Info on pai lum?

[Reverend Tap]

I've been spending some time recently trying to find information on pai lum, and coming up with basically nothing beyond a few vague maxims and 3,000 different histories. I've heard in a couple of places that it's worth looking into, but as yet I haven't found so much as a general description of stylistic features. I know I'm not bad at searching for info, but I don't necessarily know the best places to look for this sort of thing. There's a pai lum school in my hometown that I plan on visiting, but given my relative lack of experience I wouldn't necessarily know what I'm looking at/for without background research.

[Becca]

... That's because it's a closed-door system, for the most part. There are a few videos out ther released by Glen Wilson, but that is just a drop in the bucket. Strictly beginner stuff. Research animal styles if you want to have a frame of reference for what you see. Also a good idea to be familier with tie chi, as some of Dr. Pai's grandsons specialize in that area of the system.

Where's your home town?

[Reverend Tap]

Ah, I see. I will do that, thank you.

My hometown is Fort Collins.

[PlumDragon]

Reverend Tap,

Are you presently in Ft Collins? I spent about year studying pai lum under sifu Dill there in Ft Collins during my undergraduate work at CSU.

On the Style: Pai Lum is a fairly unique stlye in its own right but its roots are in Chinese Kempo, with the real "essence" of Pai Lum starting with the Chinese Soft Fist form. It has many stances and techniques which are remniscent of much of the Northern Long Fist type of arts, but some of the numerous techniques one learns give a feel of fighting in at a bit closer of a range than what long fist generally prefers. They do a good deal of conditioning, including iron palm/body, chi kung and also work on the wooden dummy. In my opinion, there are too many forms, but many of the initial forms you will learn are part of what Id say is somewhat of a weedout process--It will take you probably close to a year to get to the good formwork, which is Chinese Soft Fist and the like.

On the School: If you train with Sifu Dill or Galiano (sp?), I can guarantee you will get plenty out of the classes. They are always physically demanding, are designed and run quite well, and you will never be with a lack of things to work on outside of class. An excellent teacher, one of the most optimistic people Ive had the pleasure to work with. If you decide to visit this school, please shoot me a PM before you go, Id like to send you with my regards if it is not any trouble...

[Reverend Tap]

Yes, I am presently in Ft Collins and yes, it is the school taught by sifu Dill that I'm looking at. I'm not terribly familiar with the styles/forms you're referencing, but the school itself sounds like it could be a really good match.

[Becca]

Sifu Dill's school. Very good school! Very good set of teachers there! :)

Chinese soft fist is actually the third beginner form. First is 3 short forms of the tiger, second is chinese stance. You probably won't recognize any of the styleistic forms, but much of the extra carricular stuff, like prance of the panther (also known as Pouning black leopard) can be found in certain other styles.

[PlumDragon]

Becca, when did you study under Sifu Dill?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I've been spending some time recently trying to find information on pai lum, and coming up with basically nothing beyond a few vague maxims and 3,000 different histories. I've heard in a couple of places that it's worth looking into, but as yet I haven't found so much as a general description of stylistic features. I know I'm not bad at searching for info, but I don't necessarily know the best places to look for this sort of thing. There's a pai lum school in my hometown that I plan on visiting, but given my relative lack of experience I wouldn't necessarily know what I'm looking at/for without background research.

Just to add to what some of the other posters have said, Pai Lum is a unique style that incorporates various chinese and japanese arts. Pretty much all of Pai's senior students were accomplished martial artists so they all brought their own flavor to their own schools. In regards to forms, I have seen few schools who have the same ciruculum of forms. Supposedly Pai taught forms differently to each student. Forms passed down to me from my teacher include 12 Animals, Dancing Dragon, Pai Chou, Iron Butterfly, Five Animals, and Snake Tension. Some of these forms other Pai Lum practioners I have spoken with or worked out with knew, others they had never heard of and vice versa on my part. As someone else mentioned, it is a very disorganized system, however, it can be very good with the right teacher.

[Becca]

Becca, when did you study under Sifu Dill?
Never directly. Only at seminars, summer camp, ect. My Sigung, and first teacher, is Sifu Manning and my primary Sifus are Post and Reichart out of the Thornton kwoon. Awsome artist, though! :O


Iron_Eagle_76- Don't know that I'd call it disorganized; more that it is sprawling and disjointed. I've heard Sifu tell prospective students that it takes something like 50 years to learn all of the system without specializing in one discipline.

[Sneaky Pete]

Never directly. Only at seminars, summer camp, ect. My Sigung, and first teacher, is Sifu Manning and my primary Sifus are Post and Reichart out of the Thornton kwoon. Awsome artist, though! :O


Iron_Eagle_76- Don't know that I'd call it disorganized; more that it is sprawling and disjointed. I've heard Sifu tell prospective students that it takes something like 50 years to learn all of the system without specializing in one discipline.

Becca, is Sifu Manning still at the Thornton kwoon? Just curious, some years ago I studied under him there for 5 years. Sifus Post and Reichart were both there, but were not Sifus yet.

[Becca]

Becca, is Sifu Manning still at the Thornton kwoon? Just curious, some years ago I studied under him there for 5 years. Sifus Post and Reichart were both there, but were not Sifus yet.
Nope, he still owns it, but he doesn't teach much any more. Sifu Post is head instructor. I actually have'nt seen Sifu R. in a while, eihter.

[Sneaky Pete]

Nope, he still owns it, but he doesn't teach much any more. Sifu Post is head instructor. I actually have'nt seen Sifu R. in a while, eihter.

Interesting, thanks for the update. I sorely miss my time there. Kim shattered my hand in a sparring accident, and after two surgeries, two plates, eight screws, and bond grafting, and years of physical therapy, the surgeon said it just could not withstand blunt trauma anymore, and you know how physical the style is, and I knew the day would come again when I would miss a block and take a kick to the hand again. Also, everyone in Advanced Class was apprehensive about working out with me, because they were all there when it happened, and I was admittedly apprehensive too. I'm sure you know that practicing at that level, there is no room for apprehension - every fiber has to be ready and engaged. So then Sifu M. and me thought that maybe I could go back to Intermediate Class to get my workouts in, because they wouldn't know me there. Did that for awhile and it just wasn't working out well, so I left I think about three or so years ago. Anyway, that's way too much about me - best of everything to you and everyone else at the kwoon. It was fun running into you on the forum!

[Becca]

Aha! Know who you are now. Nice to here from you, too! We are having St. Jude's in a few weeks; why don't you drop by for old times' sake? No contact at all, just a very cool rare form and lots of fun!

And if you see Kim, you can asker about the prank she pulled on the kids' class involving a black eye, red eye ball, and sneezing. I'd tell it, be she does it much better.:D

[Dragonzbane76]

A lot of politics in the system at the moment. Which I'm sure your not wanting to get into, but overall a good system. Funny someone mentioned Chinese soft fist as one of the beginner forms. Perfect example of how the system is taught differently from school to school. I was taught that as a higher lvl form. I've been to other schools and the forms we teach as low lvl are taught at higher lvl.

[Becca]

'Couse there's alot of politics in the system; its a CMA system. Wouldn't be natural for gwa-lei to agree about anything CMA related.:D

[Black Jack II]

Didn't Dillman study with Pai???

btw, this is him doing a break demo right? Is it just me or do the blocks look already cut?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOFqB5-cfB8

[Becca]

If you say so. Looks more like they were several blocks joined to make 1 long block. Every ice breaking demo I've ever seen had that though. 1'X1'X 4' blocks of ice aren't usually made that way, but joined together.

Yes, it broke on the joint. Not the same as being "cut" though.

As for Dillman? Not sure. Sounds familiar, but I just can't say. I know Cynthia Rothrock, did...

[Dragonzbane76]

Name sounds familiar to me "Dillman" but not sure. Pai had a lot of people around him. Rothrock, Decker, Thorner, St. Charles, Ed Parker, Etc....List goes on.


Wouldn't be natural for gwa-lei to agree about anything CMA related.

So true. So sad.

[sunfist]

its a CMA system.


Thats actually debateable. Just sayin.

[Becca]

Thats actually debateable. Just sayin.
It is a system that came down from an american born chinese who learned to fight from his chinese born grand father. It is CMA. Some would debate if it was traditional or "pure", but not that it was chinese...:rolleyes:

[Black Jack II]

Sorry,

I was in reference to the kook George Dillman. I read somewhere he studied with Pai for a time.

What I don't get is didn't his Chinese father send him to Okinawa to learn kempo at the White Lotus Temple. Why would his dad send him to study in Okinawa in a totally different culture artform when he himself has gung fu knowledge?

Plus didn't someone once bring up the question that there was no such place as the White Lotus Temple on the islands?

[Mas Judt]

I met a Pai Lum guy once - his theory was a lot of Ed Parkers material came from Pai as there were so many similarities.

Actually, I've met quite a few Pai Lummers over the year, all of them were hard training, good folks. The system seemed pretty basic, with a good amount of attention paid to it's usage.

Wether it is 'authentic' CMA or not is really irrelevant, as it is obviously an American combinasi and becoming it's own thing here in the states.

Then there are it's offshhots like the 'chi lin' cited elsewhere in this forum...

[Becca]

Sorry,

I was in reference to the kook George Dillman. I read somewhere he studied with Pai for a time.

What I don't get is didn't his Chinese father send him to Okinawa to learn kempo at the White Lotus Temple. Why would his dad send him to study in Okinawa in a totally different culture artform when he himself has gung fu knowledge?

Plus didn't someone once bring up the question that there was no such place as the White Lotus Temple on the islands?
Depends on who you ask. The variation I was taught was that is grandfather sent him to the Northern Okinawan Monistary because he (grandfather) had family there.

I don't know. To be honest, I don't realy care where he studied. I love the style just as it is and the whys and wheres of it's lineage are just trivia; something we are tested on that makes no real impact on the style as it is currently practiced. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

Plus didn't someone once bring up the question that there was no such place as the White Lotus Temple on the islands?

Big myth there about the Lotus Temple. There was never historically a Temple there. Just a myth.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Chi lin is an offshoot of Pai Lum. There is connections with individuals, Dennis Decker was Chi Lin, maybe that is the connection a lot of people make?, but it was never originated within Pai Lum.

There is another system that came out that was connected to Pai Lum called Kajukempo that is probably an offshoot of Pai Lum, but that's debatable as well. They have a lot of forms that are very very similar. But this is irrelevant as well, doesn't matter the origins just how you train and what you do with the knowledge.

[PaiLumDreamer]

There is another system that came out that was connected to Pai Lum called Kajukempo that is probably an offshoot of Pai Lum, but that's debatable as well. They have a lot of forms that are very very similar. But this is irrelevant as well, doesn't matter the origins just how you train and what you do with the knowledge.

What forms are similar, if you know off the top of your head?

[Dragonzbane76]

Um off the top of my head the Hung 1 2 3 etc. sets. Couple others that I think have different names from system to system but are alike. 4 corners form (pretty sure it has a different name in Kajukempo) I'm wanting to say Prancing panther, but unsure on the exact name they have for it. I know it has okinawan origins. I'd have to look up some of the others.

[sunfist]

Actually, I've met quite a few Pai Lummers over the year, all of them were hard training, good folks. The system seemed pretty basic, with a good amount of attention paid to it's usage.

Wether it is 'authentic' CMA or not is really irrelevant, as it is obviously an American combinasi and becoming it's own thing here in the states.

Since pai lum, unlike shaolin do, tend to keep to themselves and not claim mastery in other peoples stuff, i agree that its generally not that important.

However, this is a thread asking about the specifics of the style, and there is a pretty massive difference between a compilation of several southern internal arts, and an eclectic style founded around goju in 1970s hawaii. The latter may be just as good, or indeed better, but there is no disputing it is a whole different animal (excuse the pun).

[Becca]

Um off the top of my head the Hung 1 2 3 etc. sets. Couple others that I think have different names from system to system but are alike. 4 corners form (pretty sure it has a different name in Kajukempo) I'm wanting to say Prancing panther, but unsure on the exact name they have for it. I know it has okinawan origins. I'd have to look up some of the others.

I've seen that form; I agree it looks very, very similar to Prancing Panther. I found it on YouTube a while back; I'll see if I can find it again. I've also seen one of thier forms that looks similar to Flowing Motion, though I only have the first bit of that form so can't tell for certain.

[Becca]

Since pai lum, unlike shaolin do, tend to keep to themselves and not claim mastery in other peoples stuff, i agree that its generally not that important.

However, this is a thread asking about the specifics of the style, and there is a pretty massive difference between a compilation of several southern internal arts, and an eclectic style founded around goju in 1970s hawaii. The latter may be just as good, or indeed better, but there is no disputing it is a whole different animal (excuse the pun).
That's mid-1950s. By the seveties Dr. Pai was already in California. And where it came from may matter to some, but it shouldn't. That's like refusing to read a book you didn't want to read in the first place because of the author's location and insperation when he/she wrote it.

And yes, the metafore does too apply; a complete system of martial arts is very much a kinesthetic book of technique.

[Dragonzbane76]

I've also seen one of thier forms that looks similar to Flowing Motion, though I only have the first bit of that form so can't tell for certain.

Actually that form, which we call flowing 1 is almost identical to the Hung Ga form called Lau Gar. Pai or whom ever made 5 of those flowing sets. Each was almost a representation of a system. Flowing 2 if you look in Hsing I you'll see it there. Pai took a lot of stuff from other systems, including mainly forms.

[Becca]

This lau gar demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQr1SGVE8oE&mode=related&search=) does indead look very similar to the parts of Flowing Motion I know. some minor diferences in transition, hand position, ect... But basically the same form with a different flavor.

[Dragonzbane76]

I learned Lau gar when I was in Hung ga back in the day. The patterns of the form are the same as flowing 1. many of the hand positions are different but it holds to the same lines. It was funny when I did take hung ga I knew flowing at the time and they said it was a *******ization of the form which is probably true, but who really cares in my opinion. I've seen many forms that are similar and alike in many systems. Pai did take a great deal from other systems and incorporate it into Pai Lum. I'm sure along the way many other systems have done so as well.

[Becca]

Dr. Pai never pretended he didn't. As the temple founded by manchu-era pirates doesn't exist, I've often wondered if that story is a way of owning up to the mix of styles put in a candy coating that would sell well to dumb Gua Lie.