The Truth About Chan Tai Sam [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Shaolin Thunder

08-18-2006, 01:28 AM

Dale Dugas

08-18-2006, 02:37 AM

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Mr Punch

08-18-2006, 06:09 AM

Now go and stand on the naughty step.

This should be a fun thread... hope the CTS's get to it before it's locked!

Pork Chop

08-18-2006, 06:56 AM

screams "NYC TONG WAAAAARR!!!!" and hits the deck....

Green Cloud

08-18-2006, 06:59 AM

Ok then, Not sure if this is a joke or not since every statement on this thread is an absolute fabrication, but if anyone in the Fu Jow Pai org has a problem, you know where to reach me by phone or in person.

I'm not sure where this is coming from, but if anyone wants a problem over this, you got it. If anyone wants a piece of me, well I'll be at wongs '06 this sunday in Washington DC.

You want to make a Point!! Show up there and we could settle this in person. Other wise go blow your self.

greencloud.net

Lama Pai Sifu

08-18-2006, 07:26 AM

Green Cloud as well as other members of this forum are students of Chan Tai Sam of the lama pai organization have been spreading many false rumors about Wai Hong and the Fu Jow Pai. These individuals act like they are the only true martial artists and Chan Tai Sam is the only true master. I have a few statements for these individuals.

Shaolin Thunder,

Don't group all of CTS's disciples in one lump. I personally, have or had nothing bad to say about Ng Wai-Hung or the FJP organization. As a matter of fact, I cautioned others about spreading gossip about him/them when negative comments were posted over the last few weeks.

I can speak for my late teacher in saying that he never had bad things to say about Ng Wai-Hung; he said he was a good fighter and his KF was very good. He also said he was a good friend to him and NWH had helped him very much when he first came here to the US in the early 80's.

Again, don't take certain people's comments as a representation of ALL of CTS's people.

Please direct your comments at the individuals whom have offended you, directly. I have nothing to do with this situation.

That being said,

First of all, get his name right. For someone who is so knowledgable about the 'facts', you don't even know his name.

Secondly, since I am not or have not dissrespected Ng Wai-Hung or the Fu Jow Pai organization, I'll deal with your posts in this way;

If CTS's Kung-Fu was so bad, why did MANY (I and will not mentioned names of specific Sifu, however at least THREE OF THEM THAT I KNOW OF ARE/WERE HIGH LEVEL FU JOW PAI INSTRUCTORS) of Chinatown's Sifu learn from him (I can name at least three other big names of Chinatown Sifu) and have him teach thier students? And don't tell me that they did it so they can give him some face...

If you want the name of the three FJP instructors who trained with him (I personally watched him teach two of the on several occasions), you may Private message me or email me. I have no interest in disscrediting people or revealing info publically.

NO one is jealous of anyone. The Fu Jow Pai org. was one of the forerunners of Kung-Fu in the 70's in NYC. They helped put KF on the map here. I think any intelligent individual knows that and appreciates them for it. :)

The FJP org. has had a lot of private business aired out in public over the years. Chinese people like to gossip, who'd a thunk it? We've all read about Paul Koh mess, the Tak Wah expulsion, gangster accusations, etc. This is info that YOUR people have leaked out. Don't blame all the forum-goers for that stuff.

And, I have only talked about (the CTS teaching FJP instructors) from what I have personally seen. I have been there when he taught these people, there is no heresay involved.

As far as his students being dissrespectful to other Sifu, I guess that is your point of view. If any of his students were dissrespectful, it is not because Chan Tai-San taught them to be. He always made it a point to say good things about other Sifu, even when it was clear to his students that the individuals were not so worthy of his compliments.

Bottom line is, if you dont' like what someone said/says, take it up with the individual who said it. No sense trying to discredit a dead man's memory over some internet posts. I'm sure you and whowever you feel insulted NWH and the FJP org. can work out your difficulties in person or by phone.

Additionally, "who are you?" You have one post and you say you are from Beijing?

My Chinese friend, it's easy to talk smack from 8000 miles away. :)

Green Cloud

08-18-2006, 07:55 AM

I can't speak about anyone else in the CTS organization,but This guy is a fool to even want to go there on a publick forum. To make fun of a dead man and make up stuff like this takes a real coward, not to mention that this guy doesn't even have any contact info so I can tell him where to go.

cjurakpt

08-18-2006, 07:59 AM

Green Cloud as well as other members of this forum are students of Chan Tai Sam of the lama pai organization have been spreading many false rumors about Wai Hong and the Fu Jow Pai.

I am not aware of any such statements on the forum - they may exist, I just don't know about them personally, so I can't speak to those specifically...

These individuals act like they are the only true martial artists and Chan Tai Sam is the only true master. I have a few statements for these individuals.

I will be the first to say that he was not the only "true" master - but he was certainly one of the greats; proof? well, when the Chinese government chose to produce a video about some of the best martial artists alive at the time, he was on it (along with many others; and I still can't remember the name of the tape...guys?)

1. We knew and saw Chan Tai SHAMS kung fu, he was a fat stupid man with no skill and no accomplishments as a competitor or Sifu.

well, then when he performed at the many national CMA tournaments in the masterss shows, obviously all the applause must have been because people felt sorry for him...as for fat, sorry, not really - he had a protruding abdomen, yes; ever felt it? it was like a basket ball - firm and "bouncy", not flabby; as for stupid: God, where to begin? ok, if you manage to survive what he did, incoluding war, political upheaval, poverty, relocation to at least 3 foreign countries where he didn't speak the native language and do pretty well for himself - yeah, that's stupid...

2. This is obvious by his students who seem to disrespect all other Sifu,

ALL other? that's pretty generalized...

3. Who did chan tai sham defeat, not heresay but truth, who are the great champions in America or the orient that he defeated or his students.

what do you mean by truth? video tape? eyewitness accounts? some of us witnessed directly, or were told by people who witnessed first hand what they saw him do; anyway, I'd ask you the same question: who did your teacher defeat that is verifiable? as for students, well, I personally placed first in sparring at the last tournament I attended as his student (NACMAF, 1993) - that was men's advanced division - ok, it wasn't a "great champion" who I defeated - just Doc Fai Wong's son, so he probably had some skill...

4. When did he first start teaching here?

somewhere in the mid to late 1980's; so what?

Did not the other sifu build the great reputation that kung fu has in the U.S.?

which sifu in particular? the ones teaching in their rat-hole back street schools? the ones who were associated with gangster organizations? kung fu has never had a particularly stellar rep in the US...

Then why have his bad mannered students disrespected the many other Sifu who came before him? He is 50 years late in teaching here.

50 years late - what does that mean? he came when he came; in fact, when he came, a lot of students who had been studying with other "great" sifu came and studied with him

5. Chan Tai Sham visited Fu Jow Pai and disrespectfully tried to upstage a junior student at the kwoon, who promptly put Chain tai Sham on his back
in 4 seconds. The sham man left quickly embarrased, this was witnessed by many of the chinatown Sifu who quickly made him a laughing stock; they are still laughing at him

riiiight; and you were there for this "story" ? come on now, "truth, not hearsay" as you required above...

6. The Shamites are attacking Fu Jow Pai because we have been at the forefront of the kung fu renaissance, and they are jealous and envious of our accomplishments...thiers pale in comparison.

as for KF renaiissance, which one, exactly, is Fu Jow Pai at the head of? as for jealous, if you define it as "we couldn't give a collective crap about what FJP is doing these days", then yes, I guess that would be about right...

Mark Chang Dongzhimen, Beijing

Beijing? isn't Fu Jow Pai based in NYC? what connection do you have with them?

certainly, CTS was far from perfect - as we freely have stated on the CTS thread - he was at times difficult, uncompromising, irrational, unpredictable, etc. -(we like to call it "being human"); considering what he went through in his life, no surprise; toerh times, he was the exact opposite - there were a lot of positives; but the bottom line, WE were the ones who dealt with him on a daily basis, we were the ones who took care of him - not you; so, you realy are in no position to say anything about him at all

BTW, I haven't studied with CTS since 1993; I left him to pursue other things; I don't teach his style, my livelyhood has nothing to do with him or his teachings; I have no investment, personal or otherwise in what people say or think about him;

Mark, I have never said a thing about FJP or your teachers - personally, I don't give a crap about any of them; if you want to weigh invective at any of the posters on this board who you think have slandered you/your teacher/your lineage, go ahead, they are big boys, they can take care of themselves; but your attacks on CTS directly are totally innapropriate, especially the whole "having no skill part"; ok, then, if he was so unskilled, he obviously had nothing to teach that was worthwhile; so, if you travel to NY at all (you must, since you are so intimately tied to FJP), please let me know the next time you are in town: we can meet for "tea", and we can have a "conversation" and I can "explain" to you how useless Chan Tai San's kung fu is - specifically, I will gladly "discuss" full-contact staff techniques (I'll bring two with me, just in case yours doesn't clear custums...)

have a nice day, jerk

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 08:10 AM

Well, the obvious observation is, who is this troll? "Mark Chang"? Never heard of you... and we were in Chinatown, in Wai Hong's federation for YEARS... and you say you're in Beijing? Fu Jow Pai in Beijing? Or just conveinant that you aren't in NYC right now :rolleyes:

Regardless, EVERYTHING on this thread is total crap......

1. The Chinese government called Chan Tai San a living national treasure and put him in a movie (video of which was sold in Chinatown for years). Chan Tai San was coach of the Guangdong province martial arts team. Chan Tai San was a member of the national demonstration team. Oh, and two time all military sparring champion. Sure, no accomplishments :rolleyes:

2. Who did Chan Tai San defeat? Well, if you're in Beijing, get on a train and go to Guangzhou, and ask around. You pretty much can't go anywhere in Guangdong without hearing stories about Chan Tai San beating someone in a fight.

3. I know you're working with nothing here and trying to make stuff up, but at least try and come up with a story someone might believe.

No one put Chan Tai San "on his back" LMFAO, especially not in 4 seconds. Sifu laughing at him? Maybe nervous laughter, hoping he wouldn't kill them. A certain Bak Mei sifu talked some crap about sifu once. He called him up and asked him if he should come down to his school some time? That sifu the next day told all his students never to talk badly about CTS...

Again, try and come up with a story someone might believe...

4. Gus Kapros may have dug up some old Chinatown gossip, but you're responding like a 12 year old. And sorry to tell you, most of the gossip is true. as for FJP's great accomplishments? Really, what are they? They were a big school in the 70's. Now what? Most of the key figures have left to do their own thing. The Canal street school is closed. Wai Hung is semi retired I guess... but again, it's pretty simple

GROW THE F UP

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 08:15 AM

as for jealous, if you define it as "we couldn't give a collective crap about what FJP is doing these days", then yes, I guess that would be about right...

Yup, that would pretty much sum up my feeling....

Lama Pai Sifu

08-18-2006, 08:15 AM

You know, it's funny.

I have heard all kinds of things about my late-Sifu. I have heard people say he was stubborn, pig-headed, simple-minded, politically incorrect, obtuse, disrespectful, disagreeable, rude, foul-mouthed and a county bumkin with no regard for others feelings.

I would have to say that there is truth in everyone of these statements. But I have NEVER heard anyone say anything negative about his skills as a fighter, EVER. There wasn't a Sifu in NYC Chinatown that has ever or could ever have walked a mile in his shoes.

I've been to China. I've been to Toi-San where his is from. I have spoke to dozens of people who have seen him fight. I have spoke with people who have seen him kill. Remember, this man fought in WWII and fought during the cultural revolution: these guys didn't f*ck around.

He may not have been the best human being in the world, but he could kick some ass. As a matter of fact is was CTS, not Chuck Norris who only had two speeds; Walk and Kill!

Lama Pai Sifu

08-18-2006, 08:19 AM

Holy Crap!

At least 4 CTSers are on the forum at the same time, going to town on our enigmatic friend from Beijing! Hip Hip Horay!

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 08:22 AM

Don't sweat it Mike, this guy is just a troll....

No accomplishments? Ninja please :D

As Chris said, he beat Doc Fai Wong's son in sparring. He forgot to mention he also beat Jason Wong in weapons sparring.... yeah, that division also ;)

I took fourth in the nation in advanced souther long/short division at NACMAF behind Hung Stewart, Jason Wong and Daniel Tamazaki (Tat Mau's top student at the time)... and I'm not really known for my forms. I must have learned something

I seem to remember every year we went to NACMAF we won piles of trophies, that fat old man knew something. The first year I remember we won equal trophies in weapons, forms and sparring... kind of well rounded :p

Picture of Sifu Chan with his students and a pile of trophies
http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/tournament.jpg

Me, I've never taken CTS techniques and produced fighters, I mean other than those 3 world champions, 19 national champions, and that K-1 Max contract... nope, no fighting going on over here :p

Oh, and Fu Jow Pai so disresecpted Sifu Chan that they actually PAID the man to teach them.... Tak Wah, Kwan Shih Yu, Paul Vizzio, etc all studied with CTS at some point

Yao Sing

08-18-2006, 08:23 AM

I still think all tournaments should have a grudge match division for school and personal challenges.

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 08:27 AM

I still think all tournaments should have a grudge match division for school and personal challenges.

Oh please :rolleyes: Do you really think "Mark" would want to fight a CTS lineage person? Students of mine are active in Muay Thai, San Da and Mixed Martial Arts, and "Mark" is doing what?

But I guess we should let "Mark" in on some good news! Mike and I should be in Beijing at some point in near future, yes Mike? Maybe he'd like to cross hands with old guys, I'm trying to keep up the old, fat and stupid tradition in honor of my sifu :D

Lama Pai Sifu

08-18-2006, 08:33 AM

The Cat is out of the Bag! :eek: :D :) :p ;)

cjurakpt

08-18-2006, 11:03 AM

The Cat is out of the Bag! :eek: :D :) :p ;)

which cat, what bag?

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 11:06 AM

which cat, what bag?

As soon as we saw this post, Mike and I immediately bought air line tickets to Beijing. We are going to challenge Mark under old Shaolin rules, there are 72 tactics that are legal and 36 tactics that are illegal. Tonight we go to the fortune teller to pick the correct astrological date for the first challenge, in a series of 108.

;)

Actually, Mike and I are probably gonna be in Beijing for some other reason and I think probably Mark isn't in Beijing anyway :D

cjurakpt

08-18-2006, 11:11 AM

Actually, Mike and I are probably gonna be in Beijing for some other reason and I think probably Mark isn't in Beijing anyway :D

actually, I am Mark, cleverly disguisehed and this whole thing was a ruse just to get you guys to waster your money on plane fair to Beijing! Ha HAAA!:cool:

so, seriously, what's the occasion for you guys going?

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 11:15 AM

I am Mark! :rolleyes:

cjurakpt

08-18-2006, 11:25 AM

I am Mark! :rolleyes:

I love you, Mark...

David Jamieson

08-18-2006, 11:35 AM

1st post and it has to be a **** rant. :rolleyes:

I wonder if the mods will delete this as it should be tanked into the crudhole.

PangQuan

08-18-2006, 11:38 AM

lol @ "mark"

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 11:41 AM

I love you, Mark...

For the record, I enjoy oysters, not snails :D

cjurakpt

08-18-2006, 11:54 AM

For the record, I enjoy oysters, not snails :D

there are some who say that the eating of snails is more than...no, wait, that is to say, there are some snails who were once eating oysters and...no, that's not it - eating oysters is good for your digestion, whereas snails can give you gas...:confused:

oh, never mind...:mad:

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 12:00 PM

since we are on food topics.....

beans, beans
the musical fruit
the more you eat
the more you toot

:D

My next post will be entitled

"The Truth about Sam Dum Goy"

;)

spite1

08-18-2006, 12:02 PM

Quoting Ross:
"A certain Bak Mei sifu talked some crap about sifu once. He called him up and asked him if he should come down to his school some time? That sifu the next day told all his students never to talk badly about CTS..."

Ross, why don't you name a name? Your typical M.O. with such issues - Cleverly saying someting - without committing to saying anything.

What Pak Mei Sifu talked crap about your Sifu? Which one (as you imply here) had a fear of your late Sifu? And did my Sifu then eat his words???
Say something Ross - commit to something.

OK - well...
Here's a reiteration of the way it actually went down; posted on the southern forum by my sihing a while back - after this needed to be cleared up with Mike Parella (no disrespect to you intended at all, Mike - that thread had a friendly outcome):

Very respectfully worded by sihing IMO:

"As for what was spoken, I can say that at least on Sifu Chan's part, at no time did he have any animosity, hostile, ill or any negative words to say. Rather it was a tone of respect and friendship. In fact, the trivial incident at hand quickly shifted gears to reminiscing about Great Master Cheung Lai Cheun. You know how Chan Tai San gets when he speaks and gets excited - (as addressed to Kwong Sifu) "your Sifu (Cheung Lai Cheun) has very good kungfu,...very dangerous hands...very poisonous!...and so on" Conversation ended with let's go and "yum cha" when we have the chance.

Afterwards, I asked Sifu Chan have you met Sifu Kwong before? He said, " no", but he stated he did hear he was Cheung Lai Cheun's todei (student) during his(Chan Tai San)stay in Hong Kong after immigrating from China.

As far as what Sifu Kwong has told me, he never said any words or anything similar to that which you mentioned above. I am not sure what is the source of this information, but my feelings is that it may be some 3rd party who are interested in promoting conflict.
...

Anyway, I hope that this will help lighten any existing tension that may or may not have existed in the past or present, because this was not how Sifu Chan in life wanted the relation between him and Sifu Kwong to be."

And as far as my fellow sihing and sidai...none of us have ever heard our Sifu say anything negative about yours.
But you choose to take the opposite approach.
Please let me know if you want to continue this.

- Matt Martin

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 12:16 PM

Ross, why don't you name a name?

Well, I was trying to avoid that sifu's embarassment, but since YOU want to bring it up, yes, it was Kwong Man Fong.

And as far as my fellow sihing and sidai...none of us have ever heard our Sifu say anything negative about yours.

That's quite possible, depending upon when you were with your sifu. Because your sifu did "eat his words" and never said anything negative about Chan Tai San again after the phone call....

I am not sure what is the source of this information, but my feelings is that it may be some 3rd party who are interested in promoting conflict.

Well, hate to upset you, but your "feelings" are wrong. I was there when Sifu Chan made the phone call, in fact I dialed the number for him as he had forgot his reading glasses. I then sat and listened to the whole conversation....

As for what "actually went down", since you want to get into DETAILS... Sifu Chan had a student (no need to drag his name into it, sorry if that upsets you) who went to Sifu Kwong to also learn. Sifu Kwong and some of the Si-Hing told him and I quote that "Sifu Chan Tai San's Bak Mei is fake"...

Since the student in question was CHinese, he went back and told Sifu Chan. Thus the phone call...

So, if you want to get technical, Chan Tai San never had anything negative to say about your sifu. Your sifu on the other hand did have some negative stuff to say, at least in his closed door classes, about Chan Tai San. When called on it (literally), he stepped back and never did it again.

But you have a nice day, really

spite1

08-18-2006, 12:27 PM

;) your response is well-noted.

Hai_To

08-18-2006, 12:37 PM

David,

I thought that misunderstanding had been laid to rest…quite amicably too, if I recall correctly. I remember this being discussed on the Southern Kung Fu Online Community earlier this year by Mike Parella and Kenny Chin. That discussion seemed to resolve the situation, and reveal it for what it was…a misunderstanding.

The original posting http://southernkungfu.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~196~whichpage~2.asp:

Hey, Bok Mei people, have you ever heard that Cheung Lai-Chung re-structured the BM forms? Many years ago, some Kwong Man-Fong people tried to tell one of my students that my Sifu, Chan Tai-San, didn't have the 'real' Bok Mei - because our forms were different. Kwong Man-Fong told his students Chan Tai-San learned Bok Mei before CLC changed it (and he told them not to **** us off).

And the response http://southernkungfu.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~196~whichpage~3.asp:

Hi Mike how are you doing? It was good to see all you guys again, unfortunately it wasn't the best of circumstances at the funeral.

I usually don't do much reading on these martial art BBS, but I was recently informed of this matter. Normally, all information and emails are answered collectively by my Sihings/Sidai and Sifu under the above name. But I felt that I should comment individually because I have first hand knowledge about the conversation between Sifu Chan and Sifu Kwong. I was still learning from Sifu Chan at the time and was at his home when they spoke. As a matter of fact I was the one who dialed the telephone number. As you know he was in his senior years and he frequently asked all of us at one time or another to dial the phone for him.

As for what was spoken, I can say that at least on Sifu Chan's part, at no time did he have any animosity, hostile, ill or any negative words to say. Rather it was a tone of respect and friendship. In fact, the trivial incident at hand quickly shifted gears to reminiscing about Great Master Cheung Lai Cheun. You know how Chan Tai San gets when he speaks and gets excited - (as addressed to Kwong Sifu) "your Sifu (Cheung Lai Cheun) has very good kungfu,...very dangerous hands...very poisonous!...and so on" Conversation ended with let's go and "yum cha" when we have the chance.

Afterwards, I asked Sifu Chan have you met Sifu Kwong before? He said, " no", but he stated he did hear he was Cheung Lai Cheun's todei (student) during his(Chan Tai San)stay in Hong Kong after immigrating from China.

As far as what Sifu Kwong has told me, he never said any words or anything similar to that which you mentioned above. I am not sure what is the source of this information, but my feelings is that it may be some 3rd party who are interested in promoting conflict.

I did not know at the time whose number I was dialing nor do I know how he got Sifu Kwong's number. I guess it would not be hard considering many of Cheung Lai Cheun's students were still alive in NYC's Chinatown and were members of the Chin Family Association, such as Chan Seu Do, Chan Ho Bok, Chan Jim Kee, Chan Wor (Chan Do's student who intro me to Kwong Sifu). Sadly most of these people have passed on. Only 3 direct students of Cheung Lai Chun left in NYC- Chan Seu Do, my Sifu and the most senior student in NYC Yeun Bun Ho (not sure the proper spelling of his name, romanizing the sound from Toi San dialect)whom my father has seen as of late last year in his upper 80's now.

Anyway, I hope that this will help lighten any existing tension that may or may not have existed in the past or present, because this was not how Sifu Chan in life wanted the relation between him and Sifu Kwong to be.

take care, and hope to see you again soon.
Kenneth Chin

Kenny, great to hear from you! Thanks so much for the post. I actually heard about the conversation from one of our classmates - but you know how words can get switched around to suit peoples needs (or fantasies!). I appologized to your classmate (or the collective) for any misunderstanding to promote bad will between us - not my intention at all.

My real intention, from the earlier post, was to discuss if anyone had versions of BM that were different from the current versions being taught. You would be a good person to speak to, because you learned BM from Sifu CTS and are training with Sifu KMF. I'm very curious to know about the forms/techniques being different - what have you learned/observed about this?

We know that Sifu CTS had limited first hand training with Sifu CLC, a bit with him in the army and when he visited his friend (CLC student) at the school. I don't even remember the friend's name, but I've got it written down somewhere....

Anyhow, I don't mind discussing it on the forum, but you are more than welcome to email me at kungfu531@aol.com so we can chat futher. Great to hear from you, and I look forward to seeing you soon.

PS, I would like to meet Sifu CLC's most senior student whom you mentioned in the post. Can you arrange this?

Best of luck in your training,

Sifu Michael Parrella

Here is the thread that was referenced. As you can see, Kenny and Mike were very polite and the whole situation was cleared up. Why do you feel the need to rehash this?

Lama Pai Sifu

08-18-2006, 12:43 PM

I remember when this came up on the other thread. And yes, there was a friendly outcome. :)

I do remember being there as well, when the phone call was made even though I didn't hear it personally. However, I don't recall that is was Sifu Kwong Man-Fong who did any mud-slinging himself. To be fair, I was under the impression that it was a student of his who was spouting off at the mouth, my Sifu and his Sifu talked, ...everthing was settled.

It was not an issue of either Sifu 'backing down' or arguing with each other. I think it was a misunderstanding and David is correct in stating that KMF's people were told not to talk badly about CTS or his students. CTS didn't 'order' KMF to do this, they talked and as I understand it was settled amicably between them.

What no one is bringing up here is this; The reason why this happened in the first place - Our Bok Mei forms are different from KMF's forms. This is where the controversy started. A KMF guy said that SIFU Chan Tai-San's Bok Mei is not 'real.' (Whatever that means).

This about the same time which I was getting gas at a gas station one day, and some KMF student saw my school shirt (which had my SIFU's name on it) and started yelling at my from 75 feet away, how my (and my Sifu's) Bok Mei was crap! As I walked towards him to find out what the hell he was talking about, he got in his car and sped away. I had two people with me who witnessed the event; David Schwartz and Raphael Gomez. It was bizarre and I didn't think anything of it. Until a short time later when I arrived one day at my Sifu's house and started hearing all the hub bub.

Sifu Chan studied very little with CLC, but was often at his school and practiced with his good friend, a senior student of CLC. This was back in 30's, way before KMF was born (I believe). CLC had changed his forms since then which is why what we do, is different from what they do. Not too much different, but different all the same.

KMF told his students this info as well, and then told him the CTS's Bok Mei was 'real' just different. End of discussion.

NO Drama, just a phone call to straighten something out, which ended amicably.
Let's stay on the same track, okay?

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 12:48 PM

David,

Why do you feel the need to rehash this?

Dear lord, did you even read this thread? I didn't name Sifu Kwong until "spite" brought his name up...

but, despite any group hugs or "let's all just get along" feeling now, I was there when the original "mis understanding" happened.

I'm sorry, I hate PC, I hate re-writing history and I hate fakeness. Sifu Kwong did say some stuff, he got called on it, and he changed his tune. That's what happened. Students later on, YEARS later on, can try and gloss it over, make it seem like a misunderstanding, etc... but that's what happened.

And you know what? It should be such a big deal.... hate to break it to you guys, but very few people wanted to deal with an angry Chan Tai San. Remember, he actually KILLED people... which is why "Mark" aka "Shaolin Flatulance" post was so silly.... poorly educated country farmer, rude and crass, CTS certainly was, but as a fighter, he was the real deal, and ALL of Chinatown knew that

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 12:53 PM

Well, since Mike brought it up, Sifu Kwong seemed to have a lot of students who like to start trouble. When we first started teaching, one of Sifu Kwong's American students called me and said he wanted to come down and tell Chan Tai San that his Bak Mei was fake :rolleyes:

I told him I'd be happy to translate, but would take no responsibility for what Chan Tai San might do to him. The retarded guy then asked me what I meant and I told him in all probability Chan Tai San would smack the heck out of him... he suddenly declined to come down and share his thoughts with Sifu Chan :rolleyes:

Kung Fu people don't really speak English, so no one is really sure what "real" means? :cool:

David Jamieson

08-18-2006, 01:02 PM

This thread should be deleted.
It's obviously a troll post.

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 01:08 PM

This is in the Chan Tai San stories thread

"After studying Lama Pai, Sifu Chan met Chan Dik-Seung, the #2 student of Bak Mei techer Cheung Lai Chung (I looked it up, old issue of IKF with sifu's story, Oct 1996). Cheung Lai Chung was getting on in years, but he visited from time to time.

One problem was that Cheung Lai Chung had a policy of not letting people who had already studiend other methods learning Bak Mei. He did not like Sifu Chan studying, and Sifu Chan didn't help matters!

One day, Cheung Lai Chung agreed to show Chan Tai San a movement. Sifu Chan said he was happy to feel the energy in his hands and arms, but kept thinking the technique he was showing wouldn't work... So Sifu chan tried to grab his arm and kick him in the leg...

Cheung Lai Chugn easily avoided the attack, and was naturally upset. He his Chan Tai San back and told him he had no respect. Even as an older man, Sifu Chan said he had real speed and power"

This would mean it was in the mid 1940's.... Where was Kwong Man Fong in the mide 1940's??

spite1

08-18-2006, 01:25 PM

LOL ross wins again!
#1 undisputed internet warrior.

ya know I didn't respect you before this thread, but now I truly realize how hardcore you are.

see you soon...

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 01:32 PM

LOL ross wins again!
#1 undisputed internet warrior.

ya know I didn't respect you before this thread, but now I truly realize how hardcore you are.

see you soon...

See me soon? Are you challenging me? I guess you haven't realized, but I am anything but an "internet" warrior. I run a fighting gym. I train fighters...

I'm sorry that we all don't bow down to the Church of Kwong Man Fong (tm).... Chan Tai San trained with Cheung Lai Chung probably 10 years before Kwong did... get over it....

Hai_To

08-18-2006, 01:33 PM

This thread should be deleted.
It's obviously a troll post.

The original post...yes. David Ross's defamation of Sifu Kwong Man Fong...no.

Well, since Mike brought it up, Sifu Kwong seemed to have a lot of students who like to start trouble.

I believe that is called projection.

Dear lord, did you even read this thread? I didn't name Sifu Kwong until "spite" brought his name up...

Yes, though for Sifu Kwong Man Fong's students, the implication was clear. Did you really expect someone not to respond? You started this unpleasantness.

Sifu Kwong did say some stuff, he got called on it, and he changed his tune.

I was there when Sifu Chan made the phone call, in fact I dialed the number for him as he had forgot his reading glasses. I then sat and listened to the whole conversation....

However, I don't recall that is was Sifu Kwong Man-Fong who did any mud-slinging himself. To be fair, I was under the impression that it was a student of his who was spouting off at the mouth, my Sifu and his Sifu talked, ...everthing was settled.

So, which is true? Did Sifu Kwong Man Fong "say some stuff" or did one of his students? You were both there, right? As was Kenny Chin, though his post clearly implies that he was alone with Sifu Chan. He stated that he dialed the number for Sifu Chan, whereas David states the he dialed the number. Which is true?

NO Drama, just a phone call to straighten something out, which ended amicably.
Let's stay on the same track, okay?

I thought you and I were on the same track. David seems to be on a different one.

This would mean it was in the mid 1940's.... Where was Kwong Man Fong in the mide 1940's??

Are you disputing Sifu Kwong Man Fong's lineage? If so, please state so openly. If not, stop trying to play coy. Your own Sifu stated that Kwong Man Fong was Cheung Lai Chun's todei. What is the point of your comment?

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 01:40 PM

You started this unpleasantness.

Sorry, I know I'm not a member of the "Church of Kwong Man Fong" (tm) but that doesn't change the fact that Sifu Kwong and his students "started the unpleasantness"

How do you think the students got the idea that Sifu Chan's Bak Mei was "fake"? Did they come up with that idea all on their own? Or was it because Sifu Kwong was saying he was the only real Bak Mei sifu in NYC? :rolleyes:

Are you disputing Sifu Kwong Man Fong's lineage? If so, please state so openly. If not, stop trying to play coy. Your own Sifu stated that Kwong Man Fong was Cheung Lai Chun's todei. What is the point of your comment?

Did you fail logic 101? Sifu Chan never said that Kwong's Bak Mei wasn't real. Sifu Kwong on the other hand said Sifu Chan's wasn't... so the only issue is, was CTS's Bak Mei "real"

Let's see, CTS studied with Cheung Lai Chung. He studied with him 10 years before Kwong did. So, that would make CTS Bak Mei real... which is why Kwong cut the nonsense...

I'm sorry if you can't follow that, but it's basic logic

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 01:46 PM

as fun as this has been :rolleyes: and all, I've got to run. Have to take some students to do some full contact fighting, with our fake kung fu ;)

if you want to continue this later, that's fine with me

Hai_To

08-18-2006, 01:50 PM

I was under the impression that Chan Tai San studied with Chan Dik-Seung.

Did you fail logic 101? Sifu Chan never said that Kwong's Bak Mei wasn't real. Sifu Kwong on the other hand said Sifu Chan's wasn't... so the only issue is, was CTS's Bak Mei "real"

Straw man: I wasn't referring to Sifu Chan Tai San stating or implying that Sifu Kwong Man Fong wasn't real. I was referring to your comments.

cjurakpt

08-18-2006, 05:47 PM

what happened to Shaolin Blunder? I was expecting at least a few good back and forth posts with the guy...nuts:(

lkfmdc

08-18-2006, 10:36 PM

I was under the impression that Chan Tai San studied with Chan Dik-Seung.

I think my post and the interview were pretty clear, Chan Tai San studied with both Chan Dik-Seug and Cheung Lai Chung. Less with Cheung, but with him none the less. So Chan Tai San's Bak Mei isn't "fake"... It remains quite an interesting point, Sifu Chan never said a certain person's version wasn't "real" etc yet some others found it necesssary to speak badly about him...

My other comment was equally clear, how could Kwong call Chan Tai San "fake" when Chan Tai San was doing Bak Mei 10 years before Kwong was?? It's just a simple observation...

Green Cloud

08-18-2006, 10:59 PM

Wow has this thread digressed what happened to Lama Vrs. Miew Jow Miao is all I have to say.:D

shabinko

08-19-2006, 02:36 AM

NYC Lama Pose is under fire... Funny funny :D ;)

Hey Hai To,
Hope your in for a long haul coz you know theese guys don't let up.
Theyr'e always right you see. And also Chan Tai Scam was the Be-all End-all of CMA.

Lama Pai Sifu

08-19-2006, 05:54 AM

Shabinko,

I thought you got your spanking after you posted clips of your teacher doing some 'forms', remember?

But, I digress. Oh, hell with it; I'll just post the links. It's always a shame when people get duped.

Wait! The links have been mysteriously removed! And what's more, so have the posts and threads where people posted their comments about them! Astounding!

Shabinko, you're a student of a guy who went to Hong Kong a few times and learned a few forms from LWK. Nuff said.

Please be quiet when the big people are talking. :D

shabinko

08-19-2006, 09:04 AM

False... Grrrrrr :rolleyes:
I wanna be I wanna be I wanna be like Mike...

But your right, I should mind my own buisness when I don't have any valuable input I guess. I could contribute some things of a slightly different context but that just wouldn't be right...

Lama Pai Sifu

08-19-2006, 09:54 AM

OH, I see we are on a first name basis now...

But you are correct here. You should mind your own business, 'mate'! :D

Some of us here have been in thier arts for almost 30 years, you are WAAAAY to new at this to be jumping in here... stay in the kiddy pool.

And there is sooo much crap out there in the name of CMA that some of us just call it like it is; bunch of posers and dissillusioned masses, thinking that they learned some mystic Chi-Blast, or imagining that they are shaolin monks...

CTS was a real KF fighter. He Killed people. He was one of the last of his generation and there will be no more like him, period. He found in wars and fought with people to the death.

The fact that any of you try to soil his accomplishments or skills is laughable at best. In most cases, your Sifu's Sifu's have not trained with such a high caliber CMAer.

Three quarters of everyone who teaches CMA in this country, isn't worth a sh1t; They came this country after studying for a few years in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Mainland (Just like any of you have done) and they moved here when they were in their late teens, or early twenties. Fast forward to 2006, they have been teaching here for 30+ years, and everyone thinks they are experts. Not to mention, there are quite a few of them who stick together and support each other - makes it easier for them to get credibility.

I think there are a lot of Sifu's in this country/other countries who are excellent. But for every 1 of them, there are 30 phonies. Not my problem, but it's a fact nonetheless. And no one ever acknowledges or realizes that they are training with a phony until they see something far better (but usually thier eyes are closed) or someone points it out to them. :)

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 10:19 AM

The more things change, the more they stay the same. When Chan Tai San was alive, there were people jealous of his accomplishments and insecure about their own skills. Even though he's gone, I guess there are still those same sorts of people and even a late master can upset them...

Anyone talking crap about Chan Tai San should pretty immediately demonstrate they don't have a clue. But we've already been through this;

1. Government of China named him a living national treasure and put him in a movie.

2. Coach of the Guangdong Martial Arts Team

3. Member of the national demonstration team

4. Two time all military sparring champion

When CTS was alive, he was one of the few people walking around who had actually USED his Kung Fu and had used it MANY times. Like Mike just said, how many "masters" are individuals who learned in their schools and maybe defended themselves once or twice against an untrained attacker?

Chan Tai San had numerous duels with other kung fu fighters

He fought in three wars (WW II, Civil War and Cultural Revolultion)

He was an "organizer" for the Chinese Communist Party when they took over in 1949. His job was to go to the organized crime groups and tell them to "turn themselves in"... think that was an easy job?

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 10:28 AM

All I have left of this picture is a photocopy but it's all the coaches that were in Southern China. Chan Wai Gun, "Iron Head", Tam Jan and several guys who circularted in NYC are in this pic. All the ones who I met over the years all said the same thing, Chan Tai San was the undisputed #1 fighter and none of these guys could best him....

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 10:34 AM

Oh, I forgot one of CTS's other accomplishments, hand to hand combat instructor for the Fut San special forces....

I remember a long time ago having dinner with Ho Chi Yu, Chiu Leun's #1 student in 7 Star Praying mantis, and we were talking about CTS (who Chi Yu also learned from) and Chi Yu pulls out Sifu's card and says "do you know how many people wish they could have a card like this? With these accomplishments?"

Yao Sing

08-19-2006, 10:44 AM

When CTS was alive, he was one of the few people walking around who had actually USED his Kung Fu and had used it MANY times.

You know, there are plenty of people out there that have used their KF. Some even post on this forum. I think that comment is a little extreme.

If you're restricting it to Kung Fu teachers that may be closer to the truth but when you factor in military, police, bouncers, etc. the claim is ridiculous.

Even one of hskwarrior's student used his in a violent street encounter. It happens, obviously more than you think.

I had a Karate teaher who worked for the CIA in Vietnam. He used his skills under life and death situations multiple times. I know some ex-Navy Seals too. Don't cut these guys short.

Yao Sing

08-19-2006, 10:47 AM

So what does the card say? I don't read Chinese.

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 02:15 PM

hahahaha and the fighters in china where good fighters?? Come on look at the grandmasters of Pak Hok vs Wu style taiji that was a disgraceful fight. Put any of those masters even today in china against MMA pro fighters and they would get owned. I know some Sifu's that have been in the #1 SEAL TEAM for over 25 years started kung fu in the 70's been on tours and done there time. You think they havent killed does it make them hardcore? lol Many people even young kids are at war right now fighting for there lives, they hand them a gun and some rounds and they live day by day. When you have backing from the chinese gov like CTS may have he had some power and used it for his own good was he a good person, was he really that good at fighting, was the people he fought that good or just good at showing forms and had the tittle as sifu as you see today in most of the world. How many sifu is fighting pro these days? How many of Lama pro fighters use traditional techniques in the ring?

I think you guys sugar coat things alittle too much just like most kung fu stories of all systems. Flying monks, tea houses, killers, hardcore, death matched...puh

Where do i put the bets on for Bak Mei vs Lama? :P

Green Cloud

08-19-2006, 02:56 PM

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 03:13 PM

How old was your sifu in some of those clips demonstrating?

Flying-Monkey

08-19-2006, 03:41 PM

My sifu has been dead for about 2 years now and I still have not been able to find another sifu. The reason for this is that most of the so called masters monks and so forth are no better them me, this in no way is a dis it's just a testament to how good my sifu was. As far as any other sifu's that claim to have the same skill well they couldn't even hold a candle to my jock strap.

What a bout Sigung Chan Sau Chung? When I went on tour with him abour 5 years ago, I noticed that all of the older masters we had dim sum with said the same thing: Your teacher is a good fighter. They really didn't mention the monkey, which he is famous. After talking to Sigung, he told me that he got into a lot of fighter when he was younger. He had the "little guy" complex.

Royal Dragon

08-19-2006, 03:59 PM

My sifu has been dead for about 2 years now and I still have not been able to find another sifu.

Reply]
If that is the case, the only thing you can do, is to train with your brothers.

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 04:35 PM

Did CTS do any internal training or just all hard chi kung?

Yum Cha

08-19-2006, 04:35 PM

I still want to know how two guys dialled the same phone at the same time...

...pass the popcorn

Yao Sing

08-19-2006, 05:26 PM

I went back and re-read the quote thinking I misunderstood something but I'm still confused on this as well.

Who dialed the phone, Ken or Dave?

Lama Pai Sifu

08-19-2006, 05:57 PM

To answer Garry's question; Chan Tai-San wasn't about internal. He was about punching and kicking, poking and clawing people until the fell down and didn't want or couldn't fight anymore.

Not pretty, not fancy.

He also represented his city (Toi-San) in actual gloved western-style boxing matches in the 40's and 50's. He won the title for his division in Canton. When I went back to Toi-San last year, I met with people who knew him then and actually saw his pro-fights and many KF fights that he had.

He didn't fight 'forms masters', quite honestly, they werent' around in the quantities that they are today. He was a hard-core fighter and fought with people who 'walked the talk'.

His generation learned kung-fu for survival and as a way to earn a living. It was a hard life and he wasn't the nicest person as a result of it.

Now, it doesn't mean that his disciples are as good as he, or that any of us are hard-core. (Doesn't mean we're not either ;) )

It does mean that we got the benefit of learning from someone who was in the trenches, who fought with people, killed people and lived to tell the story. If any of you had seen the scars on CTS head, body and legs, you'd know exactly what we mean.

He had a different perspective on what works and what doesn't; based on his personal experiences of hitting people for survival. Few teachers, in this country have ever had those experiences.

Doesn't make him the best KF guy, doesn't make his students the best either. Just shows you what we had to work with.

If I wanted to learn about race car driving, I'd learn from a guy who had raced and won. If I wanted to learn about business, I'd learn from a guy who had monsterously successful ones. I wouldn't want to learn about being a writer, from some idiot professor in college, who had never written anything professionally.

People pay to learn stuff from people who have vast experiences, as a matter of fact, they pay a lot. Chan Tai-San was a guy who had more experience in fighting in wars, and life and death matches, than anyone I've ever read or heard about. This is what made him a valuable teacher.

If any of you are 'hating' ask yourself; who do you know or have trained with that has fought and actually Killed people using their hand to hand combat skills?

Face it: CTS was a worldwind of death (able to frighten even the likes of Chuck Norris) (I hope Chuck doesn't see me write this) and many people are jealous because they will never learn anything from someone like him.

Sad, but true. So don't 'hate', 'congratulate!' :) LOL

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 06:37 PM

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 07:08 PM

Yum Cha,

I have Malteses and jaffers will that do? :)

Was CTS accepted in Bak Mei to teach or just started teaching without CLC knowing about it?

Garry

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 07:17 PM

Fiercest tiger... if all the fighters in China sucked, then all the people in your lineage must have sucked, you included maybe? Obviously, your post makes no sense.

Try and remember that Chan Tai San didn't fight one tour of duty, he fought in three wars... He joined the army in 1937 to fight the Japanese and was fighting until 1944... he fought in the civil war from 1946 until 1949 when he was captured, tortured and kept in a POW camp for around 4 months. He then fought in the cultural revolution. Do you think it's easy to live through that much combat?

Of course, Mike just mentioned the boxing matches. I also mentioned in the past his matches with Japanese Judo fighters where honor was on the line.

I could also once agan mention the incident on 42nd street where in his 60's three guys with knives jumped him. That was covered by the Daily News and Newsday...

Obviousy, Chan Tai San had skills, you can deny it if you want. But it's a fact. Most people seem to accept it...

As for other misc BS, I dont' know why Kenny Chin thinks he made the call, unless maybe he DID, at another time. When I made the "call" I was there alone. Kenny wasn't there. Maybe CTS called Kwong Man Fong more than once? If that's your "smoking gun" then you've actually got a water pistol :rolleyes:

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 07:22 PM

How many of Lama pro fighters use traditional techniques in the ring?

Chyuhn Choih: straight punches

Gok Choih: Short hooks

So Choih: long hooks

Hyuhn Jaang: Elbows

Saat Da: Knees

Boh Chouh Cham Seh: low round kicks

Chyuhn Sam Teui: straight kicks

Chaai Teui: Side kicks

Paau Choih: uppercuts

Pek Geuk: sweeps

I could go on, but my fighters use CTS techniques all the time in their fights; Muay Thai, San Da, kickboxing, mixed martial arts

Or do they only count if we wear silk PJ's and call out the names of the techniques while we do them? :rolleyes:

Is there another TCMA group or lineage in the northeast who produces fighters like my school does? I mean, if you want to compare CTS to the other "Chinatown Masters", what fighters have they produced?

Lama Pai Sifu

08-19-2006, 07:25 PM

There are No Haters just doesnt sound right what you are speaking!

Do you think he could have beaten fighters of todays callibre of MMA, NHB.

Who was the boxers in china in the 40's pro's or just navy etc?

gARRY

Garry, I cannot understand what you say sometimes. 'just doesn't sound right what you are saying?" What does that mean?

And as far as CTS fighting MMA and NHB guys of today? Well, I dont' think he'd do to well against guys who outweigh him by 200 lbs. (he was between 135 and 160 / He has diabetes and as a result his weight would fluctuate).

I mean seriously, If you can't poke the guy in the eyes, hit him in the throat or squeeze his sack, how on earth is anyone going to beat a person who is double your weight AND knows how to fight? Hell, I'm a solid 205 lbs. when I'm in fighting shape, and I would like to see any 135 lbs guy beat me...

I think size and strength play a HUGE factor. That is why there are weight classes. And I never saw CTS in a real fight, although I've heard lots of stories. If you put him up against someone from the world of NHB within his own weight class, (NHB ; as in anything REALLY goes, no rules) my money would be on the Chan-ster.

I do know for a fact that a famous boxer he fought (he lost to him the first two times and won the third) was at least 8 inches taller and outweighed him by 60 lbs.

CTS did it all at the time; he fought in real fights, he fought in KF competitions, he fought in pro-boxing matches and he fought in the army. He had a 2" X 1/2" scar on the back of his head, a banonet scar above his knee, cuts from knives on various parts of his body, had his arm broken (the bone from the shoulder to elbow) almost all of his teeth knocked out and machine gun bullet scars on both his legs. He was the real deal.

People can say what they want, especially now that he is dead. But let me tell you, nobody ever dared say a thing about his skill when he was alive. And for the very few times it did happen, and Teachers in Chinatown saw it on more than one occasion; try to say he was old or not tough and you got punched in your face quick. CTS did not talk smack or play around.

Anyway, enough about this. He is dead. Any speculation regarding what he could do today or against so and so is purely conjecture and a waste of breath.

By the Power of Grayskull, "Let this thread by done!"

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 07:40 PM

Thanks Ross,

Only counts with the wrist bands that CTS wore and not the PJ'S! :rolleyes:

Maybe i do suck, maybe i can fight who knows, this rule applies to you also mate, you maybe a good teacher but as a fighter i havent seen you fight to judge you, do you have any clips?;)

What about the other masters that also fought and got caught i know my sifu also was in it and my sigung with the students fighting side by side. What about the chinese that didnt know how to fight and still fought that is courage as well.

Kudo's for you producing kung fu fighters, your school has been open along time now and you market your system well to get fighters in that want to go out and fight. This is the problem with most KUNG FU schools is that they do way too many forms and then get there next level or sash and next minute they are instructors with no fighting knowledge. Maybe its not CTS that has influenced you but this is what you have liked to do since training martial arts? CTS just gave you better insight of how to fight??

I prefer that all competition for full contact is MMA not san sau as it lets the person use his advantages when he can.

Garry

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 07:42 PM

I was there the night the guy who looked like he had Muay Thai training showed up (ie the guy's stance, footwork and hand position). Sifu dropped him with one punch.... I saw it, I can't say how good the other guy was, but I can tell you it was a very hard punch to a very vulnerable part of the body ... and at 60 something CTS was still very fast...

CTS taught kicking, punching and throwing. Not BJJ... his ground wasn't like BJJ, it was kick the legs, sweep, try to get back up, like most TCMA.. put him against Royce Gracie and he probably wouldn't have done well... against a lot of the strikers from the period of UFC 1-5 if they were close to his weight, CTS would have been competitive in my opinion.

You can't compare a guy from the 30's through 50's (when CTS was young) to the top elite MMA fighters of today... you can't even compare the pro MMA fighter of 10 years ago to the pro MMA fighters of today (Royce vs Hughes anyone?)... fighting, if done right, evolves....

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 07:48 PM

Maybe i do suck, maybe i can fight who knows, this rule applies to you also mate,

I think you're sort of missing the point. Not only have I fought (nothing special, I've said many times I was an amateur, and not a great amateur at that, B level maybe) but I continue to train and work with fighters. I have a BJJ brown belt in my school and roll with him 2 times a week. So I have no illusions.

I compare that with far too many so called TCMA places where they don't work with fighters, don't compete and yet think they are great fightes...

Kudo's for you producing kung fu fighters, your school has been open along time now and you market your system well to get fighters in that want to go out and fight. This is the problem with most KUNG FU schools is that they do way too many forms and then get there next level or sash and next minute they are instructors with no fighting knowledge.

See what I just said above!

I always thought martial arts was about fighting. I always wanted to learn more about fighting. I dedicated myself to CTS as opposed to many other area lineages because that is what he was about and the material he gave me was real

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 07:52 PM

He should have been called SCARE FACE!

Well i dont believe stories as half of them about Chinese Masters are always over the top. Just like a teacher fighting 30 gangstars in the docks and hunting down 20 of them and maiming the rest, for the love of god maybe they fight the spastic center you know. You must be able to see through the B.S from time to time.

I enjoy reading your stories of your teacher but as you was not there and only go off heresay that to me doesnt count. Some of the people that was telling the stories was his friends or kung fu brothers of course they talk it up. But he did have alot of scares! :)

Well if it works for you and your students thats all that matters!

Are you actively fighting?

Garry

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 07:57 PM

When I was in my 20's my family asked me not to fight and so I missed all my "prime years"... I tried to make a "come back" in my early thirties and tore my shoulder in three places. Now I'l old, injured and trying to run a business. I have fun playing with my students and training, but I'm not a fighter.

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 08:00 PM

No No i do understand your point, i know you have a BJJ guy at your gym read that on MMA.TV. :)

Like i said adding the ground game to your system is very very important as i also am doing alot of groundwork and somehow see alot of Catch type hooking in my system. I am hoping to have a go in a BJJ or submission grappling comp by the end of this year as there is no kung fu competing in grappling much at all in OZ. I teach YKM Grappling and designed my own sylubus from YKM Internal system which im very keen to enter the submission competition even at 37 yrs old. I also fought full contact kickboxing and kung fu back in the 80's and 90's i also was an amature but i had a go. I have had students fight and win! That being said its hard to find dedicated student that want to fight, maybe new york is the place of rage and anger and thats why you pull them in?

Well as lama sifu said by the power of greyskull lol was one of my favourite cartoons by the way.:)

Lama Pai Sifu

08-19-2006, 08:00 PM

Garry, I appreciate the comments.

I have heard many stories from friends of CTS.

I also went to Toi-San (His hometown) and met people that didn't even know him personally, but they had seen him fight. There were some pretty cool accounts of his fights by perfect strangers.

Actively fighting? No, not now, however, I'm planning on fighting in some San Da matches in about 8 months or so. Just started eating right again and I hit the gym this week. I plan on spending some time with David and having him help me get ready.

After the San Da, maybe some MMA, who knows? I've talken some BJJ, not too much, I'm much more about the striking. I'll keep ya posted. Been teaching and running my schools for over 15 years, I'm kinda excited about getting back to fighting.

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 08:08 PM

Sorry missed one of your post! lol

See i get excited when people talk to me, thats not often!!! ;)

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 08:13 PM

Cool stuff, MMA alittle different i guess you better learn some ground game?:D

Whats good about ground game is it is very technical at time, i prefer no Gi although i went and rolled at Elvis sinosics school as my friend was training there for years. Now he is in Phucket teaching and doing more Muay Thai in a camp!

Well what can i say if people saw CTS fight and can tell you with no B.S i respect that! I take that back!!;)

Gaz

lkfmdc

08-19-2006, 08:16 PM

I've also heard completely unsolicited stories from random strangers about CTS and his fights.... I've even heard "enemies" of CTS grudgingly tell me stories

As for MMA, when we first started doing matches we used a lot of Lama anti grappling concepts to keep the fight standing and break the clinch. We did well. But as I have guys who want to go pro and fight UFC and PRide some day we needed a high level BJJ person, which Carmine Zocchi IS! :D

fiercest tiger

08-19-2006, 08:25 PM

Yeah there is nothing wrong with BJJ my friend, they are some of the best ground fighters if not the best!

My goal before im too old is to try out for the Arbu Dharbi trials i dont care if i win or lose but that is something i want to do for myself!

Gaz

Scott R. Brown

08-20-2006, 01:26 AM

If I wanted to learn about race car driving, I'd learn from a guy who had raced and won. If I wanted to learn about business, I'd learn from a guy who had monsterously successful ones. I wouldn't want to learn about being a writer, from some idiot professor in college, who had never written anything professionally.

This is always a reasonable plan, however I would point out that Bela Karoli has never danced on a balance beam in his life and yet trains world champion FEMALE gymnasts!!;)

fiercest tiger

08-20-2006, 02:22 AM

same applies for many boxing coaches!!

Lama Pai Sifu

08-20-2006, 05:58 AM

This is always a reasonable plan, however I would point out that Bela Karoli has never danced on a balance beam in his life and yet trains world champion FEMALE gymnasts!!;)

True, but at least they have accomplished something noteable! I agree that a good martial arts teacher can help to develop a great martial arts student. Not every teacher is super-skilled physically, but they can be super-skilled mentally.

I know many teachers like this; they were okay fighters, good at forms, but never great at either. But thier knowledge was astounding and they could teach people very well. It's not uncommon.

And with the Bela Karolis, and Cus D'Amatos, they are a lot fewer and far between than we realize. Those guys were exceptional. That's why they stick out in our mind.

Royal Dragon

08-20-2006, 06:50 AM

There are more Bela Karolis than we think though, Just because someone has the skills as he, does not mean they have the oppertunities he did.

My daughter came up in a gymnastics club that was at the time, one of the top 5 in the country (the owner was college room mates wiith Shannon Miller's coach). They had an phenominal, world class Romanian coach there, who literally PUT THAT CLUB ON THE MAP. She never aspired to own her own club, but instead was happy working, and coaching for the gym she was at.

She built all the talent that ever came from there, but when it came credits time, the owner of the gym got it all. And yes, he is also a world class coach, but he never worked with anyone but his top athletes. However, none of them would have gotten that good with out my daughter's coach, and when she left that gym, the scores of every level, except the very top, plumeted down into the average range. Now, last I heard, most of his top gymnasts come form other clubs, where as they used to all be home grown.

Funny though, the athletes at the gym she moved to are rising to the top rapidly. So even though coaches of that caliber are rare, they are not as rare as one would think. We just don't allways see them because very few are in the limelight. And of the few that ARE, many have equall, or better talent underneath that are supporting them.

Royal Dragon

08-20-2006, 06:55 AM

Also, once a name gets well known, they attract the top talent. Often times, a top coach is not very good at getting a beginner to go anywhere. He is a master at putting the final polish on an athlete.

It's often the unknown coach, who built the athlete's foundation and developed their skills and talents that did the real work. There are many more of those than one thinks.

lkfmdc

08-20-2006, 08:18 AM

Maybe he's not an Olympic champion, but he's had a record of training Olympic champions... he hasn't just sat in the stands, explaining to random people willing to listen how IF he had a chance he'd win or train winners....

Not every fight trainer is a good fighter. I am NOT a great fighter. I am however a pretty good coach ;)

But, sadly, in TCMA there are a lot of people who are neither fighters NOR trainers, but have opinions...

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one and most smell :D

Faruq

08-20-2006, 06:22 PM

"lkfmdc
I'm right, TRUST ME!

As for kung fu, fighting and fighters....

I've met a lot of traditional fighters. I know people that are from traditional lineages that are stone cold killers. If you've paid attention, I never said that there arent' ANY skilled fighters in TCMA. What I've said is that they are a very small percentage of those who trained...

Being in the Mo Lum for YEARS, meeting all sorts, having seen "inside" in ways many have not, even having trained with some very shady types, I've come to see that when it came to TCMA, the fighters were based not so much on the quality of their training or getting any sort of secrets...

Rather, the fighting tradition in TCMA is based upon the "tough guy"... INdividuals who would have been nasty and dangerous regardless, based upon the lives they led and the things they experienced.

Sifu Chan was a bad kid from DAY ONE. He would go down into the village below the temple, get into fights, hang out with gangsters and revolutionaries. He challenged western boxers. The monks found him impossible! Jyu Chyuhn beat him constantly with good reason!

Sifu Chan then went on to be a career military man. In China, career military wasn't all that different from being an all out crimminal. Know anything about Chang Kai Shek and his green gang connections?"

Are triads like the ones that were involved in the revolution into martial arts? If so, is each triad associated with a certain art, or do different triad members just study the arts they like? Has it ever been that a specific triad would be associated with a specific art?

htowndragon

08-20-2006, 09:33 PM

no.

not all triads do MA either. my grandpa was green gang back in the day and he doesnt do MA, he does calligraphy and takes walks at ridiciulously early hours in the morning. he's around 90 and walks faster than me

Lama Pai Sifu

08-21-2006, 06:33 AM

Sifu Chan was a bad kid from DAY ONE. He would go down into the village below the temple, get into fights, hang out with gangsters and revolutionaries. He challenged western boxers. The monks found him impossible! Jyu Chyuhn beat him constantly with good reason!

Why do you say he was a bad kid from day one? Or, how do you come to this conclusion?

And which monks found him impossible?

I don't know who you are Faruq, and I am curious as to how you make such statements. Possibly we know each other and I don't recognize your screen name. You may PM me if you wish?

Not being hostile, just looking to put a face/name to the screen name. :)

Thanks.

The Xia

08-21-2006, 08:49 AM

Why do you say he was a bad kid from day one? Or, how do you come to this conclusion?

And which monks found him impossible?

I don't know who you are Faruq, and I am curious as to how you make such statements. Possibly we know each other and I don't recognize your screen name. You may PM me if you wish?

Not being hostile, just looking to put a face/name to the screen name. :)

Thanks.
Faruq is actually quoting David from the "Chan Tai San Stories" thread.

Ray Pina

08-21-2006, 09:39 AM

The posts by Coach Ross on page 5 are the best I've ever read by him. My respect for him right now is off the chart!

He doesn't have to be a competing UFC fighter to have technology and skills that are merited. His master obviously taught him right, if he is wise enough and humble enough to realise all fighting technology evolves... fighters from 15 years ago can't compete with fighters today. But fighters from 15 years ago have the experience to adopt their technology with what is going on today and pass it along to the next generation.

Seems like Master CTS had what it takes to get through the things he needed to get through in his life. I don't know if Coach Ross is training his men in lethal techniques or not (I'd guess they come up and then ring-friendly alternatives of presented) but what they have is enough to be competing and WINNING in competitions with a serious level of violence. Those San Da fights are no joke: a lot of pressure against dedicated, motivated fighters.

Those that know the man have their reasons for respecting him, whatever they are. Why speak out against him if you don't know him?

All too often in MA are we quick to knock someone off their pedestal. No need, there's enough room and opportunity to build your own.