Final Fantasy 8: The fake within

[maoshan]

How many of you on this board actually train the way you claim? How Many of you who train with "
Famous teachers" are making progress? If you don't
atleast train with a teacher a minimum of 3x a week and see them every 6 months, forget good,
can you reach a level of proficiency?

And one last question. A lot of you people talk about the correlations between Ba-Gua and the I- Ching. Does anybody on this board know about the Song's? the 36 and the 48? Does any body use them
in thier training?

These Questions have been asked because my classmate and I have been away from the boards for a minute, but sometimes we get a chance to look in and we're seeing some things coming out of certain camps that should'nt be said. Why because we've meet some of the people from those camps. And they had nothing.
This is bad.
I'm talking about people who have suppose to have been training for over 6 & 7 years who can't stand
up to beginners with less than 2yrs training with no previous training before learning with us.
People are nipping bits and pieces of the various post and creating thier fantasy experiances and are claiming knowledge. Not out right saying this,
but by the way they are writing you'd think so.
So those of you who know please answer the questions. the rest of you, stop Frontin


Maoshan

[denali]

I think you're right.. you probably are the best martial artist here.

[TheBigToad]

Actually Maoshan if you could point me in a good direction to sources of unquestionable reputation on the Songs of Bagua that would be great. My teachers only really spoke from YiJing and so that what I have to go on and make work from that, however I'm totally open to expanding Bagua knowledge and has Razak tells me you guys are the "butters".

-Kevin

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[virus fist]

AT LAST!!!!

"HE" is back.

Everybody,rejoice,

Everybody, better watch out.

Master "walking enciclopedia of knowledge" is back,to enlighten us with his benevolence and wisdom.

Greeting,venerable one and welcome.


VF

[maoshan]

denali:

What's up with you?
How do you come to this conclusion.
Personally I think i'm crap in comparison to what
i want. make it clear.


Kevin:
There are two books in english that contain the song's

Liang Shou yu's and Li Zi Ming's.
From my research Li Zi Ming was handed the original and that's the one I subscribe to.
"Liang Zhen Pu Ba Gua Zhang" Translated by Dan Miller.

Virus fist:
What's up with you man?
You can't get over it or something. Study the topic indepth and maybe you'll understand or maybe you did and can't handle the truth. Ether
way you playin yourself with the walking encyclopedia crack. can you deny anything i've posted? If so, Bring the noise. Better yet let's meet. Were Martial Artist let's handle it as such.

Now with the exception of Kevin, can anybody answer my questions?


Maoshan

[brucelee2]

I was looking through Liang Shou Yu's book (at the Songs of Bagua) a while ago and it really helped open my eyes- my sifu doesn't speak much english so often he'll tell me to do something (for example, hollow the chest, round the back, lift the head...) but I won't understand why, or the importance of it. Likewise, sometimes I'll be unable to differentiate between the very important and the not-so in what he teaches. However, reading the Songs, it really helped me to understand the 'whys' of many things I was doing, and the importance of them. It's hard for me to remember specific examples now, but generally speaking it helped clarify, among other things, the importance of all the walking 'principles'/body mechanics for allowing full chi flow and accumulation.

Are you saying that in order to be good one must train at least 3 times per week and see a teacher at least once every six months? I wasn't clear on that-

gary

[virus fist]

Maoshan,

Your patronizing behavior just amuses me,that's all.

I have nothing against you,in fact,I like you,man.

Perhaps,this might not fit into your romantic idea of fighting,but you should not wish to meet with me.

First,it is not necesary,there is nothing to prove.

Second,hand to hand combat is my last line of defense,not the first.

Third,you are a perfect target,I know who you are and where to find you,but me,I am invisible,to you.

Fourth,I will not be alone, you will not see me coming or what hit you ,until it is too late,I am a virus,remember? and that is the way I fight.

Make friends not enemies.


VS

[Losttrak]

Do you guys know each other or something?

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

[maoshan]

Bruce:

The Question was posed toward those who claim a teacher that they see only at seminars.
A minimum of 3x a week over a considerable amount of time is the proper method to gain some proficiency. One day or week every 6 monmths is impossible. what you get is a demonstration of what you could be if you had regular contact with a teacher. The only one who would benefit from such an arrangment would be someone with a solid foundation. and in that style not any other such as an external ( tiger, Mantis etc..).


VF:

You don't want Beef? fine with me.
But let's get something straight.
Weather your invisible or not makes no difference
you could never sneak up on me, and i don't play push with strangers.

Weather your alone or not makes no difference as i'm sure you know i'm not alone either.

As far as not knowing what hit me. Unless you shoot me, "Ain't no such animal"

Now, as you said, let's be friends and kick some knowledge. Bickering on the net is dead.
Can you tell me what you know about the Songs
or responed to the questions I asked?

Maoshan

[razakdigital]

Hey I see that Maoshan has provided us with another great topic of discussion. Well I can't much at this topic at the moment because I'm going to be in Beijing, China on Jul 3. I will do extensive study on Pa Kua Chang and Hsing-I at the captial of Pa Kua city (just a phrase). So when I get back in two weeks I'm going to light this board up like a Christmas tree on fire...I will provide as much information as possible to help all us in our studying of pa kua chang. I will update www.blacktaoist.com (http://www.blacktaoist.com) if a lot of information and pictures. I'm going to look into China's opinion of our so called Pa Kua Chang masters in the USA and I'm going to talk about my favorite topic...using Pa Kua Chang in fighting...

OOOOOOOOOOOO man I'm going to bring the pain!!!!!!!!

I'd like to say whut up to Kevin aka the big toad!!!! I will see you guys later!!!!

[virus fist]

maoshan

This is not going to help much,the only reference that I have about the songs,is the book that you mentioned before.

The song and verses are a great tool for research and guidance about the principles of the art.

Personally,I don't use them regularly in my training,we have different formulas and methods,to remember the fundamentals.

In my view,as your training advances ,you will get a deeper and better understanding as you read them.

About how often should you see your teacher?.

There are many variables on this one,but I will say whatever it takes for you to learn, or depends what do you want to learn and how much you are willing to invest.

Teacher and students come in as many variations as there are ways to cook chicken.Everybody learns differently.
You can correct a student every day and still he doesn't get it,yet you have another one that you see twice a month and he makes progress.
It this because of lack of instruction or that the student didn't practice enough or pay attention.

Anyway,you are a teacher,you know what I mean.

Enough.

VF

[razakdigital]

What up Maoshan...this is Razak da mind boxer. Myself and the rest of the Brothers of Wudang have landed safely in Beijing, China and everything is ok!!! email me at razakdigital@hotmail.com so I can chat with you!!!

Peace

[TheBigToad]

Razak! Have fun in China can't wait for you to get back and watch you light this place up!

Maoshan: Thank you for the book recommend, its on order as we speak.

Virus:

>>Fourth, I will not be alone, you will not see me coming or what hit you, until it is too late, I am a virus, remember? And that is the way I fight.<<

Can this get any more cowardly? Fight like a virus? Try lowly worm or parasite.

I know what happens to people who come after me like that. They end up tied to a heavy stone in some lonely backwoods Idaho Lake.

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[virus fist]

Toad,

Your romanticism could be detrimental to your health.

I will answer this just once.

You can call me any name you want,but parasites,worms and virus are masters at fighting for survival,and they can teach you a few lessons,(even if you are a Toad).

I fight only if my life is in danger,and I play to win.I don't fight for sports or to prove something to anybody or my ego.

Now,probably you are to young,watch to many kung fu movies or are an aspiring poet,just be realistic,come down from the mountain and look at the reality of conflict.

You can open your mouth and live in fantasy land all you want,no matter who you are or pretend to be,if sombody wants your butt,real bad,they will get it and they are not going to let you know it before they do it.end of story.

keep on dreaming baby,and just in case stay out of trouble,there are a LOT of viruses,worms and parasites out there ready to test you,(actually they are fighting with you every day)hope you make it to old age.

VF

[TheBigToad]

Well, bring it little man, I make myself very, very easy to find.

To state a really CHEESY movie quote "You maybe the cancer but I'm the cure."

I am the Big Toad and I eat worms and parasites for breakfast.

Nothing overly romantic about having to mop up leftovers..other then it gets me a little aroused.

If your willing to bring your ugly sickness just to see what happens then thats cool. I'm an e-mail and trip to Boise away.

Other then that I'm NOT going to "type battle" some Internet geek making threats upon me, maoshan or anybody else..and with that.. My on-line correspondence with you is over in all its
toad-tality....

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[Scarletmantis]

Whoa! Things have heated up a bit since I've been away! How's the Toad? Now that I'm back, this silly bickering can end. Whew!

Feel free to E-mail me all your Ba Gua questions, as I am the TRUE encyclopedia (I can even spell it!). :D Anyway, "You Kungfu no good!".

Sorry, had to get that out of my system, glad to be back, now on with the show!

[razakdigital]

Kevin,

How are you? I'm posting from Beijing, China ... a Pakua fighters dream !!!! Let me tell you dont' waste your time on cats that talk...let me tell you in the short time I've been here with there Brothers of Wudang I can tell you cats in the U.S. got nothing...so far they have proven me right so far...keep ya head up ... don't worry about jack...see ya ....

maoshan email me at razakdigital@hotmail.com

[count]

Hope the weather is fine in China and you are seeing some really good SHlT. A word of caution though. In my contacts with students and teachers in Taiwan and in China I have heard such BS that you would think there are no good teachers here in the US. At the same time displaying a limited knowledge and many misconceptions of bagua itself. There are exceptions to everything in life and I'm sure your teachers have brought you to a good source, but keep an open mind. Some of the things I have heard are negative comments about Americans who come to China for a short time to learn and go back to the US to teach after being shown bogus things. Don't forget, there are also many Chinese teachers living here in the US who teach as well as some Americans who have lived over there for 10 years or more to study. It's not all bad! What's your daily practice/training routine like? Take everything you can and bring it back here and share!˙

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

_ˇ

[wujidude]

"Toad-tality" . . . ? Aaarrgghhh.

[TheBigToad]

Hey man how is China!!!?? What does it look like taking pics right?? :) What are you learning?

Its cool I'm not sweating Jack for no one.

Let me know the minute you get back.

-Kevin

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[wujidude]

kevin . . .

>I am the big toad and this is my pond.<

Aren't frogs the ones usually associated with ponds?

No argument if you wanna stay a toad. Just trying to get the ecology right.

[Turiyan]

Brilliant mao shan. Considering that the 5 elements, the chinese daoism and zen buddhism and feng shui have holes big enough to drive a buick through theory wise, and the product of "taking bits and pieces" by the chinese.

The problem with translating ideas is that there is always an assumption that the original translation is best. In this case, both are bad.

Look at feng shui. It almost goes as far as saying exactly what I am saying. You compensate for "missing trigrams/hexagrams" (and elements), by moving things around.

Enhanced qualitys (which are the product of artificiality) are likewise "reduced".

Its like comparing animal insulin to synthetic insulin. Animal is "stronger" but your bodys anti-bodys attack more readily than synthetic.

Likewise, there are less adverse reactions to it.

A slice of wheat bread has more "steroids" than beef liver, which is always a "toxic" organ. Because the grains are teeming with *sisterols among other things.

So synthetic vitamin e is less "strong" than natural vitamin e (its also less expensive) but it doesnt contain the collateral ehnhancements like steroids/erogenogenics.

There is no METAL ELMENT. PERIOD! Everyone knows that. Metal is a COMPOUND. And if you wanted to get technical, there are 6 elements. Fire, water, earth, air, ether, plasma. If metal was an element. There would be 7 elements.

Poof, there goes a fake chinese cosmology. People want to put things in a circular pattern and have the energy going clockwise just to symbolize "good"!?

Circles dont matter. Triangles do. 13 is the most potent number. But its "unlucky" to the chinese. Addition is based on CONCURRANCE. Numerology is based on anti or reverse concurrance. 1+3=4 / 1,0,3=13. 1 and 0 are the binary set. And the binary tree forms are perfect pyramid, hence the 3.

Chinese taoism is about DUALITY. Which is wrong. Its about PLURALISM, which is anti-singular. The chinese cosmology is based on singularity. Because in order to have rotation, you must have an axial point (tai chi).

Cosmology is about creating an artifical POINT OF VIEW. The issues are primarily sensory. When you rotate that point of view so that you look at it sideways, its a line. A line has two points.

Imagine a reel of film. One where you have frames you can hold up to the light and see pictures. The POV is the reel of film rotated sideways. The relative "clock position" that runs horizontally to the rotation point is your "stream of reality".

Imagine a movie where the movie is shot so that you can only see each consecutive frame looking down through a line of frames with the reel rotated sideways.

I'm the only one that can convincingly debunk plancks theorem and the phi ratio as complete BS. Buts its a theory no one appreciates because it is DE-STRUCTIVE (which is actual CONSTRUCTIVE) to the idea of false cosmology which is based on creation/creators/time/singularity.

There is no pure taoism, there is no pure duality. Rather its the division of a NULL into 2 dichotomys which further form 4 parts from the two vectors you just formed.

Its elementary. The chinese philosophy is mystical and mysterious if your non-intellectual. Fine.

There was nothing pure or scientific in the first place to be making accusations about "infection" through modification. The japanese, chinese, koreans and russians always have and may always modify what they want to fit their "points of view".

A "true" point is formed with two lines cross. Those two lines are extensions of points which were further extended on equal distances at right angles. So a coordinate point must have four points around it, with lines crossing, drawn from the corners of the square on opposite sides.

What you have is a square with an x in the middle which represents the ether of consciousness (the point formed). Which radiates to the four corners of the square, with each representing one of the four elements of material existence.

There's five elements right there. No circle. All 4 elements without form (NULL) become the essence of ether-void. Nothing.

Which is the opposite of consciousness, unconsciousness (what some call common sense). Without those basic boundary conditions, the individual point of consciousness does not exist, and there can be no creativity or innovation or dynamic action possible.

Thus is the process of obtaining immortality of essence, not form. Form is transient and fleeting like the clouds in the sky.

Without structure, there is nothing. You cant create nothing from nothing. Therefore creation and a creator cannot exist. Because no points exist, no uni(one)versal space exists, and therefore no singularity can exist.

Shock horror! Homely truth is unpalatable to quote mark twain. Them's the breaks.

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

Chinese military forum:
http://www.anyboard.net/plaboard/

[TheBigToad]

1.(Daoist Cosmology)

Wuji (point of all, where all returns)
|
Yin Yang
/
Taiji
|
10,000 things(5 elements or better yet 5 Qualities)

1. Metal: Transformation matter on which to create with, since you can't create something out of nothing.

2. Fire: Heat, light, upward expanding energy.

3. Earth: Growth and equal balance, the laws of nature.
4. Water: Absorbing, liquids, and life giving (tranfering nuterians)

5. Wood: Growth, birth, expansion and new life.
|
Wu Li: Physics of creation, patterns of organic energies.
|
Man: Living, intellectual beings


2. (Science/Physics)

Unknown/Void
/
Anti Matter Matter

Big bang

/
Light/Fusion
|
Substance(Atoms and molecules,building blocks)
|
The Known Universe
|
All living things.


Doesn't seem all to diffrent, mind switching to de-cafe and talk about things now?

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[blacktaoist]

What’s up everybody? I hope everyone is training hard. I have on thing to say and that's to Count...My friend and Pa Kua brother - there are many teachers of pa kua or so called masters of Pa Kua in the US. God has blessed me, to met, practice and learn from real masters. There may be a few good Pa Kua masters in the US but that is all "few". In China, I have met many in Beijing. As I stated earlier God has bless me with meeting them and them showing me true Pa Kua. True Pa Kua is skills not just talking. A lot of Pa Kua practitioners in Beijing, that I have met and I HAVE ON VIDEO TAPE because I'M TAPING THIS SH*T for my own library as a black man going to China. All I have to say to you Count and by no means no disrespect intended, the masters that I met have said the so called masters in the US aren't SH*T!!! The masters here say all the so-called masters in the US is talk talk talk. As far as the I-Ching goes - from what masters are telling me (And my Chinese is all right and what I don't understand I have an interpreter) the I-Ching has no relation to Pa Kua Chang. What does have relation to Pa Kua Chang is the Yin and Yang theory and the Eight directions. I'm learning this from a 5th lineage holder of Yin Fu Pa Kua Chang and other Pa Kua practionters that are helping me achieve my goals in mastering this art. To me, China's Pa Kua is number ONE. If you don't believe me take a trip to Beijing. When you get here go to HEAVEN PARK also known as TEMPLE OF HEAVEN. There is NO TALKING ABOUT I-CHING just fighting techniques of the art of Pa Kua. It is like a village of Pa Kua and I do mean a village of Pa Kua practionters. I promise you I will send you a tape to put your mind to ease. I thought the first tape I sent you would have been sufficient. Now looking at that tape and looking how Pa Kua Chang practitioners move in America move - Need I say more????????? I like you Count because no matter you are my brother in the martial arts but some people need to learn how to think for themselves...(Not that I'm referring to you). Bottom line, I'm not a master, I'm just like you a practitioners in the art of Pa Kua Chang and my goal is to learn from the best masters in this art. So if I have to bust my a** to work two jobs to achieve my goals to get what I want then I feel I'm following the TAO. The TAO has blessed me to met REAL Pa Kua masters that are not just talking about talking doing "this" or "that" but can actually put it on you UNREHEARSED. There is a lot of fakes in America and even in China. Like my masters always said - you can't fool YOURSELF. You have to know what you are looking at. The sorry thing about some people that study Pa Kua even though they know what they are looking at but they still follow that person even if they know that person is WACK. I feel that Pa Kua trains a person to be a leader not a follower to me this is the essence of change.

Friday, July 6, 2001 - Beijing, China

PS - Maoshan - call me at the hotel because something is wrong with your phone...Remember that Beijing is ahead 12 hours your time.

Peace - Always keeping the Tao real...

[virus fist]

Big Toad

Just for the record,

You intruded in my conversation with Maoshan,by calling me names,after we were cool.

Threats?,Battle?,either you are a very sensitive animal or my writing style is not clear, anyway, you missed the whole point of my post,somehow, I am not surprised.

Whatever.

So,I hope that since you are a Big Toad you have some room in your pea-size anphibian brain,to record this.

I have no interest in you or your stories.

go your own way.

VF

[This message was edited by virus fist on 07-05-01 at 11:30 PM.]

[TheBigToad]

>>>There is no METAL ELMENT. PERIOD! Everyone knows that. Metal is a COMPOUND. And if you wanted to get technical, there are 6 elements. Fire, water, earth, air, ether, plasma. If metal was an element. There would be 7 elements.<<<<


Something you said at the beginning about translations I will go back to a few times here, should you decide to call everybody else wrong at least be right your self. Your translation of "elements" is wrong. It does not mean Metal as an element pre-say, but the "Having the quality" of metal, meaning it can be reformed and built with, transformed a building block with which to create, this could mean atoms and molecules have a metal element(quality).

>>Poof, there goes a fake Chinese cosmology. People want to put things in a circular pattern and have the energy going clockwise just to symbolize "good"! <<<


Again a translation issue. There is no "Good." This is a common and ignorant misconception because we in the West use Positive to describe an action of good intent. The Chinese do not. Positive was one the duality of negative, which also has no emotional quality connected to the Chinese word.


>>Circles dont matter. Triangles do. 13 is the most potent number. But its "unlucky" to the Chinese. Addition is based on CONCURRENCE. Numerology is based on anti or reverse concurrence 1+3=4 / 1,0,3=13. 1 and 0 are the binary set. And the binary tree forms are perfect pyramid, hence the 3.
<<<


What do you think the structural integrity of a triangle is?? A circle. If you draw a triangle and count up and connect all the areas where the triangle would encounter force and represent where the counter force will come from it will make a circle in the middle. the reverse is true of a circle in which 13 triangles in a circular pattern will support the circle.

>>Chinese Taoism is about DUALITY. Which is wrong? Its about PLURALISM, which is anti-singular. The Chinese cosmology is based on singularity. Because in order to have rotation, you must have an axial point (tai chi).<<

Umm yeah to would be the Taiji, two dualities with function and move as a singularity.


>>Cosmology is about creating an artificial POINT OF VIEW.<<

Then as I showed Daoist Cosmology side by side to Physics Cosmology and since it looked oh near exact..is science worng/fake as well?

>>I'm the only one that can convincingly debunk plancks theorem and the phi ratio as complete BS.<<


I don't know, can you?

>>Its elementary. The Chinese philosophy is mystical and mysterious if your nonintellectual. Fine. <<


No, its only as mysterious as you choose to keep it. Seems pretty sound once you get the translations correct.


>>>with each representing one of the four elements of material existence.<<


Doesn't work that way. The Chinese had a 5th quality so that nothing could have be in a complete state of balance, yet because all things (even chaos) seeks order of some kind that all things would continue to try for and establish balance even though they can never do it. Thus they would never become stagnant should there goals of balance be meet. The old saying "Things in motion tend to stay in motion." Movement is life, our bodies, its cellular levels, the blood circulation, breathing always constant should it stop we die, should movement stagnate all things die.
Now you could say Wuji/Void idea, Daoist Great Point of stillness, however again your translation would be wrong since the idea it the very moment it moves it fills its empty space appearing not to have moved and yet always moving.

Thats all I have time for today, I'll pick this up latter.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[count]

Thanks for the post! Check your e-mail if you can. If you can't from where you are, let me know here and I will get it to you.

The rest of you, good discussion, carry on. ;)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)