Fitness and Wing Chun

[S.Teebas]

What do you do in addition to your wing chun training?

Weights, cardio...how much and what kind of exercises do you do?

Were do you see the benifits in your wing chun...in an art that 'doesnt RELY on brute strength'?

[AmanuJRY]

General fitness workout (no set program at this time)

Snowboarding, ultimate (frisbee sport), Escrima, hiking, rock climbing and a few other activities.:D

Basically, I'm not training for anything specific, so just general fitness. My work gives me plenty of physical labor (lifting, pulling, pushing, etc.), so I don't over do it.

[anerlich]

I do a couple of days cardio (running, Tabata intervals with bodyweight exercises, jump rope) a week, and one day of strength training (kettlebells and bodyweight mostly, with occasional bar complexes). Plenty of mobility drills, and stretching.

At the BJJ school I attend they go hard, and at 51 I need the supplementary training to avoid injuries and see out the full session of rolling without gassing. Actually those sessions are the toughest days of the week for me. I usually get out of bed the next morning feeling like I've been run over by a truck.

As for an "art that doesn't rely on brute strength", it not "an art that weak, unfit people can beat anyone with." I'd rather have fitness and not need it, than need it and not have it.

According to the CDC via an article I read, you're more than a thousand times more likely to die of lifestyle related heart disease than you are from a violent assault. So if your martial art training is about "survival", but does nothing for your fitness levels, your priorities are seriously out of whack.

[S.Teebas]

As for an "art that doesn't rely on brute strength", it not "an art that weak, unfit people can beat anyone with." I'd rather have fitness and not need it, than need it and not have it.


Ok, that seems like a good way to look at it.

Does anyone here do weights with wing chun...im interested to see how that works for you. and what kind of frequency you do the weights, and how it fits in with wing chun...the relaxing etc, as weights seems to be all about putting the muscle under stress and tension, which is basically the opposite??

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey S.Teebas,
I think doing weights with wing chun is fine. It just depends on how you do them.
If you look more at how a power lifter works, with bursts of explosive power, then that type of training goes hand in hand with wing chun.
There's a guy named Ross Enamait who's got a great site
www.rossboxing.com
On there, he's got an article where he did an experiment of gaining weight (muscle) and seeing how it affected his agility, speed and over all performance. It's a good read and actually his whole site is a good read.
I'll get the link to the article and post it here.

It's funny that I just saw this topic because I'm just starting to build a gym in my basement. I can't wait till it's finished.

J

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey again,
Here's the link to the article, it's actually the newest one in his article section

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/hardcore.html

The cool thing about alot of his articles is that he'll put videos along side them. I know I sound like a fan boy but he's just got some really good stuff

J

[stricker]

What do you do in addition to your wing chun training?

MMA training, weights, circuit training, some stretching/yoga/bodyflow

Weights, cardio...how much and what kind of exercises do you do?

not enough. mma training (high intensity in strict rounds of thai pad work, wrestling, bodyweight exercises, etc). now im doing 1x per week sumo deadlifting (gonna go heavy with these but just building up right now) plus various dumbell and kbell stuff, elastic band stuff. ive got a training blog on the training forum...

Were do you see the benifits in your wing chun...in an art that 'doesnt RELY on brute strength'?

BIIIG benefit. having your body primed or oiled for action by being in shape ie general athleticism. i feel like i move better with strength training and also trying to balance my body out a bit address structural issues from bad habits and training a certain way. also weight training with overhead stuff and explosively has direct wing chun application. doing lots of shoulder rehab stuff is helping me feel whats going on in my muscles better, should have real long term benefit when i concentrate on the wing chun again.

definitely i 100% recommend doing some strength training, real benefit to that. then balance it out with some circuits or cardio and add some stretching/yoga etc. thats the baseline for being healthy and athletic let alone a fighter.

if i could only pick one or two things to do i'd get a dumbell (cheap 2nd hand) and do swings. really good. then some overhead stuff and shoulder work.

[Nick Forrer]

When im on my own I have a routine that I run through

It includes

The three wing chun hand forms
Turning punches on the spot
Stepping punches x3 each step (using forward zig zag stepping and reverse angular stepping)
Kick, step and punch x 3 and turn - going back and forth (using forward adancing stance in each direction)
Sprawl
shadow pummeling
shooting
Knee on stomach variations on punch bag on floor - going side to side, switching from front, to reverse and then back again, transition to mount and back, bull fighter guard pass etc.
bridge
shrimp
stand up in base
Sun salutations and other yoga stretches


I also do a weights/bodyweight routine once a week (whole body compound exercises no rest between sets, one set each exercise to failure)

Sometimes ill do some pad work or some Jong work

And I am now doing bikram yoga once a week too

Sparring and rolling gives me an extra work out

Used to swim but dont have time now

[Kevin Bell]

Jon

I'd tread carefully with the overhead lifting and it's transference to CQB as well as being mindful of the cost to the glenohumeral joint and it's relative support structures, though i'm not ruling out OH lifting totally and am researching it in a little depth all the literature i got points in favour of horizontal pressing. I'd agree of course that OH lifting yields strength increases to the rotator cuff and deltoid in general but from what i can gauge at lock out the glenohumeral joint is at it's most abducted and externally rotated which is it's most structurally compriomised position and the risk of injury is greatly increased. Theres a ton of stuff around on the NSCA and Elite to research this stuff should you like. It's great advising people to do S&C but be mindful that without decent GPP, guidence from experienced coaches, knowledge of structuring and organising correct training programmes etc enthusiasm alone for the inexperienced lifter can lead to injury.

Going back to the original question i guess it comes down to training specifity. Identifying your goals. Are you training for the reality of today's urban environment of worst case scenario (multiple armed assailants) situational awareness, pre-emption, starting and explosive strength are your key attributes, are you training to be good in a two hour Chi Sau endurance lesson? Different mindsets require different means and methods.

[Kevin Bell]

Nick

You checked out any of Martin Rooneys work? He's the S&C coach for the Renzo Gracie team, just something as a BJJ-er that might be of interest to you.

[stricker]

kev,

your absolutely right gotta be carefull id never really thought people would take too much of what i say seriously as advice like a professional or coach would give as im not in that position, also especially as its on the internet. well my advice is to seriously check out weights and other gpp as it rules :) gonna leave it at that no specifics to get me in trouble hahaha

anyway moving swiftly on to the rest of your post kev, youve mentioned this to me before and ive looked but only found this article :
http://elitefts.com/documents/overhead_olympic_weight_lifts.htm
which makes a fair criticism of overhead oly stuff, but it doesnt really go into the glenohueral joint probs in detail, can you point me at the article on that i aint been able to find it... i looked on the nsca website found a list of articles that looked really good but were asking for $$$, i'll have to dig about abit deeper see what i can find, my research-fu is dragging

also one way round some of the criticisms of that article may be to use dumbells or kbell for push press, clean&jerk, snatch etc. much easier to learn, less forcing the shuolders into a groove and possibly less overall weight + more stabiliser work

another thing do you think the type of lift makes a big difference on the stress? eg the jerk (explosive, possible carry over to punching) a slow lift like an arnold press (or my fave the bottoms up kbell press) and 3 holding stuff overhead then moving eg waiters walk, lunges with dumbells overhead etc. what did you make of the steve cotter stuff?? id be interested if any of the studies reference volume intensity %rm etc and injury rates as i would bet thats related.

i definitely dont have a final verdict, everyday is an experiment. for me personally as you know i have ****ed shoulders and slow Oh presses feel fine but pressups with my hands low eg tricep pressups hurt. that may be more due to weakness i need to sort out...

another thing is ive been advised against doing overhead pressing with a barbell as shoulder flexibility may differ between sides and they get forced into a certain groove.

weve talked about this a few times, hopefully andrewS will add to the discussion, i know you disagree on this topic which IMO makes it a v.interesting topic worthy of discussion (not trolling for argument i have TONS of respect for both of you as you know)

nick, at mma if numbers are odd someone takes a round out at a time working the floor bag, thats never an easy round. a good one is picking the bag up for throws, work the legs and back a bit if youve got one heavy enough, proper knackering :)

[Kevin Bell]

Jon my friend i'd never accuse you of trolling :)

If you have the time to trawl back through the elite Q&A archive you should find a fair bit of material there. With regard to the NSCA save your sponds bro.

[[also one way round some of the criticisms of that article may be to use dumbells or kbell for push press, clean&jerk, snatch etc. much easier to learn, less forcing the shuolders into a groove and possibly less overall weight + more stabiliser work]]

Again this goes back to the time involved in receiving correct instruction of execution of technique, i really believe Joe Average embarking on a gym crusade with the attitude of i think i'll try a clean and jerk is a sure fire way to injury. Also a point to mention is that correct training is emphasising movement patterns over body part training so the Arnold Press IMO would at best be an auxillary/assistance type exercise not that i'd even use it to be honest.

[[another thing do you think the type of lift makes a big difference on the stress? eg the jerk (explosive, possible carry over to punching) a slow lift like an arnold press (or my fave the bottoms up kbell press) and 3 holding stuff overhead then moving eg waiters walk, lunges with dumbells overhead etc. what did you make of the steve cotter stuff?? id be interested if any of the studies reference volume intensity %rm etc and injury rates as i would bet thats related.]]

Theres no doubt that explosive lifting has transference but what you got to look at here is the wide spectrum of different interpretations of WC using different engines etc so for someone like me who employs hitting at an extreme close quarter range of within one step of the opponent as opposed to a perimeter puncher striking at hyperextension localising the power to the shoulder, we got to ask ourselves would the workouts be the same? Is the focus of the individual the same - go back to someone who trains for urban combatives of a 3 second fight or someone who trains to better his 2/3 hour Chi Sau session.

Going back to the Clean and it's modified variations i'm a fan of the lift, but i suppose it's a weigh up of cost/benefit trade off. Personally (though i'm not training it at the moment) i'm a fan of DE method and i'm convinced some of the work realised in lifting this way has masses of carry over to explosiveness. It's a complex subject thats for sure there's not only overcoming lifts without a mechanical pre-stretch to consider (deadlifts, squats off pins, olympic pulls) but also reactive plyometric drills initiated with a mechanical pre-stretch (squats, jump squats, depth jumps and so forth) as well as adaption of the organism, how well the individual plans his programme etc

I'm still making some notes and internalising the Steve Cotter stuff so i'll get back to you on that point Jon. The lunges with DB OH is something i've been thinking of toying around with, i've just been given some 25k and 34k DB's to play with so you never know, could be i enter a thread in the future a convicted kettlebell overhead lifting freak..

Oh and be careful on the sumo deadlift, i tested my 1RM for the first time in ages the other week and managed to lift a pathetically weak 190kgs conventional DL and the DOMS was a b i t c h

[anerlich]

I've looked at some of the materials mentioned here.

RossTraining (formerly RossBoxing) - his purchaseable stuff is excellent value for money, plus he backs it up with tons of free info on his site. The man walks his talk too.

Martin Rooney - I bought his "Team Renzo Gracie Workout Book" - i found it a bit annoying, as the exercises are not particularly well described and it seems like he expects you to buy his videos to get that (and you'd need to buy several). Also, his programs are designed for elite MMA athletes, not your regular joe who works a job and has a family, and assume access to state of the art training facilities - most commercial gyms couldn't provide some of the equipment his guys use, though you could probably substitute easily enough. That said, his methods have delivered great results to some of the best modern fighters and that's hard to argue with. I was just annoyed that the book seemed a bit too much like a wedge strategy to make you buy more stuff. I'll probably still end up getting some of his vids one day all the same.

[Kevin Bell]

Anerlich,

As far as i know you dont have to bulk buy Rooneys dvd's, i checked the other day and im pretty sure you can get them individually. The training for warriors dvd is quality. I got the book as well found it pretty usefull and the guys pretty approacable and forthcoming on the elite Q&A.

State of the art gym facility? Mines a spit, sawdust and cobweb place. No mobile phones no lycra or spandex and plenty of thrash metal :)

[AmanuJRY]

State of the art gym facility? Mines a spit, sawdust and cobweb place. No mobile phones no lycra or spandex and plenty of thrash metal :)


My kind of gym!:D :cool:

[AmanuJRY]

There's a guy named Ross Enamait who's got a great site
www.rossboxing.com


Cool link, I like his 'home gym'... 'Nothing beats finishing with a keg!' :D

[stricker]

Kev,

sure mate just making sure :) i'll go back through the archives etc...

as for learning them correctly. one thing about what ive been recommended on using the db jerk etc is it only needs 10-20% bw. too heavy and it slows down but not too light. that may be a factor that keeps it safe compared to being a serious oly lifter. two different worlds using a light oly db variation to train attributes vs oly lifting proper.

as i understand it the cotter thing is mainly using a weight over head (kb is slightly more offcenter) and moving the body to induce stress on the stabilisers of the shoulder and torso. again slightly different to going heavy with overhead lifts to get a high 1rm etc.

ultimately the answer is probably that OH lifting should be the icing on the cake (makes sense as were talking fighting crossover too) gotta have the basics (squat, dead)

your right it is very complex issue when you get into it. i'm always very progressive with any training, start small build up.

sumos are great :) i figure learning them first is better as theres less stress on the back than conventional, so if i **** up and let technique slip theres less chance of injury. again personally i think i have some imbalance issues that need to be addressed which the sumo will do...

ps definitely if i started going OH with 34kg dbells id pick up an injury no doubt ;) %ages dont make me feel soooo puny.

[Kevin Bell]

Jon

One other name to stick into the mix who has a wealth of knowledge on OH lifting and their orthapedic drawbacks should you desire to research further is Buddy Morris. Also, if you cant find what you're looking for on Elite may pay you try the Q&A.

I'd disagree that OH lifts are the icing on the cake as virtually all you're fighting, at least in terms of stand up, is performed on a horizontal like plane. As a comprimise partial ROM shoulder abduction is an often overlooked alternative to OH lifting. Going back to Buddy Morris if i'm correct i'm led to believe he designed nearly 40 different variations of lateral raising for deltoid/upper back in place of OH pressing to yield adaptive responses.

What may be an idea is for me to possibly construct and implement an OH db template for myself later on in the year when i free some time. This would perhaps allow me to monitor training effects versus what i've found sucess with in the past - cleans/DE work - and draw a more accurate picture for myself pro's and cons.

Anyway first rounds on you in a couple of weeks.. mines a mineral water

[stricker]

Kev,

i got a bit of digging about to do. i only just found what you were talking about the q&a section and looks like its gonna take a while to dig around. i did find some stuff on buddy morris and yup hes anti-oly lifts but pro-DE and plyos in the horizontal plane. im definitely on the look out for detail of the exact problem and what causes it.

lI'm looking forward to the coming weekend big time :)

cheers, jon.

Also i thought the rooney dvd was really good. a lot of info in there to take in. its also hard to watch for long times as it makes you feel lazy hahaha. i keep meaning to do the warm up straight through one of these days looks fun, have to sort out the practicalities tho. a lot more geared to fighters than most s&c programs etc. i aint seen the book.

[anerlich]

Kevin, stricker,

OK OK OK - I'm going to buy the Martin Rooney DVD. You guys convinced me to giv him another chance :cool:

[Mr Punch]

Does anyone here do weights with wing chun...im interested to see how that works for you. and what kind of frequency you do the weights, and how it fits in with wing chun...the relaxing etc, as weights seems to be all about putting the muscle under stress and tension, which is basically the opposite??To get back to the OP's question a bit more directly...

Yes, I do.

I'm not a big lifter yet, I've just started and the reason I started was for rehab for a lower back injury. My blog's on the health forum. I'm still only lifting light but have started to go up to bodyweight on some lifts.

I do the weights between 2 and 5 times a week (it doesn't take long). I would do it more if I had more time.

A few points.

1) Everything I do physically is easier!

I was no uncoordinated couch potato before: I was the athletics champion in school and played in rugby and crickets teams from about 8 to about 14/15, was quite good at basketball... and since then have got black belts in aikido and kendo and blah blah blah :) but now everything I do physically is easier!

2) Specifically, in terms of WC, I can feel the connectedness of my body much better. I don't know if this would have been the same had I done weights as long as I've done WC (about 9-10 years), or if it's just because I'd learnt how to move my body and work with my weak points before.

3) I can of course relax much more in wing chun now because (I guess) my body is used to moving heavy objects, therefore when heavy pressure comes I am more used to it and it takes less muscular effort to avoid it, deflect it, hit through it etc.

The idea that people who do weights always force technique to me makes no sense. Sure some people probably do, but if you have two people of the same height and equivalent experience, but one lifts weights and is say 5 kilos of muscle heavier, that person is going to find it much easier to not force his way through, because his muscles can take more strain, and move easier.

Of course if I've just (over)trained and I'm stiff my WC will suffer, but that's more down to good warm-ups and -downs than anything.

All in all, I don't know if I'm glad that I had a firm base in WC before I started lifting or if I should've started lifting much earlier... I tend to think that since my body has benefitted so much in just a couple of months lifting would've have been a good idea from the start.

BTW, I also do some cardio stuff... running mostly 5km, elliptical trainers, bodyweight exercises, bagwork, MMA when I have time, shoot + sprawl drills, manji stepping (from daito ryu and other koryu principles), some chi kung, and (far too) occasional yoga.

Hope that helps.

[AmanuJRY]

...laughing at this...(I saw the info-mercial on TV, after the news, seriously tears started and everything)...

Yoga Booty Ballet (http://www.beachbody.com/jump.jsp?itemID=79&itemType=CATEGORY&path=1,2,21)

[stricker]

anerlich,

no pressure from me but when i saw it i did think it was really good.

i went over my notes on the dvd and theres not THAT much stuff thats out of the ordinary but you might need to split between a poncy gym with cable crossovers and stuff and maybe a back yard style get some big tyres and sleds going. of course they have ridiculous computer powered treadmills and stuff but one of the big things i think about that dvd is how creative they are, most of it can be done on the cheap :)

its more the thought process behind what hes come up with and how ma specific it is thats good compared to other workout stuff.

mr punch,

awesome post i couldnt agree more, also about when you said on your blog on the other page how you wish youd done weights earlier. its a whole world of feeling good, better technique etc etc...

amanuJru,

yup that just looks wack. i like this yoga clip :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSvupyYuFPk

:D:D:D

[AmanuJRY]

amanuJRY,

yup that just looks wack. i like this yoga clip :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSvupyYuFPk

:D:D:D:eek:

You know the girls at the local yoga shop don't look like that...right?

(unless you live in Hollywood):D

[stricker]

well the fact that the only yoga class that doesnt clash with my existing timetable is a university class doesnt hurt ;)

of course not to disrespect yoga which is a very good system. just not enough hours in the day... also a yoga teacher told me that a lot of the yoga positions we're familiar with nowadays were only created something like 50-100 years ago and stolen from western gymnastics and wrestling...

[AmanuJRY]

well the fact that the only yoga class that doesnt clash with my existing timetable is a university class doesnt hurt ;)

of course not to disrespect yoga which is a very good system. just not enough hours in the day... also a yoga teacher told me that a lot of the yoga positions we're familiar with nowadays were only created something like 50-100 years ago and stolen from western gymnastics and wrestling...

Interesting...not impossible as 'hatha' yoga didn't really gain any popularity until starting about 100 yrs ago, but I wonder which positions he's referring to? Obviously things like the lotus and some standing positions came from yoga (as we see it in statuary and illustration in ancient Indian art) and the concepts (breathing, kundalini, etc.) are written about in the Reg Veda (1200+ B.C.). But I don't know when the recording of the Asanas began.

Besides, even if western 'stretching' techniques were adapted, they were effective and still are (hence modern popularity of things like yoga and pilates), and it just adds to prove how technology is spread and evolves...

[Mr Punch]

Kevin and Stricker...

OK, I was going to look into some of the things you were saying about OHs and their probs, but I just haven't found anything/looked in the right places...

Kevin maybe, could you summarize what you're talking about re the probs of OH lifting, templates, and er, whatever... please? :)

[toddwc]

What do you do in addition to your wing chun training?

Weights, cardio...how much and what kind of exercises do you do?

Were do you see the benifits in your wing chun...in an art that 'doesnt RELY on brute strength'?




There is definentely strong benifits in incorporating weight training, cardio etc.. into your training wether your just a casual practioner or active one. My instructor always encourages the use of weight training and our classes are nothing but hardcore cardiovascular workouts. The wing chun system doesnt rely on brute strenght but in combat any scenarios can always occur that may require different attributes to be put to the test. :)

And for the types of training for weight training i follow a standard 4day on 1 day off
Cardio workout is primarily all done at the wing chun gym i train at which is very intense cardio workout nothing but hard work and crazy sweat.

[Kevin Bell]

Mr P

Try this:
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/overhead_olympic_weight_lifts.htm

As to suggesting templates this is something i avoid doing as i've no idea as to your current level of preparedness. At the end of the day it's a question of specifity. Running 5 miles a day, endless DB curls going for the burn to get a good pump just aint gonna cut it. Level some questions to the guys on elite or t-nation i'm sure they'd be more than happy to help

[Mr Punch]

Cheers for the link Kevin. That looks like a good site.

I wasn't asking you to make a template for me, I was thinking maybe you'd have some good points as to what to avoid putting in an overhead programme to focus on combat applicability and shoulder health.

[Kevin Bell]

Mr P,

Some points to consider:

Train movements over body parts
Whole Body sessions versus Spilt Training Sessions
Variety
Tempo

When drawing up your annual plan focus and identify your goals, periodise your workout, and draw up a pool of exercises based on pushing, pulling, upper/lower body, and whole body.

A good starting point would be to focus on GPP. Ive just spent the last 9 months doing this with my lower body working the death outta my legs/back. Now my 1-3 RM for DL's are 200 kg's, Squat around 150 and power cleans around 110kg, nothing spectacular but better than what it was. So as from around early october i'm starting a new template, which ive worked out with my buddy who's a professional S&C coach as well as consulting with some experienced S&C coaches in the states, which will switch the focus over to be more VT specific for me and start what i consider a real integration point for me and my needs.

[stricker]

armanujry,

sorry didnt follow up, been busy... the guy was referring to a lot of the asanas and sequences, im no expert, but he mentioned wrestling as a source too which struck a chord for me with bridges and hindu/divebomber pressups etc. Next time i see him i'll try to get a reference on it.

yo kev,

i wasnt being a lazy ****er when i said i hadnt found the article on shoulder problems with OH/oly lifts!!! I did find that one, i was trying to find detail on the orthopeadic risks at an anatomical level, and it's a big ol site that one...

Mr p,

if like me your a beginner at this weights malarkey pavel t's books or t-nation stuff tends to be a bit easier reading than a lot of the material. i also got the "Insider's Tell-All Handbook on Weight-training Technique" book which goes into good form etc to perform most exercises. I dont know how highly the experts (kev ?) rate it but i found it good useful info.

oh anerlich,

how'd you get on with the dvd?

[Kevin Bell]

Jon,

Expert? Not even close mate. With regard to literature whilst Supertraining and The Science and Practice of Strength training are the "guvnors" of S&C literature they're a **** hard read and best picked up and studied when you want to focus on a particular point of interest IMO.. In terms of the orthapedic angle your looking for try the rehabilitation section of the Q&A

For me Elitefts as well as the relative sites of the Q&A board members have provided much of my learning.