Chinese Short Swords?

[Royal Dragon]

I have a book called 13 Emi Short sword, which shows some neat forms with short swords. They kind of look like Roman centurian swords.


I have looked at both Wing Lam's site, and Martial arts mart, but I don't see any short swords.

Are short swords common in Chinese arts? If so, where do I find authentic designs, and specs, if not a source to buy?

[lunghushan]

I have looked at both Wing Lam's site, and Martial arts mart, but I don't see any short swords.

http://www.wle.com/products/w450.html

[YMC]

They kind of look like Roman centurian swords..........Are short swords common in Chinese arts?


If you are talking about what are essesentially shorter versions of the 27-32 inch straight swords, then I'd say these were the most common type of jian made in the mid to late Qing era. Surviving antiques suggests that the longer jian that we are used to were definitely in the minority (in fact, in today's collector's market here in the US, competition for a long straight sword is very robust because of their relative rarity).

I know one or two dealers what sells modern made short jian, but these are made the traditional way, forged with hardened high carbon steel edge plates, and are pretty expensive (maybe 600.00 and more).

You'd have better luck at gun shows, a lot of decorative antique short jian were made for the tourist trade back in the day and you can usually snatch them up for about 100.00. These would be on par with the stuff that we can buy on Martialartsmart or WLE.

[Ben Gash]

They're available here http://www.wushudirect.com/acatalog/Special_Chinese_Swords.html
Alternatively, you could get yourself a kid's Jian

[Royal Dragon]

lunghushan,
I saw those, but what I am looking for looks like a short Roman Centurian sword. I think they called them Galdio's. I want the Chinese version of said sword.

[Royal Dragon]

Ben,
Yes, they doo seem to be on that link, but are out of stock :(

[Ben Gash]

They're out of stock of the long ones, they should have the short ones.

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2010
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=85
Found these.
TWS

[BlueTravesty]

This "Hero" replica sword looks about the closest to a Gladius that I've ever seen. http://www.wle.com/products/MC-3028.html but of course, with a longer blade.

[GeneChing]

In terms of the antique market, there are definitely more short swords than what we tend to think of as regular length swords available. There are many theories on this. One is that long swords break and are then cut down to short swords. Another is that short swords were easier to conceal, not only as a street weapon, but also from the ravages of the Cultural Revolution. Another is that a shorter blade is easier and cheaper to make. But even back when I used to do some antique dealing (about a decade ago, before there were so many modern makers and internet dealers) I'd always see more short jian than yard long ones. In fact, two of my finer remaining pieces are short shuang jian.

The question of interest for me is more the converse. Apart from that old book RD mentioned, 13 Emei Short Sword, and a few odd little references, we see so little material on short swords. You'd think with the proliferation of them as antiques, you'd see much more of them.

It's akin to the dao issue. We always see contemporary dao blade design (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Broadswords.html) in practice, but seldom the historical examples. We ran an article in our Jan Feb 2005 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=567) that touched on this: An Introduction to Chinese Single-Edged Hilt Weapons (Dao) and Their Use in the Ming and Qing Dynasties By Phillip M. W. Tom with Scott M. Rodell

[lunghushan]

Somebody from China was showing me old pictures of his teacher and their students from around 1980. He asked me to pick him out of the picture.

This guy is around 5'5" tall, so I assumed that he would be one of the shorter ones in the picture. I couldn't find him. I assumed (wrongly) that he was one of the medium height people that was a little heavier.

Turns out he was the 2nd tallest person in the picture, in the very back row!!! His master, all the old teachers were around 5 feet tall! (or shorter).

Is there any chance that those 'short' jians are really what most people fought with, and that the 'long' jians are really the oddities?

[GeneChing]

The problem with the average height theory, lunghushan, is that these short swords are more like hobbit swords. If you're 5 feet, you'd still use a sword around 2 feet in length and most of these short swords are more like a foot and a half. But it's true that long swords, at least ones for people that stand 6 feet in height, are an oddity. There's the two-handed swords, but of course, that's a horse of a different color.

[lunghushan]

The problem with the average height theory, lunghushan, is that these short swords are more like hobbit swords. If you're 5 feet, you'd still use a sword around 2 feet in length and most of these short swords are more like a foot and a half. But it's true that long swords, at least ones for people that stand 6 feet in height, are an oddity. There's the two-handed swords, but of course, that's a horse of a different color.

Supposedly the Mongolians were (and still are) shorter than the Han. (Don't think this is the reason, though).

In Western swordfighting a lot of time you'll use a long sword + a dagger. Maybe it's something like that?

BTW the Chinese are getting bigger every year like most other people.

[David Jamieson]

I would imagine that the gladius served as a model sword for a great deal of peoples across the continent who came into contact with any of the legions who carried them.

probably one of the most effective and best sword designs ever in my opinion. simple, elegant and deadly. The techniques that were used with it were very simple as well. A really excellent weapon all in all.

[GeneChing]

When you consider things like the gladius (Roman short sword) one of the reasons it was so short was that metallurgy wasn't quite advanced enough back then to produce long blades. You can look at sword development from a technological point of view, and you'll see that as the technology gets better, sword blades get longer. The problem with a long blade is that it has to be reasonably slender or it'll weigh a ton. For it to be slender, you need to be able to make steel that's strong yet flexible. With a shorter blade, it can be thicker. Of course, there's an additional factor of the application. For example, naval swords are usually short (think of the pirate cutlass) because you just don't have the space to swing a long blade around.

But still, it doesn't solve the riddle of short Chinese straight swords. The Chinese seldom fought with a long and a short weapon. More typically, you'd see two equal length
"in case" weapons, like double broadswords (http://www.martialartsmart.net/45-67cs30.html), double straight swords (http://www.martialartsmart.net/45x37cs30.html), or the classic, double butterfly knives (http://www.martialartsmart.net/452067.html) (which you seldom see alone in practice). You do see sword and shield occasionally, but something like a long sword and a parrying dagger ala 'florentine' fencing is pretty rare in CMA.

As for the Mongols, their warriors were known for their cavalry skills. Cavalry generally don't use straight swords. They use curved swords. In fact, some attribute the curved Mongol sword as the progenitor of the dao, the scimitar and the saber. You could draw a better line between those and the butterfly knives than the short Chinese straight swords.

[lunghushan]

Hmmm ... hugely prolific secret race of Chinese hobbits vs. everybody cutting down their swords to hide vs. secret school of mini sword and mini dao... ??? Quite a mystery.

You're probably right, Gene, the most rational explanation probably is the concealed weapon thing.

[GeneChing]

We don't really see many 'mini-dao', only short jian. I suppose you could consider a nandao or a butterfly knive a mini-dao, but I think they're rather different. Dao are curved, generally speaking.

[lunghushan]

Oh, okay. I guess when you said contemporary blade design I misread that for meaning smaller rather than a different design. I actually ordered that sword issue you mentioned but they sent me Jan-Feb 2006 instead of 2005. :( Of course 2006 was pretty good so I didn't send it back.

[GeneChing]

That error should be rectified.

[lunghushan]

That error should be rectified.

Yeah, I have to let them know. They sent me a wrong DVD in my last order too, 2 of the same DVD instead of volume 1 and volume 2. I need to call them, it's just a hassle. :) I would get mad except that I make mistakes too. :)

[GeneChing]

Our shipping department is usually more on top of things. Definitely bring the error to their attention and get it rectified ASAP. And thanks for your understanding of their error.

[lunghushan]

Our shipping department is usually more on top of things. Definitely bring the error to their attention and get it rectified ASAP. And thanks for your understanding of their error.

They're usually very good. These were the first 2 orders I ever had trouble with (I can't remember how long I've been ordering from them), they've always been the best.

[SimonM]

I recently got to see a seven-kingdoms period jian. Dimensions were very simmilar to those of a gladius. I would love to find a modern replica. It was about a fourteen inch blade with a single handed grip cast from bronze.

The shorter size had to do with the material qualities of the Bronze I believe. At least I've never seen a longsword dating from prior to the Han dynasty.

Now there was one around 16-18 inches long on display in Beijing, it was a 2000 year old sword with minimal decay. A vulcanization process had kept the blade from corroding much. It still even had an edge. that was a thing of beauty. If any of my pictures worked I'll post them when they are developed but I was working with a poor camera in a low-light environment and one does not use a flash when photographing antiques in a museum... even if others are.

I... know... that there was a guy in the Sword special issue who made them but I don't know where and I lost my copy when I moved to China.

Gene?

PS: When is the next sword special issue coming out? i may have some stuff to contribute to it. :P

[GeneChing]

The seven kingdoms period is usually known as the Warring states period (11 century BCE to 711 BCE) so of course, the swords were short then. All the swords worldwide were short then. It was all about the metallurgy. You can't really make a bronze sword that's very long because it's not that flexible a metal so it would snap, or be way to freaking heavy to use. Note that the gladius reigned in the centuries around the birth of Christ.

But as for the next sword special, good question. I've not had any submissions in that department for a while. The 2005 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=567) did well, I'm happy to report, so we'll probably do another, but we'd need more serious freelance researchers in the field.

[SimonM]

Hint taken I'll get to work on that article. :p

Now can anyone recall the name and location of the guy in China who was forging traditionally constructed Bronze swords mentioned in the 2005 article? I'd like to check him out sometime.