Qi-Qong and body lightening

[dre_doggX]

I heard some kungfu and qi kung master could leap over buildings does any one know any qi qong excerises for this
Andre Lashley

Andre Lashley

[count]

I have heard stories of some of the early masters training in Iron Jacket or Iron Vest to increase their jumping ability. Some would wear this heavy metal vest for years without taking it off. Not very practical if you work in an office or something. ;) Basketball players wear ankle weights to increase their jumping ability. Not likely they could leap over tall buildings in a single bound though. :D

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

_ˇˇ

[Brad]

Most likely talltales, kind of like Davey Crocket, Pecos Bill, etc. Waaaaay back there's some KF master with Jordan like jumping ability. Some average guy sees it, tells his budies about it at the local tavern(embelishing a little to make the story more exciting), they inturn tell their friends, who tell their freind, etc. Exagerating a little bit every time.

[woliveri]

I have been told there is a process for this. Of course it takes years. The training involves binding your knee joint with a board preventing your knee from bending when you try to jump. Thus you use only the muscles below the knee and the act of raising you arms to jump. Dig a hole in the ground (maybe an inch or two to start) and, with your knees bound, jump in and out. When you can do this well, deepen the hole.

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[Gluteus Maximus]

Andre said:

"I heard some kungfu and qi kung master could leap over buildings does any one know any qi qong excerises for this"

Woliveri said:

"I have been told there is a process for this. Of course it takes years. The training involves binding your knee joint with a board preventing your knee from bending when you try to jump. Thus you use only the muscles below the knee and the act of raising you arms to jump. Dig a hole in the ground (maybe an inch or two to start) and, with your knees bound, jump in and out. When you can do this well, deepen the hole."


I tried this, but after two years the hole was still only about a foot deep, so I decided to just walk around the building instead.

Max

"The force can be envisaged as cone-shaped". Tsui Seung Tin

[ascan]

I believe Water Dragon once gave a very helpful link related to this skill. Try the following:

http://www.geocities.com/peterpan1720/index.html

[origenx]

Yes, I've heard stories of jumping abilities up to 20' or 25.' However, I these stories were only from 2 generations back, or as late as the 1950s or so in China. I haven't heard of any such masters in recent times.

[uncle]

Good luck buddy.The only reference I've seen to Ching Gong is in Sun Lu Tang's book ,"The Study of Mind Form Boxing ". That is not to say it is or is not included in Xing Yi Chuan , but that SLT learned it from a shaolin monk when he was very young.

[PlasticSquirrel]

qing gong is a real skill from shao lin. the methods shown above are what i believe to be low-level. real qing gong is not meant to make your legs stronger, but your body lighter.

i have also read that little snippet about it in sun lu-tang's book xing yi quan xue. a later bit about it is in a smaller, less-obvious section, where sun states that hou xing (monkey form) will make the body light.

i'm not sure if this is a reference to a training method of qing gong, but it is in wang tsung-yueh's classic on shi san shi (thirteen postures):

"To make the entire body light and agile suspend the headtop."

not sure if that one is meant to be taken literally or not. maybe someone can help me with that.

i've seen on tv a short chinese guy that could walk along suspended large sheets of paper. he was also an exponent of traditional chinese medicine. pretty neat, though. that was definitely qing gong if i've ever seen it. it is real, though, and it does make your body light, so that many of the things done with wires in the movies could have been actually done in real life!

[EARTH DRAGON]

plasic squirrl hit the nail on the head! to goals of shaolin were to use qi-gong to become very heavy or rooted so that not to be lifted or pushed in combat , the other was the yin/yang type theory of oppostites to become very light to have the ability to move quickly and efforlessly when need be. so the focus is reversing ones polarity to do either so the basis is light ness not how high they jump. my sifu's sifu has a picture of himself doing a hand stand on one finger.. this is not so much finger strength as it is lightness for your finger could not hold up 150 lbs if thats what you weigh but if you made your body say 60lbs it would be easier yes......

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[origenx]

earthdragon - is that the pic of the guy who is standing on 1 finger, but has his feet against a wall for balance?

[EARTH DRAGON]

dear orginex no he is in henan a province in china in the countreyside on some grass, but not to many people have seen the picture for it is 1 of 2 copies the other is in shaolin. have you seen the smae pose? it almost makes you think its a fake but i assure you it is not!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[origenx]

earthdragon - no, i just saw some video where an old master stood on 1 finger (but w/feet against wall) and then also poked a punching bag with a finger, poking a hole thru it so that sand poured out. It may have been some old Shaolin guy...

So this guy in Henan province was shown standing on 1 finger only - no feet against a wall or anything? Wow, can u scan that pic in for us?

I only wish someone had some footage of an old master jumping 25' up now!!!

[EARTH DRAGON]

If I were fortunate to have it it would be the front page of our web site! it is a 24x14 framed picture in our HQ school in san fransico in my sifu office and i have only seen it but do not own it sorry! but he is outdoors no walls around to answer your question.. thank you 4 your time

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[IronFist]

Earth Dragon,

Ask your sifu if you can take a photo of the picture for us.

Or, if he won't let you, I guess Ashida Kim's astral spies could get a picture of it for us. Hehe.

Iron

[EARTH DRAGON]

As I stated before it is in the office of my sifu in san Fran cal. I now live in buffalo ny some 3,496 miles away sorry!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[polygon360]

Forget about weight vests and holes. Stand. Breath in, push Qi upwards. Breath out, push downwards. Root, and lighten. They are complimentary. You don't need to jump twenty feet in the air -- you need to have an understanding relationship with the ground. I can't do much myself, but I can walk over a freshly moped floor and leave no foot prints. Any of us can do it. Try a simple breathing exercise. After all, Qi is breath.
Much love
M

[count]

Then you are ready to leave the temple! But first answer a question for me. If "Chi is breath" then how can the chi flow anywhere except the lungs? also, could you explain how root and lighten are complimentary?

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[polygon360]

Chi means breath in Chinese, but I doubt this is what you're asking. All things have basis in physicallity. Chi as an energy force can be understood through physical processes. Breath INITIALLY enters the lungs, but is then injected into your blood, and eventually into all your cellular structures. Chi is breath, and breath is the foremost fuel of the entire body. Without food, or water, we can last a relatively HUGE amount of time compared to the very short span of minutes we can go without breath. Breath is everywhere in the body, and you can feel it vibrate the marrow of your bones. Chi is there.

In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu states that Gravity is the root of lightness. I think that explains perfectly how rooting and lightness are complementary. One can't exist without the other. The root is yang, the lightness is yin. Why is this confusing?
M

[polygon360]

And by the way, count. Your profile puts you way ahead of me in training. I should think you wouldn't have trouble with these concepts. If there is something completely skewed in my understanding, I would be gratefull for everyone's reinforced opinions. I haven't studied nearly as much as most people here, as it pertains to martial arts, but I have studied ancient Chinese thought extensively. I hope for everyone's honest opinion.
M

[count]

Chi has many definitions, not one. Before we explore them answer me this. Once the air is "injected" into the blood (as you put it), what makes the blood flow to the rest of the body? Let's see if you can answer this and my next question.(I shouldn't even have to ask. If you don't know what my next question will be, just answer.)

BTW, I don't have a problem grasping anything, just a slightly different perspective and I wanted to discuss, not debate. On one hand you seem to want to discuss this in terms of physicality and on the other hand you quote from the Tao to me. Chi is more than air. The Tao does say "gravity is the source of lightness" but please tell me where in the Tao Te Ching is root discussed..

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[honorisc]

It seems that this Tao Te Ghing was abot saying things so that an idea could be perceived. In a dream a mountain does not necessarily mean your going hiking...but see That's why the mountain get across my point so well. Because things related to hiking also relate to what the dream might have been trying to convey. The mountain in the dream could be a situation. I'll call it the situation of one's life for example. There's a back pack involved with climbing a mountain. And back packing and mountain climbing are very different at least in intensity, but for the sake of conveying an idea, don't persue this discrepency~. Thank you, whatever you decide. The backpack in other dreams might be referred to as luggage--the mental trappings of Self which weighs one down as that one travels. However, as in a backpack the items in the luggage helpsone along that journey. Some weights are worth bearing...

Gravity, with mass refers to heaviness. Heaviness refers to lightness, in a polar way. Two sides of a gravity coin even though they are the same thing, merely different intensities. Rooting is deliberate, not moving. Lightness, here refers to nearly~ effortless movement. With the English thinking and my poet's type liscence I as old Tzu might (also a poet-like, card holder, perhaps)have done. These are opposites or better, complimentary.

Chee (chi, ki, ch'i,qi.?.), is found in / gotten from breathing. It is not breath. Breath is inhale exhale. Breathing is the mechanics. Qi is the to the body, what conscienciousness is to the brain (mind to the brain). Please recall that I mentioned that I do have a poet-like card. Hopefully exhonerating me from all charges of, ~What the Fruit was that...What the Fruit is s/he saying there...What planet is s/he from...


Thank you for your tolerance. :-)

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Nexus]

If you haven't read the below text, its about time you do. Maybe it shall clear things up.



<font color="blue">
One morning, a young man came to the Master saying, "Master, I wish to understand my path on earth better. I wish to know why it is that I seem to carry my past and re-live it again and again. Why is it that I cannot get past my past?"

The Master smiled at the young man who seemed to be earnestness itself. "Go forward into the Maze in the garden. But carry this backpack as you walk the maze. It will help you stay focused and balanced. Be careful as it is quite heavy though," the Master said.

The young man took the backpack from the Master who handed it over quite easily. But when the young man had it firmly in his grasp he was astonished at how heavy it really was! Placing the shoulder straps over his arms and bent over from the sheer weight of the pack, he strode towards the Maze. He was surprised to see it was not a garden maze, but was built of silk panels that were nearly translucent.

The young man paused before entering the maze and then stood and walked into it. Immediately he found himself facing a solid wall of silk. However, he could see just enough through the silk to other areas of the maze to make out others there at the same time. He could "see" them and hear them but they were not part of his path.

The weight upon his shoulders reminded him of why he was there, so he put the thoughts of the others out of his head. Walking forward, he found himself hopelessly trapped. It seemed that no matter which direction he walked, there was no way to proceed forward. Baffled, the young man sat down and pondered his situation.

'The Master told me to walk the maze but it seems unwalk-able. Yet, there are others here who are obviously ahead of me. They must have figured out a way to get through this section. How did they do that? Are they smarter than I am? Did they cheat? Did they crawl under the silk, as that would be really a simple matter and who would ever know?'

The young man weighed his options and then rose, deciding to not sneak under the silk. As he stood and turned, an opening appeared before him as though by magic and he moved forward.Soon, he faced another series of solid silk panels and could see no opening or direction to walk other than the one he had come from.

Again he sat down and thought of his situation. He had gotten through the first test he felt, by reflecting upon his options and then choosing to take the one that was for his highest good. Stating again his affirmation that he would desire to walk the maze only with positive intent he stood, ready to face his opening. But none was there. He still faced a blank series of panels.

The young man was baffled. He had felt that surely he would be rewarded as before for his desire to proceed only within his highest good.The weight of his backpack cut into his shoulders, bringing him sharply back to reality. What was it that weighed so much? What had the Master placed in it to weigh it down? Rocks? Bricks? It did not feel hard and unforgiving like those items, it felt soft yet heavy. What could possibly be soft and yielding yet heavy enough to weigh him down like this?

Pulling the backpack off of his shoulders, he opened it and peaked inside. 'The Master did not tell to not look,' he reasoned. It was EMPTY! Yet it had weight! 'How could this be', he wondered. Picking it back up, he again felt how heavy it was yet it was empty! Again he glanced inside and this time felt with his hands. Empty! But the weight!!!

Placing it upon his shoulders he stood. He asked himself what it was that he had just learned from this experience. He heard a voice clearly say, 'Look inside of you, young man, for the weight lies there,' he was told. As he walked he looked at his life and his path. He thought of his childhood and the friends and enemies who had caused him harm. He thought of how stuck he had been by their feelings of him, their attitudes towards him. He remembered how angry he was with one particular boy who had taunted him unmercifully. This boy was hated to this day by the young man. The pack became even heavier as the student re-created and re-lived the experience within his mind and heart.

'Ahhhh. I understand now. I carry the weight of that which burdens me. I am the weight! I therefore have it within me to unburden myself as well.' The student was joyous with this insight and then saw and walked his way through a series of panels of silk.

He thought of how he could unburden the weight of those he still despised and resented for their treatment of him. He knew that they were not there with him in the maze so he could not expect them to say, 'I am sorry" and thus lessen the weight and allow him to go forward easily.

"I forgive you, wherever you are,' he found himself saying to his own amazement. The weight of the pack lessened immediately and he was able to walk without bending forward at the waist. 'Ah ha!' the young one exclaimed. 'Through my intent to forgive, I unburden myself of this weight which hinders my journey. But how can this be? For they were the ones who wronged me. Yet my forgiving of them unweights me?' The young one's head swum with the implications. And another series of openings appeared before him in the panels of silk. His pack was considerably lighter, but still weighed enough for his mind to stay focused upon it.

'Oh, Great Spirit, I ask you to help me see what it is that you are showing me here. How do I make my way through this maze? How do I release myself of the full weight that I carry with me?' It was at that moment that a beam of sunlight hit him squarely in the face, warming him.

He suddenly realized that his pack had lightened again with the warmth of the sun! 'What does this mean, God? Why do you lighten my pack with sunlight? What are you showing me?'

It was then that he found himself re-membering a "woman" that he had kissed when he was thirteen. It was his first kiss of adulthood and he remembered her clearly. His heart raced with the remembrance of her taste upon his lips and his love for her. His pack lightened considerably this time.

'Thank you God for your considerable wisdom in this. I see now how I am to unburden myself completely. It is through my loving AND forgiving those who have been in my way and have wronged me previously. It is not their wronging of me that has hindered me. It is my holding on to that wronging that has stopped me. By seeing myself as one who has been wronged, I could not go forward in the maze. And by seeing myself as one who was without love, I could not lessen the weight of the pack. As I forgive and bring love within me, I make my journey easier.'

The young man felt his heart swell in size as he felt these insights. He felt his heart race with joy, as it knew its lesson to him was being heard.

The pack weighed nothing now and the young man took it off and held it lightly in his hands. He stood before a solid silk wall now and could see neither an opening nor his way to where he had just come from. He was surrounded by solid silk!

However, instead of panicking, he sat and breathed in this mantra:

"I Am the light and the Way. I carry within me all manner of healing and knowing. It is through this healing and knowing that I make my way through this earthly maze. I am able to carry forth of the journey through this maze and I am able to release my entrapment. I alone have the ability to solve this riddle and I ask now to have it done. I breathe in full acceptance of my path and its possibilities, God. I recognize that I was the impediment, not anyone or anything else. I am LIGHT and I am LOVE. Thus being so FREES me and allows me to soar above the physical realm. In this I re-discover myself which is my True Self, God. Thank you for helping me to see this. I so love you."

At this, the young man felt his feet rise slightly above the earth! He floated above the silk panels and could clearly see the others stuck within the maze. Their darknesses were carried around in their own packs and held them stuck. His head swum with the implications of what was happening to him at that moment. But he focused not on that, but on the fact that he was flying! He was soaring! He was above the earth in his lightness! He was outside of the Maze!

Spying the ground around the maze, he thought of being there and staying outside of the maze. And at once, he was. By thinking it and seeing it, it became. The Master was at his side as he touched down.

"Master, thank you for placing my weight so severely upon my shoulders as you did. Were it not so heavy, I would have gladly carried it longer and longer for it would have not hindered me all that much. But as it weighed me down so greatly, I had to get rid of the weight first before I could do anything else."

"How did you free yourself of your weight, my son?" the Master asked. His face was alight with joy and love as he did so. " I found myself forgiving those who had wronged me, Master. It was my pain in response to their actions that made me hold on to the pain inside of myself. When I let it go, Master, I watched it soar away from me and felt myself growing lighter." The student's face shone with love as he spoke.

"Ah," said the Master. "And what of the maze itself? That is impossible to walk through. There is no way out." "Oh, Master. The most beautiful thing happened. I began to fly after losing the weight. I saw myself as light and love itself as I found it within me to forgive and forget those that had harmed me, had wronged me. It was my darkness that had caused my weight and it was my lightness that freed me to fly.

By BEING light and love, I floated, Master and found myself outside of the maze. I was freed from its confines; above its entrapments. Master, I see now that I cause my own weight, that hold me down. That I keep me trapped in my past. That I, alone, am responsible for the manner in which I walk this maze.

By releasing those entrapping thoughts, those weighting down feelings and allowing me to feel love and light, I soared above it all. Did I do wrong by getting out of the maze in this way, Master?" The young man was earnestness itself as he awaited the Master's answer.

"What do YOU feel, young one?" the Master answered with a smile. "Do YOU feel freed from the Maze?"

With that, the Master strode away before hearing the young one's reply. He knew that whatever the young one answered would give him further insight as to his own journey.

And this is as it should be.
</p></font>

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[polygon360]

For a minnute I thought I was being beaten up by a pro. It makes me happy to know that you were testing me, not putting me down. We all have our self-esteem to deal with. Thanks, count.

Let's see...
What makes the blood flow, and the next question. I suppose we have to end up with the heart, and how does that beat (nervous impulses sent through the bundle of his and sinoatrial and atriventricular nodes, blah, blah). It all must come from the brain, and why does that work at all.. etc, etc. I can only think you must be getting at what makes us go in the first place. Why exist. Maybe you'll have to answer the questions from now on. I don't know.
Physicallity and "other" -- I'm not sure that they're so unrelated as to have two seperate categories. Chi isn't limited to either, and I'm sure you must see I haven't got a handle on what it is. At my best moments, I feel like that's the best path to understanding it anyway.
If approaching it from a physical standpoint is off, maybe you can tell me about your path. I've always believed that all wisdom can be reached personally, without the aid of reference to anything but reality. IN other words, if the idea is "true" (and oh sweet love, let's not get into what that means), you should be able to reach it on your own, instead of reading it in a book. Then you see the book, and suddenly everything is reinforced. I'll have to write more later - time to go to class. I can't wait to see where this is going...!
M

[count]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For a minnute I thought I was being beaten up by a pro. It makes me happy to know that you were testing me, not putting me down. We all have our self-esteem to deal with. Thanks, count. [/quote]

Actually, there are many here with a great deal of experience who can not define chi as easily as you did. I wouldn't expect you to have the answers after 2 years of practice either. You should be just finding your root. I think your making an oversimplification to say that chi is one thing, the breath. Here is something from our website you may find interesting

"<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">The idea of Chi is fundamental to Chinese Kung Fu and Medical thinking. However, because of its new arrival, the English language has yet to formulate a word or phrase that can adequately define its meaning. We do know that Chi is not some changeless, perpetual substance everything in the universe is composed of and defined by. Nor is it the proverbial "natural force" or "vi tal energy force", for, although it is occasionally translated in that way, traditional Chinese thought does not distinguish between matter and energy. Perhaps we could say that it is energy at the point of materializing? Unfortunately, neither classical (the Wong Di Nei Jing) nor contemporary (the Shanghai Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine) medical text attempts to describe the nature of Chi as a concept. Instead, they define or perceive Chi functionally by what it does in our bodies.</font></p>
<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">The Chinese medical texts describe Chi manifesting from three sources.The first is called "Prenatal Chi", which is transmitted from parents to their children at conception and is sto red in the Kidneys. This explains why children inherit their parent's constitution. The second is "Earth Chi", which comes from the foods we eat. The third is "Heavenly Chi", and is extracted from the air we breathe. These form the Chi that permeates our entire body. Chinese medical texts also describe Chi as having several variant aspects and functions. Within the body, Chi possesses five major functions responsible for the soundness of our bodies.</font></p>


<font face="Arial,Helve tica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Chi is the source of all movement, voluntary and involuntary, whether walking, thinking or aging, all depends on Chi. It is inseparable from movement and grows with it. Chi protects our bodies from the environment. Hosti le influences such as illness are resisted. Chi controls change within our bodies, such as digesting foods into blood, saliva, sweat, and bile. Chi keeps things inside our bodies where they belong. Organs from sagging, fluids remaining in their place, and prevents loss. Chi warms the body. If you doubt this, just touch a dead one.</font></p>


<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Chi also has five primary types associated with specific actions within our bodies:</font></p>
<ul>
<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Organ Chi - Chinese Medicine states that every organ has the same Chi, yet each performs differently depending on the nature of its Chi.</font>
<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Meridian Chi - Meridians are the pathways through which Chi travels to the various body parts adjusting and balancing their activities.</font>
<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Nutritive Chi - This Chi is associated with our blood. It travels within our bloodstream transforming nutrients from our foods.</font>
<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Protective Chi - This yang Chi regulates our immune system aiding in combating illness and disease.</font>
<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular">Ancestral Chi - This Chi's function is to regulate our breathing and heart rate.</font>
[/list]


<font face="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSa ns-Regular">Remember to keep in mind that this is merely an introduction to the concept and nature of Chi and its relationship to the body. Chinese medical theory does not move in a linear fashion like in the West. The whole is always present and is refined with learning over time.</font></p>"

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[This message was edited by count on 07-17-01 at 07:00 AM.]

[count]

I wish you would teach my daughter that trick of walking across a mopped floor without leaving footprints. Never fails that the minute I get through mopping, there she is tracking it up.
:D

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[polygon360]

Wow. You've got a daughter. Does she do Kung Fu too? You can tell her I perfetcted my floor walk while working late shifts at a restaurant. No matter how long you wait to mop, someone will be there to walk over it. May as well not be part of the problem, and it was a great opportunity for practice. I'm close to 200 lbs, so it must count for something!
I'm going to start thinking more intently about chi, using your post as a starting point. Thanks fo rthe great info. I'll check out your site.
M

[count]

I will make her mop the floor from now on and maybe she will learn. I won't let her come to class with me yet. At 11 I think she would get bored with kung fu. She is however, working on her green belt in TKD and I told her if she makes it to black I will take her to my teacher.

You are welcome for the info and yes, it is only a starting point. Keep breathing and practicing and you will discover what you need on your own.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Rooting is deliberate, not moving. [/quote]

No_Know,

If your rooting isn't moving, what good does it do you? (Unless you are a tree) Even than, things like water, food and energy move up the root of the tree. So it is still on the outside and moving on the inside. I think there are always more questions than answers. Luckily, some answers resolve many questions.
Count IS on it!w

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[dre_doggX]

but could you be more explainitory. I read the I Ching to at least alittle every week. but could you explain extactly what how you pratice what you do.?????????????

Andre Lashley