Tan-sau Used in MMA Clinch

[lawrenceofidaho]

Seems I'm always a step behind in posting videos, but if you haven't seen this one yet, It might be of interest to you........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybz1eg8KZnE

(Karl Tanswell is the head coach for Straight Blast Gym - England)

[sihing]

That looks like Tan sau with Emei engine. Better get Pickachu and crew on this one to investigate...;)

J

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for the video. :)

What a bunch of crap! :D

1) There are many tan saos. This is not a one of them.

2) At that level, that arm position is not going to stop a neck tie.

3) And at that level of staticness (it seems he is advocating wedging the 'tan' in a rooted permanent position) it isn't going to help you stop a punch either.

4) It looks like it may be workable if neither of you are doing anything else with the other arm :rolleyes: What's the point of practising any so-called clinch defence with one arm each?

5) Embrace the clinch!!! :D The clinch should be one of the natural wing chun ranges. And following on from that...

6) Similar to there being no 'anti-grappling', just being better grappling (ie, you have to study grappling to be able to defeat/escape a grappling tech), there is no anti-clinch, just better clinch training. If your WC is so insecure you don't feel you can use it in the clinch, when somebody clinches you or tries to clinch you if you haven't practiced in that range, you're theirs!

Footwork was nice but basic.

Maybe this instuctor can make it work. If he's extremely talented/hard... but I'll bet the vast majority of his students couldn't pull it off and would get beaten if they tried.

Of course, we don't know the amount of emphasis this guy puts on this tech as part of a clinch programme, but I hope it's not much on such a low-percentage tech.

[stricker]

i dont get it.

if i had the inside like that i'd just go for the plumm myself then its happy times

or just hit (wing chun mentality but this is a training environment also maybe sub wrestling)

or use a fook sao (that sort of fanning out one with both hands where you drop from double-lan to double-fook in siu nim tao) to get inside/bicep control (exact same technique in wing chun and mma).

ive been using tan sao (exactly out the 3x fooks bit in snt courtesy of aS) to break out of the plumm once its on but what he's doing doesnt look like its gonna wedge and drive out looks more like a static guard than anything.

oh one detail on the tan sao is if the wrist is in line with the forearm it has very little strength much stronger when you flatten the palm out. actually it needs the opposite tension to keep it in line, just relaxing it would drop it flatter.

to be honest i was disappointed by everything in the clip especially as the sbg materials come over so well (i know there are mixed opinions on this)

one other thing is i got the impression he'd been around wing chun some time (lets not get into that special forces stupid debate hahaha)


ps hahaha karl tans well ? no not very well at all hahahah :D

[AmanuJRY]

In that close I'd be using more of a 'huen gat sau' (sp? from Biu Jee) instead of Taan sau.;)


Maybe this instuctor can make it work. If he's extremely talented/hard... but I'll bet the vast majority of his students couldn't pull it off and would get beaten if they tried.

That could be said for a vast majority of MA schools and their various techniques.

Being that it's an SBGi guy, chances are him and his students spend a lot of time clinching and rolling so I'm sure it's a reletavely small tech (that's why we're seeing it exagerated to some degree, he's demonstrating a tech that is relativly small in time and space by exagerating it so that humans can percieve what's going on).

[leejunfan]

I think you are all confusing a basic beginner level training drill with actual non-compliant application. When I watched the video it looked like the very beginning or small part of a whole. Don't be too quick to judge and also..... if you think this guy is a "bunch of crap" then I say go to HIM or someone who trains in his system and feel for yourself.

At our school we always show the Wing Chun as it applies on the ground. It's not hard to see similarities in principle, form and structure. So this guys "Tan Sau" didn't look like your standard text book Tan Sau..... but it resembled it... and THAT my friends is what all martial artists should strive to look for.

Look for the similarities, the universal truths, things in common, even if they vary in the slightest. Get off your high horse, turn off your Wing Chun "pride".

For example, a question for you. How can Tan Sau (or what resembles one) negate an armbar attempt?:D

[reneritchie]

(Usual preface to these threads--my first MA was Judo, I've done some BJJ, and a very little wrestling...)

A few years back I had a chance to watch some wrestling (US Greco & Freestyle) for MMA. Both myself and a classmate of mine (who's quite good at BJJ) were struck by how the clinchwork resembled the YKSWCK we'd learned, especially the Weng Chun close range stuff.

Some of the setups were nearly identical (they just didn't do some of the hitting along the way or at the end).

It's another example of how similar things (humans) trying to do similar things (establish dominant control within chest-to-elbow range) will come upon similar methods to accomplish them.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

WTF!!

I am never suprised at what people are teaching.....

[Vajramusti]

I am never suprised at what people are teaching.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are people and there are people

joy chaudhuri

[Nick Forrer]

Guys..Listen V carefully I shall say this only once

Anyone who thinks this is serious...... the joke is on them

This is one hundred percent a p_iss take.:eek:

I know this guy (Karl Tanswell)....Taking the mickey out of KF is one of his pass times

Trust me

Looks like you took the bait:rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

Guys?
some guys maybe..
I didnt even look at the video:-

joy

[Nick Forrer]

Have a look Joy

He plays it straight but his tongue is firmly in his cheek;)

[Nick Forrer]

On second thoughts I think Mr idaho probably knows full well this is a joke and is playing a clever but naughty practical joke/ experiment on the gullibility of WC (and other KF) practitioners on this board by posting this.

[Vajramusti]

As soon as I saw the title in the first post- tan sau used in an mma clinch-
I figured it wasn't serious- but then lots of posts on the forum are jokes- unintended and intended.
joy

[Nick Forrer]

but then lots of posts on the forum are jokes- unintended and intended.
joy


dam_ning but true...Exhibit A: some of the recent assertions made in the emei thread about what exactly constitutes legitimate historical research (BTW I am not refering to Jims article which I liked).

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't see the fault here. He is merely demonstrating Tan Sau. Not an entire fight sequence. I thought he did a pretty good demonstration of this use of Tan Sau. Normally Tan Sau is done with the elbow in a fixed position, but in a clinch it can be altered to this extent. The elbow pulled in tight gives some stability and power behind it. We are not talking about a lot of strength that is needed when you redirect most thrusts or punches. And in this case it is simply a reaching hand. Not a thrust or punch. There are any number of actions that could acompany this Tan Sau, but he was not demonstrating that.

[Mr Punch]

Guys..Listen V carefully I shall say this only once

Anyone who thinks this is serious...... the joke is on them...Looks like you took the bait:rolleyes:Well, I'm glad my summation was as follows then! :D
What a bunch of crap! :D


Get off your high horse, turn off your Wing Chun "pride". Can we have a :rolleyes: ?!


I don't see the fault here. He is merely demonstrating Tan Sau. Not an entire fight sequence. I thought he did a pretty good demonstration of this use of Tan Sau. Normally Tan Sau is done with the elbow in a fixed position, but in a clinch it can be altered to this extent. The elbow pulled in tight gives some stability and power behind it. We are not talking about a lot of strength that is needed when you redirect most thrusts or punches. And in this case it is simply a reaching hand. Not a thrust or punch. There are any number of actions that could acompany this Tan Sau, but he was not demonstrating that.Actually, can we make that two...? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ... any advance?! :D

[leejunfan]

Guys.... whether it was a joke or not doesn't matter. I have seen many seminars where people were doing strange strange things. I don't judge... I just try to keep an open mind. So if this was a joke.... Bravo.... jokes on us.... some times we need to not take ourselves so seriously... hence my saying


Originally Posted by leejunfan
Get off your high horse, turn off your Wing Chun "pride".

[Vajramusti]

Nick- I finally looked at it. Good grief- and forum folks wasted so much time on that silly thing-its not even wing chun-no tan sao there- no wing chun structure or dynamics there- and sadly funny(not)- on how he changes stances in motion on feet usage.

Poor wing chun form runs faster than death.

joy

joy chaudhuri

[AmanuJRY]

Does anyone here even realize, Lawrence called it a taan sau, in the video Karl makes no such claim.:p

Nick,

So your saying this guy's class or seminar was videotaped with this (allegedly) poor tech on purpose to dupe the on-line MA community???

[Nick Forrer]

Justin,

The clip is a joke at wing chun's expense. Im surprised it isnt as obvious to you as it is to me. I dont know exactly why he filmed it or where its from. I think other MMAers are meant to watch it and laugh at the lame attempts of CMA people to formulate anti grappling techniques rather than just use those found in wrestling e.g. shrug and wrench, two on one against a neck tie etc. Put simply its a parody or send up. They do say though that if you have to explain a joke, then the joke was never funny:confused:

[Nick Forrer]

Actually watching it again there are some more give aways

The guy in the blue rash guard is trying hard to keep a straight face:eek:

and he calls it the magnetic floating elbow:eek: :eek:

Maybe you guys just arent used to the 'dry' mancunian humour on display (karl is from manchester hence he is 'mancunian')

[Lee Chiang Po]

(Usual preface to these threads--my first MA was Judo, I've done some BJJ, and a very little wrestling...)

A few years back I had a chance to watch some wrestling (US Greco & Freestyle) for MMA. Both myself and a classmate of mine (who's quite good at BJJ) were struck by how the clinchwork resembled the YKSWCK we'd learned, especially the Weng Chun close range stuff.

Some of the setups were nearly identical (they just didn't do some of the hitting along the way or at the end).

It's another example of how similar things (humans) trying to do similar things (establish dominant control within chest-to-elbow range) will come upon similar methods to accomplish them.


I think this might be because there are better ways of doing things, and smart people usually land on these right ways of doing it. If we see similarity in techniques it is not just coincidence. In viewing this clip I did not see the joke. He was merely demonstrating tan sau in this capacity. Not an entire fight sequence. This simple block can be done from many different angles and in many different ways and still be very effective. I have known a few people that used it almost exclusively and were very hard to grab or hit. I like to train all my blocks and paries, but there are those that seem to be as close to natural as anything can feel, so I tend to favor them.
Being trained in Japanese Jujitsu I will state that within this system there are few blocks and paries that I like. In fact, most training that I have seen did not place emphisis upon blocks and paries. Only the following techniques. To be able to effect a wrist lock or a throw you have to be able to get hold of your oponent without getting beaten down. I have found that the blocking systems of WC are perfect for this. I have sort of mixed my training back and forth, and although I would not likely make a good compitition fighter, I can defend myself fairly well. I think that is is a natural thing that we have a tendency to train what we like and drop or add what works well for us. Thus the many different styles and systems. I don't think one can learn too much in the way of Method and Technique. The only other option that I would see as being as effective would be to buy a large bord handgun.

[stricker]

Actually watching it again there are some more give aways

The guy in the blue rash guard is trying hard to keep a straight face:eek:

and he calls it the magnetic floating elbow:eek: :eek:

Maybe you guys just arent used to the 'dry' mancunian humour on display (karl is from manchester hence he is 'mancunian')oh c'mon nick sbg teach a thing called crazy monkey :rolleyes:

[mattb]

[yawn and scratches butt]Is dinner ready yet?[/yawn and scratches butt]

[Liddel]

Nick- I finally looked at it. Good grief- and forum folks wasted so much time on that silly thing-its not even wing chun-no tan sao there- no wing chun structure or dynamics there- and sadly funny(not)- on how he changes stances in motion on feet usage.

joy chaudhuri

Jeeze youd think VT peeps would see it only has a similarity to Tan Sau
I agree with Joy on this one, structure dynamics etc etc - yeah it looks like it but it aint what i call Tan Sau.

VT IMHO is not defined by the shapes of the actions but what forces drive them - cant understand why people would call this Tan Sao, obviously they think in terms of how it looks :rolleyes:

Good Pi$$ take.

[tjwingchun]

Only watched the opening part of the video, thought it shi'ite, then moved on, but if you fancy a laugh then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kQ6iY-mGwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRPtblopFLQ

Shows skills that took hours of practice and dedication and for those that did not see the derivation of modern ground fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L70tjwNTtuI

[anerlich]

No way is that serious.

No aliveness, for starters, in those drills. He'd be summarily kicked out of SBG if that were serious.

A half decent wrestler would treat that grab for the neck from outside range as a gift and go straight for the underhook. A striker would just punch him in the face. No one's going to just stand there and act like a Dalek. (EXTERMINATE! :D)

That footwork is def. bogus ... unfortunately I've seen worse taught seriously in TCMA.


sbg teach a thing called crazy monkey

They do, but it was invented by a South African named Rodney King. It's actually develops good defensive skills against strikes pretty quickly, like WC is supposed to.

[tjwingchun]

Jeeze youd think VT peeps would see it only has a similarity to Tan Sau
I agree with Joy on this one, structure dynamics etc etc - yeah it looks like it but it aint what i call Tan Sau.

VT IMHO is not defined by the shapes of the actions but what forces drive them - cant understand why people would call this Tan Sao, obviously they think in terms of how it looks :rolleyes:

Good Pi$$ take.

Saying, as far I as know (which is very slight), the translation of Tan Sau is "palm up hand" so apart from declining your "Tan Sau my arse" title, I am in total agreement, Tan Sau is a dynamic structure, Wing Chun is a dynamic system, if you wait for anybody they will hit you, when you play the games of others you get beat.

Remember though when you take everything too seriously and stop laughing yourself, then you are truly ready to take up ************** (insert the martial art of your choice)

I have heard too many tales and seen too much from the back end of a bull over the years to say whether this is meant for real or not, though I accept Nick's assessment as he knows the guy, all I can say is that he must have very low SELF esteem and is too concerned about the value of Wing Chun to waste his time on something so pathetic, he could have trawled through 'YOU TUBE' and got something much more damaging to Wing Chun, WT, VT or whatever.

Tan Sau is a quarter of all immediate solutions, it's the 'question' that we are asked in reality that we have no control over and can leave us unprepared.

If you wake up to find your technique was lacking, then feel lucky and practice more.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That whole clip is ridiculous from top to bottom - and I agree that the guy in blue is having a hard time keeping a straight face. :rolleyes:

[AmanuJRY]

Actually watching it again there are some more give aways

The guy in the blue rash guard is trying hard to keep a straight face:eek:

and he calls it the magnetic floating elbow:eek: :eek:

Maybe you guys just arent used to the 'dry' mancunian humour on display (karl is from manchester hence he is 'mancunian')


I'm not really buying that it's bogus.

1. no one on this board knows exactly why the guy in blue is grinning, could be he just let a stinker.

2. the idea that some people would post bogus video footage of their school/class to get a 'rise' out of videoholics is retarded. It would only serve to misrepresent you and your school (especially the way y'all tear into it). If was meant to be funny the guy needs to go find a master of comedy and improve his skills. Also, comedy (especially parody and satire) generally has a point or 'topic', what is it here; making fun of internet MA videos? making fun of WC taan sau concept (which I never hear mentioned)? Making fun of disinformation?

If it was meant as bait....where's the hook?;)

Nick,
In all your comments you say you 'think' ;

I dont know exactly why he filmed it or where its from. I think other MMAers are meant to watch it and laugh at the lame attempts of CMA people to formulate anti grappling techniques rather than just use those found in wrestling e.g. shrug and wrench, two on one against a neck tie etc.

Just a speculation, right?

I think I'd lose more respect for SBGi for posting a bogus video than teaching a bogus tech.

[YungChun]

I'm not really buying that it's bogus.

1. no one on this board knows exactly why the guy in blue is grinning, could be he just let a stinker.

2. the idea that some people would post bogus video footage of their school/class to get a 'rise' out of videoholics is retarded. It would only serve to misrepresent you and your school (especially the way y'all tear into it). If was meant to be funny the guy needs to go find a master of comedy and improve his skills. Also, comedy (especially parody and satire) generally has a point or 'topic', what is it here; making fun of internet MA videos? making fun of WC taan sau concept (which I never hear mentioned)? Making fun of disinformation?

If it was meant as bait....where's the hook?;)

Nick,
In all your comments you say you 'think' ;


Just a speculation, right?

I think I'd lose more respect for SBGi for posting a bogus video than teaching a bogus tech.

Agreed 100%!

Plus they're all too good at it.... :D

Which means it's probably real.. LMAO!

Magnetic floating elbow.. LOL

[Nick Forrer]

I'm not really buying that it's bogus.

comedy (especially parody and satire) generally has a point or 'topic', what is it here; making fun of internet MA videos?


At the risk of repeating myself.....The point is to take the p_iss out of the practicality of WC (and by extension all TMA) against anyone half skilled in wrestling/Muay Thai

Maybe its a cultural gap but its immediately obvious to me as an Englishman that this is a parody. Maybe different cultural norms apply in Idaho. BTW thats not a dig just an observation (or speculation if you prefer).

[anerlich]

though I accept Nick's assessment as he knows the guy, all I can say is that he must have very low SELF esteem and is too concerned about the value of Wing Chun to waste his time on something so pathetic

Jeez, some of you guys are reading way too much into this.

They were probably just mucking around, the cameraman had a few minutes of tape left over, and they decided to do something stupid for a laugh. AS someone who seems to fancy himself as a comedian in his posts, you can deal with that, surely.

It was probly always going to be an outtake, a friend of the cameraman saw it and though it might be funny to put it up on the web.

There's no agenda of putting down TCMA here. I'm sure Karl doesn't give a rats about TCMA's profile anywhere. The notion that this is part of some conspiracy to rot TCMA from within is just ridiculous.

Anyone posting regularly on this forum has no business lecturing anyone else about wasting their time on pointless activities.

[AmanuJRY]

At the risk of repeating myself.....The point is to take the p_iss out of the practicality of WC (and by extension all TMA) against anyone half skilled in wrestling/Muay Thai

Maybe its a cultural gap but its immediately obvious to me as an Englishman that this is a parody. Maybe different cultural norms apply in Idaho. BTW thats not a dig just an observation (or speculation if you prefer).

Cultural norms may be sleightly different, but not that far off (being that my experience is not limited to Idaho, I do get around, and that in playing Rugby in the states I've had a vast amount of English, Austrailian, Kiwi, and Canuk friends to be familiar enough with English humor). I guess I just don't like it when people pick on the handicapped.

BTW, no offence taken, anerlich.

[anerlich]

BTW, no offence taken, anerlich.

None was intended ... I'm not sure what you mean, Justin. My comments were addressed to tjwingchun's post.

[AmanuJRY]

None was intended ... I'm not sure what you mean, Justin. My comments were addressed to tjwingchun's post.

Sorry, you had quoted me, I thought that comment was directed at me.

No worries mate!

[Edmund]

At the risk of repeating myself.....The point is to take the p_iss out of the practicality of WC (and by extension all TMA) against anyone half skilled in wrestling/Muay Thai


Unfortunately it didn't quite translate. Most people took the clip seriously and thought it was another bad anti-grappling con and bad WC con.

Manchester is not really known as the home of fantastic wrestling or Muay Thai.

[Liddel]

I'm not really buying that it's bogus.
2. the idea that some people would post bogus video footage of their school/class to get a 'rise' out of videoholics is retarded.


Even well known people have a sence of humour....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNXRInrSSVU

Lighten up man.

[AmanuJRY]

Even well known people have a sence of humour....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNXRInrSSVU

Lighten up man.

See, now that's funny! (The people at Maxim know about comedy;) )

All I'm saying is that if you produce a video that is supposed to be humorus (but it's kinda on the fringe, like the one in question) than it should be obvious.

Things like the sound effects, the video effects, the music...all that in Bas/Maxim's video let the viewer know it's to be taken lightly. When it's like the one from Karl, where it appears to be an instructional session, and there are no sound effects, video effects, music, etc. it makes people think it's serious.

How many people who viewed the video before Nick commented had the reaction that it was a serious video??

I'd say the first 8 posts after Lawrence all thought it was serious.;)


And, BTW, I'm a real light hearted guy, just ask Lawrenceofidaho or Ernie. I can't really lighten up any more than I already am.:D

[tjwingchun]

Back to my first post in this thread and feel it shows how serious I thought about the clip.


Only watched the opening part of the video, thought it shi'ite, then moved on, but if you fancy a laugh then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kQ6iY-mGwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRPtblopFLQ

Shows skills that took hours of practice and dedication and for those that did not see the derivation of modern ground fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L70tjwNTtuI

This being from the second post that anerlich took exception to? "though I accept Nick's assessment as he knows the guy, all I can say is that he must have very low SELF esteem and is too concerned about the value of Wing Chun to waste his time on something so pathetic"


Jeez, some of you guys are reading way too much into this.

They were probably just mucking around, the cameraman had a few minutes of tape left over, and they decided to do something stupid for a laugh. AS someone who seems to fancy himself as a comedian in his posts, you can deal with that, surely.

It was probly always going to be an outtake, a friend of the cameraman saw it and though it might be funny to put it up on the web.

There's no agenda of putting down TCMA here. I'm sure Karl doesn't give a rats about TCMA's profile anywhere. The notion that this is part of some conspiracy to rot TCMA from within is just ridiculous.

Anyone posting regularly on this forum has no business lecturing anyone else about wasting their time on pointless activities.

Not reading anything into the clip apart from I still think if it was a joke as Nick believes then it was lame.

Hardly a lecture, just a statement of my opinion.


My comments were addressed to tjwingchun's post.

Just a bit puzzled that you thought me 'lecturing', my feeling of "EACH TO THEIR OWN" covers most aspect in life not just Wing Chun; still have not bothered watching the clip again, as from what I remember there was not a great deal in it, and from the rest of the posts in this thread little reason to do so.

But having a laugh in life is important so here's another one to be going on with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CioinnnwMZQ

[lawrenceofidaho]

To be honest, when I first watched the video, I thought he might possibly be serious until I saw the footwork switch.......

:)

Karl has done this (at least) once before, that I know of. -There is a clip that floated around (sorry, I don't have a link) of him referencing a wing chun book that illustrates a punching drill where the aim is to direct your punch at a candle and extinguish the flame. He then procedes to guide his student thru the exercise with them holding a tiny candle in one hand and punching at it with the other. (No question that was a joke, however, as they are laughing their a$$es off thru the entire clip.)

I don't think the intent is to make fun of wing chun, per se, -just to point out the absurdity of certain training approaches in a light-hearted way. As Andrew stated, they were probably just mucking around a bit with the camera and thought it would fun to post it. (-And sometimes the best jokes are those which are told with a straight face (ala Jon Stewart's "Daily Show".)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BTW- Justin definitely has a good sense of humor, and I don't think anyone who knows him personally would ever accuse him of taking anything (including himself) too seriously.......

:D

[anerlich]

Just a bit puzzled that you thought me 'lecturing',

Turn of phrase. Sorry you're puzzled, and flattered that you took my response seriously enough to respond.

If you were actually trying to lecture I'd ignore you anyway or tell you you were full of crap, but of course you're not trying to do that, are you? ;)

Karl didn't even mention WC or tan sao, IIRC, people. It's not about you.

[tjwingchun]

Turn of phrase. Sorry you're puzzled, and flattered that you took my response seriously enough to respond.

If you were actually trying to lecture I'd ignore you anyway or tell you you were full of crap, but of course you're not trying to do that, are you? ;)

Karl didn't even mention WC or tan sao, IIRC, people. It's not about you.

Me! lecture! NEVER!!!:rolleyes:

Some things in life I take seriously and my Wing Chun is one of them. I have over the years been told that I obsess about Wing Chun and I can hardly deny that at times as it has bee a major part of my life since I was 14 yrs old :confused:

Been told I am full of crap would have been like water off a ducks back :D , but to say I was "lecturing" that was hurtful :( because it gets levelled at my alot ;) and so I try to avoid it when I can :o . Though when I lecture it tends to take about at least an hour and that is in a conversation (up to 4 in seminars lol).

Since I first posted in this forum seems to have become more Wing Chun discussion orientated rather than the wc/wt/vt 'tart slapping' that it was when I first posted, and I respect people with experience and knowledge and value their judgement relating to Wing Chun, a couple of forums I go into (much less now) just seem to be cyber ultimate warriors who have little to say apart from *ing **un is crap, of words to that effect.

Look forward to more dialogue and cheers for not calling me full of crap, well not yet anyway :D :D :D

[AmanuJRY]

Though when I lecture it tends to take about at least an hour and that is in a conversation (up to 4 in seminars lol).

Man...if I paid for a seminar and got a four hour lecture, I'd want a refund.:(

(not only that, I'd probably fall asleep)

[leejunfan]

The fact that this pointless thread has reached 4 pages speaks volumes.

Let it die people :rolleyes:

[AmanuJRY]

The fact that this pointless thread has reached 4 pages speaks volumes.

Let it die people :rolleyes:

It's only two on my screen.;)

but, I'm with you. I already wrote it off as bad humor.:cool:

[tjwingchun]

R.I.P Tan-used in MMA Clinch

[Gooseman]

http://p102.ezboard.com/fsfuksubmissionfightinguksfukmmaforum.showMessage? topicID=24561.topic

it does turn out that Karl T is taking the pis*.

Nice 1.
The Goose