The State of Wing Chun

[The Xia]

No art seems to have more fueds and bickering then Wing Chun. The video of Emin Boztepe and William Cheung epitomizes this state of things. The purpose of this thread is to post the history of how Wing Chun reached this state.

[Matrix]

Sorry Xia,
I don't think we need to rehash this event. I think this would be a dreadful waste of time to go over in painful detail what has proven to be a continuing blight on our art. I would recommend that we consider it water under the bridge and simply move on.

From my personal experience, I can say that working with others outside my own lineage has had an extremely positive effect on my training. We just need to let go of the concept that one lineage or another has some kind of lock on "the truth". Then, we can can combine our efforts to improve Wing Chun as a martial art through mutual respect and understanding. Otherwise, we will be doomed to petty in-fighting forever.

[Vajramusti]

No art seems to have more fueds and bickering then Wing Chun. The video of Emin Boztepe and William Cheung epitomizes this state of things. The purpose of this thread is to post the history of how Wing Chun reached this state.
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FWIW/IMO etc.

1. Feuds are not unknown in the martial arts, but you may have a distorted impression if it is based on what you read in internet forums and even mags.

2. The William Cheung/Emin Boztepe affair- now quite old does not have to much
with how most lineages do wing chun. And i dont know of any wing chun "history" that makes much of this video.


3. "this state"? See answer number #1.

Most competent wing chun folks that I know pay little attention to net chit chat.

joy chaudhuri

[The Xia]

I didn't intend for this thread to be about the Boztepe/Cheung video. I merely mentioned it as an example of tensions materializing. This thread is intended to be a place for people to talk about the history of these disputes, and what exactly they are about.

Joy,
I know fueds exist in all martial arts circles (in fact, there are long traditions of it), but there seems to be more in Wing Chun then other Chinese styles. Then again, you are correct that I'm getting this vibe from magazines and net talk. Still, there has to be something to it. It may be because Wing Chun is more popular then other Gung Fu styles. Still, I'd like to understand how all this developed.
Xia

[leejunfan]

Hung Ga has tons of fueds.... but we're not Hung Ga people so we don't hang out on Hung Ga forums... hence we don't hear about the fueds.

Aikido has tons of fueds.... but we're not Aikido people so we don't hang out on Aikido forums... hence we don't hear about the fueds.

Repeat the above sentances and insert style name ;)

But seriously, every system has their high and low times of rest and unrest. Best thing we can do is just lead by example and don't take part in the silly **** matches of the immature.

[Vajramusti]

I know fueds exist in all martial arts circles (in fact, there are long traditions of it), but there seems to be more in Wing Chun then other Chinese styles. Then again, you are correct that I'm getting this vibe from magazines and net talk. Still, there has to be something to it. It may be because Wing Chun is more popular then other Gung Fu styles. Still, I'd like to understand how all this developed
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Xia-
I dont know how you measure these feuds and put them in a continuum.The taichi/taiji world is hardly more communitarian...neither is choy li fut...neither is southern mantis etc.
The very unfortunate (from my own POV) popularity of wing chun may account as you say for some of it. The very popularity of wing chun in a market environment
possibly has stimulated aggressive marketing that shows up in places where people flock on the internet.
While Ip Man's wing chun led the interest in wing chun in the west-there are other versions of wing chun and new synthetic or real ones have emerged and may continue to emerge.
Re: Ip man's wing chun legacy---teachers teach at their own level of competence
and students learn at their own levels of dedication and practice. These diversities
are then passed on to the next group of students=further widening the gaps of competence, communication and understanding.

Traditionally- one had to search for a good teacher in the martial arts, and in music-violin, sitar or piano and dance-ballet, bharat natyam etc and it helped to have a first class teacher in math, physics and philosophy. Still true for serious students- for the naive- caveat emptor unfortunately still applies.
Marketing forces have ruined many crafts and fields of knowledge and competence.
I for one dont bemoan the apparent lack of community in net communications or even in other communications on the art. A good stoic distancing from confusion is usually healthy for the mind! And- gives more time for serious students of wing chun.


joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

No art seems to have more fueds and bickering then Wing Chun. The video of Emin Boztepe and William Cheung epitomizes this state of things. The purpose of this thread is to post the history of how Wing Chun reached this state.


You're living way in the past.

The Cheung Boztepe example actually has nothing to do with the current state of things. It was twenty years ago.

Emin apologized to William Cheung and the WC community in general in a magazine article several years ago. He said his then seniors put him up to it, and that he had been used by them.

The follow up incident in NY ten years later (no, you're not going to find out about it from me) also ended up similarly, with Andrew Draheim more or less apologising for his part in the affair, recently on this forum as it happens, claiming much the same for his motivations as Emin.

Most of this crap is totally irrelevant today. The biggest threat to WC's credibility is the rise of MMA and grappling arts, and the inability of WC and other supposed "deadly" arts to succeed against those arts in the popular arena. There are worthy exceptions, but on the whole the art seems destined for irrelevance unless it can find some new source of credibility and broad appeal.

The most recent bickering in WC circles seems to be about history, rather than effectiveness or competence. Futility abounds.

On the whole I thing there is less bickering in WC than there used to be. The net is a terrible source of inflamatory rumours, and magazines have a vested interest in fuelling emotion amongst the gullible (are you standing near a mirror?)

The Cheung/Boztepe stuff keeps coming up because the clueless refuse to let it die a deserved death (are you standing near a mirror?)

It developed because egos kept writing cheques their skills couldn't cash. There are much better ways to waste your time than chronicling MA idiocy through the generations.

[The Xia]

I only mentioned the Cheung/Boztepe thing as an example of things getting ugly. I know it was a long time ago. Frankly, niether the magazines or internet chat have succeeded in "fuelling emotion" in me. I just wish to understand how things developed. Many say that thinking about such things is useless. However, understanding the negatives of the past aids in the making of a better future.

[Mr Punch]

On winning the Most Pointless Thread of the Year Award 2006, and it's still only August! Phenomenal!

:D

Leejunfan and Anerlich have it.

If you want a feud go and check out 'The Truth about Chan Tai Sham' on the main forum... :rolleyes:

[The Xia]

On winning the Most Pointless Thread of the Year Award 2006, and it's still only August! Phenomenal!

:D

I'm honored, but this has to be rigged. How did I beat the women threads? :eek: :p

[Matrix]

I just wish to understand how things developed. Many say that thinking about such things is useless. However, understanding the negatives of the past aids in the making of a better future.Xia,
I think it's enough that we identify them as negative, and move on from there. A lot of the real reasons will only be known by those directly involved, but I would speculate that human nature works in similar ways whether we're talking martial arts or not. Factors that I see involved in this type of negativity are politics, ego, power and money.

Peace,

[Ultimatewingchun]

For my money, the only significant post on this thread contained these comments from Anerlich:

"Most of this crap is totally irrelevant today. The biggest threat to WC's credibility is the rise of MMA and grappling arts, and the inability of WC and other supposed "deadly" arts to succeed against those arts in the popular arena. There are worthy exceptions, but on the whole the art seems destined for irrelevance unless it can find some new source of credibility and broad appeal."


***OTHER THAN THAT...This is a totally pointless thread at best/a subtle attempt to troll at worst.

Take your pick.:rolleyes:


But all that said about the intention of the thread - Andrew Nerlich really puts his finger on the important issues confronting the whole art as a whole (personality and lineage issues aside):

Where will the art be in ten years without competing (and doing it successfully)...in some way that is measurable against grapplers and MMA "styles"???

Remember the whole wing chun craze came off the back of Bruce Lee's movies and the exploits of himself, William Cheung, and Wong Shun Leung (for the most part) - on the streets and rooftops of Hong Kong...(and later in Bruce's life in California where he went behind closed doors with some of the best martial artists of his day and impressed a lot of people with what was no longer pure wing chun, but a MMA of the day known as Jeet Kune Do)...

But be that as it may...wing chun was still getting some credit....AS A FIGHTING ART...since it played a big role as the nucleus of JKD.

Andrew puts his finger on it quite cearly: this "fighting art" has to prove itself in the 21ft century or face IRRELEVANCE.

[Vajramusti]

Another not so fruitful thread...in part because some folks talk about wing chun
rather than talk wing chun. About the future of wing chun and its credibility- I for one dont worry about it. Sounds like lots of folks want to be and are in mma-
though they call it wing chun. A shrinking wing chun is not a bad idea.
Pointless to debate and argue the same sets of personal preferences.

joy chaudhuri

[Fajing]

I'm not so sure why anyone would care about the state(popularity) of wing chun or any MA for that matter. Unless you're making your income by teaching it, why do you care if anyone likes it? I ONLY care if it works for me and me alone. I certainly don't care if it's popular amongst MMA officionados. Whether or not Chuck Liddel can make WC work for him, has no impact on ME whatsoever. I am not an MMA competitor. Who gives a d@mn if WC is popular or not? You should only care what works for you in a physical confrontation. If everyone on the planet says that TKD is the best and most effective art ever, but yet it still doesn't work for me in real life combat, I am surely not going to practice it. Once again I ONLY care if it works for ME. This should be everyone's mentality regarding the style/art they train. Doesn't that make the most sense? Who gives a f*** if anyone thinks it's worthy or not? PEACEEE

[sihing]

For my money, the only significant post on this thread contained these comments from Anerlich:

"Most of this crap is totally irrelevant today. The biggest threat to WC's credibility is the rise of MMA and grappling arts, and the inability of WC and other supposed "deadly" arts to succeed against those arts in the popular arena. There are worthy exceptions, but on the whole the art seems destined for irrelevance unless it can find some new source of credibility and broad appeal."


***OTHER THAN THAT...This is a totally pointless thread at best/a subtle attempt to troll at worst.

Take your pick.:rolleyes:


But all that said about the intention of the thread - Andrew Nerlich really puts his finger on the important issues confronting the whole art as a whole (personality and lineage issues aside):

Where will the art be in ten years without competing (and doing it successfully)...in some way that is measurable against grapplers and MMA "styles"???

Remember the whole wing chun craze came off the back of Bruce Lee's movies and the exploits of himself, William Cheung, and Wong Shun Leung (for the most part) - on the streets and rooftops of Hong Kong...(and later in Bruce's life in California where he went behind closed doors with some of the best martial artists of his day and impressed a lot of people with what was no longer pure wing chun, but a MMA of the day known as Jeet Kune Do)...

But be that as it may...wing chun was still getting some credit....AS A FIGHTING ART...since it played a big role as the nucleus of JKD.

Andrew puts his finger on it quite cearly: this "fighting art" has to prove itself in the 21ft century or face IRRELEVANCE.

Concerning Bruce and the comment "Pure Wing Chun but a MMA of the day..." read this interesting article by Hawkin's Cheung regarding the above. It doesn't prove or disprove the comment but it is interesting, here's the link, http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=686&mforum=wongshunleung .

Yes, putting your stuff up against other fighters is a good thing I agree, but concerning the state of "Wing Chun", isn't this a individual perpective? When I read the question, I sort of related it too my car. Has my Acura Integra 1992 performed well? The answer is yes it has, for me. Has there ever been a problem with the model that other owners have encountered? Yes, I'm sure there has. My point is, what you the individual believes is what is important. Wing Chun is just a tool or guide to allow you to learn a process. Once the process is learned it is then forgotten, and you are able to use what you want from it naturally, in your own way. What others think about the process has nothing to do with the state of the art IMO, as to me it is a impossibile to put a state on something as intangible as Wing Chun.

James

[anerlich]

Many say that thinking about such things is useless. However, understanding the negatives of the past aids in the making of a better future.

How does deep analysis and chronicling of foolish, immature and egotistical behavior by people who should know better make for a better future? All that's needed here is to say "these people all acted like egotistical morons, don't go there."

On one level I agree it doesn't matter what the great unwashed think about WC. If it's good for you, do it.

But on another level, public profile is important. To take up what Victor said, the WC base today is as wide as it is because of the Bruce Lee related explosion of MA popularity in the 70's. I think it's safe to say at least half the people now doing WC might be doing something else were it not for the public profile. If that slips, so does the customer base, and the potential technical innovators and gifted teachers may end up in some other discipline. Per Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is crap, but if the 100% is smaller so too will be the other 10%.

Then again, as Joy said, maybe a contraction and concentration might not be a bad thing.