Internal punches?? How are they different??

[Kristoffer]

How are they different from 'external' punches? How do u train them and what makes it internal? :confused:

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Repulsive Monkey]

because you issue Chi with the punch, and it is done with the muscles being relaxed (but not collapsed). If the muscles are tensed up then you are using physical force and will impede the issuing of Chi, therefore one resorts to Li instead. The use of Li is external, the use of Chi is predominantly internal. To train for internal punches one must learn internal methodology of relaxing and directing the Chi. Alignment, intent and thirdly breathing are the 3 major principles for getting the Chi. However, first and foremost a knowledgable teacher is the first and most important step before all these.
Internal punches, by my understanding, can illict more damage than an external punch, and create chronic long-lasting harm if issued correctly. It does what its called , creates internal damage by issuing the Chi deep into organs and deep tissues. Sometimes just relaxing and takingh a day off will not correct the damage done, it is usally necessary to see an internal therapist or internal martial artist to get the correct treatment to dislodge the embedded Chi. It has been known for untreated attacks to become terminal and cause death.

[Kristoffer]

When we punch (in my external style of kf), we use the hip and throw out the arm. (relaxed) precisly before you hit the mark/opponent/tree/whatever, you tense the the arm. And as quick as u pull it in, relaxed. Like a stone in a rope sorta.

So this is external? How is the internal punch? Relaxed ALL THE TIME? dont get it,, sorry. :(

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Kaitain(UK)]

very hard to explain - there are two aspects as I see it, the mechanical movement and the intention:

I kind of 'fall' into the punch to rotate my waist against my hip, which in turn fires my arm forwards - if you think of a whip action, when it makes the connection you are actually pulling the handle back towards you. When you connect the hip is pulling away whilst the waist is still travelling forwards. If you can't segment your hips from your waist you won't be able to do this. This is the most obvious difference between internal and external - the waist and hip are connected (move as a unit) for most external stylists.

Imagine a kids spinning top - you press the central axle down and it starts spinning. My spine is the central axle - as I sink I rotate my waist and my arms are just manifestations of that energy - there's no power coming from the arm at all.

I'll try and talk about intent but it's harder to get across - what I'm trying to do is transer 'juice' (energy, electricity, power, whatever) down my arm when I punch. Any muscular tension in my arm prevents this happening so I have to have relaxed muscles - the punch goes off like a grenade. A sudden tension (bad word though) I suppose you could call it, which is gone as quickly as it appears. For a split second my whole body is stretched out (when it contacts), then I relax again and feel a weird oscillation through my body as the energy I didn't manage to get out disperses. This is the other difference - an externalist explodes through the target with tension (a 'snap') that doesn't immediately disappear, internally it is so fleeting you might not see it - you'd just hear the 'HA' exhalation as it goes off.

It's pretty hard to get right and you have to be real careful training - as my Sifu put it - 'You wouldn't put household volts through bell wire and expect the wiring to hold up'. What he means is you have to train hard to get your wiring in place or you can really mess yourself up.

Bit of a wordy explanation (and a bit romanticised I confess) but that's how I differentiate the two (I've trained both now and I know which I prefer)

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kristoffer]

thanks, it has given me a lot to think about.

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[les paul]

To add to Kaitain response: much of power is generated through your root. External styles usally fight from the balls of their feet. External styles ignores much(but not all) of the power avalible from the root. This is not the way in internal styles. By using the root (ground force) we are able to strike with considerable force with little or no distance between the attacking limb and the target. This is one of the ways of knowing if your application is done correctly using internal principles.

For example: Xingyiquan's "Beng quan" a practioner is able to perform not one, but two strikes that are just as powewrfull as an external reverse punch. By rooting while storing then releasing the energy, two sucsesive attacks, come forth. Beng quan's advantage is in the fact that the reset time isn't there. Nor is the practioner commited if the first attack misses. Also, both attacks can be launch with full power only inches away from the target.

The key ability in all this is in how to root. Learning how to connect to the ground while storing energy in your legs, hips, spine, shoulders and then finally bringing it to the arms. The twisting ground force travels up your body then explodes on to the target. "Sung" is the key.

"I left out the use of chi, because all that is going on too and I thought Kaitain discribed it best"


This technique isn't exclusive to Xingyiquan, all internal arts have ground force and use it extentsivly in many different ways.



Paul
Michigan

[TheBigToad]

LOL!

First go see a good teacher if you have one. Its hard to say exactly how and what an internal punch is depending on if its 1 of the 5 different striking method of Xingyiquan alone all internal and all different.

Without getting into this Chi non sense what happens during an internal strike is usually this:

The bio-kinetic principles (how the body moves) are set up so the strike like a wave energy or cracking of a whip.

This force will actually push the water out of the cells in your body, tearing them and killing them and the kinetic energy (force of created by movement) is such that it travels beyond the place of impact and continues to push water and fluid out of cells and organs.. not as cool sounding as "embedded Chi" :rolleyes: but able to do some serious damage and a little realistic.

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

[virus fist]

There are many ways to look at this,when you mention the famous words,Internal and External MA.

There are different types of internal strikes .

Some of them are:

Long Power,the well known Tai Chi push that people fly way is one type of Jing,
Sharp Power ,this one will stay inside your body and explode,creating serious damage,(good for the organs).

Normally with external power the damage will be more external ,( equally effective and painfull when hitting joints or bony areas).

Internal strikes combines:
Whole body power,breathing and intention.

It needs very little distance to generate power,allowing you to strike continuosly and powerfully in a very short period,like a machine gun.

Is like the power from a Whip versus the power from a Stick.

Since you are using your wole body to issue whiping power,in the begining you need to train the rigth body mechanics, aligments,flexibility,balance and coordination,after refining this elements you add Tant Tien breathing and intention and... presto..you have Internal Power.

In my system you should be able to issue Internal Power from,standing,moving,sitting or from jumping in the air.

My sugestion to you is,visit a Internal Master and ask for a Demo,you will "feel" the difference.

OH!!,yes,you also need a good Teacher,a LOT of patience and hard work.

VF

[Crimson Phoenix]

It has a lot to do with body structure, the structure you aim at acquiring while doing internal arts...it also has a lot to do with tendon usage vs muscle...in internal strikes, the elongation of tendons generate the power, not the contraction of the muscles...
Also, if you wanna check my comment about "internal iron palm" in the "Jim Lacy" topic of southern martial arts (I don't feel like repeating it or cutting'n'pasting!!).
This is just my humble opinion...

Phoenix

[Kaitain(UK)]

I'm far too humble to discount something out of hand because I don't understand it

However, I don't think I have 'mystical chi' in my punches - I have energy, power, kinetic energy - whatever you wanna call it.

With regards to the 'forcing water out of the cells' description - I don't think that's what I or my Sifu or his Sifu do. Taiji is designed to be harmonious with the body - it's not going to be internally destructive to the practitioner. From what you describe I'd expect to come out in bruises after training fa-jing. Surely the whole point is the explosive energy is issuing out of you - the vibrations afterwards are what you failed to nail the target with. Or am I missing your point? I may be misunderstanding you entirely...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[les paul]

I also was unable to understand the whole "pushing water out of the cells thing." I've never heard of this. I was taught that the water principle in "Zuan Quan" is refered to how the punch took on the properties of actual water (i.e. the punch drills to the path of least resistence, straight, up, sideways and down, it doesn't matter)

Paul
Michigan

[TheBigToad]

ol!!!

I was thinking you where all brain dead till I went back a reread my post..now I understand :)

OK ... the pushing the water out of the cells thing..ok that what happens the body of your ATTACKER.. I know I wrote it wrong.

Strikes of an internal artist commonly will have a wave like pattern to them and this will hit flesh and sink into the attacker's body in addition the wave like kinetic force will actually push the water out of the attacker's cells and rip and kill them causing much more damage then just a good solid strike.

The attacker's body not yours..my bad :) lol! :p

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[JerryLove]

"Taiji is designed to be harmonious with the body - it's not going to be internally destructive to the practitioner."

Untrue statement. Any qigong can be harmful.

[Kaitain(UK)]

get a dictionary
look up 'designed'
then read that statement again
with your new found knowledge does that statement roughly translate to:

a)Taiji can never be harmful to the body
or
b)Taiji was not meant to be harmful to the body

then look up 'pedant' and think how it applies to you

finally:
QiGong is not Taiji
QiGong can be harmful if you mix up different types - on its own it should not be harmful unless performed incorrectly

what was the purpose of your post?

p.s - yes I'm in a bad mood

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[This message was edited by Kaitain(UK) on 07-08-01 at 04:46 AM.]

[JerryLove]

It's not what Taiji was designed to do that was incorrect. Although personally, I get some negative feedback internally on some of the Chen stuff, Taiji was not designed to be harmful....

Taiji *is* a form of qigong. Any qigong can be harmful (usually for the reasons you mentioned, but there are others)

Therefore the statement "it's not going to be internally destructive" is incorrect. It may or may not be depending on many circumstances (including weather you are doing it correctly).

If you are going to rant, at least be right.