fukien shaolin temple history

[brucereiter]

hello all,

can anyone provide historical information about the "southern shaolin temple" or fukien temple?

names of various famous monks?
years of "operation"?
styles practiced there?
location?
was there more than one location?
if you were a layman in the area what did you refer to the temple as?
if you were a layman in the area what did you think went on at the fukien temple?
when the temple was destroyed was everyone really killed except the 5 elders?
is there any proof about the fukien temple or is it all just ledgend?

[The Xia]

http://www.hungkuen.net/history-riddleofshaolin.htm

[brucereiter]

http://www.hungkuen.net/history-riddleofshaolin.htm

this is a interesting artical ... but i have already read it ...
i wonder if anyone can answer any of these questions based on teachings from their styles traditions?

[brucereiter]

hello all,

i am surprised nobody has offered and information regarding the fukien temple.

[David Jamieson]

There really isn't anything beyond legends and myths for the most part.
Most of the factual history doesn't exist and it is still to this day arguable as to whether or not a bonafide southern shaolin temple did exist at all or if it was a buddhist temple taht harboured refugee monks from the northern temple like all the other temples taht have been called "shaolin" but aren't.

Recently, there was some noise about a temple being dug up in an archaeological expedition in China in Fujian Province. There has been some raised eyebrows though because there is thought that perhaps the PRC is fanfaring this in order to solidify the legitimacy of their new southern shaolin temple that they have built an placed shaolin monks in as a tourist trap for martial arts enthusiasts.

There very well may have been a southern temple. There is certainly a lot of stories and legends of one and the time it was said to have existed and been most active was the last dynasty or teh Qing Dynasty.

There is not a lot of actual Historical evidence, if any at all that fully supports these claims.

A lot remains to be seen.

[djcaldwell]

I had this discussion about a year ago regarding the Southern Shaolin Temple which was supposed to be located in Fukien. I had people tell me they've seen the location where it was and yadda, yadda. I did some research on my own and had some great conversations with someone in HK who actually did the research into the temple and pretty much came up with exactly what David is saying...there is no "proof" to substantiate the existance of a Southern Temple.

I emailed Benny Meng of the Wing Chung (Ving Tsung) Association asking him if there was any documentation to substantiate the infomration in his articles (which when reading them you are lead to believe this is certainly the southern shaolin temple) regarding the temples discovery. All I got back were more copies of his articles. The truth is that YES there was a find in fukien of temple remains, however there is nothing showing it to be of any affiliation with the Northern Temple or part of the Shaolin order. There is no documentation or even archiological finds that can prove this at this time. I tend to agree with David and the others at this time who have researched this extensively and concluded that the new "discovery" is more the PRC capitalizing on the popularity and desire to locate the temple then you can have another tourist attraction.

But if they can show that this was the temple then that would be great. Perhaps there is more there than they have found so far but so far...no so.

[TenTigers]

from what I've read, the archeological find might be the remnants of the Fukien Siu-Lum, but ninetheless, they built the new temple on da different site that would be more accessable for tourism, such as better parking. Typical.

[brucereiter]

hi guys,

thanks for your input. this leads me to a question about the history of many arts which claim linieage from the southern "fukien" shaolin temple. does it make there art less valid since no real proof can be shown to verify their claims to the southern temple?

[The Willow Sword]

It was most likely a Taoist temple. not a buddhist one. i had also read that when they were digging at the site they found some items that looked like sai? i think i read that somewhere Here in this forum. but forgot what thread it was. time to do a southern shaolin temple search in the forum here. TWS

[David Jamieson]

yes they did find various weapons at the site. which actually moves it away from a buddhist temple or more in line with perhaps a mohist, possibly a taoist temple or sanctuary.

buddhist didn't tend to keep weapons of war inside the temple walls. Buddha no likey.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think much of the confusion regarding the fighting arts of the temples is generated by the "shadow" of Shaolin. It has twisted our perceptions to the point of seeing any temple art in China outside of the Shaolin Temple in Honan traditions as an extension of that temple.

Fukien Shaolin should be viewed as Fukien Temple fighting arts and so forth.

I prefer to use the term Buddhist Temple Fighting Arts; or, simply, Temple Fighting Arts: an umbrella term that includes Buddhist temples throughout Asia as well as China (Temple Fighting Arts is global). This includes the fighting sciences as well as the internal alchemical elements that allow for total development of the human being.

This may make it easier to focus on the differences, the flavors and internal structures that are the hallmarks of each temple. It may also make it easier to see the connectives between one temple and another.

mickey

[brucereiter]

Greetings,

I think much of the confusion regarding the fighting arts of the temples is generated by the "shadow" of Shaolin. It has twisted our perceptions to the point of seeing any temple art in China outside of the Shaolin Temple in Honan traditions as an extension of that temple.

Fukien Shaolin should be viewed as Fukien Temple fighting arts and so forth.

I prefer to use the term Buddhist Temple Fighting Arts; or, simply, Temple Fighting Arts: an umbrella term that includes Buddhist temples throughout Asia as well as China (Temple Fighting Arts is global). This includes the fighting sciences as well as the internal alchemical elements that allow for total development of the human being.

This may make it easier to focus on the differences, the flavors and internal structures that are the hallmarks of each temple. It may also make it easier to see the connectives between one temple and another.

mickey

that is interesting ... do you think the various temples had any contact with each other?

[mickey]

Greetings shaolindoiscool,

I do believe that. To keep calling other temples "Shaolin" does not seem right.


mickey

[mickey]

To clarify,

Shaolin is the name of a Buddhist temple in Honan province.

To say "Fukien Shaolin" suggests that there was a Shaolin temple in Fukien. This is not to say that there was never any kind of cross pollinization of techniques. A particular style may have been transmitted from one temple to monks of a particular temple for purposes of survival. That style may be preserved as is or adapted,while maintaining its fighting integrity, to fit the internal matrix that exists at that particular temple.

mickey

[brucereiter]

hi ...

one of the things i have heard about fukien temple from my school is that it was not locally known as "shaolin" temple. can this be verified?

[mickey]

Hello again,


Simply find out the name of the temple. I remember reading that your Sifu went to China. He should have the necessary contacts to find that out.



mickey

[TenTigers]

It was the Shalom Temple Beth-Isreal run by Rabbi Bruce Leebowitz, whom you may remember as the lead in "Enter the Dreidle"
Remember the scene where they are all punching, "Oy! OY! OY!, the back..."

[TenTigers]

"you have insulted my family, and you have insulted a Shalom Temple.
You will hear from my lawyer!"

[Yao Sing]

Yo Vinnie, I got your Fukien Shaolin Temple right here you Fukien chooch. You Fukien retard. :)

[LongPath]

I found this rather interesting...

http://www.shaolin-wahnam-center.org/sifu/lineage.htm


Take a look at the rest of the site as well.

Comments?

[Citong Shifu]

The Fukien or Fujian shaolin temple was originally built in the city of "Citong" now known as "Quanzhou" about 1100 years ago. The 3 authentic shaolin styles where taught; Shaolinquan, shaolin louhan quan, and shaolin di shu (dog boxing). Other styles were later brought in from outside the temple and are referred to as shaolin sub-styles due to the mixing of fujian shaolin techniques.....

Furthermore, Fujian shaolin was noted to have further perfected shaolin kung fu especially during the Qing dynasty and before the last destruction of the temple. Not all of the Fujian shaolin monks where kung fu master, mostly farmers and religon. Some of the monks that were kung fu temple warriors were the ones that became famous; Wu Mei, Gee Sin, Hoi Kai, etc. laypersons that had saught the protection of fujian shaolin and became legendary shaolin legends were; Fong Shi Yu, etc..

Hung Gar, Wing Chun, etc were created after the final destruction of fujian shaolin and are considered shaolin sub-rooted or style, due to the shaolin influence.

Actually there were more than 5 kung fu masters that escaped the destruction of fujian temple. The story of the 5 masters who escaped was fathered through time to validate someone elses claims and lineage/s.....

This info is according to our history and lineage - Citong Shaolin Kung fu Academy -

Sifu Ron.

[brucereiter]

hi ron / longpath,

thank you for your input ...


i liked this quote from the wahnam site:
<<Briefly my comments are as follows. Whether our lineage is authentic or not is our business, not theirs. My students learned from me, just as I learned from my masters, not because of the teachers' lineage but because we were satisfied with their teaching. We remember our lineage not because we wish to impress others but because we want to honour our teachers. Notwithstanding this, someone with a distinguished lineage may not necessarily be an expert exponent. His own teacher may be a great kungfu master, but if he has not trained well or sufficiently he himself would be a bad exponent.>>

[kwaichang]

The Sai could have been a pich fork much like the ones from Okinawa it does not mean it was a sai or even a weapon so then it could have been Buddhist Kc

[B-Rad]

From the photos I saw there was one "sai", a couple trident heads, what looked like a short sword or two, and at least one spear head.

[B-Rad]

Here's a crummy photo of the weapons found: http://www.russbo.com/shaolinhistory/images/southern3.jpg

[Yao Sing]

Actually there were more than 5 kung fu masters that escaped the destruction of fujian temple.

Yeah, I hear one of them had a hairy face. :p

[B-Rad]

I found this rather interesting...

http://www.shaolin-wahnam-center.org/sifu/lineage.htm


Take a look at the rest of the site as well.

Comments?
WKK makes some silly claims, and I haven't liked what I've seen from his students one bit either. Not being a historical expert myself, I can't say how accurate that part of his knowledge base is, but because of what I've seen so far I'm inclined not to trust anything he says without a more reliable outside source.

[brucereiter]

hello everyone,

i would like this thread to remain respectful. if you do not like some teacher or style please refrain from posting about it here. i would simply like to know more about all of the stories and legends around the "southern temple". there are many traditions who claim some sort of link and i would think there is a bit of truth in most of them.

[The Willow Sword]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=158

TWS

[brucereiter]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=158

TWS

good reading .... thanks.

what does this say about all off the japanese and chinese arts who trace their roots to the fukien temple? does this mean they have made up stories and their art is not "real"

[mantis108]

I posted some thoughts about it sometime ago:

Posted this reply on the KFO. Enjoy:


Southern Shaolin Enigma,

There are some accounts based on unofficial researches that went on about the Southern Shaolin lore. It's definitely a vastly different picture then we are normally fed. These accounts are a lot more complicated and showed a delicate situation and relationship that's developed amongst the rebel forces mostly connected to Fujian Province where the Southern Shaolin temple is said to be located.

By all accounts, secret society Hong Men is considered pivotal in the tales of Southern Shaolin lore. It is believed that the five elders of Hong Men were properly factual people and the location, Gao Xi temple, where they took the oath is also factual. The Monk in charged of the temple belonged to an order of monks, known as Xiang Hua (aromatic flowers) , which is another obscured monk order in the Fujian area. This monk is said to have connections to a temple in Quan Zhou County, where the Dong Ch'an Si also nick named Southern Shaolin temple is found. He also became a Hong Men member in the capacity of strategist. The Hong Men was fighting along side with the Ming loyalists, headed by the Cheng family, relocated to Taiwan in the beginning. In fact when the leader of the Hong Men was killed in a battle, his plague was placed in the worship hall in the Ming loyalist palace. But it was later removed because of rumors that he didn't die an honor death on the battle field. This caused a rift between the Hong Men and the Ming loyalists. Some of the higher ups of Hong Men surrendered to the Qing imperial court and turned their spear heads towards the Ming loyalists in Taiwan to avenge the insult. But as the Qing got the Ming loyalists under control. They also got rid of the Hong Men people by executing 2 of the high ranking collaborators. This caused the Hong Men to ally themselves with the Ming loyalists (what's left of it) again.

This rather detailed account according to the mainland researchers of the Hong Men saga explains alot of the discrepancies in the written records of Hong Men organization. How could one clearly account for all the twists and turns of rebellion politics without coming out as the bad guy (at least in perception)? It also harmonized alot of the different lores out there. There was not an actual Southern Shaolin temple per se. Rather it was the Dong Cha'n temple (said to be where descendents of Song imperial court where teaching their family art - Taizu Changquan there) that carries the reputation of "Southern Shaolin temple".

So the Shaolin lores may not be entirely fabricated but they are not exactly accurate per se. So.. much caveat is needed when doing a lineage research on anything southern shaolin.

The Shaolin Temple's prestiege came from a history of patronage of the imperial courts. It was build by the Emperor Liang Wu Di. During Tong Dynasty, it was involved in helping one of the most brilliant Emperors of China - Tong Tai Zhong to escape capture from enemy hands before he ascended to the throne. At the end of Song Dynasty, the Shaolin Temple received the Mongolian leaders at the time and therefore gain the favor the Yuan imperial court also. It's also during that time that it held a great debate between Buddhists and Daoists in China. They won back all the monastery that was confescated by the Song government and given into the hands of Daosits. Throughout the dynasties, there are 7 Shaolin Temple build all over China. This is the reason that Shaolin got such popularity in folk lores.

However, at the grass root level where folk lores are created, there's almost always a grey area. Religion isn't just divided into Buddhists and Daosits although they are the 2 main sources. There are also Islam, Jeudaism, Hindu even Pursian religions were observed. This is the realm of cults (not saying Islam, Jeudaism and Hindu are cults). Cults are usually a mixture of a few different regilion believes and form a "convenient" practice for the folks. They are not bad per se. But it could get out of hand if not checked. Such is the case with the White Lotus. People, researchers included, generally down played the importance of cult influences on Kung Fu. Such is the case with the obscure monk order mentioned in my quote. But without the Cult involvement we would not have such a wide spread and wide array of Kung Fu today IMHO.

Quan Zhou, Fujian in my mind is the craddle of Southern Shaolin Kung Fu as we know it due to evidences that there seemed to have both a "southern Shaolin" Temple as well as a "White Lotus" Temple exsited side by side. BTW, some accounts credit the White Lotus temple as the birth place of Fujian White Crane as well as Dog boxing (although most likely at different time). Some would argue that Fuzhou, which is further north and an important sea port, is more important in the development of Southern Kung Fu. I would see Fuzhou as a spring board in the development and evolution of Southern Kung Fu.

Just a few thoughts

Mantis108

[mickey]

Mantis108,

You are right on time!

Excellent post.



mickey

[Yum Cha]

When it comes to southern kung fu, and its origins, the problem comes with the insistance that it comes from some kind of shaolin "centre".

I've heard an oral history that says that there were many temples, some pious, some simply "men's homes." Temples were where trouble makers, criminals or simply lost men could shave their head and find sanctuary. It was not necessary to have exceptional spirituality or discipline, and many had military background. Some temples were/became homes to revolutionaries, anti-ching in nature, as was the politics of the time.

One such temple, full of militarised monks, anti-ching in their orientation was what has become the so called "Southern Shaolin" temple. Maybe out of solidarity for the Shaolin order, maybe due to the actual presence of a Shaolin teacher, who knows.

The story than continues into the relationship between this temple and the Pak Mei style.

To my mind, this superficial observation seems to fit with some of the research that people have highlighted here.

[David Jamieson]

When it comes to southern kung fu, and its origins, the problem comes with the insistance that it comes from some kind of shaolin "centre".

I've heard an oral history that says that there were many temples, some pious, some simply "men's homes." Temples were where trouble makers, criminals or simply lost men could shave their head and find sanctuary. It was not necessary to have exceptional spirituality or discipline, and many had military background. Some temples were/became homes to revolutionaries, anti-ching in nature, as was the politics of the time.

One such temple, full of militarised monks, anti-ching in their orientation was what has become the so called "Southern Shaolin" temple. Maybe out of solidarity for the Shaolin order, maybe due to the actual presence of a Shaolin teacher, who knows.

The story than continues into the relationship between this temple and the Pak Mei style.

To my mind, this superficial observation seems to fit with some of the research that people have highlighted here.

You raise a couple of interesting points here that are generally lost sight of. The temple system still operates in such a way as to have quite a lot of non-pious folk in them that frankly are there to get good karma for their families or any number of the other reasons you listed. Temples filled with bachelor packs of young males lol.

This is tradition in some places still to this day. And a good thing too when you think of how much the Buddhist temples and their monks helped when the tsunami hit not so long ago.

Anyway, people like to dress up a run down apartment when it's the only place they have to be right? :)

Southern Shaolin tradition has a lot to do with the diaspora of the idea
There was a perpetuation of repeated meddling by europeans powers, peasant revolts,drug problems, what better heroes to represent than shaolin warriors.

even half a loaf of kungfu is better than no loaf in some cases.

Another tradition is to honour those who came before and despite the various fighting styles, part of it was the spirit of the idea of holy warriors in the flesh that the shaolin had come to represent and still do in many peoples minds. Hence the attribution of so many styles to the idea of the shaolin.

Does Shaolin need a building anymore to be Shaolin? :)

[brucereiter]

interesting points of veiw. i dont think "shaolin" needs a building it might be more of an idea ... ???

[mantis108]

When it comes to southern kung fu, and its origins, the problem comes with the insistance that it comes from some kind of shaolin "centre".

Having a "proper" source of information is very important in everything Chinese. ;)
That's the reason people make such a big deal about lineage. This is of course Confucian influence through out the ages in China also government policies especailly during Ming dynasty (1368-1644). I think a lot of people don't realize how much of these policies from that particular period of time affected the Chinese pysche. Frankly, the idea of Men Pai (system, style, and school all inclusive) in martial arts pretty much was formed during Ming dynasty. This is done mainly due to a military police that military family status, ranks, pay and titles were inherited. Once a solider; always a solider, and so would your immediate family from then on. It was of course a measure for the stability of the country but also the control that the government can have on the military. Civil officiers were placed as the highest command and eunuches were placed as commisary of the Emperor and spys on the military organization. You can see why martial arts family relationship became even more tightly formed. IMHO, to understand the evolution of Kung Fu and CMA in general, it is important to take Chinese history into account.


I've heard an oral history that says that there were many temples, some pious, some simply "men's homes." Temples were where trouble makers, criminals or simply lost men could shave their head and find sanctuary. It was not necessary to have exceptional spirituality or discipline, and many had military background. Some temples were/became homes to revolutionaries, anti-ching in nature, as was the politics of the time.

Here's yet another "misconception". Religious monastries and temples were under a religious ministry. It's more or less like the Vatican has control over all its churches. This is why we find record of a "southern Shaolin temple" in the first place. It recieved it's "ordinance" from the Emperor! There is no such a thing as "free agent" temple unless it is being abandon for whatever reasons (ie war, famine, relocation, etc). Ming dynasty policy dictated that all monks and priests regardless of rank to be registered with the government and they are under the supervision of the religious ministry. All of them MUST carry a identification paper (Dao Die). This practice is still in effect even today in HK at least. Now of course, rules are make to be broken providing there is enough incentives. ;)


One such temple, full of militarised monks, anti-ching in their orientation was what has become the so called "Southern Shaolin" temple. Maybe out of solidarity for the Shaolin order, maybe due to the actual presence of a Shaolin teacher, who knows.

Ming military structure includes monk troops. There are records of their general activities. Henan Shaolin temple is one of the many temples that provided the troops. But they are more well known because of their "affiliation" with the famous General Yu Dayou, who happened to be a native of Fujian and possibly had learned "Shaolin Kung Fu" in Quan Zhou (according to folk lore).


The story than continues into the relationship between this temple and the Pak Mei style.

We know for a fact that Cheung Lai Chuan's Hakka connection. We know that the religious inclination of CLC is remarkably close to Jiangxi Liumen Jiao. Some Kung Fu in Jiangxi have connections to Fujian White Crane and possible other Hakka styles from that region. It would seem that Southern Mantis was created in Jiangxi. BTW, in some Southern Mantis lineages, there are forms that are named Mantis (ie mantis bathing in the sun). There are some interesting similarity in Bak Mei to Southerm Mantis and to some degree Hakka Tiger style (thanks to Eric Ling's sharing). The famous form Meng Fu Chu Lum, as least the name, is found in some White Crane lineages as well. There's nothing in CLC's Bak Mei as far as I am aware that resembles anything from MA of Omei region. I could be wrong though. So...


To my mind, this superficial observation seems to fit with some of the research that people have highlighted here.

Well, it's a supposition as much as my supposition mentioned above until all facts can be proven. So...it's all good.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Yum Cha]

Hi Mantis,
Its always rewarding when you share your knowledge, thank you once again.




Here's yet another "misconception". Religious monastries and temples were under a religious ministry. It's more or less like the Vatican has control over all its churches. This is why we find record of a "southern Shaolin temple" in the first place. It recieved it's "ordinance" from the Emperor! There is no such a thing as "free agent" temple unless it is being abandon for whatever reasons (ie war, famine, relocation, etc). Ming dynasty policy dictated that all monks and priests regardless of rank to be registered with the government and they are under the supervision of the religious ministry. All of them MUST carry a identification paper (Dao Die). This practice is still in effect even today in HK at least. Now of course, rules are make to be broken providing there is enough incentives. ;)

------> I wonder. Does this 'ordance" apply to all sects, daoist as well as buddhist, as well as others, to your knowledge. It certainly makes sense that it would. Is it workable under this system that there could be single temples that could have ordance from the government, without affilliation to any other group? I would think so, but I'm no where near as well informed on Chinese history and culture as I wish I were.



Ming military structure includes monk troops. There are records of their general activities. Henan Shaolin temple is one of the many temples that provided the troops. But they are more well known because of their "affiliation" with the famous General Yu Dayou, who happened to be a native of Fujian and possibly had learned "Shaolin Kung Fu" in Quan Zhou (according to folk lore).

----> The Temple where CLC allegedly learned his Kung Fu is called Gwong Ho, or Gwang Xi (sorry, I'm awful with romanising Chinese) but is pictured here: http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/pix/guang1.html

----> To your knowledge does this fit into the scheme of this ancient history, or is it more contemporary?

We know for a fact that Cheung Lai Chuan's Hakka connection. We know that the religious inclination of CLC is remarkably close to Jiangxi Liumen Jiao. Some Kung Fu in Jiangxi have connections to Fujian White Crane and possible other Hakka styles from that region. It would seem that Southern Mantis was created in Jiangxi. BTW, in some Southern Mantis lineages, there are forms that are named Mantis (ie mantis bathing in the sun). There are some interesting similarity in Bak Mei to Southerm Mantis and to some degree Hakka Tiger style (thanks to Eric Ling's sharing). The famous form Meng Fu Chu Lum, as least the name, is found in some White Crane lineages as well. There's nothing in CLC's Bak Mei as far as I am aware that resembles anything from MA of Omei region. I could be wrong though. So...

-----> Yes, Eric has been a bit of a revelation, and I likewise have developed an admiration for his knowledge and generosity in sharing. I don't know if it is off topic, but could you tall me more about Jiangxi Liumen Jiao? Is Jiangxi a region, and Liumen Jiao the belief system? I assume it is primarially a Hakka thing?

Thanks in advance.

[shadowlin]

I absolutely have faith in the existence of a Southern temple, and the proof is in all of the stories and lineages that have arisen afterward, including my own. Each that I have seen has a different "twist" on the flavor of styles, even those considered internal or Northern in nature, not exactly southern, but brought there. The difference in Southern styles likely reflects the needs of a different people in a different political climate - AND with different body types.
In my oral tradition, the original temple was very large, even larger than the northern temple, but was destroyed many centuries ago in war. When the monks came together to form a new temple, they split it into many small buildings and a series of homes, and this together appeared to be more like a village. It was still later on burned - not by enemies - but by the people of the temples themselves in order to avoid direct conflict with the warlords and emperor at the time.

Unfortunately, these traditions are sort of supporting themselves with their own flimsy paper columns, but the fact remains that the lineages had to come from somewhere. Never has my style's tradition been to say they came right out of the Shaolin temple, but yet we have an oddly large collection of Shaolin, Wudan, Hua, and Ermei shan material which was not gathered at those temples. This leads me to suspect that the lineage is very authentic, but also very distant from the temple, to the point that it's nearly forgotten.

But the southern temple seems more likely to have existed than not, but less likely to have been as powerful in the end than the Northern temple.

Someone posed a question on here about the authenticity of styles claiming to be southern. My friend, if that's how you judge authenticity, you will never understand Shaolin Gung Fu, because it's the heart of the forms and the teachings that determine the authenticity, not the lineages.

[tattooedmonk]

The styles of the South Shaolin lineage have a reputation for their great effectiveness and power. This article gives an insight into what has made them this way, tracing their history to the legendary burning of the South Shaolin Temple in Fujian Province.


This article is not about any particular style within the South Shaolin family of martial arts, of which there are hundreds, and it is not meant as any kind of practical guide. Instead it is about the place and time that shaped these styles into what they are today.


Some would argue that martial arts are about action, not history – who cares where a style comes from if it is effective, right?


Wrong. In Chinese culture and in the East as a whole, heritage and ancestry are of paramount importance. In fact knowledge of and veneration for your ancestors is the greatest virtue in the Confucian canon and so it is in the martial arts world.


In practical terms this is embodied in the concept of a pattern. A pattern can be seen as an exercise in grounding yourself in certain basic principles, it can be seen as a form of shadow boxing, but it is also a method of transmitting the styles heritage. This is best understood if you see a pattern as an object of art that has been crafted by each successive generation of masters, all of whom have left their unique signature on it. A skilled eye can see these signature features and trace the movements being performed back to the styles originator. This is why patterns are so jealously guarded in China: they are the equivalent of the family silver!


Why such a long introduction? Because South Shaolin is unique in the world of Chinese martial arts. Being “martial” it is not surprising that styles are often created in times of violence and war, but no other style or family of styles can claim such a bloody and violent birth as the South Shaolin lineage.


There were actually not just one but three South Shaolin Temples, all located in different areas of Fujian Province:

The oldest was the Putian Temple, established in 557 AD, just 61 years after the mother temple in North China’s Henan Province.

The next was the Quanzhou Temple, established in the 9th century AD, after the Emperor of the Tang Dynasty sent a group of Shaolin monks south to protect the Fujianese coast from attacks by pirates.

The third Shaolin Temple was in Fuqing and was likely established at some point during the Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD)



History is confused about these three temples. It is not certain whether they existed all at the same time, or succeeded each other, or even which one of the three was the South Shaolin Temple immortalized in martial arts legend.


There is a good reason why this is so, for during the Qing Dynasty the South Shaolin Temple was destroyed so completely that not a single stone was left standing and the majority of historical records about it were burned. It can not even be verified when this took place: records are split between the dates 1674 and 1734, although the latter date is more probable.


Whenever it happened, the episode is one of the most important in the history of Chinese Martial Arts. It became a watershed, with styles created afterwards being distinctly different from all those that came before. The burning of the temple also entered folklore and became a subject of countless novels, plays and films. As such most people in the West, who know anything about Chinese Martial Arts, know about it (although they usually and mistakenly associate the burning with the Northern Temple on Songshan).


So why was the South Shaolin Temple burned down?


The reason has to do with invasion and rebellion and the all out war that was breaking out across the southern provinces of Guangdong and Fujian at that time.


Only a few decades prior, in 1644, China was at its lowest ebb. The Ming Dynasty that had ruled for three hundred years was weak, bloated and autocratic, the country was torn apart by rebellions and the last Emperor of the Ming committed suicide by hanging himself from a tree on a hill overlooking the Forbidden Palace. At this time China was invaded by the Manchu, a people whose homeland was to the North East of China’s traditional borders. It was in no condition to offer up any effective resistance against the invaders and within a few years most of China was under Manchu control – the Manchu Qing Dynasty began.


Only in the border provinces was there still resistance to the Manchu. Fujian, by virtue of its distance from the capital, its mountainous terrain and a long coast line, became the frontline in the resistance. At first this resistance was open, with the General Koxinga launching counterattacks against the Manchu strongholds further north, but by 1661, after suffering heavy defeats on the mainland, Koxinga retreated to Taiwan.


After his withdrawal resistance to the Manchu went underground and countless secret societies formed under the motto “Kill the Qing. Bring back the Ming.” Many of these societies had strong links with the South Shaolin Temple.


It is not surprising that the Shaolin Temple gave support to the rebels. In those days temples were political and military as well as religious institutions and Shaolin in particular had strong links to the Imperial Throne (ever since a thousand years previously a group of Shaolin monks saved the life of the second Emperor of the Tang Dynasty) and so it would be natural for the Temple to offer aid to remnants of the Ming Dynasty.


Here too there are contradicting stories. According to some, South Shaolin Temple offered protection to many rebel officers of the Ming, who enrolled in the temple as lay students after being defeated by the Qing. Other accounts say that after the establishment of the Qing Dynasty the monks at first tried to build bridges with the new Dynasty and even sent some of its fighters to support Qing troops in a campaign in the far west of China, but the only outcome of this was that the new masters of China became fearful of the temple’s power and influence.


Which ever is the case (and quite possibly the wily abbots were playing both sides at least in the beginning) the Manchu decided that the South Shaolin Temple was a threat to their rule and ordered for it to be burned and raised to the ground. Most of the monks the Manchu could lay their hands on were butchered. According to legend only five escaped – the five ancestors – though of course the open door nature of the Shaolin Temple meant that even if only five masters escaped on the night, there would have been hundreds around who had studied in the temple at some point before the destruction took place.


After the temple’s destruction, the survivors suddenly found themselves being driven underground, for the Manchu placed a prohibition on the open practice of martial arts. From this moment on martial arts in the South of China started to change and develop their own distinctive characteristics.


Demand for fighting skills was high in these dangerous times while at the same time enforced secrecy meant that there was less communication and cooperation between different masters across the province. In this environment hundreds of new styles were created, as each master was forced to set up on his or her own. Some of these styles, such as White Crane, Dog Style and the Five Ancestors Fist became widespread, gaining hundreds of followers. Others became closed family styles, transmitted in secrecy from father to son. This was far safer in a world where the mere act of practicing your style could get you into trouble with the Manchu authorities.


In general these new styles emphasised simplicity and efficiency of movement, coupled with high destructive power. A student would want to get to a point where he could do some damage as soon as possible in his training, not knowing when his life might depend upon it. Harsh foundation training or Gong Fu was a key part of each style, building up the body to the point where it could generate and handle maximum power fast. As the saying goes: “In Fujian Shaolin no move without use.”


Practising in secret had its own results. For one thing, traditional military weapons were no longer allowed (at least in the open), so farming and other everyday tools were put to good use and new patterns were developed specifically for them. Another result was a general shortening of patterns – as training was often done behind closed doors where space and time were at a premium.


The fighters of the 18th and 19th centuries in South China did not just have the resistance to the Manchu to contend with. This was a period of great hardship and famines, communal strife and religious cults. The Taiping Rebellion in the mid 19th century, to name but one, is estimated to have cost over 20 million lives.


It is not surprising therefore that so many of the best known styles of traditional wushu practised today have their origins in this period and draw their lineage ultimately to the South Shaolin Temple. It is purely the law of supply and demand, tough times make for the best fighters.


When you watch the videos released with this issue watch for the distinguishing features of the Southern Shaolin Styles: low powerful stances, fast and efficient arm movements, low kicks, a great emphasis on power generation and force spreading and by extension on breathing techniques, short, compact patterns. Then compare with a northern style, for example Chang Quan, to see the differences.

[brucereiter]

In my oral tradition, the original temple was very large, even larger than the northern temple, but was destroyed many centuries ago in war. When the monks came together to form a new temple, they split it into many small buildings and a series of homes, and this together appeared to be more like a village. It was still later on burned - not by enemies - but by the people of the temples themselves in order to avoid direct conflict with the warlords and emperor at the time.

Unfortunately, these traditions are sort of supporting themselves with their own flimsy paper columns, but the fact remains that the lineages had to come from somewhere. Never has my style's tradition been to say they came right out of the Shaolin temple, but yet we have an oddly large collection of Shaolin, Wudan, Hua, and Ermei shan material which was not gathered at those temples. This leads me to suspect that the lineage is very authentic, but also very distant from the temple, to the point that it's nearly forgotten.

Someone posed a question on here about the authenticity of styles claiming to be southern. My friend, if that's how you judge authenticity, you will never understand Shaolin Gung Fu, because it's the heart of the forms and the teachings that determine the authenticity, not the lineages.

hi shadolin,

hows it going. i read this post and thought i would offer an unpopular opinion in shaolin do.

-there may or may not have been a shaolin temple in southern china. not much evidence but a lot of legends.

-some of our (shaolin do) material may very well have come from the "fukien" shaolin temple.

-some of our material in my opinion is not possible to have been learned by su kong tai jin as it was not developed until after his death.

-jiang rong qiao's "original form pakua chang" aka classical pakua was developed by jiang in the mid 1900's. how could it have been learned by su kong tai jin? the time frame does not match. this form was however taught widely in china and in west java (bandung is in west java i think)

our yang 64 tai chi chuan is another example.
it is my favorite style that i have learned and the one i have put most effort into.

i think it is a modified cheng man ching style. i find it highly unlikely that it was developed until at least the 1920's which in my opinion makes it not possible for su kong tai jin to have learned.

-i will only refer to these 2 styles for this conversation to try to keep things more clear.

-these 2 styles are by most accounts in shaolin do said to have been handed down from su kong tai jin to ie chang ming at fukien temple and in the "mountains" to sin kwang the who ie chang ming taught in bandung ... ... etc ...

-it is implied that sin kwang the had learned these forms before 1964 and it is implied if not directly stated that ie chang ming learned them from su kong tai jin.

time frames do not add up. especially for jrq pakua since it is easy to verify jrq information from a several sources. so how is this explained?

-should we shaolin do students and young teachers such as myself keep adding to the confusion by retelling stories that simply cant be true? i think not.

-i feel it is a duty of any dedicated shaolin do student or teacher to understand factual history vs. legend and to present actual facts or clearly state when a story is a legend/myth.

shaolin do people please offer your opinions. anyone else please add any constructive comments.

[tattooedmonk]

well put.I agree.

[shadowlin]

Oh I think it is very obvious that Su Kong did not learn all these more modern forms and then taught them to Ie chang Ming. He may have learned one or two, but frankly, the problem lies with GM Ie, who traveled for nobody knows how long and quite truthfully probably put his own spin on the forms he taught. Then there's the problem of GM sin remembering them from 40 years ago. It's not like he practiced Golden Leopard or Liu Hsing since he learned it. So there are bound to be minor changes. But his memory for detail is still pretty outstanding.
As for our yang 64, I don't think it is a cheng man ching version. I've been watching his version and I think more likely GM Ie learned from a contemporary of Cheng's teacher, from Yang's grandson, and I think he likely did this overseas or out of china.
Chen 83 is another great example. It's clearly Chen style but it doesn't look like anything they are teaching these days. I submit the possibility that GM Ie learned it outside of his original teachings, perhaps not even in China.

There's simply a lot that we don't know about that man, and I suspect there's a lot GM sin didn't know about him either, but for sure he's not divulging everything he knows because he doesn't have to.

As for the existence of the fukien temple, I simply have no doubt it existed.
Have you gotten a copy of the Shaolin Grandmaster's text? Interestingly enough, they aren't even in our lineage, but they date from their oral traditions that the Fukien temple wasn't completely destroyed until 1901. That is perfectly timed with our oral tradition, and with some of these issues. I think 1901 is as accurate as we can get. But it simply doesn't make sense to say something so influential with so many stories never existed. You know no one beleived Troy existed and sure enough, using oral traditions and the Illiad, it was found by one man who refused to believe the stories had no historical account. That's what we're dealing with here, except the trail isn't so cold.
Also another good example are the terracotta warriors - legends until they found them. Now they think they've found less than half.

[MasterKiller]

Have you gotten a copy of the Shaolin Grandmaster's text? Pretty much every Shaolin historian has laughed at this book.

[shadowlin]

I don't think you or I will see eye to eye MasterKiller, do you plan to antagonize me until I leave or until I just ignore you? I propose instead you be a gentleman, and we can have a friendly debate, hopefully a dialogue. So far all you've impressed upon me is that you like to argue with anyone no matter what. I don't have time for arguments. Let's move past this unnecessary and pointless bickering and start having constructive dialogues shall we?

Now...
You can say every historian says it's laughable, but I don't see a list of names or articles by these historians, so I think I'll keep my opinions until I see some proof. The burden of proof is on you to show me or anyone else why this book is invalid. Have you written a book on the subjects at hand?

[MasterKiller]

I don't think you or I will see eye to eye MasterKiller, do you plan to antagonize me until I leave or until I just ignore you? I propose instead you be a gentleman, and we can have a friendly debate, hopefully a dialogue. So far all you've impressed upon me is that you like to argue with anyone no matter what. I don't have time for arguments. Let's move past this unnecessary and pointless bickering and start having constructive dialogues shall we?

Now...
You can say every historian says it's laughable, but I don't see a list of names or articles by these historians, so I think I'll keep my opinions until I see some proof. The burden of proof is on you to show me or anyone else why this book is invalid. Have you written a book on the subjects at hand?

You posted in the thread where everyone here ripped it apart. Obviously, you know what I'm talking about.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32279&highlight=grandmaster%27s+text&page=11

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pretty much every Shaolin historian has laughed at this book.

You mean it wasn't a "tongue-in-cheek" book ?
:eek:

[shadowlin]

I don't see any list of comprehensive reviews. I see a bunch of opinions. Valid opinions one and all. I have complaints about the book, too, but that doesn't mean that 100% of the book is rubbish.
[It's a step in the right direction, but that's my opinion.]

I'm just curious, do you have a comprehensive review that completely debunks the book, or do you just agree with the consensus on this forum? Because in a court of law, you need proof beyond a shadow of a doubt to convict, and that's what I want to see.

If you don't then my points given above about the southern temple still stand as my opinion and they are as valid as anyone else's because I don't think any of us lived at that time. I'd rather err on the side of being a bit optimistic than on the side of denial because of lack of conclusive proof.
I don't need a photograph of the old temple to know it existed. Some may.

I'll refer you to another thought about oral traditions. It was in recent years that scientists working in different fields combined knowledge of geography, anthropology, and archaeology to determine the possibility of a comet striking Earth 4000 years ago in the Indian Ocean near Madagascar. The significance isn't that they've proved 100% it happened - though they have a crater, tsunami wash shelfs containing fossils from the bottom of the sea, and microscopic shrapnel found in craters.
The significance is that they used oral traditions to figure out where to start looking, just the same way scientists found Troy.

I'm saying that there are too many oral traditions confirming the existence, plus the locals, and the archaeological findings... I think that is significant.

You can hate this book, villify it, and crucify it, but it's still an oral tradition with some validation. That's why I mention it here.

If you do have an article that completely annihilates this book, please post it or send it to me, I'd love to read it. I collect these kinds of things.

[brucereiter]

Oh I think it is very obvious that Su Kong did not learn all these more modern forms and then taught them to Ie chang Ming. He may have learned one or two, but frankly, the problem lies with GM Ie, who traveled for nobody knows how long and quite truthfully probably put his own spin on the forms he taught. Then there's the problem of GM sin remembering them from 40 years ago.
the being "obvious" is part of the problem. the written and oral history passed down by sin kwang the and most shaolin do teachers says the fukien temple had all of shaolin do's styles/forms and that su kong tai jin learned all of the stuff in our system there and then taught all of that material to ie chang ming who is dsaid to have taught all of that material to sin kwnag the.

so what is the truth?

why are mistruths being told?

the problem does not lie with ie chang ming, the problem lies with sin kwang the and the way he has presented his history.

i am ok if he learned any/some/most of his material from notes/books/videos or where ever.

i am not fine with being told for example that jiang rong qiao pakua was taught in fukien shaolin temple and taught to su kong tai jin ... ie chang ming ... sin kwang the.




It's not like he practiced Golden Leopard or Liu Hsing since he learned it. So there are bound to be minor changes. But his memory for detail is still pretty outstanding.


it is learned or relearned from notes in my opinion.



As for our yang 64, I don't think it is a cheng man ching version.

i said i think it is a modified version of cheng man chings tai chi chuan.
look through the history of any and every yang style system/family/lineage/group,
you will only find 2 forms with the 37/38 movements and sequence ... "cmc" and "yang 64"

yang 64 has some differences ... hands wave in clouds, hang the lotus and a few other things ...

if you can reference others i would like to hear.



I've been watching his version and I think more likely GM Ie learned from a contemporary of Cheng's teacher, from Yang's grandson, and I think he likely did this overseas or out of china.


i dont think that is true.
which yang are you talking about, cheng fu? and which grandson? are you talking about zheng do? that would be very unlikely at that time i dont think any of the yang family lived outside of china(i do not know that for fact though)

it is very likely that ie chang ming learned this form in Indonesia from someone who was in the same line as cheng man ching.



Chen 83 is another great example. It's clearly Chen style but it doesn't look like anything they are teaching these days. I submit the possibility that GM Ie learned it outside of his original teachings, perhaps not even in China.

have here is more problem sin kwang the claims that "all" was given to him by ie chang ming and all was given to ie chang ming by su kong tai jin and su kong tai jin learned all from fukien shaolin temple where many types of martial arts were "preserved".

it was not until the 1920's that chen fake taught the chen xin jia style of tai chi chuan.



There's simply a lot that we don't know about that man, and I suspect there's a lot GM sin didn't know about him either, but for sure he's not divulging everything he knows because he doesn't have to.

but he(sin kwang the) is in my opinion telling history that is not true.



As for the existence of the fukien temple, I simply have no doubt it existed.
Have you gotten a copy of the Shaolin Grandmaster's text? Interestingly enough, they aren't even in our lineage, but they date from their oral traditions that the Fukien temple wasn't completely destroyed until 1901. That is perfectly timed with our oral tradition, and with some of these issues. I think 1901 is as accurate as we can get. But it simply doesn't make sense to say something so influential with so many stories never existed. You know no one beleived Troy existed and sure enough, using oral traditions and the Illiad, it was found by one man who refused to believe the stories had no historical account. That's what we're dealing with here, except the trail isn't so cold.
Also another good example are the terracotta warriors - legends until they found them. Now they think they've found less than half.

temple or no temple does not really matter since much of the history is not true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This could all be a case of misrememberence.

[brucereiter]

This could all be a case of misrememberence.

of who misremembering what?

[sanjuro_ronin]

of who misremembering what?

Oral history, it seems that things can get misremeberd when passed down via oral history only, heck that happens with written one so we can only imagine how bad it is with oral history.

[shadowlin]

Hey, you and I are on the same page. I agree with 99% of what you said there.
(including the idea that Ie learned 64 overseas, from either a contemporary of Cheng (your idea) or of his teacher (my idea) I don't have any proof yet, just suspicions, mind you)

But let's be fair. GM Sin doesn't really teach the history... at all. It's taught by his students who more or less just absorbed and retold verbatim what little he gave to them. In the case of some they really embellished it or added to it. But honestly most know very little about his story. If you've ever seen At the feet of the Grandmaster, you'd know it's pretty much the same stories as in the SDA manual, he's not telling anything in addition.
Does the fault lie with him? Yes, but only because he's the leader. But he isn't running around making a big scene out of it. I don't know if he even cares that people are curious. If you ask him, he won't comment on it. It's just not important to him. He's always been capable of producing a much more 'legitimately' taught school, if he felt like it. But he's very secretive, and yet very gentlemanly. It's rude to bring up questions of these sorts to a man that has been so generous. It just isn't done. He much prefers to talk about Hollywood.

Also, he absolutely re-learned all these materials from the notes he has. All the more frustrating to me because it's questionable how much is lost, but therein lies some of the authenticity, too. And he doesn't mind it. He doesn't sweat some of the details, and will point out some of the ones he thinks are important. Like he'll randomly know the difference between all the different "Climb the mountains" or if you hit someone with the flat side of a sword! Random.

I'll tell you a couple of things about this subject.
First is that he has personally told me it takes him many weeks of hard work to use the notes to re-learn things. He said that one road of the Golden Leopard alone took 60 hours of reviewing notes, charts, and literature of the time period. There's a lot of pressure there as well as some sleeplessness, etc...

Second: I used to be much more doubtful about things until I took that seminar (and another wherein he forgot part of the form but was doing it subconsciously). In the second road there is a posture called "Leopard calls to the prey"
Now, no one - I mean no one - knew that sound. Consequently GM Sin is cawing like a bird and we're all thinking, "how do cats call to the prey?"
It wasn't until much later that I found a real media video that actually played that sound. I can't get it to play now because of real media software changes, and it's not on the web anymore, but I'm willing to send the file if you pm me your email address. At any rate... leopards really do call to the prey to scare prey out of places hard to attack to.
The point here is... he's teaching material that has hidden info in it that even he doesn't remember. And the notes are in chinese, they are old poetry, and it's simply authentic. No doubt about it once you've had it.

I do have problems with the way things are done, but he is the Grandmaster, and it's not my place to go to him and say "hey this history doesn't make sense to me"
It's my job to be courteous and supportive because he is so generous an individual and he really doesn't care about these little details. It's a very Chinese attitude about history, but what can you do?
Only one answer: do what I do and try to listen to others and their traditions and see where truth lays - somewhere in the middle and off to the side a bit.

But yeah, there's no way that some of this stuff came out of the southern temple. However, I still feel most of it did. I'd say somewhere above 95% of it. But only maybe 80% of what has been taught, and even most of that is not originally southern, just collected there.


There's another thing, if you want to get down to it. I haven't figured out why he's taught out things so randomly. I do know that he never finished teaching the immortals because at the time no one could perform them, but that's not the case now. But he is teaching such treasured material and yet all these systems are not completely taught out. I am literally afraid they will be lost.
I just can't figure out why he only taught 4 Shantung Black Tigers, two golden tigers, 2 northern mantis forms, 4 southern mantis, 5 immortals (out of 18!!) 2 Chen forms, and many other things.
Maybe it's just time. Maybe he hasn't yet had the time to re-teach himself everything to re-teach out....
I don't know, but that may be a question I work up courage to ask someday. but questioning him about the Southern temple and what Ie learned where is not only rude, it's pointless. I'd much rather get context through research. For better or for worse.

[brucereiter]

Hey, you and I are on the same page. I agree with 99% of what you said there.
(including the idea that Ie learned 64 overseas, from either a contemporary of Cheng (your idea) or of his teacher (my idea) I don't have any proof yet, just suspicions, mind you)

But let's be fair. GM Sin doesn't really teach the history... at all. It's taught by his students who more or less just absorbed and retold verbatim what little he gave to them. In the case of some they really embellished it or added to it. But honestly most know very little about his story. If you've ever seen At the feet of the Grandmaster, you'd know it's pretty much the same stories as in the SDA manual, he's not telling anything in addition.
Does the fault lie with him? Yes, but only because he's the leader. But he isn't running around making a big scene out of it. I don't know if he even cares that people are curious. If you ask him, he won't comment on it. It's just not important to him.

he allows it to be taught though.

[tattooedmonk]

in this article he states that GMSKTD learned over 140 weapons forms and over 200 empty hand forms, that totals 340+ forms. 340 is far short from 900+.

I understand that 900 is over 340 but why such a small guess-timation if he knew far more than that??

I would have to agree that it appears that a great deal of the material was added after GMSKTD.

I also believe that more forms were added by GMSin. I know for a fact that a few of the forms that we practice in the curriculum were created by GMSin

To tell the truth it does not matter that they all collected material over those three generation of GM , or that they even made forms up, but I think the problem lies in the lack of substantial and factual information to substantiate any of it.

[brucereiter]

grandmaster the' said the following in one of his dvd's

"by the time i get in to 13 years old i was fortunate enough to have a private lesson with grandmaster ie and that started studying 8 hours a day 7 days a week."

"by the time i am 20 years old i have mastered 900 empty hand and weapon forms representing over 100 different fighting systems and became grand master at the age of 25"

how are we to understand this? it is from sin kwang the's own lips.

[sean_stonehart]

Careful Bruce... you're starting to sound like me... :eek:

[tattooedmonk]

In another article by the same author it states that "the tablet was erected to commemorate his visit in June 1992"

That is it.

This a lot different than the tablet was erected by the Shaolin Temple and all the other business, right?

I believe GMS is only responsible for clearing things up. He is not at fault for what others have blown out of proportion. If he has embelished the stories or made them up, then this should come out as well.

All I would need is an apology and/ or an explanation.

You also have to remember GMS was a kid when he started in Ie Chang ming's school and many of the stories are just passed down to GMS.

I also understand it is GMS 's resposibility to to establish whether these stories were true or not before he started telling them, etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes lies get told for so long even the liar and ill-informed start to believe them.

[tattooedmonk]

grandmaster the' said the following in one of his dvd's

"by the time i get in to 13 years old i was fortunate enough to have a private lesson with grandmaster ie and that started studying 8 hours a day 7 days a week."

"by the time i am 20 years old i have mastered 900 empty hand and weapon forms representing over 100 different fighting systems and became grand master at the age of 25"

how are we to understand this? it is from sin kwang the's own lips.What are your theories on all of this???

[shadowlin]

fellas, one at a time, please.



All I would need is an apology and/ or an explanation.


No offense, friend, but honestly I wish you could hear yourself. Your asking a man that doesn't even know or care about yours and my concerns - expecting even - that he should reply. That doesn't make sense and furthermore, it's simply way out of line for us. That's like telling the abbot of Shaolin to explain and apologize for his behavior. Apologize to who? to you?

When you're with someone of that kind of karma in life, you don't insult them, you learn from them. I don't spend my time with GM Sin complaining about what he has or hasn't done for the art. It's just... ludicrous to assert he should apologize. He hasn't anything to apologize for. If your feelings are hurt that you think he personally lied to you, I guess that's a tough thing. I can't apologize for him and he wouldn't be sorry anyhow - and wouldn't understand your issues at any rate. He only knows what he knows and what he was told by his teacher.

Now, moving on. I will challenge the statement that he made anything up that he states is traditional. He and his brother did make up the sparring techniques and some lesser stuff, and they did squish 108 techniques into 30 short kata, but that's not like making up pakua forms or meteor fist.
I can tell you he didn't make those up, but I can't prove that to you without giving you anything (and I'm not giving anyone anything!). I just know it because of things I've seen. That's my business, though, and I'm not bringing it in here.
I'm of the opinion that if anyone made any forms up, it'd be Grandmaster Ie, but he was such an iconic man, anything he made up I'd be glad to have... the man was flat out bad@$$.

At any rate, you and I agree about some issues, but the idea that he owes you or anyone an apology is absurd. Is it unfortunate the history of shaolin-do? Maybe to some, not to others. But he doesn't owe anyone an apology and I wouldn't hold my breath expecting one. That's silly. While we discuss it, he's out near LA working on his movie, he doesn't have time for this level of bull.

I don't feel the need to address the 900 forms thing because it's been addressed before and it's being distorted anyhow. I'll just say he doesn't know that many forms now. no one does. Not even EM Leonard remembers everything. They review it when they need it for teaching purposes, and that's just how it goes.

At any rate, we're kind of off-topic. If there's nothing else about the southern temple then I'll move on.

[David Jamieson]

The verdict is still out.

I would add that it is very difficult for an individual to accept that they've been taken for a ride. Even more difficult for them to say it. To waste so much time and to have it pointed out that you are being foolish is a hard apple to swallow.

I can dig that, and will leave it at that.

In the meantime, archaeologically and historically speaking, there is and always has been only one shaolin temple, and it's still there in Henan.

the new prc produced plastic replica in the south is merely there to satisfy the whims of people looking to buy a fantasy and to fill the pockets of the prc clerks who sell tours there.

I reiterate, telling stories and making stuff up does a huge disservice to actually trying to find anything out. In this respect, some people in the big world of cma are most culpable.

[brucereiter]

What are your theories on all of this???

ttm,

my opinion is ie chang ming learned a body of southern shaolin material before moving to bandung.

my opinion is that while in bandung ie chang ming learned some ima stuff like jiang rong qiao original pakua and yang 64 tai chi chuan ...

my opinion is that ie chang ming taught sin kwang the about 100 forms.

my opinion is that sin kwang the has not mastered "900 empty hand and weapon forms representing over 100 different fighting systems"

my opinion is that much of the ima stuff could not have been learned the way and when he has said it was.

my opinion is that in 1992 in bandung gmt was given a case full of notes about many forms and styles and that this is what he teaches from and what makes up the 900 forms.

my opinion is some of what sin kwang the says is very true. i have a dvd of him talking about the 24 tai chi form and he says it was created after 1949 for example ...

my opinion is i would not want to fight sin kwang the because he is a fantastic martial artist and in great condition even now.

my opinion is that i value much of what i have been taught and learned from this system.

[David Jamieson]

here's the spin.

test your stuff.

i can't think of a single old schooler who is even half for real that doesn't make that statement.


secondly, the stuff that doesn't work for you in the tests, well toss it, keeping it even for the sake of posterity is a waste of time because you have to practice it to retain it, there really is no other way about it with martial arts. It can't be kept in your head alone, your body has to know it as well and if your body doesn't know it, then you can't share it anyway, so, toss it.

this is my opinion only.

[tattooedmonk]

fellas, one at a time, please.



No offense, friend, but honestly I wish you could hear yourself. Your asking a man that doesn't even know or care about yours and my concerns - expecting even - that he should reply. That doesn't make sense and furthermore, it's simply way out of line for us. That's like telling the abbot of Shaolin to explain and apologize for his behavior. Apologize to who? to you?

When you're with someone of that kind of karma in life, you don't insult them, you learn from them. I don't spend my time with GM Sin complaining about what he has or hasn't done for the art. It's just... ludicrous to assert he should apologize. He hasn't anything to apologize for. If your feelings are hurt that you think he personally lied to you, I guess that's a tough thing. I can't apologize for him and he wouldn't be sorry anyhow - and wouldn't understand your issues at any rate. He only knows what he knows and what he was told by his teacher.

Now, moving on. I will challenge the statement that he made anything up that he states is traditional. He and his brother did make up the sparring techniques and some lesser stuff, and they did squish 108 techniques into 30 short kata, but that's not like making up pakua forms or meteor fist.
I can tell you he didn't make those up, but I can't prove that to you without giving you anything (and I'm not giving anyone anything!). I just know it because of things I've seen. That's my business, though, and I'm not bringing it in here.
I'm of the opinion that if anyone made any forms up, it'd be Grandmaster Ie, but he was such an iconic man, anything he made up I'd be glad to have... the man was flat out bad@$$.

At any rate, you and I agree about some issues, but the idea that he owes you or anyone an apology is absurd. Is it unfortunate the history of shaolin-do? Maybe to some, not to others. But he doesn't owe anyone an apology and I wouldn't hold my breath expecting one. That's silly. While we discuss it, he's out near LA working on his movie, he doesn't have time for this level of bull.

I don't feel the need to address the 900 forms thing because it's been addressed before and it's being distorted anyhow. I'll just say he doesn't know that many forms now. no one does. Not even EM Leonard remembers everything. They review it when they need it for teaching purposes, and that's just how it goes.

At any rate, we're kind of off-topic. If there's nothing else about the southern temple then I'll move on. If you read all that I have posted on this subject you would not take it the way you are.

I do not expect a reply or anything for that matter. If I wanted that I would call him or go to his house or whatever.

Anything I have posted about SD is with the utmost respect. You can only be insulted if you accept the insult.

I already stated numerous times that he was a kid when he studied with GMICM and that he is just passing on what he was told.

To many it is irresponsible to tell stories as if they were a matter of fact without having a clue as to whether they are true or not. Once aain not saying he did or did not.

He would owe us an explanation if it was found out that what he has told us and what he has allowed others to tell about the history of the art and himself is a lie.

I can say this as a long time student and personal associate of GMSin's for many years.

I am not saying that he has or has not lied or embelished or passed on mis- information , I just think it is his responsibility to clear it up. it is his school and oraganization and if he wants to have bigger , more reputible schools then the BULLSH!T needs to be cleared up.

He owes it to all of us.

Building a life around a lie, no matter how good it is, still means that your life is a lie.

[shadowlin]

If you read all that I have posted on this subject you would not take it the way you are.

He owes it to all of us.

Building a life around a lie, no matter how good it is, still means that your life is a lie.

I'm not insulted friend, you are entitled to your opinion. I just don't think it's healthy for a student to feel like he owes it to us.

If anything, he owes it to the art. The art is more important than my or your petty wishes. If it improved the art, then he owes that. But if he does nothing, hey, there's nothing to be done about it, except what you can do: be the best shaolin practitioner possible and influence the future one student at a time.

Do I wish he'd come forth with all this? Yeah, sure. I'd love to see more about GMICM and GMSKTJ. But he is not only not thinking about it, it's beneath his level of concern. He just doesn't pay attention to it. So why feel like he ought to do this? It's just unconventional.

[tattooedmonk]

I'm not insulted friend, you are entitled to your opinion. I just don't think it's healthy for a student to feel like he owes it to us.

If anything, he owes it to the art. The art is more important than my or your petty wishes. If it improved the art, then he owes that. But if he does nothing, hey, there's nothing to be done about it, except what you can do: be the best shaolin practitioner possible and influence the future one student at a time.

Do I wish he'd come forth with all this? Yeah, sure. I'd love to see more about GMICM and GMSKTJ. But he is not only not thinking about it, it's beneath his level of concern. He just doesn't pay attention to it. So why feel like he ought to do this? It's just unconventional.Like I said IF it was found out that he was lying or making stuff up then he would owe an explanation.

I did not say he did or did not.

The art is made up of the material being taught , the teachers and the students. So we are part of the art, so that would mean he would owe it to us, because without the art and the students he would not be the teacher.

As for petty wishes , you may have them but I do not. I was refering to the betterment of the school and the art.

I believe that if GMS wants the art to survive than he needs to be forthright with his students about what is and what is not and straighten up any misunderstood and miscommunicated words that are stated by the instructors and the students.

The school would be that much bigger and less people would talk sh!t about it if he did .

Beneath his level of concern?? I disagree.

and I was not talking about insulting you I was making reference to what you said, " my request was insult to him" , that is why I said, "you can not be insulted unless you accept the insult".

[bodhi warrior]

Hey guys, let's not forget their were other teachers at the school in Indonesia the are associated with sin and hiang: jie shou fu, liu su peng, te tju(sp?), and someone else whose name escapes me.

[Shaolinlueb]

the wing tsun sifu benny (i forget last name) i think wrote an article about it for kfo in the magazine a couple years ago. sorry if this is a repost i jsut read the first page.

[B-Rad]

Since there's an Indonesian school, why doesn't anyone communicate with them? Shaolin-Do people seem to like to come up with a lot of crackpot theories without making a serious attempt to go to the source :p

[tattooedmonk]

here's the spin.

test your stuff.

i can't think of a single old schooler who is even half for real that doesn't make that statement.


secondly, the stuff that doesn't work for you in the tests, well toss it, keeping it even for the sake of posterity is a waste of time because you have to practice it to retain it, there really is no other way about it with martial arts. It can't be kept in your head alone, your body has to know it as well and if your body doesn't know it, then you can't share it anyway, so, toss it.

this is my opinion only.It all works you just have to know where , when and how to use it.

[bodhi warrior]

Since there's an Indonesian school, why doesn't anyone communicate with them? Shaolin-Do people seem to like to come up with a lot of crackpot theories without making a serious attempt to go to the source :p

They have. The school is closed now, I believe, but there were a couple of groups of students that have visited there years ago.

[GeneChing]

Surely you've all read The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49464) by now, right? If you haven't, it wouldn't be wise to discuss Shaolin history until you do. Anyway, the last time I corresponded with Professor Shahar, he said he was turning his attention to Southern Shaolin legends. I'm not sure if he has an entire book to put out, but surely there will be an extraordinary paper. Until I see what he has, I'm going to remain silent on my opinions about Southern Shaolin. ;)

[B-Rad]

They have. The school is closed now, I believe, but there were a couple of groups of students that have visited there years ago.
Groups led by Sin The like the China visits (basically, tourist vacations) or independent study groups/students who actually speak the language? What happened to the students/teachers that were there before? Did they talk to any of them?

It seems odd that people constantly speculate on what originally came from where, even who was who's father/grandfather (whatever :-P), what photos are real, what this guy's name meant, etc. when you could go ask people that were training this system before any of the U.S. students. If I'm curious about a teacher's background, and I want a different perspective aside from what he's written down in his own book/told me himself, then next logical step is to talk to the people that were there before.

[B-Rad]

BTW, looks like a good book Gene. I might have to pick it up! Not sure how I missed it before :)

[GeneChing]

However, we've been discussing its development here and in the magazine for some time now. It's a true must-read for anyone who wants to discuss Shaolin history.

[brucereiter]

Groups led by Sin The like the China visits (basically, tourist vacations) or independent study groups/students who actually speak the language? What happened to the students/teachers that were there before? Did they talk to any of them?

It seems odd that people constantly speculate on what originally came from where, even who was who's father/grandfather (whatever :-P), what photos are real, what this guy's name meant, etc. when you could go ask people that were training this system before any of the U.S. students. If I'm curious about a teacher's background, and I want a different perspective aside from what he's written down in his own book/told me himself, then next logical step is to talk to the people that were there before.


hi b-rad,

in the 1992 my teacher along with a large group of people went to bandung.
on this trip he met and did push hands with some of the students who were in some way associated with ie chang ming ... i have posted this information before ...

here is part of a note from my teacher to me regarding the 1992 bandung trip.
>>
There is some talk about the 1992 Trip to Indonesia. I think I gave you some background on this before. I attached two photos from the trip. One is from the demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor. In the demo photo the group is doing ICC #3- the guy in the back is Rey Cerezo and the girl in the middle is Ellyn Shea. The image of the ticket is for that demo/banquet. It was entirely sold out. I don't have lots of names but I could make some up. I met several of Master Sin's colleagues in Bandung - one majored in Drunken style and another was something else. The name I do recall was the Tai Chi guy who I did push hands with him and his senior student. His name (forgive the spelling) was Chi Tung. At the end of the demo when we did the obligatory exchange of small gifts Chi Tung lined up everyone in the demo - except me - and had the Indonesian Shaolin students (there was no "Shaolin-Do" at that time) put the gift (it's like a tie clasp) on each of the American students. He then had me come up separately and he put the tie clasp thing on me to signify that he and I were "equals" and that we were both below Master Sin.

The other photo is in front of Master Ie's home. Master Sin is in the middle with Master Ie's adopted son and family. I am on the far right of the photo, Master David Theroff is the guy ****hest to the left. We had earlier that day visited Master Sin's parents and his brother Sang's home.
<<

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo-Ticket001.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg

[David Jamieson]

It all works you just have to know where , when and how to use it.

you never know where, when or how you'll have to use it.
Otherwise, it is just a fitness regimen, unless of course you're a pro fighter or ameteur fighter, in which case it's easier to know the where when and how stuff. :)

[sha0lin1]

Surely you've all read The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49464) by now, right? If you haven't, it wouldn't be wise to discuss Shaolin history until you do. Anyway, the last time I corresponded with Professor Shahar, he said he was turning his attention to Southern Shaolin legends. I'm not sure if he has an entire book to put out, but surely there will be an extraordinary paper. Until I see what he has, I'm going to remain silent on my opinions about Southern Shaolin. ;)

I am anxiously awaiting this book, can't wait to read it. Barne's and Nobles says it is not coming out until the end of March. If it is out already where can I get a copy?

[Vajramusti]

Amazon.com should be able to ship you a copy within 3-5 days.
About $45 plus shipping.

joy chaudhuri

[sha0lin1]

Amazon.com should be able to ship you a copy within 3-5 days.
About $45 plus shipping.

joy chaudhuri


Thanks for the information!

[tattooedmonk]

hi b-rad,

in the 1992 my teacher along with a large group of people went to bandung.
on this trip he met and did push hands with some of the students who were in some way associated with ie chang ming ... i have posted this information before ...

here is part of a note from my teacher to me regarding the 1992 bandung trip.
>>
There is some talk about the 1992 Trip to Indonesia. I think I gave you some background on this before. I attached two photos from the trip. One is from the demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor. In the demo photo the group is doing ICC #3- the guy in the back is Rey Cerezo and the girl in the middle is Ellyn Shea. The image of the ticket is for that demo/banquet. It was entirely sold out. I don't have lots of names but I could make some up. I met several of Master Sin's colleagues in Bandung - one majored in Drunken style and another was something else. The name I do recall was the Tai Chi guy who I did push hands with him and his senior student. His name (forgive the spelling) was Chi Tung. At the end of the demo when we did the obligatory exchange of small gifts Chi Tung lined up everyone in the demo - except me - and had the Indonesian Shaolin students (there was no "Shaolin-Do" at that time) put the gift (it's like a tie clasp) on each of the American students. He then had me come up separately and he put the tie clasp thing on me to signify that he and I were "equals" and that we were both below Master Sin.

The other photo is in front of Master Ie's home. Master Sin is in the middle with Master Ie's adopted son and family. I am on the far right of the photo, Master David Theroff is the guy ****hest to the left. We had earlier that day visited Master Sin's parents and his brother Sang's home.
<<

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo-Ticket001.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg****, I have not seen a lot of those people in forever. Probably because most of them are not around anymore.

[GeneChing]

Maybe Paris Hilton will stay there and train. ;)

Dec. 28, 2012, 9:00 a.m. EST
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