree!


I don't train it for the 'weapon' skill of it. I train it for it's conditioning aspects, and would teach it to students at the begining of their training.Precisely. That was my point.

BTW, you say 'you would'... does that mean you're not a teacher, or that there is some other reason why you don't teach it at the beginning? Just out of interest of course...

[Mr Punch]

Jujitsu comes from a Chinese form of grappling. Probably something like Kenpo or some other Chinese martial art, and this is what the armies probably adopted for use rather than Wing Chun.Myself and the whole of the world of martial historians eagerly look forward to your evidence of this!

[Liddel]

Interesting thoughts going on here...

The pole in my mind is a good sound weapon, it has its limits, like any weapon even more so in todays world, but with good base skill one can make it powerful.

I dont agree with the pike theory although my beliefs towards the arts dictate that a good fighter could and probably did use it for many uses as situations and opportunity arose.

As ive been tuaght - the Poles forte is as a longe range weapon, its attacking actions are used with a pierce type force distributed through the tip.

If the PIKE theory is correct my view is that its use back then changed, prior during or since its addition to VT.

I think if practised propperly (hard work with sweat and tears) its detrimental to teach it early in the learning process. It can slow a persons grasp of the horse for the handforms. Just my opinion and theres always an exception to the rule.

Fundamentally Wing Chun or a later addition?
I believe what was handed down to me, which is -
It was a latter addition. Althought the theory is fundamentally VT for weapons.


any decent staff player would beat the living sugar out of someone only trained in WC staff! And I've never made such a strong claim about anything on the net!

You and i certainly have differnt versions of VT.
For a start, i use a Pole. ;)

[tjwingchun]

Wing Chun was developed for fighting on a boat.

That is the first time I have ever heard that statement, but each to their own, I cannot argue with it as I was not there when it was conceived; I am old but not that old :D

The only similarity I believe in between pole and pikestaff relates to the length and its purpose, my thinking is a weapon that is basically so heavy, unwieldy and unsuitable for hand to hand combat, must have a legitimate use on the battlefield, hence I came up with the "knocking people off horseback" theory. (Later re-inforced by the Pikestaff reality)

Upright prepared stance for deflecting lances, dropping into the low horse stance giving you momentum, drive and structure when striking into a rider.

Again just my vision on how I legitimise the pole to my students and to make sense of the numbers here are my thoughts.

(The next bit is taken from my post in "The Wing Chun Mystery" where this thread originated in my mind)

I look at the the 3 techniques as the spearing, horizotal energy and the vertical, the half technique is both the dropping at the start and the outward thrust at the end, I interpret these as either throwing the pole at an opponent to give me time to rush them or simply drop the pole as I attack with the knives, not so much a technique as such more of an action, hence the half concept.

These are just my interpretations from the form on how I would use the pole on a real battlefield, I appreciate that as weaponry has advanced the pole and the knives have become redundant in the real world but they do have value with other aspects of training the hands, as well as getting the mind beyond the hands which helps projecting your energy outside the limits of your body.

More advanced than the 6,1/2 ? no just simpler, and in my opinion of more 'real' value, as I have said the extra 3 energies can be used for pole against pole and useful for students 'sparring' with the poles, but if my life was on the line in combat I would prefer to have my knives in my hands.

I seem to remember also the little saying "with the best pole there is only one sound" and that is the 'hit'.

I agree the the skill level of using the pole is past its sell by date but its usefulness as a training tool never will, my attempts to keep it REAL at least in theory, I feel help when teaching, so that the student can visualise what they are trying to acheive with the pole.

If all it was about was punting about on the river, I could just send them off to a local boating lake.

And as far as ground fighting and grappling is concerned you can imagine my suprise when I found this on another forum proving where the reality ground fighting comes from a Traditional Chinese Matrial Arts System.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L70tjwNTtuI

Now if I can just get my tongue out of my cheek as it is so firmly wedged, I might stop laughing, but to give it some credence you can see the leg breaking concepts, but like I said at the start.

EACH TO THEIR OWN

[AmanuJRY]

No, they are not characteristically different ...

1) They are both long blunt sticks, primarily used with both hands.

2) It is therefore nothing like a pair of WC knives v a stick.

Nah. That's a lazy catch-all circular argument. All the understanding and experience in the world of the pole form taught in WC would not stand up to all the understanding and experience of jojutsu. Why? Because jojutsu has live stick v stick sparring, and a few basics such as a sweep, a dripping water deflection (in fact any number of deflections and counters), a 'cut' as opposed to just a thrust (and yes, I know the thrust is quicker than the cut, but that doesn't make it all-conquering), the use of both ends etc....BTW, you say 'you would'... does that mean you're not a teacher, or that there is some other reason why you don't teach it at the beginning? Just out of interest of course...

Dude, the pole and the jo are three feet different in length and several pounds more in weight. If you don't think that changes the charachteristics of the instrument and it's implementation then you must be developmentally challenged. Not only are they physically different but the way a WC person uses the pole and the way an Akidoka uses a jo (form wise) is completely different.

Hence, style vs. style. ;)

stick vs. stick sparring? That's a training method, not a direct aspect of any specific art (to mean, it's not 'owned' by any art).

Oh, and I am teaching it. I mean 'would' as in I would teach it to new students (as in students that are new to me and WC, but I can't currently teach because they aren't students yet;) ).

[anerlich]

Jujitsu comes from a Chinese form of grappling.

Not really. It would be just as correct to say it came from India or Ancient Greece.

Make sure you have read the history chapters in "Mastering JuJitsu" by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher, before arguing.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jujitsu comes from a Chinese form of grappling.

Not really. It would be just as correct to say it came from India or Ancient Greece.

Make sure you have read the history chapters in "Mastering JuJitsu" by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher, before arguing.

I am just guessing, but I would think the story I got was just about as good as the one you get from Gracie and Danaher. After all, the man that explained it all to me got his information from the Japanese military, which I am sure had some history on the art. Have you ever studied Japanese Jujitsu? I have and I have to say that there are a great many differences in it and the Brazillian Jujitsu. Back some 50 years ago when I first started training both WC and JJJ, I had never heard of all the different stuff that you can read about today. I have read at least a dozen histories on each one and they all seemed to be different accounts. I trust the ones I have learned in the very beginning. It all seems to make more sense to me anyway. All this stuff about time and space and all the other concepts. Great Buda, we are speaking of Kung Fu, not nuclear phisics. Believe what you want to believe. It don't really matter. No one really knows for certain anyway.

[Mr Punch]

There is no evidence to say that jujutsu came from any Chinese form.

End of song, end of story.

Thank you and good night.

[Lee Chiang Po]

There is no evidence to say that jujutsu came from any Chinese form.

End of song, end of story.

Thank you and good night.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it were that easy. No, you are incorrect. Jujitsu has been traced back to China some 2500 years ago. Called by another name I am sure, but most of the arts today originate from this single parent art. In fact, most of the forms we see today are 50 years old or less. Like Judo and Aikido, and even Tai Kwan Do.

[anerlich]

I am just guessing

That pretty much sums it up, especially since you haven't read the aforementioned reference.

[Mr Punch]

If it were that easy. No, you are incorrect. Jujitsu has been traced back to China some 2500 years ago. Called by another name I am sure, but most of the arts today originate from this single parent art. In fact, most of the forms we see today are 50 years old or less. Like Judo and Aikido, and even Tai Kwan Do.It is that easy. You are wrong. There is no evidence to suggest that this is any more than another MA myth.

You can't even get the dates of modern arts right, why should we trust you talking about 2500? :p :D

Aikido goes back to the 1920s, as does judo (in fact longer)... which is longer than 50 years!

In the oldest written history on the planet which is Japan's Nihonshiki there is mention of a grappling/throwing art. Since this book also mentions lots of things with Chinese influence and at that time there was no animosity between the two cultures there would be no reason to obscure it if it came from China. This art developed into sumai which became sumo and which arguably is the origin of jujutsu. I say arguably because there is no direct historical evidence, just as there is no evidence to suggest this mythical art of yours from 2500 years ago existed.

If you can't provide a link to your 'fact' perhaps you can tell me which book you read it in, or who traced it back so far.

Again, I and the Martial Arts world are eagerly waiting for you answer... but since you've just talked **** since the last time you asked, I'm not holding my breath.

[Mr Punch]

Dude, the pole and the jo are three feet different in length and several pounds more in weight. If you don't think that changes the charachteristics of the instrument and it's implementation then you must be developmentally challenged. Not only are they physically different but the way a WC person uses the pole and the way an Akidoka uses a jo (form wise) is completely different.
Yeah, that's a fair point. But, it's still a stick. If you think a stick of kind used in wing chun could be a useful weapon except against maybe people on horseback, in the army or on boats I think maybe it's you who's developmentally challenged!

I know long heavy poles were used, but I don't think they were ever regular staples of single hand-to-hand combat.


Hence, style vs. style. ;)

stick vs. stick sparring? That's a training method, not a direct aspect of any specific art (to mean, it's not 'owned' by any art).But don't think stick vs stick is a common training practice in WC. So a style which regularly practices it will have the advantage, no?


Oh, and I am teaching it. I mean 'would' as in I would teach it to new students (as in students that are new to me and WC, but I can't currently teach because they aren't students yet;) ).Cool.

[omarthefish]

lol.

Amazing....

First of all, the analogy to pole-arms is silly and the WC pole is essentially a spear. THAT's where you should be looking for comparisons. As such, it is tragicomical that there are so many who have a hard time seeing it's usefullness as a weapon even in old times. The double knives are the one's at the HUGE disadvantage when faced with the pole aka "a staff". The spear is considered the "king" of the long weapons and generally the most dangerous chinese weapon of all with the sword being the top dog of the short weapons.

The spear and the sword are the two most respected weapons because, among other things, they are the two that can allow their users to display the highest level of skill and the WC pole, being basically a one ended staff that only makes small short movements to "strike" with the shaft and then pokes with the tip a lot, doesn't spin or do many large sweeping movements....all of those are the basic characteristics of spear work.

The other analogy is that spear work is most highly valued today for the way it unifies the body and developes good short power and other basic skills.

The pike analogy is flawed because those are not used as personal figthing weapons at all and don't even require "martial arts" skill from the guy holding the weapon. They require it from the guy who is directing the troops. Dismounting mounted fighters with those things was a bit of creative genius from someone who was well aware that armies win battles, not individual fighters.

Other pole-arms also don't equate nearly as well to the WC pole because the characteristics of something like a guan dao are totally different. A guan dao, a true pole-arm is used to hack and slash more than to stab. Movements are twirling and circling. The weapon needs to keep in motion, keep the momentum going. Both ends are used a lot the blade AND the but. Not spear-like at all.

I always wondered why they even call it a "pole" instead of doing what everyone else does and call it a staff, a "single end staff" if you want to get picky.

[AmanuJRY]

Yeah, that's a fair point. But, it's still a stick. If you think a stick of kind used in wing chun could be a useful weapon except against maybe people on horseback, in the army or on boats I think maybe it's you who's developmentally challenged!

Well, thank god I don't believe that!

The M-16 is a more effective personal firearm than the M-60 or a shoulder slung vulcanized gatling gun, but the latter sure looks good in the movies.;)

My point is that it's not beyond reason that a person could be skilled enough with a long pole to 'beat' someone with a jo, given the body size, ability, and experience (IOW, it's not just the choice of weapon, but the person as well, hence person vs. person not style vs. style.

In the case of weapons, strategy and tactics play a larger role than in empty hands, therefore it leads to being more about the person than the art.


I know long heavy poles were used, but I don't think they were ever regular staples of single hand-to-hand combat.

But don't think stick vs stick is a common training practice in WC. So a style which regularly practices it will have the advantage, no?

Cool.

Of course, that's why I train in Escrima.;)

There are some pole exercises in some WC branches, mostly constructed drills though.

And how about these people training stick to stick jo practice?

Me thinks they are almost as rare as a WC school that actually 'spars' with poles.:cool:
(as none of the Aikido/jitsu or Karate classes I've ever witnessed or attended did)

So, Punch, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just have a different way of looking at it.:o

[Vajramusti]

In the oldest written history on the planet which is Japan's Nihonshiki
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oldest? On the planet? Really? When was it written and in what language
and medium?
Pre- Kanji. Language evolves and changes occur along the way. But even before
WW1 and 2... the Japanese written language was based on Chinese characters.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Southern poles and wing chun pole work are different from Northern spears.
China had its diversities.
Pole work may have been originally related to boats but
its usefulness continues in wing chun development of structure, function and motion, if learned properly and well. Its not just for poking.

joy chaudhuri

[Mr Punch]

In the oldest written history on the planet which is Japan's Nihonshiki
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oldest? On the planet? Really? When was it written and in what language
and medium?
Pre- Kanji. Language evolves and changes occur along the way. But even before
WW1 and 2... the Japanese written language was based on Chinese characters.

joy chaudhuriJapanese 8th century. And it's my mistake, as it was the Kojiki I'm thinking of not the Nihonshoki. As far as I know, which may not be very (!) it's the oldest book attempt of history as opposed to murals, scrolls, a geneology lists. I may well be wrong, it has happened many times before! :D

My point remains the same: jujutsu style grappling, or sumai if you prefer is mentioned in that book. There are paintings from the Nara and Heian Periods depicting similar fighting. Fighting styles must have developed wherever there were people and any attempt to link Japanese jujutsu to Chinese styles definitively is as facetious and inaccurate as any attempt to state all martial arts come from the Buddha!

I don't understand the relevance of the second part of your post at all.

AmanuJRY, good points. As for the jo sparring, we did it in my aikido school about once a month. I can't really comment on how common it is as I haven't been to a representative enough sample of schools, but I have met other aikidoka who do it to some degree and some jojutsuka who did it a lot.

Good post Omar, but I'm still inclined to agree with Joy when he talks about it being a tool for structure, function and motion, though I'm not sure of what kind of function he's talking about.

You may have it historically but it's practical use in WC is still, I think, purely for energetics nowadays.

[Vajramusti]

My comments were NOT on the origins of jujutsu- but on other parts of your post(s).

1,The Indian Epics Ramayana and Mahabharata are some of the earliest written
literature on this "planet". They were written on dried palm leaves/manuscripts
apart from oral trnasmission and are sources of history including some martial arts.The palm leaf mauscripts were later on hand copied on to paper with the introduction of paper.

2. Before the introduction of Chinese kanji around 500 AD- Japanese was an isolated spoken language.

joy chaudhuri

[omarthefish]

Southern poles and wing chun pole work are different from Northern spears.
China had its diversities.
Pole work may have been originally related to boats but
its usefulness continues in wing chun development of structure, function and motion, if learned properly and well. Its not just for poking.

joy chaudhuri

Explain.

How are they different?

Aside from the sharp piece of metal on the end of one, explain how they are essentially different? BTW, I made no mention whatsoever of "northern" spears, just spears.

So far no differences have been pointed out on this thread. I'll give you that they ARE different weapons but everything that has been described so far about the basic nature, usage and reasons for training the WC pole all also apply to spear work and that includes what you posted above. Just change it ever so slightly:

Spear work may have been originally related to fighting in phalanx type groups but its usefulness continues in Baji/Xing Yi/Taijiquan/(other martial arts that still teach spear work) development of structure, function and motion, if learned properly and well. Its not just for poking.


So like uh...how is it different again?

[omarthefish]

Mr. Punch,

As I just pointed out in my last post, I wasn't speaking historically. Actually that is the place where I don't see them as being related. Historically I'm going with their adaptation from pushing boats around. I am just making a comparison between their tactical and strategic natures, their technical application and their place within martial arts training today. THAT's where I think the WC pole should be compared to the spear.

[Mr Punch]

My comments were NOT on the origins of jujutsu- but on other parts of your post(s).I realized that. I still didn't see the relevance of your post though, as I was talking about a book written in the eighth century and somehow mention of WW1 and WW2 got in there! Plus of course we know kanji was the first codified written script in Japan so by my saying that the book was written in Japanese should have made it obvious that we were talking about kanji.


1,The Indian Epics Ramayana and Mahabharata are some of the earliest written
literature on this "planet". They were written on dried palm leaves/manuscripts
apart from oral trnasmission and are sources of history including some martial arts.The palm leaf mauscripts were later on hand copied on to paper with the introduction of paper.Of course you've made your point: but of course I wasn't disrespecting Indian culture in my statement. My original statement was that I thought the Kojiki was the oldest history. I then clarified by saying history book.

I don't know if Ramayana or Mahabharata can be classified as history, but then by those criteria (ie, they have legendary and mythological histories entwined) I suppose the Kojiki can't either. The Nihonshoki, however, is history.

Of course all of this is irrelevant to Lee Chiang Po's unprovable comment about jujutsu, which is where my ref to Kojiki came in.


As I just pointed out in my last post, I wasn't speaking historically. Actually that is the place where I don't see them as being related. Historically I'm going with their adaptation from pushing boats around. I am just making a comparison between their tactical and strategic natures, their technical application and their place within martial arts training today. THAT's where I think the WC pole should be compared to the spear.Oh. Right. No, that's wrong. The technical application and place within MA today of the WC pole is
it's practical use in WC is still, I think, purely for energetics nowadays., not as some b@stardised spear form.

I don't know if the spear has a practical application or if it's just an effective but outdated martial relic. If you've learnt any spear forms perhaps you have more to offer...?

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by Vajramusti
Southern poles and wing chun pole work are different from Northern spears.
China had its diversities.
Pole work may have been originally related to boats but
its usefulness continues in wing chun development of structure, function and motion, if learned properly and well. Its not just for poking.

joy chaudhuri


Explain.

How are they different?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apart from the boat versus foot soldier and horsemen origins---
You have to learn good nwing chun pole work- it is not that common.
Even other southern styles like hung gar uses the pole differently.
Dont have time for a dissertation- but basically some short notes might help.

The pole is integrated into the wing chun body structure in its own wing chun way.
The role of the front and back hands are quite different from most spear work..
Those two points are just starters.

Once one learns the pole- no longer needs the pole- anything appropriately longer than a stick will do.Other objects will do. And the hand and structure is energized in new ways by proper pole usage (where the pole doesnt use you).

joy chaudhuri

[Edmund]

The pike analogy is flawed because those are not used as personal figthing weapons at all and don't even require "martial arts" skill from the guy holding the weapon. They require it from the guy who is directing the troops. Dismounting mounted fighters with those things was a bit of creative genius from someone who was well aware that armies win battles, not individual fighters.


You truly can't read.

Martial arts borrowed training techniques from the military.

[omarthefish]

Alright Mr. Borges, maybe you can use your literary genius to explain how borrowing tachniques from the military is relevant to the part of my post that you quoted. In the meantime. Maybe my writing just wasn't elequent enough. Borrow away! Martial artists can "borrow" all the military techniques they want.

Perhaps you could tell us all which style of martial arts it is exactly that has training techniques for arranging large groups of people in rows with pole arms intermingles with an equally large group of people with shields? How about even any individual part? Techniques for training large groups of people to resond to commands to march in specific directions? Group formations? Pulling people down from horses? Off of motorcylcles? Or better yet, since this was a talk about the WC pole and I was criticising it's comparison to the use of the medieval pike, maybe you could point out which pole techniques seem to be "borrowed" from such a scenario. I'm really excited to hear how a bunch of guys in Fotshan China managed to borrow training methods from medieval England but I'd be satisfied to just learn of any similarities at all between the use of the WC pole and the English pike.

:D

p.s. Use small words please as I truly can't read and all. ;)

[omarthefish]

Thanks for engaging. I missed that you actually suggested a few differences in this post. When I saw the big long line of dashes I think I thought you were moving on to address someone else and didn't really take a good look.




How are they different?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apart from the boat versus foot soldier and horsemen origins---
You have to learn good nwing chun pole work- it is not that common.
Even other southern styles like hung gar uses the pole differently.
Dont have time for a dissertation- but basically some short notes might help.

Short notes indeed. But so far this only seems to suggest that you are kind of seeing the thing through WC colored glasses. EVERY style will have it's own particularities and training methods but the certain basic ideas will remain. You suggested on your own that any stick will do so what basically defines the weapon. You suggested it needs a certain length and from the WC pole I have seen so far I can tell it's mostly used one ended. You don't swith it up or do twirls. Basically one end is the striking end and the other is the end you hold. Is any of that not true?



The pole is integrated into the wing chun body structure in its own wing chun way.
The role of the front and back hands are quite different from most spear work..
Those two points are just starters.

More specific to my point though, how would you change this "wing chun way" of integrating the weapon into the body structure if there was a pointy blad attatched to the end? NOT a chopping blade or a slashing one (although you could make somewhat superficial slashes with the tip) but basically a 6 inch sword at the end. Would that be more or less simlar than if you attatched a hook to the end?

The pertinant question is not "How different is the WC method from the Hung Gar method?" but rather "How is the WC pole method different from the WC spear method?"

Haven't you been taught to abstract the principles of the weapon? Otherwise, how would you use "anything appropriately longer than a stick" as you put it?


And the hand and structure is energized in new ways by proper pole usage (where the pole doesnt use you).


This is the primary reason for spear training being continued in most northern arts like Xing Yi or Baji today.

So far we still have a perfect match between spear and pole. I expect there are some differences but none have been mentioned so far. I expect the differences that will eventually be mentioned will be subtle and those of emphasis only.

[Edmund]

Alright Mr. Borges, maybe you can use your literary genius to explain how borrowing tachniques from the military is relevant to the part of my post that you quoted. In the meantime. Maybe my writing just wasn't elequent enough. Borrow away! Martial artists can "borrow" all the military techniques they want.


YOU claimed the pike analogy was flawed because it was not a personal fighting weapon and required little martial arts skill.

The argument made was that the military training techniques were borrowed. The distinction being that the martial artists incorporate an outside idea into the existing martial art. NOT that the art came from the military.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You can't even get the dates of modern arts right, why should we trust you talking about 2500? :p :D

Aikido goes back to the 1920s, as does judo (in fact longer)... which is longer than 50 years!

In the oldest written history on the planet which is Japan's Nihonshiki there is mention of a grappling/throwing art. Since this book also mentions lots of things with Chinese influence and at that time there was no animosity between the two cultures there would be no reason to obscure it if it came from China. This art developed into sumai which became sumo and which arguably is the origin of jujutsu. I say arguably because there is no direct historical evidence, just as there is no evidence to suggest this mythical art of yours from 2500 years ago existed.

If you can't provide a link to your 'fact' perhaps you can tell me which book you read it in, or who traced it back so far.

Again, I and the Martial Arts world are eagerly waiting for you answer... but since you've just talked **** since the last time you asked, I'm not holding my breath.

OK, so I am off about 25 years or so. It is still less than a century. There are a lot of other forms that are no older. The stuff you are quoting is nothing more than the stuff I am quoting, because there are so many different histories written in the past 100 years, mostly in the past 25 or 30 years really, that have little in common with the facts. Like I said, believe what you want. You can not prove it one way or the other. All you can do is quote another version than mine, because what I am saying is nothing more than what I have read, and that being by proffessors of the art, just like you. As far as I am concerned, Japanese Jujitsu evolved directly from a form of Chinese grappling kung fu, and Wing Chun kung fu originated on a boat. Unless of course you can actually prove this is wrong.

[Vajramusti]

I think I thought you were moving on to address someone else and didn't really take a good look.

((Ok))





Short notes indeed. But so far this only seems to suggest that you are kind of seeing the thing through WC colored glasses.
((This a wing chun forum supposedly-and my glasses are pretty clear))

EVERY style will have it's own particularities and training methods but the certain basic ideas will remain.

((Little genetic variances make for great differences in the outcomes. And lowest common denominators may not help much in understanding a sytem))
))

You suggested on your own that any stick will do so what basically defines the weapon.

((If you understand and are experienced in wing chun usage of the pole. You cant go running around witha 8 foot teak pole in an urban area these days))

)) You suggested it needs a certain length and from the WC pole I have seen so far I can tell it's mostly used one ended. You don't swith it up or do twirls. Basically one end is the striking end and the other is the end you hold. Is any of that not true?

((Your assumptions and guess work))





More specific to my point though, how would you change this "wing chun way" of integrating the weapon into the body structure if there was a pointy blad attatched to the end? NOT a chopping blade or a slashing one (although you could make somewhat superficial slashes with the tip) but basically a 6 inch sword at the end. Would that be more or less simlar than if you attatched a hook to the end?

((I would adapt to what is available and use it- when I want to))

"How is the WC pole method different from the WC spear method?"

((Adaptation is a hallmark of good wing chun. ))

Haven't you been taught to abstract the principles of the weapon?

((Not following your patronizing question))

Otherwise, how would you use "anything appropriately longer than a stick" as you put it?

((See above- adptation is a hallmark of good wing chun))



This is the primary reason for spear training being continued in most northern arts like Xing Yi or Baji today.

((Not really interested in XingYi or Baji. Wing chun is a demanding mistress))

So far we still have a perfect match between spear and pole.

((You apparently have convinced yourself))

Joy Chaudhuri

[omarthefish]

YOU claimed the pike analogy was flawed because it was not a personal fighting weapon and required little martial arts skill.

The argument made was that the military training techniques were borrowed. The distinction being that the martial artists incorporate an outside idea into the existing martial art. NOT that the art came from the military.

Yes. It still is. I am kind of baffled that you don't see it. You're "counterpoint" is a non-sequetir. It doesn't respond to my point at all. To whit, how does borrowing military training techniques somehow imply a connection between the group tactics of pike use to dismount riders and the individual practices developed within the WC tradition for the use of the long pole? As to the assertion that "martial artists incorporate an outside idea into the existing martial art", state specifically what aspect of English pike use to dismount cavalry or even similar tactics within Chinese history that have been incoporated to WC pole work?

If you can draw a connection betwen the two then I can give you credit for having added something intelligible to the discussion. So far, you have failed to draw any connection whatsoever.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vajramusti,

((Little genetic variances make for great differences in the outcomes. And lowest common denominators may not help much in understanding a sytem))

You still haven't named a single "little genetic variance" between SPEAR and WC POLE. This is not an argument really...not yet. IF you can start naming signifigant differences between WC pole work and spear work THEN we can start to argue....or not. (You never know. I might agree with you. :eek: )


((If you understand and are experienced in wing chun usage of the pole. You cant go running around witha 8 foot teak pole in an urban area these days))

I am merely referring to your own post #31:

Once one learns the pole- no longer needs the pole- anything appropriately longer than a stick will do.Other objects will do.

What is your point. YOU alluded to the idea that generalities can be made of weapons. I assumed you meant that an object similar to a pole (like say...a spear) could be used in the same way. If that wasn't your point with the part of your own post I just quoted for reference, what was?

)) You suggested it needs a certain length and from the WC pole I have seen so far I can tell it's mostly used one ended. You don't swith it up or do twirls. Basically one end is the striking end and the other is the end you hold. Is any of that not true?

((Your assumptions and guess work))

So which part is wrong? You simply imply that what I stated is not true and that I am ignorant of how the long pole is used but fail to state a single part of my "assumptions and guesswork" that was innacurate. I'll make it simple and list them separately so you could say which one's are wrong:

1. Mostly used one ended. In other words, you don't often strike with alternating ends of the weapon. You hold one end and hit people with the other.

2. You don't switch your grip from one end of the pole to the other.

3. You don't twirl it.

I ask you for the second time, is any of that not true. Just saying that this is my "assumptions and guess work" does not indicate that it is not 100% correct.

((I would adapt to what is available and use it- when I want to))

So you can name no specific ways whatsoever that a spear should be used differently from a long pole? That's my point.

((Adaptation is a hallmark of good wing chun. ))

That's true but isn't particularly relevant to my question so I'll ask it again:
"How is the WC pole method different from the WC spear method?"

Haven't you been taught to abstract the principles of the weapon?

((Not following your patronizing question))

Not patronizing. It's rhetorical. That means, it wasn't really a question. It was a statement framed as a question. A rhetorical question presumes that the listener knows the answer already.

((See above- adptation is a hallmark of good wing chun))

That's a nice mantra. Completely useless without specifics. I have you a specific. A spear. HOW would you adapt pole movements to use with a spear?

((Not really interested in XingYi or Baji. Wing chun is a demanding mistress))

Hey know! I thought you said you weren't wearing WC colored glasses! You lied to me.....I feel so hurt and dissapointed. ;) See, earlier you tried to emphasise the uniuque role that pole training has in WC but now you are saying that you really don't know or even care for that matter how weapons such as the spear are used in the context of various other martial arts styles known for it's use.

((You apparently have convinced yourself))

Well it's been easy so far as no one has raised any counterpoints. :p

[Liddel]

There is no evidence to say that jujutsu came from any Chinese form.
End of song, end of story.


Well i guess we cant believe it then, Nor can we believe in Jesus, because what evidence there is of this popular figure in history, remains very subjective just like that on the origin of grappling :rolleyes:

I offer no personal opinion on this other than to say Read the book "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts".

This book purportedly written by authorities on fighting arts in general, put foward the idea that grappling came from the chinesse. It researches the origin of many fighting arts looking at places such as India - China - Japan and Burma.
An interesting read.

The two authors whos names i forget at the mo, are actually students of a few Japanese arts each (So no bias towards the chinesse on thier part).

So we have many opinions around the world that support both sides of the coin.
But hey this thread is about the POLE :cool:

I like the Pole / spear analogy - it hits closer to home than the other examples out there for ME.

The only thing i see seperating the two is the dominating forces at work.
The spear being sharp cuts - and requires less force from the user than a pole on its own.

The Lok Dim Boon relies on body energy (made by you) sent down the pole not by momentum of movement alone ( Dan Kwan anyone ?) and the natural force of the woods - weight strenght etc.

Relying on less momentum of movement than one would use in the spear, but dam close IMO.

[Liddel]

:) All this is so subjective ! why are people so serious ?

[AndrewS]

Hey Omar,

you pick up any baji pole/spear work yet? I remain pretty impressed at the similarites between the pole exercises in baji and Wing Chun- comparing the stuff up on Tony Yang's site to what I've seen from a bunch of lines of Wing Chun. Jim Fung's weapons book is a nice place to start if you get a chance to look.

Personally, I tend to agree with you that people who want to use a 8-10' piece of lumber as a weapon would probably fix something sharp at the end of it, and that the thing has hung around because it's a nice training tool. For weapons combat I'll take a 6-7' evenly balanced staff over one of these tapered monstrosities any day- the ability to change angle and range combined with decent reach is, in my estimation, superior for combat, if there isn't something sharp on the end of the 8-10' thing.

As to differences between spear and pole work- pretty simple- how you apply force will be a bit different. As an escrima guy, I get ****ed when people tell me the stick is a representation of a blade. Training as if the stick is a blade tends to lead to weak, wrist powered hits which depend on an imagined edge. Train as if the stick is a stick; learn to deliver power with it; then train with the stick as if it's a blade- focusing the power on an imagined edge. This being kept in mind, a spear is generally gonna be used against people in armor, so you'll cultivate a sharp force to penetrate with, then drive in, essentially trying to hammer the point in - a common technique in western martial arts. Check <http://www.schlachtschule.org/> for some examples.

Perhaps we should divide the topic further
-pole vs. armor
-pole vs. unarmored
-spear vs. armor
-spear vs. unarmored.

Later,

Andrew

[omarthefish]

The only thing i see seperating the two is the dominating forces at work.
The spear being sharp cuts - and requires less force from the user than a pole on its own.


I like that you have a specific point for me to look at but really it suggests that you have worked with the pole but not the spear. Spears don't cut. They stab. The Guan Dao cuts. The spear doesn't, at least not well. I do agree that the spear requires less force in stabbing but the spear is generally trained today for the way it teaches you how to generate power.



The Lok Dim Boon relies on body energy (made by you) sent down the pole not by momentum of movement alone ( Dan Kwan anyone ?) and the natural force of the woods - weight strenght etc.

Relying on less momentum of movement than one would use in the spear, but dam close IMO.

Again, that's exactly how you work with a spear. There's no "momentum" involved. It's not a bludgening weapon and not one that swings in big arcs. Spear is "point and shoot" with small sharp deflecting motions to bounce the other guy off line. There are more flowery spear forms out there but the basic thing is to just point it at someone and stab using vaious jin to "feel" the other guys weapon through the shaft.

The difference I can see is actually the mirror opposite of what you described. There are more "sharp cuts" with a staff/pole. Technically, no blade = no cut but the motion, the action of the weapon is still cutting. You can use the pole to smack someone like you would with a staff. You can do that with a spear too but the addition of the metal tip makes stabbing a potential kill vs. "cutting" or "smacking" just an injury. It prejudices the user more towards stabbing.

Really, spear tips are not effective at slashing or cutting. They basically just stab.

[Vajramusti]

Well it's been easy so far as no one has raised any counterpoints.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good for you!

[omarthefish]

Hey Omar,

you pick up any baji pole/spear work yet? I remain pretty impressed at the similarites between the pole exercises in baji and Wing Chun- comparing the stuff up on Tony Yang's site to what I've seen from a bunch of lines of Wing Chun. Jim Fung's weapons book is a nice place to start if you get a chance to look.

Nope. Not yet. I've got my hands full with Taijiquan right now. AFAIK, next weapon for me is probably going to be a Taiji sword form of some sort. My teacher doesn't use the long pole training things. He's got the Baji spear but I'm not aware of him having passed it on to anyone at all so far. He only mentioned the sword to me because we've talked briefly about going in for govt. certification in the "duan" system. Kind of like a CCP black belt. The national sports dept. gives you a ranking. For that I need to show at least 2 weapons. Right now I only have Baji Dao.

Skipping the parts we agree on an on to the new points you brought up:


As to differences between spear and pole work- pretty simple- how you apply force will be a bit different. As an escrima guy, I get ****ed when people tell me the stick is a representation of a blade. Training as if the stick is a blade tends to lead to weak, wrist powered hits which depend on an imagined edge. Train as if the stick is a stick; learn to deliver power with it; then train with the stick as if it's a blade- focusing the power on an imagined edge. This being kept in mind, a spear is generally gonna be used against people in armor, so you'll cultivate a sharp force to penetrate with, then drive in, essentially trying to hammer the point in - a common technique in western martial arts. Check <http://www.schlachtschule.org/> for some examples.

Now THAT's the kind of answer I was hoping to draw out of Vajramusti, especially the last part. It's something I hadn't really thought about but I think is pretty valid now that you mention it.

Not completely sure about the armour thing. It certainly shaped the evolution of the usage but by the late Qing and the early republican era, it had already achieved a cultural status that made it a primary dueling weapon. The two main dueling weapons of China were the spear and the sword. Li Shuwen killed lots of Samurai with his spear though and I confess ignorance on what would be typical dueling attire for the "Samurai" of the early 20th century. Not even sure if they still called them selves that. Li Shuwen was dueling in the early republican era of China.

[omarthefish]

Well it's been easy so far as no one has raised any counterpoints.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good for you!


Still waiting . . .

In the time since I posted that:

AndrewS named a couple specifics.

Liddel suggested a couple that I don't agree with.

You OTOH, have only said that I am wrong and not raised any points of your own. You have dodged every question and answered only with the vaguary that "in WC we prize adaptation" or somesuch.

[Vajramusti]

Hey know! I thought you said you weren't wearing WC colored glasses! You lied to me.....I feel so hurt and dissapointed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Omar- you might want to read more carefully. I said that this is a wing chun forum and my spectacles are pretty clear.You draw a wrong inference- that I am not using a wing chun POV .Precisely the opposite is the case. I am confident that you will recover from your hurt and disappointment. Cheer up-Tomorrow is another day.

[omarthefish]

That is very sybolic of why most WC is such garbage today.

insuarity

The lack of a broader perspective. It's like inbreeding. How are you supposed to develope any real understanding of what you do without the greater context? How can you say anything meaningful about WC at all without drawing comparisons to other arts? Without real and serious research into what people outside of your little WC circle are doing it is not possible to understand what YOU are doing.

As there is no WC spear form, that I am aware of anyways, how is it possible to make any kind of comparitive analysis without reference to other styles?

You statement:



((Not really interested in XingYi or Baji. Wing chun is a demanding mistress))

Was in reponse to my statement:

This is the primary reason for spear training being continued in most northern arts like Xing Yi or Baji today.

You dismissed the information on how spear is used because it came from a non-WC source. :rolleyes: What other inference is there to make here? :confused:

[Edmund]

Yes. It still is. I am kind of baffled that you don't see it. You're "counterpoint" is a non-sequetir. It doesn't respond to my point at all. To whit, how does borrowing military training techniques somehow imply a connection between the group tactics of pike use to dismount riders and the individual practices developed within the WC tradition for the use of the long pole? As to the assertion that "martial artists incorporate an outside idea into the existing martial art", state specifically what aspect of English pike use to dismount cavalry or even similar tactics within Chinese history that have been incoporated to WC pole work?

If you can draw a connection betwen the two then I can give you credit for having added something intelligible to the discussion. So far, you have failed to draw any connection whatsoever.


Omar,

You made the argument that the pike theory was flawed stating 2 things:
1. It was not a personal fighting weapon.
2. It doesn't require martial arts skills.

These DO NOT address the pike theory at all because I suggested that the pike training only influenced the existing martial arts. In other words, you didn't understand the theory that was put forward which is why I said learn to read.

You still don't.

The theory is this: Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.

Concerning the English pike and WC pole connection: tjwingchun said, his student saw similarity in the weapons and how they did their techniques at an exhibition.
His student drew the connection originally. I merely agreed and gave my theory as to why.

[Edmund]

The difference I can see is actually the mirror opposite of what you described. There are more "sharp cuts" with a staff/pole. Technically, no blade = no cut but the motion, the action of the weapon is still cutting. You can use the pole to smack someone like you would with a staff. You can do that with a spear too but the addition of the metal tip makes stabbing a potential kill vs. "cutting" or "smacking" just an injury. It prejudices the user more towards stabbing.

Really, spear tips are not effective at slashing or cutting. They basically just stab.

You finally have an inkling of what the difference is between WC pole and a spear.

There's no spear tip so no prejudice towards stabbing. There's no blade so you basically are using the last foot or so to bludgeon someone with no care about where the blade is facing.

The concept is that if you can powerfully strike (and coordinate) with the tip of a very long heavy pole in training, you should be able to do it with a shorter one that you could actually wield as a personal weapon.

[CFT]

Omar,

Ray Van Raamsdonk used to visit these forums but he doesn't seem to post these days. You may want to contact him for his thoughts on the Wing Chun pole and the spear.

This is their adaptation of Wing Chun pole to spear: http://www.springtimesong.com/wcforms5Spear.htm

[omarthefish]

Thanks for the link CFT.

Edmund,

lol@your staggering ignorance about how a spear is used. Have you ever even seen a spear? The blade doesn't "face" any direction at all. It points.

Also pointing out that despite your impliued value in literacy and all that you failed to read what I wrote above. I actually suggested that the action of "cutting" is more relevant to the pole that to the spear. That's the opposite of what you claimed I "finnaly understood" (even though this was information I put out. You and Vajra apparently have no information of your own to present. The only specific attribute(s) of the weapons you have mentioned so far is what you misinterpreted from one of my own posts. :D

And my point about the pike remains because:

1. You have STILL not suggested a SINGLE technique or training method shared by those who use each of the two weapons.

2. You have STILL not suggested where or how southern Chinese civilians had the opportunity to watch and be influenced by the tactics and training methods of BRITISH soldiers from several centuries earlier.

Furthermore these two "points":

1. It was not a personal fighting weapon.
2. It doesn't require martial arts skills.

Taken in context are extremely relevant. They were part of a description of how the pike is used in contrast to the way the long pole is used. Here's what was mentioned about the pike usage in the original post:


Simply to knock men off horseback, once they have been knocked off then they are vulnerable to the short double swords. It was some years after I began teaching this theory for justification, that one of my students told me of an exhibition at the Royal Armoury in Leeds, UK, showing how the English pikestaff was utilised, a similar ten foot weapon, except it has a hook on the end, used to remove knights from their horses.


Seeing as there is no hook on the end of the WC pole, how is it supposed to be used for that purpose? I keep coming back to the same points over and over again. There's just no technical overlap. Name the technique? Where is it in the form? ANYTHING at all. The reason a pike has a hook on it is to *drum roll* hook onto and then drag down the rider. It also has a pointy spear tip so that you can plant the but end in the ground and allow a charging horse to impale its self. Now go back home and pull out your trusty WC pole, review the techniques you have learned and find the one where you hook and pull with the tip that has no hooking thing attatched to it. Then you can go find the part where you plant the but end on the ground to brace against a charging animal.

If you can do either of those, THEN you have a point.

No wonder Knifefighter likes to troll this forum. Most of you guys are just too easy.

[omarthefish]

Just finished the link.

Excellent. That's pretty much what I was thinking and why I suggested the comparison. I wouldn't have thought it would be so much like pulling teeth to get some guys on a WC forum to see it too. It took me a couple minutes to get the link open as I had to open a proxy server. The site isn't accesable from here for some reason. In a nutshel:


The 6 1/2 point spear is derived from the Wing Chun Long Pole Movements. The key attacking movement of the spear is the thrust or poke. The Key defensive movements are Tan (inside high deflection), Fook (outside high deflection) and Bong (tip pointing down rotational deflection). Other movements of the spear include Gan (pressing), Lan (to bar), Jum (to sink), Dim (point hit or touching hit), Huen (to circle) and Jut (to Jerk). Spear fighting is somewhat similar to fencing. It is possible that the entire Wing Chun art is based on the art of the spear. In China the spear was the supreme weapon of choice when room allowed it. Spear work in China was very sophisticated. wing Chun's techniques are the essence of this weapon. The Long pole is most commonly associated with Wing Chun as a result of the Red Junk influence. The men prefer to use a long pole in order to strengthen the muscles so that punches are more forceful. Ladies prefer to fight with a spear because the long pole is not a practical fighting weapon if you are of smaller stature or older. The spear includes the 6 1/2 point form, the sticking spear and then freestyle spear fighting. It is very quick to learn but difficult to master.

I bolded the bits that most succinctly summarized what I have been arguing here but really the whole thing is relevant.

[Vajramusti]

That is very sybolic of why most WC is such garbage today.

-------------------------------------------------------
((sybolic? sic? PS- Sounds as though you did some faulty survey research.I dont know of your level of competence in garbology.
The pole is just an instrument- but its appropriate for some kinds of wing chun training. The person developing wing chun skills-his kearning, practice and experimenting with applications is the key. You get out what you put into it.With pole related wing chun skill development- one can poke, stab, deflect, break, destroy structures,
lift other weapons up down and other angles, pull. push, go around, make it a long weapon or a short weapon. With the pole skills you can cut if you have a cutting instrument. You can experiment against other weapons users. Against a gun a pole or a spear has quite limited uses. Judgements, skills and awareness,
and timing- the individual is the key. Wing chun is not for mass production or army training IMO))

joy chaudhuri

[AndrewS]

Omar writes:


Now THAT's the kind of answer I was hoping to draw out of Vajramusti, especially the last part. It's something I hadn't really thought about but I think is pretty valid now that you mention it.

Not completely sure about the armour thing. It certainly shaped the evolution of the usage but by the late Qing and the early republican era, it had already achieved a cultural status that made it a primary dueling weapon. The two main dueling weapons of China were the spear and the sword. Li Shuwen killed lots of Samurai with his spear though and I confess ignorance on what would be typical dueling attire for the "Samurai" of the early 20th century. Not even sure if they still called

As far as the spear in dueling- what weapon are we talking about - the 6-7' spear seen today, or things like WC's long pole and baji's pole- which I've seen more appropriately termed as a lance? The little wushu waxwood twigs are basically as different a weapon from 9' hardwood monsters, as a foil is from a hand and a half sword.

The whole 'learn one long weapon and all other things manifest as it' is garbage. Some mechanics and strategies transfer from very long to long to medium to short to empty hand to grappling, but making statements about the pole granting expertise in other weapons is truly disingenuous and reveals only an ignorance of weapons training. A 2-3lb difference in weapon weight can completely change the dynamics of its use- foil vs. long sword, stick vs. club or axe, without even starting to talk about changing the length of the lever arm on you.

The western martial arts stuff is pretty cool. There's a big overlap between the armored grappling and knife work and some classical JJ stuff that makes *no* sense on an unarmored guy. I'm not sure about the role of armor and armored combat in CMA. I'm not sure what was standard.

Andrew

P.S. Don't expect any more from Joy than vague platitudes, arguments from authority, and ungrounded assertions, 'cos you're not going to get it.

[Vajramusti]

P.S. Don't expect any more from Joy than vague platitudes, arguments from authority, and ungrounded assertions, 'cos you're not going to get it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well! :-

joy c

[Liddel]

I like that you have a specific point for me to look at but really it suggests that you have worked with the pole but not the spear. Spears don't cut. They stab. Really, spear tips are not effective at slashing or cutting. They basically just stab.

Well thats fair -
I see cutting and stabbing as one in the same generally - but litterally i stand corrected.
I havent worked with the spear so you can add in the necessary comments about that.

From what ive seen the poke/stab is different between the two weapons, the Lok Dim Boon has the hand positions remain the same generating power from the elbow and body as its put out.
From my limited experience with the spear it seems the poke/stabbing actions have changing hand positions ???

Also the elbow force i send down the pole ( if ive trained enough ) generates an energy that shakes the tip actually applying many mini hits to the opponent.

Where as the spear would be intended to penetrate with one stabbing action.

Im curious - with the pole i was taught it was an extension of your arm, and the point at which your hands grab the pole become the new elbow point.
This makes it easier IMO for one to apply what they know about the hand forms to the Pole, crossing over thier mentallity a little.
Is this similar to the spear ?

Also the position of my hands on the pole seem unique to VT from what ive seen of other styles pole / spear work.
How is the spear generally held ?

In my mind these attributes seperate the forces used in both the spear and the pole.
Though as ive said they are very similar IMO.

Im not here to change minds or prove where the poles come from, im just curious to discuss.:rolleyes:

[Edmund]

Seeing as there is no hook on the end of the WC pole, how is it supposed to be used for that purpose? I keep coming back to the same points over and over again. There's just no technical overlap. Name the technique? Where is it in the form? ANYTHING at all.



You truly don't even care about the topic which is why you continue to rebutt arguments that no one has made because you are that keen on arguing.

There is no hook on the end of the WC pole so why would anyone suggest that it would be used to hook anything. No one has. There is similarly no spear tip.

There is no technique where you stick the butt into the ground. No one claimed that either.

The theory is this: Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.

[omarthefish]

Edmund,

That's what a pike does! I don't know why anyone would suggest that but there it is on the very first post of this thread. That's just how pikes are used. Either planted against the ground to withstand a charge or the hook is used to pull people down. If you argue that "Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.", THAT's what you are arguing.

Liddel,

The hand placement and particular way of sending power down the shaft definately does seem fairly unique. I'm not following how your poke is different from your stab unless you are just comparing the WC poke to the "other style" stab with a spear. It's true that the typical thing is to hold the shaft all the way at the but end with the rear hand and thrust while the other hand is allowed to slide back and forth essentially aiming while the rear hand expresses the power generatied by the rest of the body.

Also the elbow force i send down the pole ( if ive trained enough ) generates an energy that shakes the tip actually applying many mini hits to the opponent.

That's the same as what most people do with the spear. That's the part that is found most usefull for crossover to emptyhand. With a spear you would not be hitting the opponent though. That kind of "dou jin" as it's called, is more likely applied to the other persons weapon and then followed with a stab. The smaller and shorter the better. It's like a pak-sau to punch combination. The "shake" is the pak sau. The stab is the punch. You could also think of it as coming in with a tan from the outside. The same mechanics though, in empty hand are one of the ways to generate a really short strike with power. That's what most Baji people do. They just get an enourmously long heavy pole (called a "big spear" but they don't bother putting the tip on it) and only practice producing that "shake" from various different movements.


Im curious - with the pole i was taught it was an extension of your arm, and the point at which your hands grab the pole become the new elbow point.
This makes it easier IMO for one to apply what they know about the hand forms to the Pole, crossing over thier mentallity a little.
Is this similar to the spear ?


I honestly can't follow the metaphore. I don't truly get the way you guys talk about "elbow power". The only "elbow power" in my experience is the degree to which you can unify your elbow with your knee. "Waist power" gets a lot more talk in my circles.


How is the spear generally held ?


Most commonly the same as on the picture that is in the article linked above but you wouldn't generally see the lead arm locked like that and standing that upright would be very rare. More common to see a 60-40 stance or even an "empty stance " I guess it the spear is being "shaken" upwards at the angle displayed in the pic. "The Spear God" Li Shuwen was famous for taking duels while holding the spear on one arm only. He would tuck the but end under his armpit and cradle it, palm up, with the same arm and not even bother using the other arm. Basically at the first move he pretty much always had the spear tip at the other guys throat hence his nickname "The Spear God" (shenqiang Li Shuwen).

[k gledhill]

POLE TERMS according to the late GM W S Leung

english pronunciation:
1. Fung Lung Cheung
2. Ping Cheung
3. Leung Jee
4. Lau Soi
5. Kam Quan
6. Dang Quan
1/2. Che Cheung

1. 'fong lung cheung' - "releasing the dragon spearing-action" - this refers to the thrusting/striking action in the form.

2. 'ping cheung' - "level spearing-action" - this refers to the pushing action of the form, similar to the 'Lan Sau' in the empty-hand forms.

3. 'leung yi' - "two moves" - this is the action that resembles the 'Jaat Sau' technique in the empty-hand forms. It is referred to as 'Leung Yi' because it enables us to defend and be placed in a position of attack within one action.

4. 'lau soi' - "moving/stirring the water" - the action that is the pole form's equivalent of the 'Bong Sau' action.

5. 'kam gwan' - "covering pole" - the action that follows 'Lau Soi' where the pole covers the opponent's weapon, knocking it downwards.

6. 'dang gwan' - "ascending pole" - this is the arcing/lifting action done at the start of the pole form, and again towards the end, a 'Laan Sau'-type motion that can be applied offensively or defensively.

0.5 'che cheung' - "descending spearing-action" - the backward/downward action at the very end of the pole form, used to intercept the opponent's weapon (or the opponent's legs) when the attack comes in on a low line from the rear of the stance.

[Edmund]

Edmund,

That's what a pike does! I don't know why anyone would suggest that but there it is on the very first post of this thread. That's just how pikes are used. Either planted against the ground to withstand a charge or the hook is used to pull people down. If you argue that "Martial artists sees military training of troops that are using the pike. They like the ideas and exercises and incorporate them into their individual practice with the pole.", THAT's what you are arguing.



Well my definition of a pike in general, and I believe it's a common one, would be a very long spear held by infantry, no hook.

Having a hook, or sticking it in the ground may be great ideas, but NOT what I or others were referring to when talking about the pike.

We are talking about a pole that is a lot longer and heavier than the spear in that article you quoted.

[omarthefish]

Well how would you relate it to the WC pole then.

I did some googling to see what you meant. It was a little tricky to get past the fish since that is apparently the most googled meaning of the word "pike". :D

So you mean the super-ultra long spears. No hook. Fine. Those are the ones used either in phalanx style from behind shields. That's why they are so long. You can stand behind the shield guys and together, the pikeman and the shield people make a big bristly porcupine thing that moves forward. Horseman who would attempt to charge the ranks would get their horses impaled. The pikes would still have to be braced on the ground for this to work.

So in keeping with your definition of the weapon, what paralells can you draw between any of the WC pole work and the pike. Is there any technique or training method at all which you can point to that is common to both weapons?

I was thinking something like this:

http://therionarms.com/armor/polearm2.jpg

I can see now you meant more something like this:

http://www.imperialweapons.com/polearms/13pike.html

[tjwingchun]

Well I have been away for a while and I think it is about time I came back into this thread as I started it!:D

My referencing to the English pikestaff was simply that in my mind that as a function in a battle (technical overlap/parallel), they were both used to counter people on horseback, the time of the English pikestaff the knights wore heavier armour and the war horse was a specifically bred for the purpose and much heavier, so the development of the pikestaff over the years became more specific to its particular task.

Horse & Horse Armor. A horse was the knight's most important purchase - costing as much as an entire year's income. The medieval warhorse was called a destrier (based on the Latin word dexter for "right-hand side") and needed to be able to carry not only the knight with his roughly 60 lbs. of armor, but that of his own, as well. The most prized destriers came from France, Italy and Spain. Horses frequently also wore trappers, decorated cloth coverings, that displayed the knight's coat of arms. The armor was designed to protect the horse's rear side, as well as his neck, back and face. When rearing up, well-trained warhorses could also use their iron horseshoes to attack any foot soldier underneath.

from http://www.pbs.org/wnet/warriorchallenge/print/print_knights_profile.html

Whereas those popular in the region were most likely to be of Mongol origin.

Genghis Khan. Mongol horses were small, but their riders were lightly clad and they moved with greater speed.

from http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h11mon.htm

My point was not that there was any influence at all just a re-inforcement of my 'theory' of countering riders, as with many instances worldwide, when like minded people consider the same questions they come up with similar solutions.

Considering that Wing Chun was developed around the time of the beginning of the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644 AD) we have to take into account the nature of personal safety, lawlessness and many other aspects that make up the character of the time. Much in the same way that in England there were the highwaymen that made it an unsafe place to travel between towns.

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/England-History/Highwaymen.htm

It does not take too much of a leap of thought that a traveller might prepare themselves with weapons that would allow them to defend against an attack that would not just be a 'civilised' mugging, and that a practical system such as Wing Chun being a product of that time might have in place methods relating to this scenario.

If faced with a mounted assailant I can imagine with ease using the tip of the pole to knock a lance or weapon to one side and dropping into the low horse stance driving my momentum and energy into the point, with both my arms in rigid positions holding the pole to receive the forthcoming collision, then either fending off the continued momentum of the attacker or releasing the pole to continue the attack with the swords.

All supposition, yes, the product of my imagination, yes, can I prove anything, no, am I bothered, no.

I use the visualisation of an application to get a student to 'feel' how the pole could be used in reality, the strength of the structure, the focus of energy from back leg to pole tip. Hence my focus on the horseback scenario rather than the 'pole verus pole', and I repeat that in a pole contest I would be more intersted in just getting past the tip of the pole and dealing with the user, not 'duelling' to test their pole skills.

By keeping the usage simple it allows a student to appreciate what they are doing and trying to achieve, how their bodies are reacting in the collision and letting the pole remain a fundemental training tool in the Wing Chun system. Rather than a cumbersome, antiquated dust gathering weapon stood in the corner of the room.

Realistically there is no point in discussing the merits or functionality of ancient weapons, these days pump action shotguns, AK47's and Uzi's are more traditional weapons of conflict, but in the UK they tend to be frowned upon when carried in public.

What we can learn from practicing with weapons such as the pole are the abstract usage of energies and the analytical skills required to understand their intricacies, more theoretical than practical but never the less important developmental processes.

[CFT]

I just can't see an 8-9' pole as a convenient self defence weapon, in terms of transporting it around.

Now a 6' pole/staff can be used as a walking aid, carrying goods to market (basket on one end or both), etc. It is altogether a more manageable object.

I think that using the long Wing Chun pole to unseat a charging rider does not chime with Wing Chun pole practice. There is still considerable momentum to deal with - if one does not ground the pole, like a pike, then the pole would just shoot out of your hands.

OK, speculation on my part. But here is an experiment that might simulate conditions, though it might not match the real forces. Take a heavy swinging punchbag and try and stop it with a pole thrust. Can you still keep hold of the pole?

[anerlich]

I just can't see an 8-9' pole as a convenient self defence weapon, in terms of transporting it around.

But what if you're attacked by a horse-riding assailant? This is as real a possibility for you as it is for me, no doubt. Does the inconvenience outweigh the potential risk of doing otherwise?

Perhaps the pole needs to be updated so that it can be used against assailants driving Humvees and Mack trucks. You gotta move with the times.


these days pump action shotguns, AK47's and Uzi's are more traditional weapons of conflict, but in the UK they tend to be frowned upon when carried in public

I reckon you'd get a fair bit of stick (no pun intended) if you tried to board the Tube at rush hour carrying a 9' pole as well.

[Edmund]

So in keeping with your definition of the weapon, what paralells can you draw between any of the WC pole work and the pike. Is there any technique or training method at all which you can point to that is common to both weapons?

I was thinking something like this:

http://therionarms.com/armor/polearm2.jpg

I can see now you meant more something like this:

http://www.imperialweapons.com/polearms/13pike.html

Essentially that length but perhaps a bit thicker and heavier.

So the basic training exercises for troops would be along the lines of getting them to hold their heavy long pike horizontal, taking their grip at the end, getting into their horse stance, moving the thing around etc.

If you know the pole form, you would see how it would translate to a military style of training of the pike. It's very simple with only 7 moves and not much foot movement or changing directions. Nowdays a lot of people do the form with a smaller pole because it's more practical. There's no set length but I believe it used to be fairly long and heavy.

[tjwingchun]

I just can't see an 8-9' pole as a convenient self defence weapon, in terms of transporting it around.

If you had a local problem with thieving/murdering horesmen, you may consider it worth the inconvenience, alternatively if you are travelling through a wooded area and you had notice of the attack then trimming a young tree down with your swords would only take a few minutes, would not need a lathe as it would already have natural narrowing to the tip. (What an imagination eh? I think I should get out more:D )


Now a 6' pole/staff can be used as a walking aid, carrying goods to market (basket on one end or both), etc. It is altogether a more manageable object.

I cannot argue with that, when I first started we used to practice a 6' pole and carrying it around on public transport to get to classes it was not easy but manageable, but 9' 6" would be a nightmare, but when needs must!


I think that using the long Wing Chun pole to unseat a charging rider does not chime with Wing Chun pole practice. There is still considerable momentum to deal with - if one does not ground the pole, like a pike, then the pole would just shoot out of your hands.

How would you use the Wing Chun pole given its length and weight? and what bells do you practice with. :confused: I am definitely interested how you envisage using such a cumbersome weapon against an aggressive attacker, the leverage sideways is weak so the main threat must be the driving thrust of the tip.

If you are holding the pole correctly, front arm straight and braced, rear arm holding the pole at the end and held tight against the armpit of the front arm, with the elbow kept tight into the chest forming the strongest structure across the shoulders then with the low horse stance when you apply your energies into the pole, the reactant energy of the collision should be 'grounded' through your stance.


OK, speculation on my part. But here is an experiment that might simulate conditions, though it might not match the real forces. Take a heavy swinging punchbag and try and stop it with a pole thrust. Can you still keep hold of the pole?

I practice into my dummy to learn about the reactant energies through the pole and where the energies throughout my body need to be co-ordinated to reinforce the structure to survive the collision.

Again I will reiterate, this is just my personal theory after thinking about the pole for many years, I am not saying it is historically correct only that if I was around at the time it is how I can envisage using the pole, faced with another pole carrier, my instinct would be to throw the pole at them to distract them, get past the tip and beat merry hell out of them, either that or use my swords to put them through a weight loss program.

Why use the pole if you have the swords? What is the scenario which make the pole obviously useful? What are the energies created in the pole form, their strength and direction? Where are there weapons of similar ilk and what are their uses? Does the pole have a realistic function in todays Wing Chun?

All those questions that came to my mind, when I teach any aspect of Wing Chun I feel that I must be able to argue logically why the techniques and methods that I put forward to students are there, using simple commonsense reasoning that anyone can understand and not merely because Sifu said Sigung said Grandmaster Yip Man said so.

If I cannot back up what I say with sound concept and principle, then I need to look deeper and search longer until the simplicity shines through and it becomes obvious.

ps. anerlich I believe the police use shotguns with solid cartridges to stop large vehicles by blasting the engine, but I agree with your sentiment of moving with the times which is why my main reasoning as to the function of the pole today is more conceptual rather than functional.

[CFT]

tj,

I probably wasn't clear enough. What I'm saying is that I'm not sure a person using a Wing Chun pole to unseat a rider on a horse can brace themselves enough to still keep hold/control the pole after impact. I admit it is conjecture on my part. I don't have any doubts that the pole can be used against another person moving around on the ground. A charging horse is a fearsome beast, alot of energy and momentum to deal with.

I think pole practice should still be part of modern Wing Chun practice, if not for the actual weapon use then for developmental purposes. I also think that the pole practice should carry over into other long weapons - but not in the sense that you can just pick up any random long weapon and use it ad hoc. The other weapons have to be trained too, but the benefits of the Wing Chun long pole practice should carry through.

[tjwingchun]

tj,
A charging horse is a fearsome beast, alot of energy and momentum to deal with.


I understand your misgivings but the mongol horses are not that big, and as they did not to use much in the way of saddles to hold them on the horses back, the momentum would not have been much more than a person sprinting at you.

http://www.e-mongol.com/mongolia_videos.htm

As opposed to the Shire horse which is more like that used by the knights of old, a truly magnificent animal and with all the armour of both knight and horse, the combined mass would create a significant increase in momentum.

http://www.horseweb.com/client/jv/jv_theshirehorse.htm

However my question still is "How do you envisage using the Wing Chun pole in a real combat scenario?"

[Samurai Jack]

AmanuJRY, good points. As for the jo sparring, we did it in my aikido school about once a month. I can't really comment on how common it is as I haven't been to a representative enough sample of schools, but I have met other aikidoka who do it to some degree and some jojutsuka who did it a lot.



I can vouch for that. We do it twice a week or more. I train some weapon every day for at least an hour. I'm nursing a goose egg over my right eye, and a nasty swollen right thumb from today's Jo class.

[Kapten Klutz]

if you are travelling through a wooded area and you had notice of the attack then trimming a young tree down with your swords would only take a few minutes, would not need a lathe as it would already have natural narrowing to the tip.

I really like the way you're thinking here. Lot's of interesting and informative ideas have come out of this thread, thanks.

At the same time, I don't see why this anti-horseman theory has to rule out the idea of also using the poles on red-junks to fend off unwanted visitors coming over the gangplank or approaching on boats. And I don't see how any of this rules out the idea that the movements are related to spear training. It all seems plausible; the answer could very well be: yes you're all right, and I don't think we'll ever know for sure what actually came first.

[SevenStar]

Jujitsu has been traced back to China some 2500 years ago. Called by another name I am sure, but most of the arts today originate from this single parent art. In fact, most of the forms we see today are 50 years old or less. Like Judo and Aikido, and even Tai Kwan Do.

you should probably clarify that to say most of the eastern arts. However, even among those, JJJ cannot be verifiably traced back to china. the history of jjj is unclear. Some accounts say it hit japan when a chinese kempo master showed three different chin na techniques to 3 different japanese physicians. Some say it was completely a japanese development - there is no conclusive evidence of either, or of any of the other stories.

Judo is more than 50 years old.

aikido is more than 50 years old.

[SevenStar]

Have you ever studied Japanese Jujitsu? I have and I have to say that there are a great many differences in it and the Brazillian Jujitsu.

1. there were at one point in history over 700 ryu of jjj - the fact that the one you studied does little groundwork means nothing.

2. there were several ryu that focused on groundwork, one of which kano trained in and was part of his formulation of judo.

3. bjj actually came from judo, not jjj.

[The Xia]

Mitsuyo Maeda, the teacher of Helio Gracie, learned his Judo during the "Newaza Revolution" when Fusen Ryu Jujutsu (A style with a lot of ground fighting) sensei taught at the Kodokan.

[tjwingchun]

I really like the way you're thinking here. Lot's of interesting and informative ideas have come out of this thread, thanks.

At the same time, I don't see why this anti-horseman theory has to rule out the idea of also using the poles on red-junks to fend off unwanted visitors coming over the gangplank or approaching on boats. And I don't see how any of this rules out the idea that the movements are related to spear training. It all seems plausible; the answer could very well be: yes you're all right, and I don't think we'll ever know for sure what actually came first.

Can't argue about the Red Junk idea either, the defence against cavalry/riders came from looking at other similar weapons throughout the world and was just the way that my mind works as I use references outside Wing Chun looking for similarities to re-inforce MY understanding of MY Wing Chun.

As you say it is history and my view of Wing Chun is more focused toward the future. Another uncertainty, :D

[junmo]

In my original line of WC i was taught that the pole combined a combination of "spear" and regular "staff" techniques. This designated it as a "Generals" weapon as regualr footsoldiers would not get the more advanced techniques. We utilised the "butt" end as a striking tool

We trained with 2 sizes of pole - we drilled a long heavy pole for learning conditioning and stance training.

We used a shorter lighter pole for techique training and dynamic pole on pole interaction. We also used this interaction using the knives against multiple pole attacks from the WC bagua circle (no, not that Bagua). My Sifus pole drills exposed me to take downs with the pole, spearing, crushing and a real eye opener was the application of the pole in an empty hand format (kum na, take downs and strikes)

The pole became part of our training from about 3 months of starting Wing Chun , and in MY experience i would'nt have it any other way. By starting us on the foundations of the pole at such an early stage (in comparision to other styles of WC - not a diss, just my observation) I learnt how to "earth" myself and sink my stance solidly. the rest we all know, body unity, power focus, etc.

Probably the most important aspect taught me was how to move. interaction against a knive opponent gave me "live" footwork and angling, and trained my hands to "go together".

Regardless whether you think it is outdated or not, the pole is more essential to the system than a lot of people give it credit for. Personally i have trained with some senoir practioners who could definitley use the pole techniques in active combat.

I'm training with a differnt lineage in Shanghai (starting sort of from scratch but not really :p ), so I'm not learning their pole form yet, BUT i still drill my original form and techniques in my own time.

[LoneTiger108]

After only reading a few posts here I find a 'junmo' practitioner! Hey there jun mo! I feel that we know eachother lol!

"Personally i have trained with some senoir practioners who could definitley use the pole techniques in active combat."

If this is true, I may have helped to train you!

I have to say that your post is not only a breath of fresh air, it is thought provoking and meaningful. I only hope that I can write just as well Bruv, but I only joined this forum today...

Oh! I almost forgot to mention. ANYONE who has trained in the Lee Shing Family has a rare insight into sick plays and pole techniques as it was, after all, Lee Shings favoured weapon. There is a massive difference in interpretation, maybe even in translation regarding this 'form'.

The Six & Half Point Pole or Six Points & Half Pole. I'll leave that to be discussed.

[southernkf]

Oh what the hell, I can't resist.

Personally, I don't think the pole is a relevant wing chun weapon. By that I mean that I don't see that the weapon was used in wing chun as a realistic weapon for fighting. I certainly don't agree that wing chun used it to attack horse riders. But this is my opinion and many would argue.

My personal belief similar to what has been orally passed down. The pole was imported into wing chun (by Leung Yi Tai). Who knows what useage it had there. I don't believe people on the redboats found the pole to be a desired weapon because they used them in navigation. I just don't see that as a viable justification. As they werer an opera troupe, they probably had access to many weapons aboard the ship that they could have used as well as the pole. I think the pole added some other benifit to the trainers. There is something within the pole training itself that is beneficial to wing chun people. I do not know the pole but I have been shown some very interesting subtleties in the pole that makes me think that the pole helps to develop skills that come into play during wing chun. Perhaps this is just my way of looking at it and it was never intended to be viewed like that, but I can't helpl to believe it was.

And for what it is worth, the Long Pole is a very common weapon in southern styles. Those and the knives. So it doesn't supprise me to find both of those weapons in wing chun. What supprises me is the lack of other common weapons, such as the broadsword. If these people were rebels, it seems they should have more weapons. One could argue you can hide the butterfly knives (though that is not AS easily done), but how do you hide a pole?

Not suggesting this is accurate, but it is my current thoughts on the subject.

[tjwingchun]

Oh what the hell, I can't resist.

Personally, I don't think the pole is a relevant wing chun weapon. By that I mean that I don't see that the weapon was used in wing chun as a realistic weapon for fighting. I certainly don't agree that wing chun used it to attack horse riders. But this is my opinion and many would argue.


What would you have used against a mounted attack? Don't tell me multiple Bong Sau's and soar over the top and drop down from above. :D

[k gledhill]

the pole is very important

[anerlich]

What would you have used against a mounted attack? Don't tell me multiple Bong Sau's and soar over the top and drop down from above.

Grab the arm, bridge and roll, or elbow/knee escape.

Oh, you meant MOUNTED ON HORSEBACK ... such attacks are of course a common problem in moden cities and like eveyone else I've put a huge amount of thought into countering them.

Did they have "horse-jacking" in the old days? I guess they did ...

Seriously, I guess you have to wonder why a system supposedly at least partly (d)evolved for fighting in narrow alleys and confined spaces ended up with a weapon almost long enough to be visible from space, that you need a space the size of a small airport hangar to practice partner drills with.

I guess it's fairly easily disguised as a walking aid or yoke for carrying stuff. But not when it's between 9 and 13 feet long, tapered, with a brass ferrule at the business end.

[junmo]

Hey Lonetiger108,

Is that you Sihing? Welcome to the forum - geez finally we get some more Lee Shing representing on here...I joined the forum after I left London in 2002, thought I might have seen some of you guys on here earlier...would be gret to have some of your insight into pole in here mate.

Cheers

[TenTigers]

The Wing Chun pole is said to be contributed by Jee Siem, who was also responsible for the originating of Hung-Ga.Hung-Ga uses the eight diagram pole, which was developed from the spear, and has many similarities to the Wing Chun pole.

If WC was developed for back alleyway fighting, then I doubt they were facing guys on horseback. The movements of the pole can be used in narrow spaces.

Spears can and do slash and cut, which is why the spear point is six to twelve inches and razor sharp on the edges. If it were only used for piercing, it would be simply a spike, not a double edged blade.

Joy said that there are no similarities between Hung-Ga pole and Wing Chun Pole.
Please tell us the differences, as I have learned both and really do not see much difference at all. Granted, I was taught the WC pole from someone who had not mastered it, but I was taught Hung-Ga's Eight Diagram pole from someone who has a strong rep as being very good with the pole.

Also, I can't find the quote so forgive me, but the person who mentioned that Musahi developed the two-sword style after being beaten by a pole master...
Wing Chun's main weapons are two-swords and a pole. Food for thought perhaps.

Personally, I find the pole perfectly complements the knives-they are polar opposites, one combats the other, long range vs short, power vs speed and movement. Knives develop finesse, the pole develops power.

[Ultimatewingchun]

While I learned a little pole from Moy Yat - hardly any applications were part of the instruction.

With William Cheung in TWC, my experience has been a much different story. Besides the form, applications are taught quite a bit. Haven't really spent that much time sparring/working it - but one such time was a very impromptu sparring match with someone right in front of William Cheung - while he watched - and it went on for a good five minutes or so.

Took place during a break at one of GM Cheung's seminars on the DP.

We were using poles about maybe 6' long.

As far as functionality - the principles, strategies, and techniques can definitely be adapted to fighting with a broom stick, a cane, even a big umbrella.

And it should be no surprise that it's all about protecting/occupying/controlling/going forward to strike on - your "centerline" - which is now the line running down the middle of your body (vertical center-of-mass) as you're standing with your side facing the opponent.

[LoneTiger108]

This has become an interesting thread for two reasons I think:

1. Everybody here seems to want to find the true 'History' of Wing Chuns Pole plays, but have evaded the obvious.
2. It seems to me that most try to devalue the pole without actually having been taught its relevance to the style, let alone how to use it.

Let me start with the 1st point. It actually doesn't matter where you 'think' the 'form' comes from as I believe tjwingchun mentioned a 6 1/2 & 3 1/2 version which to my knowledge is understandable. Yip Man devised the modern techniques by collaborating with other elders at the time, like he also done with the forms, wooden man and knives. Condensing all these complex moves into its simplest form is a massive challenge adn something that should be remembered and respected by all of us! According to old folk stories the most prized piece of equipment in a Martial Art School were its array of Flags. After all they were the schools identity. I'd only like to ask at this point that you consider this idea. A Flag bearer is expert in the Pole and that the history of this weapon may be closely linked to Jee Shim, but it is definately not his work. I hear you mention Leung Yee Tai, the Opera Performer. I hear this all the time but can only say that he is not responsible for the Lee Shing stick or pole plays according to my research, although all of the Red Junk would have been superb Flag technicians!


And the 2nd point is far more interesting. I've heard that maybe the late Wong Shun Leung may have been one of the only students back in the day to really understand the weapon and link its theories into his hands. I can't see why anybody would feel it useless in todays modern society, but I guess that the guys that belive this go to the gym and lift weights (attached to an iron pole lol!) The pole IS your straight line, a definitive central point of focus, just like your fist being thrown 3 times in succession. Its also interesting to note the importance of the number 6, but thats another matter.

I'll leave this to be thought over, but I feel that I have to mention AGAIN that stick plays are not pole plays and you do need to have trained both to understand either! But more importantly Luk Dim Boon Gwun does NOT translate as 61/2 point pole, but this I know has been adopted as the way to refer to the 'form'...

[southernkf]

What would you have used against a mounted attack? Don't tell me multiple Bong Sau's and soar over the top and drop down from above. :D

I wouldn't use wing chun. Wing Chun was not used for battlefield style fighting. The techniques contained in the pole are not devised to work against cavalry. Compare them to those arts. The momentum of a horse and rider would collapse your structure in an instant. When you look at weapons devised for this purpose they have techniques to deal with the charging mass of a horse. Often the butt of the weapon is driven into the ground. In any case, good luck trying to save your village.

If you look at the history of the long pole it often comes from the origins of the spear. Hung Gar has a 5th brother pole that claims it's history in this vein. He became a monk and lost the spear tip. He kept and improved on the applications. I couldn't say if this pole is at all related to ours in wing chun, but I can say most long poles have similar technqiues at their core. Probably cause there is only so many ways to effectivly weild a pole.

[southernkf]

Let me start with the 1st point. It actually doesn't matter where you 'think' the 'form' comes from as I believe tjwingchun mentioned a 6 1/2 & 3 1/2 version which to my knowledge is understandable.

So you tell every one else it doesn't matter what they think, but you beleive what tjwingchun thinks? Sounds like odd logic. Please explain how the long pole is effective against mounted calvery? Please explain where in wing chun history there was a need for defenses against calvery? Please explain the relation between wing chun pole technqiues and those techniques actually have been used against cavlery?



Yip Man devised the modern techniques by collaborating with other elders at the time, like he also done with the forms, wooden man and knives. Condensing all these complex moves into its simplest form is a massive challenge adn something that should be remembered and respected by all of us! A

This is interesting. What elders did he collaborate his wing chun with? What exactly did he devise? The techniques in Yip Man's pole are found in virtually every southern art ranging from Southern Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and various branches of wing chun for starters. THere is nothing unique in the pole.


According to old folk stories the most prized piece of equipment in a Martial Art School were its array of Flags. After all they were the schools identity. I'd only like to ask at this point that you consider this idea. A Flag bearer is expert in the Pole and that the history of this weapon may be closely linked to Jee Shim, but it is definately not his work.
This is true of some schools but not many others. I don't get the sense that wing chun often had public schools and the need for flags as many other schools did. I don't believe this tradition was followed by Leung Jan, Chan Wah Shun, and others. But perhaps it was at the root of the pole. But I beleive that too is false as the the roots of the pole often is credited to spear forms if you look outside of the just wing chun.


I've heard that maybe the late Wong Shun Leung may have been one of the only students back in the day to really understand the weapon and link its theories into his hands.
Why do you think that? There are several who would have learned the pole. No disrespect to WSL, he was a great man and one of the top people in wing chun. But I am really getting tired of people suggesting he was the ONLY one that got info. He was one of the few public people that others credit, but there were really many others and this comment shows a bit of ignorance about the topic.


But more importantly Luk Dim Boon Gwun does NOT translate as 61/2 point pole,
So what is the translation? Luk = 6 Dim = point Gwoon = pole. I admit I don't ofhand know what boon means. Are suggesting these aren't the literal translation, or are you saying the literal translation doesn't convey the meaning of the name?

[LoneTiger108]

1. So you tell every one else it doesn't matter what they think, but you beleive what tjwingchun thinks? Sounds like odd logic. Please explain how the long pole is effective against mounted calvery? Please explain where in wing chun history there was a need for defenses against calvery? Please explain the relation between wing chun pole technqiues and those techniques actually have been used against cavlery?

2. This is interesting. What elders did he collaborate his wing chun with? What exactly did he devise? The techniques in Yip Man's pole are found in virtually every southern art ranging from Southern Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and various branches of wing chun for starters. THere is nothing unique in the pole.

3. This is true of some schools but not many others. I don't get the sense that wing chun often had public schools and the need for flags as many other schools did. I don't believe this tradition was followed by Leung Jan, Chan Wah Shun, and others. But perhaps it was at the root of the pole. But I beleive that too is false as the the roots of the pole often is credited to spear forms if you look outside of the just wing chun.

4. Why do you think that? There are several who would have learned the pole. No disrespect to WSL, he was a great man and one of the top people in wing chun. But I am really getting tired of people suggesting he was the ONLY one that got info. He was one of the few public people that others credit, but there were really many others and this comment shows a bit of ignorance about the topic.

5.So what is the translation? Luk = 6 Dim = point Gwoon = pole. I admit I don't ofhand know what boon means. Are suggesting these aren't the literal translation, or are you saying the literal translation doesn't convey the meaning of the name?

I have to say that I never expected my language to be under scrutiny, but it's still good to read another persons perspective. I'm thankful to you and I'll try my best to answer your questions southernkf!

1. I didn't actually say I believed tjwingchun, I just mentioned I believe he posted the 61/2 & 31/2 ideas earlier and that I can understand how this could've happened. As for the Cavalry examples, you may only think of Military references if you think that Wing Chun, as a Martial Art, existed before Wing Chun herself. This, I believe is possible.

2. Totally agree with you that there is nothing unique in the pole compared to other systems, and I can honestly say I couldn't tell you who Yip Man worked with to create the common set we see today. Maybe this one is for his own family to answer.

3. I understand what you're saying here also, but I have to say that as the school I trained was 'open' and involved a hell of a lot in community activities a flag was just the norm. You may be right when you mention the ancestors not using flags due to the style not being public, but that still is not the case now.

4. I mentioned how WSL transferred the knowledge into his hands and MAY have been one of the only students to do so. I never meant that nobody else learnt the pole from Yip Man. And I think WSL could see the simplicity of pole drills and how effective they were at developing your strength, especially for fighting.

5. Lastly! Luk=6, Dim=Point, Boon=Half & Gwun=Cudgel (not even pole!) Although I can understand why we generally call the stick a pole I think that the literal translation doesn't convey the meaning of the name. From what little I understand of the history of weaponry the 6 points may refer to the spear plays you mentioned but the Half Pole I have only ever seen in the Lee Shing Family. This would refer to a set within our form that uses the pole like a quarter staff (holding in the middle) for close quarters work.

I hope this helps you and others see where I'm coming from, and thanks again for making me think as this is why I joined the forum in the first place!

[k gledhill]

WSl wasnt the only one...the way the pole is weilded and uses its 'shock' force to displace another pole ,without losing its aim at center of mass...carries to hands...a focused strike utilizing the whole body to the point of the pole + the mass of the pole [9ft] behind 2 arms and a thrusting leg to a strike in one beat...ouch.:D
the parrying actions of the pole are taken to the arms, each arm acting as the 1st 1/2 of the single poles attacking parry/ thrust..only 1arm defelcts and the other rotates directly behind the know retracting strike/parry....to a focused aligned leg thrust/punch only from the sides utilizing the same strike/ cover line's....
If you dont know the pole and how it carries over you wont be working at your max potential, thats not that you cant either...you just need to see it and then say..hmmm how come I never had that expalined like that before....you answered your own question...many didnt get that far to understand the connection at all....just a redundant stick ?? i dont think so. And it doubles over to a pool cue nicely :D ouch;)

[southernkf]

Hi LoneTiger108

1 I agree the pole is older than wing chun and perhaps it's history at that point could have included Calvary skills. I don't beleive those are part of the skills transfered down to wing chun, more specficially Yip Man wing chun (just to clarify cause I couldn't tell you what you pole has in it;) ) So, I guess I agree with you on this one.

2 You mentioned that he cordinated with elders, so I figured you had some idea and I would love to hear it. This isn't congruent with my knowledge. He was familiar with other people and styles, but that is not the same as distilling or some how fasioning something based on the knowledge of others. But in any case, it is clear now.

3 Flags may play an important part of the school, but I am not convinced it does in wing chun on the whole and that flags would have been the source of any pole work found in wing chun. My belief is the pole was inherited from a outside system as it uses the same common techniques found in virtually every other long pole system. I believe personally that they are derived from spear techniques. I couldn't tell you if that is true, only that I think so. As far as flags, I am not so sure, but I don't beleive they play a part iin KuLoo, Yip Man, Yuan Kay San, and Pan Nam. Atleast not in the sense that the pole is a hidden weapon. If I am not mistaken, and please correct me, but the flag is very important and you don't want to use it in a way that would say allow it to be on the floor as would happen in several of the pole techniques.

4 WSL was very knowledgeable and I have no doubt he knew the application of the pole. I, of course, didn't question that. However, the statement, along with your clarification makes it sound as if he is the only commonly known person to know the pole and would have knowledge. It minimalizes others knowledge. There were several that learned the pole and that have knowledge. Not every one, but a few.

5 Cudgle/pole. Semantics. I am sorry. I don't use the word cudgle and few people I know do. It is not a common term in my vernacular. Many terms in Cantonese are not translated very well. Much is lost. Ask people what Tan as in tan sau means and you can get very different answers. Same with Fuk as in fuk sau or as in fuk in Hung Gars Gung Gee Fuk Fu. Same word/character but translated differently or with different subtlies. Translation is awkward. The half point in Yip Man's pole is different than yours. Not sure if that changed over time or not, but we don't use the pole as you mentioned. Again, I myself don't see the pole as a fighting tool but a training tool. I couldn't tell you if Yip Man saw it that way or not and if that is the intention of the pole in wing chun. But what I can say is the pole makes no practical value to me as a weapon. It does, however, make very practical sense in developing skills that translate very directly to the hands. Different people may have different takes on it of course.

I do see where your coming from and that is a good thing. I am just discussing and offering different points of views and my comments. I didn't intend to sound as if I was right and you were wrong. I am just analyzing what your saying and I have some disagreeing thoughts and hopefully we can see why.

[donbdc]

I have long ago switched from the pole to the pimp cane!
Techniques only taught on BET.

[southernkf]

WSl wasnt the only one...
If you dont know the pole and how it carries over you wont be working at your max potential, thats not that you cant either...you just need to see it and then say..hmmm how come I never had that expalined like that before....you answered your own question...many didnt get that far to understand the connection at all....just a redundant stick ?? i dont think so. And it doubles over to a pool cue nicely :D ouch;)

I agree with all this. WSL was good, but he wasn't the only one. The danger starts with acknowledging him for his attainment, which latter seems to turn into the most likely only one to learn this or that. Yip Man has been reported to say he didn't teach the entire system to more than 5 people (not sure if he even actually said that, but it is reported), but that doesn't mean the knowledge wasn't around in more than those 5 people. Meaning he taught the pole to some one and the knives to someone else. They then taught each other the other weapons under the knowledge of Yip Man. That is how all schools are ran. Who ONLY learns from their teacher? Heck, the Dummy wasn't even around in the beginning. So I suppose the early students don't know the dummy either? LOL. But I digress....


I like your last statement. THis I think is vital to a lot of wing chun. What you do with it and your understanding of it may not be the depth of what that something is. The pole, knives, and dummies all offer more than just their simple apparent use as weapons or a "partner". As I learn more of wing chun I find there is nothing redundant or useless. Wing Chun is very elegant and deep. The knees in stance and elbows in are very specific to their reason. Some one included the Pole and knives for a specific reason. If it was purely for self defense, I suspect other knives, and stick forms would have been included over a 8 foot single headed pole. But regardless what its intent is, what can you get out of it? As was mentioned, the pole offers a lot.

[Mano Mano]

Its obvious that the 6 &1/2 point pole has been adapted to civilian use through out the generations however Chinese long poles were most likely military in origin the only real difference between the 6 &1/2 point pole & a Chinese long spear (mao) is the lack of a spear head & tassel.
The mao sometimes referred to as a Chinese pike was used on the battle field against cavalry as the European pike was to protect archers, crossbowmen & later musket men the Chinese armies face the same problems on the battle field as there European & Middle Eastern counter parts. Pikes & mao weren’t just used to repel cavalry by jamming the but into the ground they had fighting techniques parrying & striking were also used for close quarters i.e. the length of the weapon.
One main characteristic found in the Wing Chun pole is that the techniques are mostly linear which is how you would use pikes & similar weapons in a small formation of men against horsemen who found they couldn’t just charge through the tight formations which would also so come in handy if you had to repel a boat to boat boarding as pikes were used in English Elizabethan navies.

[tjwingchun]

Funny but nice to see Edmund here, he used to come to our Wing Chun school when he first arrived in the North East and introduced Choy Lee Fut, that was in 1975/6, His top student Jonny is a good friend though not seen him for some time, not been to Julies in many a year, lol.

Good to see you onboard this forum and hope the weather is as nice in your own little world as it is out here in Colonia de Sant Jordi :D and your views mimic mine as to the use of the pole but I will be putting those down in more detail a bit later when I have more time.

Trevor

[k gledhill]

Knives & Pole knowledge are essential to have a clear understanding of the tactics that will guide the bare hands as well in freefighting . WSL would tell anyone who asked ...problem being not many knew to even ask .
The basic knees in stance is never done fighting in a static manner as form training ...only to develop certain traits and establish a simple 'neutral' point that 2 students could move out of as they train triangulating to a line of force from each others stepping in attacks in chi-sao. Done randomly in chi-sao to develop instinctive maneuvering OFF the charge linebut maintain striking distance to make contact with sufficient focused /aligned force/structure [pole] to drop or begin countering an attack at the appropriate distances to keep focused strikes[ pole] on someones body/head from an angle they give you by ther actions [ knife ] ......., but because so many spend so much tme in it doing chisao they get sucked into a redundant fighting method, facing square on turning left right in center to a charging takedown , some even waddling towards their attacker in a basic stance...Mobility is the first thing you need , mobility to both maneuever around and at the attack , fast lively shifting on the face of a clock on the floor beneath you...never adopting a lead leg stance until actually flanking someone , like an entrenched army waiting for the attack of the opposing force...machineguns placed in the far corners of the battlefiled , waiting for the right distance to open fire on helpless overwhelmed flanked attackers taken by surprise , unable to use their full force to fight the machine gun ....a self -clearing unjammable gun, that keeps on firing and chasing down the retreating attackers , maintaining its working ditances/range...always maneuvering itself to a side never in front of incoming fire from the opposing army. A provable and effective tactic used in WWI ...more soldiers where killed by this simple tactic of placing machineguns in each corner of a line , than any other, in D-Day, the same tactic was adopted by the Germans , but the U.S. forces learned to attack the machine guns in flanking countermeasures. never charging into the center of a open and inviting field . This flanking and counter flanking is VT fighting ...how we train ourselves , constantly maneuvering to an outside position dictated by the actions of the attacker and their movement....let them show you how to defeat them.
Stay with what comes [ becasue your counter attacking a 'shown ' move. ] follow through as it retreats [ you have higher percentage of survival being the attacker, longer than being the defender .]

[Mano Mano]

Funny but nice to see Edmund here, he used to come to our Wing Chun school when he first arrived in the North East and introduced Choy Lee Fut, that was in 1975/6, His top student Jonny is a good friend though not seen him for some time, not been to Julies in many a year, lol.

Good to see you onboard this forum and hope the weather is as nice in your own little world as it is out here in Colonia de Sant Jordi and your views mimic mine as to the use of the pole but I will be putting those down in more detail a bit later when I have more time.

Trevor
Hi Trevor, It's Alec been a while since we spoke, the last time we met was at one of Paul Tennet’s BBQ’s a couple of years back. Hope your enjoying the new life, lucky git :) .
The 6 & ½ point pole is one of my favourite pole forms. Having trained in the Chu Gar 5th son 8 gate pole I can appreciate the simplistic appearance & effectiveness of the wing chun long pole.

[tjwingchun]

Well hello Alec,

Was watching you about two days ago and a very young Paul T in a news clip I have on Edmund doing a lion dance for the Chinese New Year many years ago as I was looking through videos with no titles :confused:

You will have to organise a training holiday out here I am renting the gym out cheap and the apartments where the gym and bar are situated are very reasonable, :D

So just get a few lads together and have a week in the sun and train at the same time :)

Dare say will bump into you again in here so until then, nice to come across a fellow Geordie and all the best, will tell Paul you are getting in here as he does once in a blue moon, but tends not to post just read. :eek:

[Mano Mano]

Well hello Alec,

Was watching you about two days ago and a very young Paul T in a news clip I have on Edmund doing a lion dance for the Chinese New Year many years ago as I was looking through videos with no titles
a very long time ago.

Apologies to everyone else for going off topic, I hope to read more views about the wing chun pole, as someone who has studied the southern long pole from another system I think the form & the weapon is very underrated by most wing chun & non wing chun people.

[LoneTiger108]

I hope to read more views about the wing chun pole, as someone who has studied the southern long pole from another system I think the form & the weapon is very underrated by most wing chun & non wing chun people.

The same reason I joined this forum Mano Mano!

As a Lee Shing family member it does sometimes horrify me that the pole is still so under rated by fellow Wing Chun practitioners. I don't so much mind other stylists critical views, but the pole/stick training must have been 'added' for good reason! It just seems people tend to believe what movies say, rather than research themselves.

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun pole training adds a lot to structural strength, and empowers the hands further.
Its obsolete as a weapon but if you know what you are doing it's a great training tool for wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Yip Man has been reported to say he didn't teach the entire system to more than 5 people (not sure if he even actually said that, but it is reported), but that doesn't mean the knowledge wasn't around in more than those 5 people. Meaning he taught the pole to some one and the knives to someone else. They then taught each other the other weapons under the knowledge of Yip Man.

This statement is very true in my teachers case.

My Sifu learnt the LDB from his Sifu, Lok Yiu. He later wanted to learn the BJD which he got from WSL (they were good friends) as a trade off for some detailed stuff about the pole that wong needed to refine.

Geez theres so much in our system, to train today and spend time making one of the weapons second nature to you is hard enough, let alone back in the days when you used to spend a year on SLT before moving up.....

My Sifu had me training the arrow horse for six months before even touching the pole...but damm it made the world of difference when i got to the form.

Of course people had to share, but there are others that just looked at copied which is where differences occur the most IMO and the major difference is not in the way the weapons look for the most part, but the energies involved by the practitioner, as a direct result of looking and learning.

I see very little of pole tips moving during practice, which is from elbow/body power sent through the pole and is for the most part why some refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the pole as a machine gun.....the source of force has changed through the years but lends back to the H2H system IMO.

DREW

[Liddel]

As a Lee Shing family member it does sometimes horrify me that the pole is still so under rated by fellow Wing Chun practitioners.

Not by me buddy, its the king of hand weapons.

Dont know why people think its so out of date, its not like you have to use a eight foot pole, we only use length for training... i can use a pole anywhere down to about 3 / 4 feet.... that is untill i gave it up for the BJD Sifu is a bit old now :(.

DREW

[sihing]

This statement is very true in my teachers case.

My Sifu learnt the LDB from his Sifu, Lok Yiu. He later wanted to learn the BJD which he got from WSL (they were good friends) as a trade off for some detailed stuff about the pole that wong needed to refine.

Geez theres so much in our system, to train today and spend time making one of the weapons second nature to you is hard enough, let alone back in the days when you used to spend a year on SLT before moving up.....

My Sifu had me training the arrow horse for six months before even touching the pole...but damm it made the world of difference when i got to the form.

Of course people had to share, but there are others that just looked at copied which is where differences occur the most IMO and the major difference is not in the way the weapons look for the most part, but the energies involved by the practitioner, as a direct result of looking and learning.

I see very little of pole tips moving during practice, which is from elbow/body power sent through the pole and is for the most part why some refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the pole as a machine gun.....the source of force has changed through the years but lends back to the H2H system IMO.

DREW

Drew,

I see allot of parallel's between the WSL method and Lok Yiu method through your posts as of late. Ernie just shared some of the pole work on his recent visit with us here, one of the drills is the arrow punching, lol. It reminds me of the days when my first Sifu made us do the Hung Gar stance drills up and down the floor, although he dropped teaching those styles, he still kept the excersise routines for Saturday's class, when we were all hungover. Stance drills are a good cure for hangover's.

My understanding now of the pole work (when I did TWC, it was all about using the staff as a weapon), is that it helps create a better stance and overall stronger structure, make one very hard to move, but easy to move others. Playing with it as little as I have now, I can see why:)

James

[Liddel]

Drew,
I see allot of parallel's between the WSL method and Lok Yiu method through your posts as of late.

My sifu and Wong were very good friends back in the day, we have a lot of similarities because of this IMO.



Ernie just shared some of the pole work on his recent visit with us here, one of the drills is the arrow punching, lol. It reminds me of the days when my first Sifu made us do the Hung Gar stance drills up and down the floor, although he dropped teaching those styles, he still kept the excersise routines for Saturday's class, when we were all hungover. Stance drills are a good cure for hangover's.

Hangovers .....? Damm, talk about sweatin out the toxins :D

If you are taught to have your thighs horizontal (going very low) during the arrow horse it can be very punishing. Sifu used to make me do this for ages, bout 40steps (20 foward then 20 back) followed by other drills like holding my front kick out with the kneee bent while one of my Si dai dragged me around without letting me straighten the leg.....:eek:
All i wanted to do was start using the pole, but i had to do the hard yards BEFORE EVEN TOUCHING IT....



My understanding now of the pole work, is that it helps create a better stance and overall stronger structure, make one very hard to move, but easy to move others. Playing with it as little as I have now, I can see why:)
James

Gm Ip told my Sifu that the LDB can hurt your Chi Sao while the BJD can hurt your footwork (because of the obvious differences) but man, after the arrow horse training i think the LDB just destroys you !
;)

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

My Sifu learnt the LDB from his Sifu, Lok Yiu. He later wanted to learn the BJD which he got from WSL (they were good friends) as a trade off for some detailed stuff about the pole that wong needed to refine.

This may explain why you know of the Poles importance Drew, as Lok Yiu was a great Master and one of Lee Shings first teachers. Wong Shun Leung was always talked highly of as a weaponry man as I believe Lee Shing knew that without this type of 'reality' training your Wing Chun will be poor and (possibly) pointless.

Everything you 'touch' passes into your hands, so it's a shame to see you drop the stick in favour of the knives, as to me they are a Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) and need equal attention IMHO...

[Vajramusti]

Gm Ip told my Sifu that the LDB can hurt your Chi Sao while the BJD can hurt your footwork (because of the obvious differences) but man, after the arrow horse training i think the LDB just destroys you !

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\Context! Time and place for evrything...A before B.....
joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

This may explain why you know of the Poles importance Drew, as Lok Yiu was a great Master and one of Lee Shings first teachers.

Interesting... Yes Lok Yiu was known for his LDB, pitty he was such a private person didnt always let things go as easy as others...you had to be close and he had to like you. Id love to Lee Shings Pole form - see how similar things are.......



Everything you 'touch' passes into your hands, so it's a shame to see you drop the stick in favour of the knives, as to me they are a Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) and need equal attention IMHO...

Its not that i wanted to drop it, but more because my Sifu has high, unchanging standards. :o By the time i reached his level of satisfaction in the arrow horse and was making the tip of the kwan, shake in a circle the size of a large grapefruit in Dan Kwan drills, he was a bit to old to stick the pole with me....

He's old school - had to learn the energy first... ahhhhhh

Hes not taught anyone else in our class (im the oldest anyway, 27) that i could stick with.

So he began teaching me the BJD. Bit bummed really, the LDB is much harder but i always wanted to learn it from my Sifu cause he showed me some fairly sick 5hit 10 odd years ago when i started and i wanted to get that skill (or close to it) from him.... :(

Anyway im happy with the BJD and i love the functionality, sparring / drills we do with them.....

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=Liddel;805996]Interesting... Yes Lok Yiu was known for his LDB, pitty he was such a private person didnt always let things go as easy as others...you had to be close and he had to like you. Id love to Lee Shings Pole form - see how similar things are.......QUOTE]

Like Lok Yiu, Lee Shing was a very humble and private person, and never taught for money. It was Lee Shings first generations of students who possibly brought Wing Chun into the open in the UK and they're credited for teaching the first westerners here.

Although this isn't exactly how I got shown by my Sifu, Uncle Austins Pole Form is still a great homage to Lee Shing, as its very precise (especially his breathing). Have a look and let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExClVQ7CdVs

[Liddel]

Although this isn't exactly how I got shown by my Sifu, Uncle Austins Pole Form is still a great homage to Lee Shing, as its very precise (especially his breathing). Have a look and let me know what you think.


Interesting - its very different indeed to Lok Yiu.

The biggest difference i can see is in Holding the pole.

The hands for me are closer together, this is actually the first part of our form.
Holding the pole out with the lead hand and measuring the end of the pole back to just past your elbow, then grasping the end with your rear 'driving hand' and raising the pole from the ground.... its our standard means of measure for correct grip of the pole.

Having the right grip for us means we make sure the elbows are not flying away from the body and this has the purpose of enabling the hinge joint in the elbow as a place to derive energy from, by means of bending and straightening the elbow, thus sending power through the pole making the tip shake with certain actions.

So because sifu Austin Goh has a wider grip on the pole id say at a glance we have different power generation.

Interesting to see that he also changes his grip to the center of the pole using it more like a staff at one point...

Running out of time got to go.....

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

Interesting - its very different indeed to Lok Yiu.

Interesting to see that he also changes his grip to the center of the pole using it more like a staff at one point...
DREW

You can see the difference??!! This is what we refer to as the 'Half Pole'...

As an exchange, I would be very interested to see the Lok Yiu Gwun. Have you a link to a clip?

[Liddel]

As an exchange, I would be very interested to see the Lok Yiu Gwun. Have you a link to a clip?

Sorry mate ive never put anything on film as yet - i dont have the ability to share via the web anyway....i use a computer at work for posting :o

If you have ever come across a vid put out agaes back from WSL called 'The science of infighting' it has WSL showing a little taste of the LDB towards the end - which is about 95% the same as what i have been taught....

I looked for it on youtube but cant find it - i know its out there somewhere, maybe someone else has a link to it for you ??? anyone ???

But.....

Here is the basic sticking drill to get someone started into application -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA

Not much but at least its something. :o

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

Here is the basic sticking drill to get someone started into application -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA

Not much but at least its something. :o

DREW

One of my favourites on Youtube (and I aint just saying that!). True skill and understanding of the nature of 'Chi Gwan' at its introductory level. I've heard of Sifu Bayer as I work with a Wong Shun Leung student (taught by Clive Potter).

I too am awaiting a WSL version to be posted as I know a few guys who trained this in the UK, including my workmate. Have you any view on this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg

[Liddel]

Have you any view on this clip?

I like the clip - it very similar to how i used to train the basics - only difference for me is when lowering into the arrow horse im putting out the pole - timing is the same lending your body force into the thrust.

Power is differnt - ive bruised the inside of my arm by the elbow many times cause of this...also personally my hands are a tad bit closer together...

Good depth on the horse by that guy..nice.

But hey - my skill is quite low in the pole now after giving it up for the BJD.

[Vajramusti]

While Lee Sing may have got to the UK first, Paul Lam was not too far behind. They were not particularly friends. Paul Lam-Hakka background- had learned from Leung Shun(sp?)

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Didn't Alan Lamb also train with Paul Lam for a while?

I haven't really heard anything about Paul Lam, has he got any website? I know of another 'Paul' (Pang), but this can't be the same guy can it?? Didn't Paul Lam also have a student in Canada??

All interesting to me, so I hope you'll share some info Vajramusti...

[Vajramusti]

Yes Alan Lamb learned from him as well besides learning from Lee Sing, Joseph Chemg and Koo Dang(in Hong Kong).
Lam apparently had some polio as a kid. he could still stand and move but compensated for his legs with powerful hands and good timing..
I gather he did have a student in Canada. He was in the business of supplying chicken to Chinese restaurants in UK and the continent as well...but had a business reversal. Like some Hakkas he faced some snobbery. He quit teaching publicly. He had an Indian student in the UK with whom I corresponded briefly. At the moment I cant recall his name. The student had a wrestling background as well.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Correction...Joseph Cheng, Koo Sang.