Can KungFu Change a Ravers Life

[Panther]

Well as you know I currently train in two systems at two different schools, one external and the other Internal. At last wednesdays class there was a prospective student who came to my external class he apparently had many questions in regards to the art but it seemed that when he asked the other students they were reluctant to answer his questions mainly because many of the students had made prejudgements about this person. There was no doubt that this person apparently had a drug problem at some time in his life,and he looked like a raver that liked to go to raves all the time, his hair was exotic! but it is my opinion that he wanted to use the arts as his way of finding himself,and turning his life around, and so who am I to judge him. I was more than happy to answer his questions but it seemed that some of the class had already judged him. I can understand why? mainly because many of our students are in the upper class and predominantly socially accepted category in life? He had noticed the other students reluctance when he got to class and so I took him and spoke with him on a more personal basis and tried to explain to him that many of us have been there also.He was very honest with me and so I then introduced him to our Sifu who had welcomed him with open arms?
Now should he allow the other students to jeopardize his training by prejudging him?Or should he look for another school?My personal belief is that the arts whether it be external or internal can really change his life around.
My hats off to him just by the fact that he is trying.

[This message was edited by PANTHER on 07-05-01 at 08:02 PM.]

[This message was edited by PANTHER on 07-05-01 at 08:05 PM.]

[This message was edited by PANTHER on 07-05-01 at 08:06 PM.]

[This message was edited by PANTHER on 07-05-01 at 08:14 PM.]

[kungfu cowboy]

What makes you so sure he has a drug problem? His hair? :confused:

E Pluribus Rectum

[wisdom mind]

he could be honestly doing some soul searching...also he could be sketchy massive

i know of ravers that found themselves through kung fu and got off drugs

on one hand you have a person appearing to be trying to help themselves, if your school turns him away it could show him that rave culture is more accepting than the "so called" holistic community in kung fu families, thus more drugs for him, no self help, etc

or he could be a big time e dealer that needs to know how to defend himself against rival dealers........ since he has an extreme look it might not hurt to be straight up and ask his intentions....i ASSURE you that the question will not be the strangest thing he has seen or heard;)

[Daredevil]

A few points ...

Not all ravers take drugs. Okay, so most do (at one point or another). :)

Even some kungfu guys do drugs. Drugs are not Inherently Evil (tm) and do not mean he tortures little children and/or is an otherwise immoral person. Nor does it mean he is a spineless, raving mad addict.

Hell, I know a lot of ravers who are into martial arts. You could say I've been one, too.

Hell yeah, martial arts will present a raver a distinctly different, but also a quite extreme lifestyle -- the way they like it probably. It will definately teach him something if he takes the practise to heart, just like it would anyone else.

Okay, my views may be a bit skewed, since here in Finland (and Europe in general) I don't think being a "raver" is that weird a thing. We get loads of these. :)

Be open minded.

[harry_the_monk]

Just wanted to back up what Daredevil said there, I used to be a real hard core raver...

Been far into the dark side of it too, but was never 'evil'. I think that really this thread is a bit racist. Sorry, but if you think about it it is. Everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves without prejudgement. I know it is all meant in the best intentions, but asking anyone to decide this guys future other than him is wrong.
Its like centreline says, ask the guy, let him know what you think but let him make his own mind up, as long as you are confident you can guide him with any questions he may have. If not....Let your sifu decide what is the best course of action, as I'm sure its not the first 'raver' he has seen.

Just MHO...I have changed now, and I'm sure others can too, but if they can't, then that is the path they must walk...

Peace...

[BAI HE]

Maybe the "rave" path wasn't the one for him.

Maybe gong-fu will be.

He has a right to find out.
The MA's are for ANYONE WILLING TO TEACH AND ANYONE WILLING TO LEARN.

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

no one's talking about race, stereotyping maybe.. but no racism here.

Knowing others is wisdom, Knowing the self is enlightenment- Lao Tzu

[Panther]

Maybe I was misunderstood by some when I wrote this thread and so I will try to explain a little better than I did previously.
First of all like I said before when I spoke with him on a personal basis he was very honest with me and shared with me why he would like to take martial arts, he seemed to be very sincere his look is what drew his attention,(I know ravers have a particular look) because I know that there are many fellow MA who have also walked in his shoes.I personnally dont try to prejudge anyone, I try to find the good in everyone that I may come in contact with. He was very drawn into the internal aspect of what MA has to offer,( meaning meditation, school respect, qi qong), fighing didn't seem to be that much of importance to him but I'd like to say that no matter what situation in life you are in, every walk of life is a reason to study the arts because lets say he wants to study for the wrong reason, in my experience through time, it will change his whole life around, and I am a firm believer that every walk of life have bullies and those who try to intimidate and hurt the weak, thats where the fighting aspects come in to protect the weak from the strong.
I personally would like to see him become part of our school and learn this art. But I cannot speak on my fellow students but all I can say to them is
He who is without sin let him cast the first stone"

May sound familiar but it holds true to this day. In closing I wanna say that MA has changed my life and others around me to becoming a better person in life and now I am a better father and husband and hopefully in the future, for if any one should ever search into the areana of MA I would hope that no matter what style or school he or she was to choose and if there lifestyle was different than ours we should as martial artists encourage them and welcome them into our school.

[Celestial Amiboshi]

Frankly, I'd be extremely cautious when dealing with misfits such as "ravers". He may come to class all drugged up, or, as someone mentioned before, he may want to learn martial arts so he can defend himself against rival drug dealers and dissatisfied customers. Exercise caution!

Celestial Amiboshi
- "Never without an honorary first stone."

[Fu-Pow]

Daredevil-you cannot abuse drugs and do martial arts at the same time. You are deluding yourself if you think that is true.

As to the question of this student. I myself was a "raver", for a while. Although I wasn't as much into the scene as some people, it was a significant part of my early 20's. When I started in Kung Fu I tried to stay in that scene, but eventually I saw it for the shallowness that it is and I stopped going.

Everyone that enters kung fu comes from different paths, we all enter the art with our
own baggage, demons, insufficiencies, pre-conceived notions, bad posture, bad habits, etc. Everyone that enters is at a different level of development physically or mentally.

True...Kung Fu is about mastering the art of fighting, but it is also a vehicle for self-mastery. It is about ironing out those things I mentioned above and making yourself strong physically and mentally. That is what the people that bounce around from art to art, so-called "mixed martial artists", do not understand. They have never mastered any one art because they have never taken the time to master themselves. I am assuming, of course, that their teacher is indeed a master.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Braden]

rofl

You guys are hilarious.

[Waidan]

me = happy raver kung fu guy. I've grown out of that scene (kid & job will do that), but I had great experiences while part of it, and studied heaps of kung fu all the while. It's all about moderation and priorities, not what particular social clique you happen to identify with.

Braden, yer pretty funny too, mistar.;)

[shaolinboxer]

If his training partners don't like him, maybe they will after the train together for a while. If not, he can move on.

Martial arts schools, IMHO, should strive to support all of their students so that they can develop naturally, without additonal concerns or pressure that is unhealthy. Condeming them because they look different violates the basic principals of character we seek to develop through martial arts.

Condemnation is the bold face of ignorance.

[Panther]

Well I agree. Kung fu will definetely change his bad habits. Why is everyone so quick to judge a person just because he is a raver or anything that society might consider to be a misfit?
When you first started kung fu I am sure you had your own reasons for joining, and today you are a better person for that.There are some that Kungfu has rescued them from a life of drugs, and or crime.Even if this persons personal ambition is to defend himself who are we to judge his motives, in time the good will beat out the bad, and his karma will come to light.

[HuangKaiVun]

If sifu accepts him, he is a student. Period.

I'm sure your friend can handle it.

If not, it would be in your sifu's best interest to keep things cool in his kwoon.

[Panther]

That's what I say!

[MasterPhil]

1st item:
"they were reluctant to answer his questions mainly because many of the students had made prejudgements about this person." -- Panther, have you asked ANY of those student what their reason was for not answering his questions?
"mainly because many of our students are in the upper class and predominantly socially accepted category in life" -- Of course not! You already knew what their reason was!

Your lack of self-awareness is amusing. I can explain if you don't understand why...

Don't assume what other people think just because of their job, clothes, or "social status". You may be right in your assumption, but you may also be wrong. In doing so, you become just as bad as you assume others are... Prejudices are prejudices, whether they are about the rich or the poor.

Maybe they felt he wasn't serious enough. Maybe it wasn't time to ask questions. Maybe he was being a smart-ass. Maybe he rubbed them the wrong way. Maybe he had really bad b.o. And maybe you're right also. Who knows but themselves?

2nd item:
Kungfu doesn't change people's lives. People change people's lives. You all seem so eager to believe kf has changed your life when in reality, YOU changed your own life. Kf was just the tool, the igniter. You could have just as well picked up religion, law school (that will change you into a shark!), or anything else for that matter. It's the people you meet, the knowledge you gain, that will entice you to make a change. But YOU are the one MAKING the change. If some guy joins his local ma club, goes to every class, enjoys it, and stops after 6 months to move on to other things, has kf changed his life? Very little at most.

Anyway, I just feel it is important to realize that individuals are responsible for themselves. If that guy wants to seriously make a change in his life, he will keep going to your school, he will keep practicing and he won't let people's attitudes stop him. If he does, then he's not really ready to make a change or maybe kf is simply not his thing. Maybe he would simply prefer meditation or yoga. It seems like he is at the beginning of his journey. He will make his own path. Your altruism is commandable but I think people should worry more about themselves and less about others. Have more trust in people, and in their ability to be strong and free. Helping others is good, but only when it truly helps them. More often than not, we help others to make ourselves feel good about ourselves.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[Celestial Amiboshi]

Mabey it was his less than comely coifeture?

Celestial Amiboshi
- "Never without an honorary first stone."

[wisdom mind]

you mentioned he had heartfelt emotion that you pikked up on....i would "go" with that then unless he is REALLY playing your kwoon (not that likely)

as rave (as I knew it) was about community and togetherness, outside of the restrictions set by society like public school segregation and social stratification......

basically if you feel that he is sincere then by "rave tenets" like PLUR (Peace Love Unity Respect) he wont wrong your kwoon

it might be good for the more normal people to have him in the class, as they will be forced to develop and accept this new generation of practitioner...if they cannot accept him and sifu does, then i think that shows where the other students are at...closed minded and blocked....as long as he follows your rules, hook him up!

blaze one every time pon dem head

[Panther]

Thanks, finally some sound advise I can use.

[Fu-Pow]

Helllloooo...silent thunder. Did I not say that kung fu was the vehicle.....

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Daredevil]

Justa few more comments on this subject.

Celestial Amiboshi wrote:

"Frankly, I'd be extremely cautious when dealing with misfits such as "ravers". He may come to class all drugged up, or, as someone mentioned before, he may want to learn martial arts so he can defend himself against rival drug dealers and dissatisfied customers. Exercise caution!"

That's just hilariously close-minded. :)

Fu-Pow wrote:

"Daredevil-you cannot abuse drugs and do martial arts at the same time. You are deluding yourself if you think that is true."

There's a huge difference in what drugs you're doing. Smoking a joint is very different from doing E, and smoking crack or doing heroin are alltogether different things. The one thing they have most in common with each other is that they're illegal. And law is soemthing we can debate forever .. personally, I see it only as a line that has to be drawn somewhere. I mean, alcohol isn't good for you, why isn't that illegal?

As to your point about doing MA and drugs, sure, they're going to put a damper on your training. It's not that it can't be done, though. I'm sure that anyone who advances in his martial art "career" will eventually come to a point where they'd want to drop that kind of stuff though, if that is what they end up valuing more. It's everybody's personal choice, though.

Anyway, MA have definately made my life healthier in many ways. Something about working with your body does make you health conscious. The same can happen with drugs, too, if somebody wants to take the "perhaps the art will heal him"-approach. :)

[Nutt'nhunny]

Its too expensive for young people to live on their own. Small houses are a million bucks. I know 24 year olds there waiting for their parents to go out of town so they can party.

Bars are way too expensive for people, even people that work at yahoo.


The answer? A 5 hour rave, 2 hits of E. Its a spiritual tribal experience in the zoo that is the bay area.

No problem, every culture has something like this. Its the imbalance of our society that we need to go outside our norms to get our needs met. In a perfect world, the local priest would be DJ ing and passing out the E

[harry_the_monk]

Honeysmacks, not quite sure what your on there, but that did actually happen here in the UK.
About 4/5 years ago a priest was arrested after doing that to his congregation(giving them E's.) Apparently got away with it for ages too, had loads of them at it apparently, can't remember all the details now though.
**Just reporting, not endorsing any arguments**

[EARTH DRAGON]

to judge someone by their cover there's a religous story that a priest stops a homeless man from entering his church in a upper class neighborhood, the priest says you are not allowed in here with that long beard, long hair, dirty robe and bare feet and sandals, what kind of place do you think this is? and what kinda person comes to church looking like that.......... the homeless man points to a picture of jesus wearing a long beard,long hair,dirty robe, bare feet and sandals and says... he does........... is he forbidden to, or is this not the man you worship.. point well taken!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net