intent in bagua

[brucelee2]

I have often heard it said that intent (yi) is very important in bagua. I am a little confused to how this relates to circlewalking (wade through mud step). For example, if I tell someone to get out of my apartment, my intent is to make them leave. However, I am not sure how this relates to my circlewalking- when I am walking in bear posture, or supporting the heavens posture, or lion opens its mouth, what is my intent TO DO (I intend to WHAT)? Also, I've heard it said that during the same walking, the hands should be filled with intent (as in supporting the heavens posture)- again, intent to DO WHAT?

thanks-

[JerryLove]

Bagua is far from my speciality, but based on how intent is applied elsewhere....

I think you are over analyzing. When I hit someone, the intent in the punch is not to "defend my girlfriend", rather the intent is to "put my hand behind his head" by going through it.

It's like the unbending arm trick. Intent to hold your arm up and you fail, intent to reach out and you succeed.

Which actual intents are being used in the Bagua exercises you are referring to, I do not know. However, I am willing to bet you will find they are of the variety I mention here.

[TheBigToad]

Finaly someone else that talks intent. Bagua as are ALL internal arts are strong influenced by the intent of the user. This is why the YiJing is importnat to Bagua people is that it helps define and give ideas on what the inent is.

Lets take your Bear posture, is a Bear light on it's feet, extermly flexible? No its like a mountain, big, solid, hard to move and well rooted and oddly I can't think of one Bagua system where Bear doesn't repersent the Mountain gua.. follow me here?

Ok, so to fully develope the Mountain Palm in the sense of the Bear posture one must think and let his/her body become like a bear, strong, well rooted, compressing and solid(internaly), thus becoming more like mountain.

Is this Bagua/YiJing connection this starting make sense to anyone finaly, people still need their hands held and (circle)walked through it again?

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[Zhin]

There is a school of thought in the internal arts that counsels against the use of intent.

[Sam Wiley]

If you know what you are doing martially for each posture, then you have a beginning. You must look at the palm doing the majority of the work in the posture, the one locking the joint, initiating the throw, striking the main target, etc. The proper way to look at the palm is to look at the back part of the palm or wrist, not the fingers, not beyond the fingers. But you must do so using eagle vision. You must see the palm but not be focused on it to the exclusion of anything else. You must be using your peripheral vision so that you take in the background as well as the palm.

During your circle walking, you are gazing at the palm in the center. When you change directions, the gaze switches to the other. This is training you in part in awareness training, because if you take a ready stance, hold your palms up so they are in your center, and are aimed at your opponent's center, if you look toward your palm using eagle or peripheral vision, then you can see his entire body and you have your hands in the perfect position from which to attack him when he attacks.

In Bagua, it's not so much what you "intend to do" as it is what you "intend." Placing your intent on your palms is one way to lead the qi into your palms so you can strike with greater power. It's part of Internal Iron Palm training. You only look at your palms during training, of course, not when actually hitting someone.

When you practice your walking or your form, you are not to think about what the martial applications are, you are to simply express intent by gazing at the palms. The walking is the main thing. Your forms and their applications are secondary, as they are only there to make your walking better and give you a list of techniques, types of body movement, and power generation methods, etc. It is the walking that will teach you to fight with Bagua.

It sounds to me like you are trying to correlate this teaching to circle walking qigong. I think you should focus first on correlating it to basic circle walking. Mud step around the circle holding the Fire palm. Gaze at your palm using your eagle or peripheral vision. Practice changing the gaze to the other palm when you change directions. After a while, your hands will begin to shake slightly when you hold them up. That's a good sign, and is the beginning.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[RAF]

http://members.boardhost.com/devere68/?960992958

Try this site. There are a number of exchanges which may help you. The one on semantics is very good and also the one on the sources of internal power.

Ken Fish and Shun Quan postings provide a lot of insight into these areas. They both know the Chinese language well and also know the esoteric words and phrases assocated with traditional Chinese martial arts.

Read Ken Fish's post the source of neijia and how it is constantly misinterpreted in the West. Shun Quan has a post under the heading of Sources of Internal Power. These guys can really "cut to the chase.

[Braden]

That's a great site with alot of remarkable practitioners, however Ken and company's thoughts on "internal" should be taken with as large a grain of salt as anyone else's.

Intent is a funny thing, which I don't think will work if you try to force it. I don't know how much of this falls under the classical operating definition of intent in the neijia, but... I've had some fun with expressing yin and yang in the hands by combining intent with the kind of gaze usage Sam described. I'm not sure how to explain intent in this context; it's just something my body decided it could do. I think you have to have some measure of mental sung to make this work (I posted on another post: your intention should be like the intention you have to scratch a very mild itch when engrossed in a book). I've also enjoyed visualizing (conceptually, not literally) intent as an energy which travels around your body; when you would go to strike, it would fill your striking hand; however, I try to have it fill my body like air in a balloon (or at least the entire attacking peripheral). Esoteric, maybe. But it helps my body understand non-esoteric ideas like quickly and smoothly folding, and keeping each body section "attached" to the previous. During bagua qigong I've experimented a little with having the intent of the fundamental energy represented by each palm. My instructor also has mentioned using posture names in the form as keys to access other archetypal intents during certain movements.

[Sam Wiley]

Braden,
Do you "breathe" in and out of your hands, flexing the palms, as you walk? I started doing this a while back, and I noticed some interesting things happening in my walking.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Braden]

Sam, how's it going?

I did that for the first time three days ago. I'm not very good at it, and there's still alot of more basic coordinations I'm working on in my walking, so it might be a while before I can integrate it properly in my practice.

We do have a "warm-up" where we stand backweighted in the guard/dragon/basic posture and specifically practice the palm breathing/flexion, first with one side forward, then the other. Especially following a good session of other qigongs (and especially on warm, sunny, dry summer afternoons I've found), I've found this exercise to produce some of the strongest sensations I've felt.

[RAF]

Braden;

You confuse me a bit. If everyone's opinion on the board should be take as a grain of salt then you also incriminate everything on your own posts and I am sure you don't want to infer that, do you?

Sorry but I think Cartmell's material, Fish, and Miller's material on traditional training methods (from the old bagua journal). Coincide with much of what I learn. In particular, the old bagua journal had to be one of the most reputable sources of information. Parks material is also a source of good information.

If you have additional sources, I'd love to hear about them. For example, I know for a fact that weighted training is an essential part of traditional training in the Yin Fu/Gong Bao Tian lineage. This isn't a flameout. I am interested to hear about your sources and their methods of training, including the topic of intent. Without informed discussion (not simply opinion) the art dies

[Braden]

RAF - I think there may have been some misunderstanding. I never meant to suggest I disagreed with many of the training methods and other remarks made by the individuals you identified (although I'm not sure why you picked several of those names when I only mentioned one). Although I have never met any of them, they do seem to be remarkable practitioners and remarkable at sharing their thoughs.

I do disagree on Mr. Fish's definition of internal. Many people have a habit of citing his as "the ultimate source of the real definition, period", which kind of bothers me. When some people read things that have that attitude, they often get the impression that all the good practitioners have gotten together and agreed upon it (Mr. Fish's definition) and that the rest of the world just doesn't know yet. Which simply isn't true. That's all I meant to imply with my post. Nothing more.

As for "taking things with a grain of salt," of course EVERY thing you EVER hear from ANYBODY should be taken with a grain of salt! The purpose of discussion is not to dogmatically spread "The Truth", but only to share your ideas with hopes that they will spark independant investigation by those who hear them. This is just as true with MY opinions as anyone elses. Actually, I would say it's MORE true with my opinions, since I make no attempt to hide it - I have much less experience than many others who post here (let alone the crowd you referred to!).

However, I do have some experience - both personally, and in the form of good advice from teachers. And alot of this I am willing to share openly, because I believe that you can incite others to think even when you have less experience than them, and even when you're wrong! However, I do try to accurately convey things from my own experience. And I welcome when others point out my errors - since it encourages my own learning!

"If you have additional sources, I'd love to hear about them."

Sources for what, exactly?

"For example, I know for a fact that weighted training is an essential part of traditional training in the Yin Fu/Gong Bao Tian lineage."

I'm confused. Is this a comment based on a thread we had on the topic several months ago?

"I am interested to hear about your sources and their methods of training, including the topic of intent."

I just did that! How would you like me to elaborate?

[This message was edited by Braden on 07-01-01 at 12:27 PM.]

[RAF]

Braden:

First, I also do not want to convey any misunderstandings. The remarks concerning weighted training or weight training came up on 6/28/01 again and I was reading over all of the posts and caught your view on circlewalking with weights on the extended arm as counterproductive. . . I don't discount your opinion as a "grain of salt." I think you have many useful insights.

You don't have to repeat your insights on intent and disagreeing with Mr. Fish doesn't bother me in anyway (I have no personnel connection with him).

What I have found, however, is a sort of convergence regarding training methods, concepts and materials among Cartmell, Fish, Miller and my own lineage. Shun Quan discussion of intent on the other website, to me, struck a chord.

Patterns of convergence and divergence among teachers is not necessarily problematic or a flameout. You mention good advice from other teachers and those are the sources I was interested in. Intent, bagua training methods, Yi Jing, was the load but you don't need to go in the direction, my intention is not to put you on the spot or criticize your experiences, teachers' advice, etc..

I think there is a wide spectrum of training methods and philosophies (theories of intent included) among the various schools of bagua and no one school holds a monopoly on truth. Your posts among others contributes substantially to see this spectrum. So please, don't interpret my questions as an attempt to criticize or take apart what you have learned, experienced, or trained in.

[Braden]

"What I have found, however, is a sort of convergence regarding training methods, concepts and materials among Cartmell, Fish, Miller and my own lineage. Shun Quan..."

I agree completely. Since I began looking into such things, I have also strongly identified with the opinions expounded by these practitioners (as well as those by Mr. Adam Hsu - who I believe would be from your lineage). Their definition of "internal" (at least, Cartmell's, Fish's, and Hsu's) is one of the only things they've said that did not sit right with me.

"The remarks concerning weighted training or weight training came up on 6/28/01 again..."

Ah, I see it now! We'd had a longer discussion on it in a different thread which I thought you were referring to. In my lineage we have both stationary and moving exercises where your structure is tested with added pressure, which may be analogous to the methods you use weights for. However, rather than using weights, we use a partner - pressing in different spots. The disadvantage to this approach is that you need a partner. The advantages, as I see them, are numerous - with this method, the pressure can rapidly be removed, and it will be very obvious even to absolute beginners, when they have used tension and when they have used structure (if they've used tension, their body will "bounce" towards the removed force, since it can't adjust quickly enough). The pressure can also be applied at different speeds and frequencies, which better simulated martial usage of structure, and exercises quicker and more varied changes in proper structure than a static weight. The pressure can also be applied at all angles and all locations on the body, permitting a practitioner to experiment with having a holistic structure - supported at every point. Most importantly in this aspect is that the pressure can be applied at angles which simulate direct martial usage - such as into an extended palm heel to show structure for a strike, or into the chest or back as would be used against an opponent's attack.

So I do agree that this kind of "structure testing" can be extremely useful. I just don't think weights are the best way to do it. Weights can only offer a "down" force, which is probably the least useful/common in a martial setting (where you would mostly see various angles of forces directed INTO your body). And they do not offer direct feedback to the beginner as to whether or not they are using tension. This creates the potential for improper training. An advanced practitioner probably has enough "body sense" to tell for themselves whether they are using tension or structure to accomodate the extra pressure. In this sense, I can see how weight-exercises could be useful additions to the training of advanced practitioner when no partner is available. Although I wonder how the big saber set fits into this equation.

"I don't discount your opinion as a 'grain of salt.'"

Just to clarify, to "take something with a grain of salt" doesn't mean to discount it, but only to consider it as a statement of opinion, rather than absolute truth.

Best wishes,
CBM.

[RAF]

Braden:

Even within lineages we sometimes find disagreement over training etc. I strongly disagree with idea of weight training for bagua practitioners that is why I make this distinction between weighted training and weight training. I realize its kinda self-defeating to describe how weighted training fits in. Most, as I have stated previously, do not understand how light the weights must be (with a gradual building up over years, not months). I am primarily talking about rings and baked half bricks (there are also other methods, too). The vest training is another dimension with other requirements.

The exercises change the density of the muscle without bulking up and leaves the necessary flexiblity for striking. In some exercises, the abdominals are worked (out of a horse stance) and reverse breathing is developed naturally (this just hit after about 4 years of the exercise)

Gripping strength, from the brick work, improves a great deal. It is through my brick work and rings that I understand how relaxed and powerful the blocks and palm strikes of bagua can be. The words aren't there but if you ever get someone who can show you the training, experiment with it. Doesn't make you (plural, not personal) invincible and I know there are many roads that lead to the final destiny.

Good luck in your own training

[Braden]

I understand what you're saying and hope to check it out some day.

I've always been interested in the qing gong and elbow methods of your lineage as well.

[passingthru]

I think what is confusing you is that there is more than one kind of intent.
There is an intent to do something very specific. This is a strictly mechanical intent. It is simple.
There is the intent to be. One of the major purposes of the studies you pursue is to move with intent. I don't think that the intent, in the finished sense is verbal or specific to an act. Like, a verbal decision to move to the left or right or anywhere. To do this properly is to move from your spirit. At the beginning, the work is in more basic energy but it goes on.
To move with intent is to move with your entire being, to allow yourself to move yourself, and to find those energies which move you and allow them to.
The intent is also what you need. It is to live, to defend, whatever.
When breaking boards, when done correctly, we have a blend of more than one kind of intent: the general and the specific. It gets fancy when you want to break only the board in the middle. (No, I don't do this.)
When you need to move like an animal in order to fulfill the requirements of an exercise in stepping or striking, this means that you need to find that animal inside. You might never have seen that animal in such a way, but that doesn't matter. The qualities. That's what matters. It is possible, and probable that some animals will be closer to you than others.
The intent becomes both the act of truly being yourself and dissociating that self into something else, which is somehow part of you too, maybe because it was already there but you didn't know it. The intent becomes an altered state of consciousness, but not in an unhealthy sense.
To do without doing is the highest form of intent.

Gaby