Internal Iron Palm

[Sil Lum Palm]

I was wondering how many of you out there practice the internal Iron Palm methods? Our school teaches it to a few students , usually as they move up from Assistant Instructor to Instructor, or if they show extreme dedication and interest. Our style of Iron Palm is based on the Five Element Fist and Foot(work) of TCM ( also found in Xing Yi ), and deals with training in the five elements. I was told that some Ba Gua schools taught is as well as Xing Yi Quan , any comments?

( our school did an article on the Iron Palm for the August Issue of IKF)

[JerryLove]

We start internal Iron Palm specifically at around 1 year.

[ELFdisciple]

I have been taking the Internal Iron Palm course now for a couple of months. From what I understand, its suppose to be the same thing that Ku Yu Cheong practiced, he is on our honor wall.

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[woliveri]

What's the difference between external and internal Iron Palm training?

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[JerryLove]

External involves hitting things. Internal does not.

[woliveri]

ok, can you expand on this? How can Iron palm be developed without external conditioning?

Thanks

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[JerryLove]

Qigong, similar to the way Iron Shirt works but with different postures.

At least in systems I have studied....

I am also aware that some systems cultivate this through Yi (Mind intent). I cannot figure out any good reason that should work, but have seen some examples that it probibly does.

[Sam Wiley]

Where the intent goes, the qi follows. So if you do specific qigongs to put the intent into your palms, the qi goes there as well. That's pretty much the theory about internal iron palm.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Sil Lum Palm]

ok this is going to take a minute...
1) Iron palm is developed internally by several different methods depending on the school/style you are learning it in. Our system does it by use of training the hands in the five elements, along with proper stance training and herbal mixtures. I can't draw it out in detail because I don't have permission. I also don't know a lot about it because I have only been told about the first deng training, which is earth. This method uses your chi from the inside out. The hands are heated in a mixture of herbs and sand on the first level which causes the marrow to swell and retract, making the bones stronger. Like I said if you want to know a little more our school did an article on it. You can also check our webpage www.dokungfu.com (http://www.dokungfu.com)

Yes Ku Yu Cheong is honored in our school as well, however it does appear that he was a Northern Stylist
so I figured his influence must have came from the ELF side instead of the Southern Five Animals/Five Families Shao Lin. They don't tell us too much until your accepted for the training, then they let you in little by little.

[ELFdisciple]

BTW, the internal iron palm I am learning does involve hitting things, we just do it completely differently. In the external system, it looks alot most other breaks you see in other systems. With the internal break, it looks fake. Its not, but it looks that way. The arm is fully extended, the bricks are usually about waist level or so, you do not come down hard and fast with a hit. The hand comes down on the brick almost like its slow-motion, the palm will make contact with the brick, but only a tap. The person focuses their chi into the block(s) and they break one of them. To show skill at this art, you must break one brick in a stack of five, usually brick number 3 or 4, while all of them are stacked on a silk pillow. I just started this art, I can't break a toothpick this way yet!

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[Sil Lum Palm]

Well, I was approved today to begin the Iron Palm in December my GrandMaster Kash. I can't wait. ELF , keep me posted on your training its cool to hear about someone else practicing the same system.

[ELFdisciple]

Cool. First thing I suggest, obey the rules to the letter! Otherwise you could really be in trouble here. Second thing, get ready for you're body to go through some changes, its weird. Things will happen that you don't expect, some things you may overlook or not pay much attention to. I dismissed alot of things that happened to me as being coincidence, but after you put it all together it becomes hard evidence. Other things will be more real, you're chi will flow when you don't expect it to and you may hurt/damage people/things. Be careful. Most of all, remember, its not easy. Good luck!

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[Sil Lum Palm]

Thanks alot. I heard that a guy once did the Iron Palm training, while having sex and eating chocolates and sweets regularly and he became insane. I don't know how true this is but I really believe it. Also, I know that the few guys doing Iron Palm in our school have to avoid small animals and babies , they also have to show extreme care not to hurt anyone in class.

[EARTH DRAGON]

i just wanted to know who told you about the sex, chocolate guy going in insane? thats the funniest thing ive heard about iron palm, and why does one have to avoid small animals and children? i have to laugh out loud at that , no disrespect intended but why? ive been doing iron palm for 4 years from brian grey's top student and if anything the palm becomes more sensitive to heat/cold light/dark and such so I think some one is pulling you chain.... please respond :D

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[IronFist]

Earth Dragon,

In one of Brian Grey's books he talks about some practicioners having to avoid touching small babies. You're in his lineage and you haven't heard this?

Maybe i have my facts mixed up.

Iron

[Crimson Phoenix]

Hmmm...about the "not touching baby" thing...I don''t know where I read this, it might be while I was sifting through Gray's books or maybee not...
Here it is: old chinese practicionners would advocate not to touch babies while training internal iron palm...but the explanation is that it wasn't because the practicionner's palm was full of deadly qi, it was because of the herbal formulas that were used to treat the hands, that could prove harmful to a small and fragile baby with a very porous skin...
I also heard many qigong masters say that the deeper levels of internal iron palm will make a man sterile....back in the days this choice might be worth it when your life was endangered often but nowadays it isn't as justified anymore...
Just some things I heard, to add to the debate :-)

Phoenix

[Sil Lum Palm]

okay I'll try to make this short and sweet and then all you know-it-alls out there can smash me all you want and call our Internal Iron Palm fake if you wish, however please note that it will in no way make any impact on me because I can see your all trying to be objective and foolish. I see this WAY WAY to much here from those that barely have any idea what they are talking about! Its kinda funny , but its pathetic at the same time.
I am not shure why you can't touch small animals and children, I just know that I have been told you can't. I don't know much about Brian Grey, but I do know that his word is not final. You amuse me. My teacher has spent far more time than Brin Grey in the CMA and has far more VALID credintials to prove it, such as signatures from Dr. Cheong, Ark Wong-Yuey , Chao Yu Feng, President Bush, President Clinton, etc...Your opinion matters not. I posted to get responses from those practicing Iron Palm, not those learning from books or frauds! I'm trying not to be hostile here but you ofend me by your statements and I am nobody to speak for GM Kash.
The story about the guy going insane comes from a respectable student in our school that has trained in many systems. During the first six weeks of internal iron palm you must leave several things out of your daily regimen including sex, sugar, yellow vegetable and other such things. This is part of your bodies natural change, you are supplementing it with a new source of energy.
If you think someone is pulling my chain, maybe its you! I imagine I could trust my teacher that has 40+ years in the CMA before I could trust some webheads opinion! You have offended me by disrespecting my teacher and I nolonger have any need for your close minded opinions. In the future pleae get the facts before you try to use the old " he's a fake" line. That gets really old!
Will someone who's trainined with anyone that knows anything about Internal Iron Palm or GM Kash please step up to the plate and tell me if I am wrong or right here?

[Sil Lum Palm]

Oh yeah, congrats your the first toes I've stepped on since my arrival, you should be impressed with yourself. I don't get anrgy easy , but when you offend my Master, I take it to the most personal level. Just like I said in my last post, I have tried not to step on any toes, but many seem to want to put their foot out in the aisle. Please do not be so quick to down others when you yourself have no clue what your talking about! Once again I am sorry and I have tried to be a gentlemen to everyone, however it seems to get more and more impossible every day!

[Crimson Phoenix]

In Yang's book about brain/marrow washing, he says that there's a stage of training in which you must totally abstain from sex (it's not that it's harmful, it's just that it'll waste all the training you have done), and also if I remember correctly some food items are to be banned too...
So in this light, that makes sense that certain practices of internal iron palm would require such conditions too...
Sil Lum, why do you take it personal? You have to defend your sifu but don't let your ego get bruised and bee upset about criticism...I'm sure your sifu would be the first person to tell you that he doesn't care about criticism and he would let other talk **** while doing what he believes in, at least that's what all serious martial artists I know do...
As you said, it's the internet here...it's a forum, not everybody agrees with the neighbor...I'd be upset too if someone talked **** on my sifu (uuhh, chances are he's not known in the US anyway heheheheh), and I would defend him...but deep inside it's a reaction unworthy of a true martial morality...accept the challenges, but ignore the criticisms :-)
Plus we are all ignorants here...we are lil worms in the shadow of masters, yet we talk a million foldd more than they do...we're more talk than action in here, the best way to improve woulb bee to train, practice, and stay away from any gong fu forum...nobody's righ or wrong here (or maybe everybody's wrong), we just discuss, mute men trying to convince deaf men that what they say is true...
Relax, take care, cheer up!!!

Phoenix

[Sil Lum Palm]

Thank you Pheonix for your understanding, and I must agree I think yor right on just about everything you just said.

>>>>we are lil worms in the shadow of masters, yet we talk a million fold more than they do...we're more talk than action in here<<<<

Man, you couldn't have said it better. Maybe I do need ot shut up and care less what people think. I am probably one of the few here that knows anything about my Sifu so why should I care what others think anyway? Your right, we all have a little learning to do. I know as a Martial Artist I should not let temper get in my way, and I haven't until this one episode, and I apologize like any real man would do( or Woman).

Your also right on the point that my Sifu would care less what others think, I believe he would tell me the same thing. It's hard to find a "legit" school, so I see why people are so quick to claim "fakes" , but on the other hand when someone tells me my Sifu is pulling my chain, I believe that would upset anyone. Everyone must understand that I look up to my Sifu in the highest regards possible to human beings, just like I look up to my father. In a way, Sifu is my Father, a Martial Father. I don't think Sifu would " pull" anyones " chain" when it comes to something he has dedicated his entire life to, especialy a student as dedicated as me ( go ahead and laugh) :) . I hope to follow in his footsteps as well and teach our system to those that are truely willing to learn, so I guess thats why I took offense. Thanks for your understanding. ( and for the record you weren't the one that angered me, allthough I appoligize to him as well, sincerely )

[Crimson Phoenix]

thanks for everything but I don't deserve it since I'm the first one that talks too much ;-)

[virus fist]

sil lum palm

This is non of my business,but I understand where you are coming from in defending what your teacher told you and this is honorable.

However,if you allow me to sugest,

Just doing what you are told or shown is not "learning"is simply repeating,or copying,the learning process needs understanding,you need the details,the why and how and when,to be able to "learn " something.

That is why for me good instruction comes from those that explain the reasons,and details and encourage their students to make questions.(not saying that your sifu doesn't).

In a debate,saying I trust my Sifu is not enough

This way, the next time you feel like exercising your tongue,and somebody asks for clarification you have the choice to enlighten them, or ignore them.

Do you agree,that there must be a reason why not touch babies and small animals?wouldn't you like to "know".

Relax and have fun.

VF

[EARTH DRAGON]

dear sil lum palm,first off let me reiterate my self to your question and then I will explian where i'm comming from! as others have stated when practicing iron palm the foods of yin
in nature sugars,fruit, cold foods should be avoided. As for poisonisus hands for the baby thing, loin coin and yingy root are ingredients in dit dat jow linement and are poisonous to a certain degree, i,e ingestion or open wounds
would make you sick if you drank a substantial amount, but in no way would touching a baby be harmful to the infant and eating sugar will not make you go insane!so dont think I dont know what I'M talking about for I have trained and taught CMA for 19 years now and some things i hear just make me laugh, but no dissrespect I just want to help you understand that people exaggerate.its like the suburban legend goes if you pee in a pool a red ring will form around you ....so when you were a kid you didnt pee in the pool and kids beleived it.as for the sterile thing, if you practice iron pellet striking incorrectly you can damage the nerve endings in your fingers tips are connected to the major organs,the fist affected are eysight and sperm count,so improper technique can render you sickly but again not insane or sterile ! I have been doing iron palm for 4 years and the things written in books like brians are not always understood nor are they meant to learn from,so many things are left to a good teacher to show you and tell you what and how to do it! as they say on TV dont try this at home......this also means dont let a book teach you kung fu thank you 4 your time

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sil Lum Palm]

The reason I don't "know" is because I am not training in Iron Palm yet, I can't until around December. All Sifu has ever said to me about Iron Palm is " you start Iron Palm in December". The few details I have gathered has come from a few students willing enough to give me a small peek into their training and its advantages/disadvantages. Thats why I ask questions here and I am so interested when ELF talks about it, after all he is part of our system.

Sifu is really good about thoroughly explaining what he teaches, but thats it. He's not going to sit and give me details on Iron Palm until he feels I'm ready to learn it. Our Sifu is very traditional and he likes to teach the way his Masters taught him. I don't know if this makes any sense to everyone, but I understand his point. He doesn't want to overjam your head, after all learning Shaolin and ELF together is enough to puzzle most, much less throwing Iron Palm on me while I'm building the foundation for it. Thats like putting on the roof and then building your flooring system. I don't know if you read my profile but I'm a beginner in Shaolin Kung Fu, I haven't been with Sifu enough yet to absorb massive amounts of knowledge. It's hard to keep up with him, he's like a never-ending well! But, if the topic was something he has taught me in class, then maybe I would know more details. I agree I would like to know , but I don't want to ask questions off topic while he is trying to teach a class. I think the reason is as pheonix said, because of the mixture of herbs and such that you apply to your hands, but I'm not shure. I will keep you all posted after my Iron Palm begins, if I forget remind me.. I'll be here. Hope this helps.

[Sil Lum Palm]

Just to take note, I don't learn from books incase that was an issue because it sounded like it with that last remark. I don't want anyone to think that. I know the chinese are famous for makeing fantastic tales, but why would everyone else say to stay away from babies as well? I guess I'll know when its time. I just wanted some opinions, not judgement of my Sifu which I will not do to anyone else either.

[ELFdisciple]

Wow, I came in late to this one.

Si Lum, I understand you. I would defend my instructor as well in certain situations, but it is as Phoenix says. Anger in life is just like anger in a fight, it clouds you're vision and causes you to make mistakes. We all get angry, but we must learn to control our minds as well as our bodies. I understand you're dreams for the future, I share them with you and I share you're dedication as well.

To clear things up a bit, yes its true what Si Lum said, every part. My instructor had a young woman in the Iron Palm system who had sex when she was not suppose to, she is now on a daily medication to keep her sane. Yes, she had sex when she wasn't suppose to and she went insane, thats a fact. Also, you are not suppose to touch babies because of the chi, not because of herbs in the Dit Dat Jow. Lets see, I channel chi into a brick and make it split in two.... If I haven't learned how to control my chi yet, I could seriously hurt a baby, who is not much bigger than a couple of bricks. I have recently learned that our Internal Iron Palm was taught to Chao Yuh-Feng (35th Patriarch of ELF) by none other than Ku Yu Cheong, one of the five northern tigers. Everyone knows that legend I think, so the question of our authenticity is answered.

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[Sil Lum Palm]

Thanks ELF, and I understand the anger part, and I know I have to control it. It was kind of stupid of me to get offended in the first place and for the record I meant no offense to anyone else either. I'm learning.
I think the girl you were talking about is the example I was given as well, and I too heard it was indeed FACT. After all why would our instructors feel the need to lie to us? I have also heard that our Iron Palm came from Ku Yu Cheong as well, and I will be shure to ask Sifu tomorrow before class ( why else would his picture be on our honor wall?). Also, I thought it was kind of cool because your instructor has a picture with GM Kash and others at Chao Yu Feng's school ( I believe thats where it was taken). He is also in a picture we have of about 5 or six "Master's" of our system together. When I go to class tomorrow I'll get the dates and places on the pictures as well.

[EARTH DRAGON]

dear ELF disciple not to sound sarcastic but when you are learning iron palm how could you not be able to control it? in my experience of chi manipulation that is exactly what you are attempting to do control your chi! so how is it that when you are totally in control of your chi ( i.e Iron palm training) could you not hurt or be rough with something fragile if you did not wish to! i'm a little confused I learned iron palm from sifu john newberry! iIsuggest you veiw his break www.prayingmantiskungfu.com (http://www.prayingmantiskungfu.com)

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[JerryLove]

I've had more than once incidence with iron work. There was a while (around the second year I was studying at my current school) I was doing a lot of Iron shirt (and palm) and so was the guy I always worked with.

I went back to the "Phase 1" (1st 6 months) class (cause we are supposed to) and accidentally injured the phase 1 student (not major, but would not have normally happened). About 1 week and 2 incidents later, I learned that I now needed to be really careful to avoid injuring students who had not started their iron-body yet.

Though I cannot say I ran into this problem in day-to-day life (injuring the cat when I picked it up) or anything like that.

[ELFdisciple]

When we first begin our training, we are causing alot of chi to flow that we normally don't experience. Control is something that we learn, but you can't learn to control something you haven't even experienced yet. Ever try to drive a car with a manual transmission? More than likely the first couple times you started to let the clutch out you stalled it. Maybe you gave it too much gas and caused the tires to squeek. Its the same concept with Iron Palm training, I don't know how to control it yet because I've never experienced it yet.

We had one student who had been doing the training for only about 3 weeks. She got into her car one night, reached up and tapped the rearview mirror to adjust it and ended up covering herself in glass. She shattered the mirror completely and totally unintentionally. Imagine if she had been playing with a child, poking and tickling an infant or a toddler. She used a light tapping motion, nothing hard.

My instructor one day was showing a student how to perform a series of techniques, he was using me to help illustrate. He flew threw a set of strikes, using me as the attacker. Then he slowed it down and showed the student what to do, lightly brushing my body with the techniques. One was a slapping motion to the chest, he was being light and going slow to show the student. His chi came out and went into my chest. It felt like he drove a butcher knife inbetween my ribs and started twisting it. It was a light contact, not even a hit, it was unintentional.

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[JerryLove]

"My instructor had a young woman in the Iron Palm system who had sex when she was not suppose to, she is now on a daily medication to keep her sane. Yes, she had sex when she wasn't suppose to and she went insane, thats a fact."

Are we talking clinical or legal insanity? What is the actual diagnosis? What medication? Why didn't the instructor repair the damage?

[Sil Lum Palm]

I also recently had an Iron Palm experience. I put the story in the Iron Palm post on the main forum. I was injured by a light tap from an Iron Palm practitioner as well while sparring in class. I released the energy with several applications of Dit Da Jow and some massage. ELF, I wouldn't bother to worry about trying to explain too much... just by this post I've learned that there wil allways be those that even questin the truth. It's the way humans think. Most of us feel the need to show someone thier wrong, I think they get thrill from it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

sil lum palm, i'm am in no way trying to be argumentive or questioning your's or elf training, i'm just trying to figure out what is the truth and what is exaggerated rumors! I train with a very famous qi-gong master Yen Chu Feng in the art of jin gon tzu li gung "shooting medical chi"a very high level used to heal people, so i'm not talking out of ignorance nor am I judging you or your training methods, but in the 19 years plus I have never heard of people not being able to control their chi, when learning qi-gong techniques such as iron palm! when a person is at the level of learning how to cultivate chi, moving chi, and shooting chi as needed to break in iron palm training! they in no way are not able to control it. this is unbelieveable to hear, if one is at that level and has no idea how to control his emination of such power they has no business trying to learn as such! i.e as a person advances in levels his control should be greater than that of a beginner, if a sifu or high ranking student can't hit with minimal contact such as in sparring and can only strike with force than they are not in control of their body or (yi) intent, or what they have learned! our sensei used to kick match sticks out of our mouth to show us control, I would not want somone that has little or no control to try that. nor would I teach a student high level qi-gong without them being in total control of not only their body but of their mind. Once again I mean no disrespect but I find your posts to be some what of a fluke. can you or ELF explain. thank you

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sil Lum Palm]

Your right, pure fluke. I better go get my money back. Bye. I'm done here.

[JerryLove]

Neat, you 2 registered on the same day and are only 1 post apart.

[ELFdisciple]

Earth Dragon, I understand what you are saying about control, but do you understand what I am saying about INTERNAL Iron Palm. In our art we break bricks with the arm fully extended and the bricks are at either chest or belly level. The palm is only a couple of inches above the top brick when it comes down for the tap. And I do mean tap. To show control you must break one brick out of a stack of five and that one has to be number 3 or 4 from the top. We do not use ANY external force, no muscle whatsoever. That is true Internal Iron Palm, the chi does the break, not the body. (BTW, we don't use 'spacers' either, the bricks are stacked on top of each other.)

My instructor is a master of several arts, and if in his art you cannot show control you either get 1,000 push ups or you get sent packing. The times that he has lost control of his chi can be counted on one finger, and I told you about that one time. But the fact of the matter is that accidents happen, I was only trying to illustrate the amount of chi that can be expelled. If you have never heard of something like this then maybe its never happened to you or the people you know. But its my experience that chi is a very hard thing to control and it comes out when you least expect it and only when you aren't trying to force it.

Try this, we have an exercise that we do to test our control and the amount of chi we are expelling. Put you're hand up to a mirror, do not touch it, just put you're hand up to it. The chi from you're hand will cause the mirror to fog up around the hand. If you are a beginner like me you can sometimes get a three foot section of the mirror to fog. On a good day my instructor can 'shoot chi' and cause an entire floor length mirror to fog up. If you can do this, then experiment with it. Try forcing the chi, I guarantee it won't work, then try relaxing and letting the chi flow, it might work. This is how we do things, its real, it works, I have seen and experienced it personally. Chi is almost impossible to control for me, when I want it, its not there most of the time and when I don't want it, it comes out by itself. Controlling Chi isn't like controlling a kick or a punch, you can't just stop it and start it. Kicking matches out of people's mouths shows you can control a kick, but can he break one brick at the bottom of a stack of five that are sitting on a silk pillow?

BTW, the girl was found to have a chemical imbalance of the brain, I never found out what medication she was on.

This is the last time I will attempt to explain my art. I try to have an open mind towards others and what they practice or believe, but I find this tiresome. I am not accustomed to having people doubt my word, or even think that I may be lying. I have no reason to lie, I have nothing to gain or lose here. You're questions are tainted with disrespect and not a genuine quest for knowledge.

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[This message was edited by ELFdisciple on 07-14-01 at 06:22 AM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

please dont feel you have to explain your words or your art to me, or that I think your lieing!this board is for learning questions/answers and talk of CMA just like a freindly debate everyone is entilted to their opions, wether right or wrong. Im not saying I know more than the guy next to me, its just from my experience some of the things said in this thread seemed exaggerated and I didnt mean to offend anyone like you or sil lum palm but when posting topics in a forum you will have different feedback from everyone.So again my opion! our internal break starts with the back of the hand flat on block, then with a turning motion we turn the hand over keeping in constant contact with the block and break from shooting chi through the (lao gung) center of the palm. I beleive this is almost the same method. we donot strike the block with force either. As for fogging up a mirror It is my understanding of (Wei chi) that it can be different colors and characteristics i.e my qi-gong teachers is white and angelic mine is blue and electric my kung fu brother's is red, soothing. I'M not talking about auroa,shockras or illian photography but of chi. So if this is true how can everyone have the same effect on a mirror that is sensitive to heat? when I shoot chi into someone for healing purposes they all have the same reaction very diffrent from my teacher so I am to beleive that everyones chi is different like that that of a finger print or personality. please respond

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Braden]

I can't take any more.
I am going to snap.

[JerryLove]

I agree, I don't know what is worse, the proof by repeated asserting or the pandering to someone whose ego bruises so easily and who becomes such a jerk about it.

[Sil Lum Palm]

I'm sorry this has gotten very off topic. I apologize once again to all of you. What I was wanting to know was "How many of you practice the Internal Irom Palm Methods", and can you describe it?
That was what I was wanting to discuss. So Earth Dragon I am interested in what you have to say as well as ELF and the others, but let's not throw anymore dung okay? Maybe we can all learn more that way.
If I can help you any further with the previous debate lets do it by e-mail so the others don't have to hear it.

Now... anyone want to describe thier Iron Palm skills/training?

[EARTH DRAGON]

I apologize if I offended anyone in this forum with my comments and opions on iron palm! just wanted to add to the conversation my point of veiw.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[IronFist]

About why would you instructors feel the need to lie to you?

Ever heard that something must be practised EVERY day at the EXACT same time, and if one day your practice is even off by one minute, all your training will have been wasted?

That's not exactly FACT, but was presented as such to keep students dedicated. I suspect the story about the girl having sex and going crazy is similar.

Iron

[JerryLove]

Typically, in most qigong systems. The sex warning isn't as stringent on women as on men. They basic preimse is that to create a child, a man donates qi in the form of sperm. Therefore, when trying to perform an exercise which packs and manipulates qi, you want to build a functional base first, and cannot afford to loose qi to ejacualtion.

Regardless, even excepting this logic as fact, the damage done should the correctable by anyone with qi-manipulation skills (acupuncturists, qigong healers, dim-mak people, TCM herbalists, etc).

[ELFdisciple]

The woman never returned to us, after her experience she never came back in contact with our school. So nobody had a chance to try to help her.

*I agree, I don't know what is worse, the proof by repeated asserting or the pandering to someone whose ego bruises so easily and who becomes such a jerk about it.

I'm sorry you see things this way. But I cannot prove things to you without physical interaction, the internet is limited to words only. And if I seem like a jerk at times its because I don't like to get 'beat up' about something I believe in. Sure, you may not believe me, but that doesn't mean you have to bash me for what I believe. That may not be what was happening with Earth Dragon, but that is what my reaction was to my percieved assault. I apologize to everyone for this disruption, it is my unbending ego and the fact that I refuse to allow myself to be attacked, whether I am being attacked or not. I speak from my experiences and from what I know in my heart to be true by my experiences, but I had forgotten that my experiences are not the same as the worlds. And though something may be truth to me, it may not be truth to the world, and I should not seek to make it so. "Walk you're own path."

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[JerryLove]

Actually, that last post was a response to Iron Dragon, not a crack at you.

The fact that I gave no details and named no names on the post previous and yet you knew exactly whom I was talking about speaks volumes.

But you have already apologized and there is no point in continuing that line of conversation.

[suff0beast]

If you are studying under one of Brian Gray's Top students, then you are basically studying under Brian Gray. Have you gone through the Longfist portion of the training, or are you just doing primarily the Iron Palm? Reason I ask is becasue I tlak ot Brian all the time, I met him through my work, however I have not been able to get any info on where/when how he received his system. I don't care about lineage, but I would like to know if anyone can give me any info or vouch for his teaching. I have read your posts as well for the Jim Lacy. Just curious. Email me direct. clgx051@earthlink.net

Rick
:)

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Earth Dragon -

You said it all. Thanks.

Damian

[Nexus]

Just to comment on Earth Dragons words saying, " so I am to beleive that everyones chi is different like that that of a finger print or personality. please respond"

Chi is life force, carried on the breath. It is a universal energy, not something that you nor I have associated to us. And when we die, it leaves the body. Yes, I am reiterating things you know, but how does a universal life force have individual fingerprints in each person? Sounds more like theory and something that would be near to impossible to prove. Now, I would believe people have a different level of controlling, using, manipulating, circulating that chi. And to the uneducated, it might appear as if this chi is peronalized to this person, when in fact it is personalized to the persons skill level.

- Nexus

[CrushingFist]

i would just like to say, i don't believe that. Why? because you should be able to hold the chi back, and not put it out through your hand. a hand is a hand, but if u put chi out thru it, it's really dangerous, like iron palm practitioners do. if u can't control ur chi, u shouldn't be taught something like iron palm.

[EARTH DRAGON]

although chi is universal, when conducted through human beings it takes on different characteristics. One such proof is the chi feels differently through every person, again When my qigong teacher was doing healings a lot of times she would have me work on her paitents for practice and alomst all of them said they felt much different when I was performing qigong as opposed to her. Hers was soothing and white mine was electric and blue, my qigong teacher said this the minute I projected my qi from my body One lady even said that she didnt want me practicing on her becuse she could not sleep the nights that my qi was sent through her. So again just like we have different aurra's, colors and depths we also have different emitence of chi the best word I could descibe it would be characteristics. Yo usaid it would be hard to prove in your post! qi is still not proven but you know it exsists, therfore open your mind and dont rule out something that has never been scientifically proven

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Royal Dragon]

Hello,
I too have heard the "Don't Touch babys" thing

My Iron hand consists of various systems form various schools I have been at over the years. Basically, I have always been told that students who are NOT ready for the training are at risk for theses types of problems, and generally a quality Sifu will not teach a student the system untill he thinks they are ready to handle themselves safetly.

I have never heard of any types of "insanity" occuring because of "improper" or "promiscuious" behavior. I have been told that certain types of intamacy would retartd the training, especially with men, but to be honest with you, I have known a good number of guys completely ignor that advice, only to be able to break STACKS of bricks with little effort.

This maybe one of those things that just got eggasgerated greatly over time.

Think about it guys, your just hitting stuff with some extra UMPH!!, nothing more. You move Chi when practicing Taji or Bagua ot Hsing I, yet theses restrictions are not imposed for those arts, why would it be imposed for internal Iron Hand?

On a funnier note, when you can project your chi, slowly move your hand behind your mate's back, and think of something silly and simutaniusly "Project".

Mine gets a cold shiver/chill every time!!!!

Royal Dragon


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[bearpaw]

It is said that their are five different "types" of Chi. Like the five elements, differnet people generate those types. The masters can generate a "white" Chi which is mixed of all of them. One way of fighting is to infuse your different Chi into someone else, thus causing a disruption of their Chi. Your Chi is possible determend by your body type. Also sence Chi is stored/generated by living tissue, those with high cell count (more mass) can (and must sence Chi is the force of change) generate/store more Chi. This also helps explain Chi differentails between people, Chi will flow from high to low like water. I have book that explanes it but a friend is borrowing it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

thank you bearpaw for trying to explain what I mean when I say different chi for different people, it just seems as though some people dont understand that and simply think all chi is the same no matter who it comes from.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nexus]

Thanks bearpaw.

- Nexus