Another youtube video.

[AmanuJRY]

WC/light sparring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjdu4SY1q6U&NR)

Happened on this one, hadn't seen it posted here, thought it was interesting...any thoughts?

Anyone know these guys?

[sihing]

Don't know who the guys are..

One thing I've learned over the years is not to stay in wrist range, and comitting to an attack at times is better than sitting in no man's land. These guys are in no man's land and staying there is not something to do. VEry stiff in there arms and chasing limbs is the norm here.

Look like beginners. Gotta give them credit though for posting it up..

J

[Ernie]

stop it ,,,,, don't touch me ,,,, you might mess up my hair ,,,,,,,:rolleyes:

[stricker]

i didnt watch the whole thing got a bit bored. one thing i dont get is the enter the dragon crossed wrists thing. makes for a cool bit of film but i dont see it as fight applicable at all or even developing good attributes or skill. its not facing and pressureing the centre and its not taking the angle (or blindside take the back whatever)

bit tkd point sparring style too with the kicks and that.

[_William_]

Too darn tentative! Light touch sparring reinforces the "you punch I block, I punch, you block" mentality. No timing or initiative being built here.

[Faruq]

You guys have probably seen this one already, but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq6H9pEQ

[Chief Fox]

That's the smallest kwoon I've ever seen. :eek:

[AmanuJRY]

That's the smallest kwoon I've ever seen. :eek:

That's what I was thinking.:D


I'm not wholly impressed with the slap-boxing game either, but as long as it isn't a 'replacement' or 'alternative' to more hard contact sparring. If they're just messin' around before the real workout, I'd let it slide....but then again, if they had the video set up to tape them slap-boxing (light sparring), where's the hard sparring video?

Some of their 'constructive criticism' in the comments make it even better. :rolleyes:



You guys have probably seen this one already, but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq6H9pEQ

I posted that one on a different thread, but it wasn't really discussed.:(

To me, it looks like a practiced WC'er throwing down with a buddy who can kinda kick like MT/kicboxing (but is obviously not well practiced or is throwing things all sloppy). It reminds me of working WC techs against a mostly compliant (with a little 'aliveness') partner.

[AmanuJRY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfhxVmdXZ4&mode=related&search=

Had to post this one...anyone practice this?

:D :D :D

[Whiplash]

Here are two videos someone posted to Youtube from the school I train at, under Sifu Cheng (Lo Man Kam).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85sGwakiDcQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptxaEdDTMcM


(i'm not in them)


Begin opinions .................................................. ............ now! ;)

[Matrix]

Youtube is becoming quite the phenomenon that's for sure.
I must admit that for every decent clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guWUo8qS53U)I see there are many more bad clips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI620KEdHf4). Like many things in life the paretto principle prevails. Of course, this is all subjective.

[planetwc]

That drill would appear to build bad habits even FASTER.

1. No sticking hands. Looks like Kenpo hands.
2. Flailing with no intention or penetration. Looks like bad Kenpo Hands.
3. Leaning the head "out of the way", leading to "afraid to be hit" and bad posture.
4. They are out of contact range to HIT each other.

A boxer or Muay Thai guy will eat you alive with that. He will enter you and pound you out. Somehow I don't think Lo Man Kam would approve of this.

Here is a much better speed drill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QT34CrQOzk&

Note the difference in posture, structure, intent and drive.


Here are two videos someone posted to Youtube from the school I train at, under Sifu Cheng (Lo Man Kam).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85sGwakiDcQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptxaEdDTMcM


(i'm not in them)


Begin opinions .................................................. ............ now! ;)

[planetwc]

Try this one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HITt_ButfRY&NR

That second clip you posted was just awful.



Youtube is becoming quite the phenomenon that's for sure.
I must admit that for every decent clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guWUo8qS53U)I see there are many more bad clips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI620KEdHf4). Like many things in life the paretto principle prevails. Of course, this is all subjective.

[Whiplash]

A boxer or Muay Thai guy will eat you alive with that. He will enter you and pound you out. Somehow I don't think Lo Man Kam would approve of this.

Really? dunno about that (http://www.chengwingchun.co.nz/wing-chun-en/gallery_photos_nostalgia.asp) ... :p

[Mr Punch]

... Somehow I don't think Lo Man Kam would approve of this.I thought exactly the same thing.


Really? dunno about that (http://www.chengwingchun.co.nz/wing-chun-en/gallery_photos_nostalgia.asp) ... :pYou showed pictures of Lo Man Kam with Sifu Cheng, doing something completely different to the video you posted. How does this show Sifu Lo's approval of that training method?

The people I've trained with from Sifu Lo's line have been controlled, careful, and structurally very sound. They very rarely lose their head position for just one thing.

[AmanuJRY]

I don't know squat about what Lo Man Kam would or wouldn't approve of...

...but I have to agree with David (planetwc) regarding the videos, and I think the dudes in the videos he posted had better form and cleaner technique (more real hitting, less slappy-slap;) ).

[Ultimatewingchun]

After seeing the youtube clip referred to on the first post of his thread...

I've decided to take up give up wing chun forever. I've had enough. I can't take it anymore. It's too embarassing. I can't be associated with anything like this...my self esteem will suffer, and my spirit willl sink into oblivion. I might even get suicidal if this continues...:( ;) :cool:

Think I'll take up tennis. :rolleyes:










NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...BODY FIGHTS LIKE THAT. :eek:

[Whiplash]

Ok well all head-movement aside, it is a speed drill, as mentioned on the youtube thing, for reaction training etc. It's not choreographed, so it's not pretty :)

It's never going to be super perfect form when he's not choreographed and the opponent doesn't give up immediately ;) I don't see perfect form when other people post videos of sparring in the ring, for example.

As for sigung Lo, well he visited recently and didn't have any objections. Those assumptions are really bizarre, by the way.
I have no idea who your Sifu is, nor have I met him - but through the power of the internet I will speak for him :rolleyes: My black belt in Feng Shui is coming in handy.

[AmanuJRY]

Ok well all head-movement aside, it is a speed drill, as mentioned on the youtube thing, for reaction training etc. It's not choreographed, so it's not pretty :)

It's never going to be super perfect form when he's not choreographed and the opponent doesn't give up immediately ;) I don't see perfect form when other people post videos of sparring in the ring, for example.


On the contrary, the video David posted and the 'good' video Bill posted are both examples of a chi sau kind of sparring with good form and technique, and I don't believe it's choreographed.;)

[Matrix]

Ok well all head-movement aside, it is a speed drill, as mentioned on the youtube thing, for reaction training etc. It's not choreographed, so it's not pretty :)I may be totally off base here, but speed drills that emphasize hand speed at the expense of body stucture might be counter-productive. My understanding is that for proper power development, your upper body should remain in sync with the lower body. You really want to hit with the whole body, not just your hands.

[Phil Redmond]

i didnt watch the whole thing got a bit bored. one thing i dont get is the enter the dragon crossed wrists thing. makes for a cool bit of film but i dont see it as fight applicable at all or even developing good attributes or skill. its not facing and pressureing the centre and its not taking the angle (or blindside take the back whatever)

bit tkd point sparring style too with the kicks and that.
That "enter the dragon thing" is called, cross arm chi sau. There is also parallel arm chi sau. It was taught by Yip Man to develop contact reflexes. The drills start out with contact then the same drills are done pre-contact. I can send you some clips of how fight applicable it is. Just pm me a email addy.
PR

[marcus_pasram]

Hello Striker,

This video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=wktuTZc6y5I) gives another point of view on the "enter the dragon crossed wrists" drill.

/Marcus


i didnt watch the whole thing got a bit bored. one thing i dont get is the enter the dragon crossed wrists thing. makes for a cool bit of film but i dont see it as fight applicable at all or even developing good attributes or skill. its not facing and pressureing the centre and its not taking the angle (or blindside take the back whatever)

bit tkd point sparring style too with the kicks and that.

[Edmund]

He will enter you and pound you out.

Though I agree, the way you've phrased that is turning me off for some reason.
:D

[Whiplash]

I may be totally off base here, but speed drills that emphasize hand speed at the expense of body stucture might be counter-productive. My understanding is that for proper power development, your upper body should remain in sync with the lower body. You really want to hit with the whole body, not just your hands.

Fair enough. I can't speak for the guys in the video on that. And i'd just sound cliche'd if I gave the usual "my sifu this" and "my sifu that". But the guys do have 'power'. Perhaps not displayed that well in the videos.

Cheers for the input though - i'll pass it on tactfully ;-)

[AmanuJRY]

Though I agree, the way you've phrased that is turning me off for some reason.
:D
:eek:

I didn't catch that, but now that you have pointed it out, I'm not comfy with that expression either.:D

[Mr Punch]

BTW Whiplash, I wasn't saying it had to be pretty, and I have met and trained with a coupld of Lo's students... neither of whom looked like that. I'm not going to make any aspersions as to why Lo might let things like that go, nor am I slighting your sifu in any way, I'm sure he's got a lot going for him, nor even am I really saying that that drill is useless: in very small doses, very occasionally it may be useful for reflexes and speed, though not really anything you couldn't do on a heavy bag...

But it's not just the head movements.

As Matrix said the upper body and lower body movements are impossible to sync at that speed which means you get a load of arm-slaps rather than using the hips and stance to generate power.

Also, the shoulders are coming up in a constant battle for the head. This raising of the shoulders is effectively stopping any power that may have been generated by the lats and back muscles too, meaning it really is just arms.

There is no low level striking, little or no stepping off line or other flanking moves, and bizarrely, no kicking at all (though looking at the karate-lik kicking drill on the vids on the site perhaps that's just as well).

Limited value occasionally. Strange thing to showcase on the website.

As to everybody criticizing the original link, I don't see that it was too bad. I'm surprised that reality advocates like you Victor, are coming down on it for not being real: of course it isn't real, it's light sparring/messing about in the changing rooms! The guy with the short hair is obviously useless and lacking in confidence and the guy with the long hair is obviously a lot more confident and thinks he's the **** (tho his skills are not particularly evident as proof - maybe it's the circs and the vid, he may be good). But as light playing around it may well be useful to do this kind of thing sometimes over a slavish addiction to chi sao.

Sparring is not reality: even full-contact geared up sparring is not reality, this is just one stage on the continuum. Must beat karate point sparring for a start!

[toddwc]

Interesting takes on light sparring the wing chun gym i train at the light sparring we do is alot more contact but then again my teacher is pushing the gym for san shou competiton so the contact is needed. Just that when i read the title it says light sparring my teacher says light sparring and that means at like 50% power so was expecting to see how the different wing chun gym's spar. Anyone else got any clips of other wing chun gym's sparring and training?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"As to everybody criticizing the original link, I don't see that it was too bad. I'm surprised that reality advocates like you Victor, are coming down on it for not being real: of course it isn't real, it's light sparring/messing about in the changing rooms! The guy with the short hair is obviously useless and lacking in confidence and the guy with the long hair is obviously a lot more confident and thinks he's the **** (tho his skills are not particularly evident as proof - maybe it's the circs and the vid, he may be good). But as light playing around it may well be useful to do this kind of thing sometimes over a slavish addiction to chi sao." (Mr. Punch)


***I'M COMING DOWN on it because, though you can say that it's a spontaneous light sparring session of a sort, the moves used ARE soooo unrealistic, ie. - NOT resembling reality.

While it's true that there is such a thing as crossed arm and parallel arm drills, as Phil pointed out, the fact is that these are JUST drills that teach certain skills and techniques and strategies that need to be READJUSTED to sparring/fighting against NON wing chun fighters/styles.

So when I said: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...BODY fights like that, I meant that in real life people are punching from different lines - MUCH DIFFERENT LINES than the ones used in the drills (ie.- rounder punches, jabs, crosses, uppercuts, etc.)...and NOT the super straight lines that would allow you to pull off a lop sao from the outside of his lead arm cross arm position, for example...and from three inches away.

That's totally unrealistic - as well as not using body structure realistically either, as Matrix pointed out.

It's one thing to do a drill that leads to something else - it's quite another to take that drill and spar with it as if it is real.....because it's not real at all. WHY?

Because nobody fights like that.

The ENTER THE DRAGON fight scenes that started from cross arm position is pure HOLLYWOOD. Fights don't start from that position. Ever.

Get my drift?

[planetwc]

:eek:

I didn't catch that, but now that you have pointed it out, I'm not comfy with that expression either.:D

:D

Hee Hee. Exactly. And someone on the receiving end of a counter attack like that will be extremely uncomfortable with it physically too. :eek:

[leejunfan]

I stayed clear of this thread because I tend to get into trouble for being as brunt as I am.... but.... oh well... here it goes. :rolleyes:

I tip my hat to these two gentlemen for at least trying to train. A lot of poeple on these forums (you know who you are) are a lot of talk and VERY little action. They hypothesize this and that and never do any actual hands on contact or non-compliant drilling.

With that said I have to say these guys looked pretty bad. For starters they looked more like fencers with their bodies hardly ever being square. There was hardly any actual "sticking" and it looked very much like a Tag Sau match. I saw a lot of rising up out of the horse, sloppy hand and feet work and absolutely nothing in the realm of setting up angles. Lot's of very pointless kicking.

So to summarize: props for doing it but props removed for not following the basics of Wing Chun principle.:(

[stricker]

That "enter the dragon thing" is called, cross arm chi sau. There is also parallel arm chi sau. It was taught by Yip Man to develop contact reflexes. The drills start out with contact then the same drills are done pre-contact. I can send you some clips of how fight applicable it is. Just pm me a email addy.
PRi guessed so its just not something ive used or would find odd. ive seen similar things taught as "street" stuff eg raising your arms against a guy posturing and getting the crossed angle, entry for lap + punch etc. that would be cool tho, i'll pm you. :)

[Matrix]

I stayed clear of this thread because I tend to get into trouble for being as brunt as I am.... but.... oh well... here it goes. :rolleyes:

I tip my hat to these two gentlemen for at least trying to train.
<SNIP>So to summarize: props for doing it but props removed for not following the basics of Wing Chun principle.:(leejunfan,

You should keep in mind that people post videos on Youtube to solicit opinion and feedback. If they don't want it, they can turn the comments and/or the ratings off, or just don't post their videos in the first place. Think of it as a form of on-line "Idol" where everyone thinks that they can sing, but the facts clearly show otherwise. :rolleyes:

As for being blunt, you seem to want to sugar coat your comments with a tip of your hat, then smack them in the head with a dose of reality. I agree with your critique, but I find the pleasantries to be somewhat hypocritical.