the hells angel ad

[golden arhat]

i read a letter in the latest issue complaining about u using a known gang member to promote your magazine

i also think this is wrong not just because criminal gangs are just that CRIMINALS but also that your magazine is excellent and i dont think it should be associated with low lives such as him

[GeneChing]

Pick up on post 20 on our Hung Gar special issue thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40867&page=2).

[TenTigers]

HAMC is a motorcycle club. It is not a criminal organization. Although some of its members may or may not be, just like in the Police Department, or Congress.(Masons is not a secret organization, but an organization with secrets) You don't know the backraound of this particular member enough to say he is a criminal, let alone calling him a lowlife. I know members who have absolutely no criminal record whatsoever. Don't judge a book by its cover.
ok, now let's continue the debate....

[lunghushan]

Yes, even the British have a long history of war and conquest for profit, even encouraging privateering all in the name of the crown, yet we still talk to people from the U.K. :)

Don't judge an organization by a minority membership.

[golden arhat]

the hells angels are a motorcycle club ,granted
they r also a gang with a long history of violence and drugs
and although the man in the advert may have been a nice enough guy i dont think such a great magazine should associate itself IN ANY WAY with the a
group such as this
technically they are not necessarily a violent group
but they are a group with alot of violent members
same as the crips may be a group of people wearing blue who carry guns
we know that they are criminals

[lunghushan]

http://weeklywire.com/ww/09-22-97/knox_gamut.html

"doctors, lawyers, actors, engineers, salesmen, bankers, computer programmers—saddling up a whole raucous, pricey new wave of bikes"

You're about 25 years behind the days when the Hells Angels were some glorious criminal gang. Now it's a corporation. Not saying some of the members aren't allegedly crooks, but whatever.

http://www.hells-angels.com/

[lunghushan]

That was an interesting post there on that other thread, Gene.

Yeah I guess I don't really understand people being against this, because growing up around San Francisco there's a lot of mixing of culture, and many things while technically illegal, I guess, were just part of the culture. Hells Angels were one thing that was part of the culture.

If I didn't associate with anybody who did anything 'wrong', underage drinking, speeding, cheating, drugs or anything, I probably wouldn't have had any friends. Or maybe only my Mormon friend Mike.

I've met crooked cops and I met some pretty righteous criminals. I don't think you should judge people by the uniform they're wearing.

People in jail aren't necessarily bad people but rather people in bad circumstance. They follow their own codes. I'm not condoning what they do, just saying, walk 1000 miles in their shoes before judging.

A lot of people I met got some minor infraction for bad judgement, wound up in jail for some reason, lost their driver's license or had it suspended, and from there it was a downhill criminal spiral because once you're in the system it's very hard to get out. Economically, socially, psychologically, everything.

Then there are some bad people who do very bad things to people. Those people you stay away from.

Anyway I don't expect anybody else to get it, but thanks for that post on the other thread, Gene.

[TenTigers]

well said.

[David Jamieson]

That was an interesting post there on that other thread, Gene.

Yeah I guess I don't really understand people being against this, because growing up around San Francisco there's a lot of mixing of culture, and many things while technically illegal, I guess, were just part of the culture. Hells Angels were one thing that was part of the culture.

If I didn't associate with anybody who did anything 'wrong', underage drinking, speeding, cheating, drugs or anything, I probably wouldn't have had any friends. Or maybe only my Mormon friend Mike.

I've met crooked cops and I met some pretty righteous criminals. I don't think you should judge people by the uniform they're wearing.

People in jail aren't necessarily bad people but rather people in bad circumstance. They follow their own codes. I'm not condoning what they do, just saying, walk 1000 miles in their shoes before judging.

A lot of people I met got some minor infraction for bad judgement, wound up in jail for some reason, lost their driver's license or had it suspended, and from there it was a downhill criminal spiral because once you're in the system it's very hard to get out. Economically, socially, psychologically, everything.

Then there are some bad people who do very bad things to people. Those people you stay away from.

Anyway I don't expect anybody else to get it, but thanks for that post on the other thread, Gene.

I feel compelled to speak to this because I see it as rife with misconception and soft on reality. Nothing personal, just saying.

Criminality as part of culture is not acceptable in the context of the social construct. It's not a cultural thing, it's a problem and it needs to be dealt with.

Degrees of badness are one thing as is teenage rebellion. This is many degrees less than manufacturing and distributing street drugs that can end in fatality all too often. Also, it doesn't approach the level of controlling prostitution and other majour felonies that are commited daily by groups such as the hells angels and their ilk. You're kidding yourself if you think anyone iof these guys is "just a biker" and not involved in the criminal activities opf the greater organization. You cannot be a member without actually being involved at some level and therefore, each member is culpable for the actions of the organization they support and represent.


People put on a uniform for exactly the reason of identification with the group the uniform belongs to. The HA uniform represents what the club has done. The track record of being and organized criminal organization is all too clear. Crooked cops should face the highest degree of punishment from the law when caught. It is a complete abbheration and abuse when these people commit crimes. there is really no such thing as a righteous criminal. Sounds a bit romantic of a view, and entirely off base. Most people in Jail are there because they have commited a crime, been tried for it and sentenced and found guilty. They have been judged and they are now doing time for their deeds.

Innocent people don't belong in jail, but, how many innocent people are in jail? all of them? most of them? would you believe and infintesimally low amount? like 1 in a million? that's probably closer to the mark. When the spiral down happens, it is because of inaction or action that has already taken place. the world doesn't happen to you, you happen to the world.

In my opinion, it is not being "gotten" by you dude. Stay away from bad people? good advice, but if your perception is as skewed as that, how the heck can you tell who's really bad and who is only a little bad and who is not bad at all.

crime is crime. HA are not just some happy go lucky bunch of pals wearing leather and riding for charities. they create and distribute, import and ruins peoples lives by pushing drugs, extortion, prostitution, theft, you name it and they've done it. The best advice I can give a HA who has no criminal record and wants to remain as righteous as possible as a human being is to get the heck out of that organization and quickly. Because that is the downward spiral.

[lunghushan]

David, you just don't get the economic reality.

When I was in jail overnight and part of the morning for my drunk in public, which I wasn't even drunk for (which is part of how I know that a lot of cops are crooked, non-caring people), I talked to people there.

A lot of people there get sucked in by the economic reality. Let's say you have to drive for work. For some reason you get a suspended license, if you don't drive to work, you lose your job.

So you have to continue to drive to work, which can land you in jail again. If you are in jail and cannot get to work, you can lose your job.

Then what do you do for money? No work, no money, no eat. You're surrounded by criminals who are constantly talking about crime and criminal skills. So a lot of people, rather than starve, do some crime, which a lot of time winds them back in jail again.

It's a social, pathological thing, a downward spiral that a lot of guys got into and couldn't get out of.

Anyway, whatever. I don't expect anybody on here to understand. If one thing I've come across on this forum, most of you people don't carefully consider anything.

[GeneChing]

What if the president of the United States had a criminal record? Well, that's a red herring, but I just couldn't resist....

[lunghushan]

And what about people who are brought up with bad parents, or fall in with a bad crowd, so they get involved with crime early on in their lives?

Anyway, Bush had a DUI.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Lung...what you state are what we call in my profession 'typical criminal thinking errors', eg. criminal says: I do crime because everyone I know does crime, or I have to drive to work, so I drive (even though I got suspended for a HTA conviction), or I do crime so I can get money to live and eat...and the list goes on and on. On the other side is non-criminal thinking eg. Just because everyone in my neighbourhood does crime, does not mean I have to, I need my car to maintain my employment and so I will not do anything to jeopardise my being able to drive, I need to live and eat, so I work to get paid. Anything other than this way of thinking is just a cop-out (no pun intended). Criminal thinking errors will lead you into criminal activity sooner or later. Any relapse prevention plan has to address the thinking errors to bring about a change in this and a road to non-criminality.

The HA corporation is a criminal corporation/organization...and yes they have professionals in their rank and file...professionals doing criminal activity.

Is not DUI in the states a HTA (Highway Traffic Act) conviction and not a criminal code conviction (unless there are extenuating circumstances such as criminal negligence cause death)!

Yes, there a number of people who do not as you state "carefully consider anything"...and by your posts on this topic...you have fit right into that.

[golden arhat]

this isnt a dig at ppl who have fallen in with the wrong crowd
its about what we should or should not be encouraging

i dont think this magazine should have anything to do with the hells angels or any other criminal group.
the people in the group may have just been unfortunate but that doesnt make what they do okay
or does it ?

[lunghushan]

Is not DUI in the states a HTA (Highway Traffic Act) conviction and not a criminal code conviction (unless there are extenuating circumstances such as criminal negligence cause death)!

Yes, there a number of people who do not as you state "carefully consider anything"...and by your posts on this topic...you have fit right into that.

Canadian code says that if you have a DUI in the U.S. EVER you have to register with the Canadian authorities and you can be excluded from visiting Canada from the U.S.

If that isn't considered bad, I don't know what is.

Whatever. I don't condone what they do. I'm just saying that normally not so bad guys get caught in the system and can't get out. The number of people in U.S. jails is huge.

If you don't understand, you don't understand. It's okay. The U.S. has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world. It doesn't have as much of a social safety net as socialized countries like Canada.

[lunghushan]

this isnt a dig at ppl who have fallen in with the wrong crowd
its about what we should or should not be encouraging

i dont think this magazine should have anything to do with the hells angels or any other criminal group.
the people in the group may have just been unfortunate but that doesnt make what they do okay
or does it ?

No, but do you think people can be helped? Do you think it's possible for former criminals to stop doing crime?

By branding them criminals for life you just keep them being criminals. What are they supposed to do for a living if they can't get a job, if the entire society thinks they're bad?

In the U.S. if you have a felony it's very hard for you to get a job. You can get a felony just from stealing a T.V. or something.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

No, but do you think people can be helped? Do you think it's possible for former criminals to stop doing crime?

By branding them criminals for life you just keep them being criminals. What are they supposed to do for a living if they can't get a job, if the entire society thinks they're bad?

In the U.S. if you have a felony it's very hard for you to get a job. You can get a felony just from stealing a T.V. or something.

Since I deal with criminality in my profession, I know I understand. From your posts, I see that you do not understand and 'that' is not okay, as it will lead you down a wrong path sooner or later.
Actually, where I live, has just as high or a higher incarceration rate than the USA.

People of course can change, this is what I do in my profession, facilitate change from criminal thinking and criminality to non-criminal thinking and non-criminality...but they have to want to for the programming/counselling to effect the greatest change.

[lunghushan]

Since I deal with criminality in my profession, I know I understand. From your posts, I see that you do not understand and 'that' is not okay, as it will lead you down a wrong path sooner or later.
Actually, where I live, has just as high or a higher incarceration rate than the USA.

People of course can change, this is what I do in my profession, facilitate change from criminal thinking and criminality to non-criminal thinking and non-criminality...but they have to want to for the programming/counselling to effect the greatest change.

No, I quickly found out from seeing the people in the jail, running into the crooked cops, and from others that I do not want to be in jail or deal with that mess.

I have several friends who are probation officers, and I find they're nice people. They agree that most people won't change, but they also agree that sometimes people's circumstances even the area in which they live contribute to their problems.

Anyway, whatever. This doesn't matter to me. If you don't get it, you don't get it. :)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

No, I quickly found out from seeing the people in the jail, running into the crooked cops, and from others that I do not want to be in jail or deal with that mess.

I have several friends who are probation officers, and I find they're nice people. They agree that most people won't change, but they also agree that sometimes people's circumstances even the area in which they live contribute to their problems.

Anyway, whatever. This doesn't matter to me. If you don't get it, you don't get it. :)

Well, speaking as a Probation Officer...it is you who has not yet grasped it.

[lunghushan]

Well, speaking as a Probation Officer...it is you who has not yet grasped it.

Okay, then tell me what exactly I am not grasping. ???

So for example, one of the guys that I was in the cell with, after I left the drunk tank with my still drunk friend (he was totally smashed the next day), was in for driving with a suspended license.

He got a suspended license because he didn't renew his license. He didn't renew his license because he didn't have the $$$, because it was a bad economy.

He said he was going to lose his job because he was out of work that day.

I don't see how he could have avoided that, really. You have to have minimum time on the job to get unemployment in the U.S., like 6 months or something, they don't just give you a license.

If he doesn't work, he doesn't eat.

So how oh esteemed Probation Officer, should he have handled that? And when he's out of jail, nowhere to go, no $$$, what is he supposed to do? Go to some homeless shelter where there are criminals who will hurt you? Homeless shelters in CA had lots of people stabbing people???

If you don't give people options then they're much more likely to make your 'criminal thinking error'.

Personally I'm so sick of the system that I'm not going to do crime. If I can't work, I can't eat. If I can't work, if I can't eat, I'm just going to starve. That's my decision.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Okay, then tell me what exactly I am not grasping. ???

So for example, one of the guys that I was in the cell with, after I left the drunk tank with my still drunk friend (he was totally smashed the next day), was in for driving with a suspended license.

He got a suspended license because he didn't renew his license. He didn't renew his license because he didn't have the $$$, because it was a bad economy.

He said he was going to lose his job because he was out of work that day.

I don't see how he could have avoided that, really. You have to have minimum time on the job to get unemployment in the U.S., like 6 months or something, they don't just give you a license.

If he doesn't work, he doesn't eat.

So how oh esteemed Probation Officer, should he have handled that? And when he's out of jail, nowhere to go, no $$$, what is he supposed to do? Go to some homeless shelter where there are criminals who will hurt you? Homeless shelters in CA had lots of people stabbing people???

If you don't give people options then they're much more likely to make your 'criminal thinking error'.

Personally I'm so sick of the system that I'm not going to do crime. If I can't work, I can't eat. If I can't work, if I can't eat, I'm just going to starve. That's my decision.

Esteemed...my colleagues will get a smile from that one :cool:

1. I strongly suspect from the state you found him in that there is more to his not having a license than just not renewing his license...like maybe suspended for DUI.


2. How could he not renew his license because of a cash problem, when he wound up in the cell by 'driving to work' while under a license suspension. But if cash was still an issue for what ever problem...maybe a bus or carpool or a friend.

3. when out, look for another job, go to a church, get a job at tim hortons (only in Canada, don't know the equivalent in the US)

And yes, I do agree that people need options.


Same or similar case to receive unemployment here in Canada

[lunghushan]

Don't get me wrong. I like probation officers. Probation officers are like the good people who help out criminals once the cops screw them over.

But the economic situation in the U.S. is what creates criminals, that and the breakdown of the family and too many freedoms and bad judgement and all that.

Ironically my drunk friend's dad was a probation officer (now retired). He said that the reason we got picked up was because of where we were walking home, and he knew the problems of the cops in that area.

He said that particular area was just a bad area to be in, and it was very easy for people to get in trouble that lived there.

Anyway, I don't know the solution. But without understanding the problem of crime you will never understand the solution. And I don't chalk it all up to bad judgement.

Yes, there is bad judgement involved but a lot of it is the economic thing. Crime tends to go up as the economy goes down.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Don't get me wrong. I like probation officers. Probation officers are like the good people who help out criminals once the cops screw them over.

But the economic situation in the U.S. is what creates criminals, that and the breakdown of the family and too many freedoms and bad judgement and all that.

Ironically my drunk friend's dad was a probation officer (now retired). He said that the reason we got picked up was because of where we were walking home, and he knew the problems of the cops in that area.

He said that particular area was just a bad area to be in, and it was very easy for people to get in trouble that lived there.

Anyway, I don't know the solution. But without understanding the problem of crime you will never understand the solution. And I don't chalk it all up to bad judgement.

Yes, there is bad judgement involved but a lot of it is the economic thing. Crime tends to go up as the economy goes down.

A bad economy does not make criminals. However, it can be a factorial influence.

I do agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do not blame the police too much...look what they have to deal with. I have met decent officers and those that are no better than the criminals they arrest. Some are modest, some have egos through the ceiling, some use just enough force, others go overboard. It is like any other job or profession...good employees and not good employees.

As a Probation Officer, I am automatically a Peace Officer. Yes I help them think better, but I also have to help protect society and so I do breach and send them back to court which can also mean custody.

[lunghushan]

Yes, it is a bad job and a lot of stress and all that so I don't blame them entirely. Without cops things would be chaos.

Anyway, the cops in my town all seem to be pretty professional and have a good attitude. They also all seem to be in good shape, which is rare. Maybe the fact that a lot of them bike around helps that out.

[Justaguy]

I was walking past the local Hells Angels club house early one morning on my way to a kung fu class. I was carrying a cup of coffee and eating a bagel, and my hands were pretty full. So, when I dropped a napkin I couldn't pick it up and just left it there. Looking up I saw a Hells Angel standing in the doorway, covered in tattoos and looking every bit the stereotype of the tough as nails outlaw biker. The look of disghust on his face as he looked at me was priceless. I turned back, rearranged the stuff in my hands and picked the litter up. I appologized, but he just turned away shaking his head...

Maybe all Hells Angels aren't so civic minded, but I'm pretty sure I was the degenerate in that encounter.

I work at a nonprofit that helps people coming out of prison find jobs. There are definitely a lot of people who I would call bad coming through my office. But the vast majority of them are in there for drug crimes. The kind of things that someone who comes from a "better background" can sum up with "When I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible" and go on to become President without people making too much of a big deal about it.

There's a guy who got there recently who teaches Shaolin. I haven't seen any of his moves, but from talking to him he's clearly been working at it for most of his life. I call him Sifu, same as I would who teaches kung fu and has spent a long time working on thier art.

As far as the Hells Angels go, I don't know any and I don't know how much their general reputation is earned, and how much is hype. It seems that in Canada they are a criminal enterprise - in the US there are allegations here and there. But at the end of the day, if you don't have anything specific to say about the individual in the mag, I wouldn't worry about it.

[lunghushan]

People are people. You know, they might do bad things and make bad decisions, but they are still people.

There was a show on T.V. the other day about how people in a factory farm were killing pigs by shooting them in the head with a bolt gun. If they didn't die they'd stand on them and asphyxiate them and then shoot them again.

They missed with one poor pig and it was crying and they just let it lay there for a long time. Unreal.

If a pig is sick a lot of time they'll just let them die off in a corner somewhere with no food or anything.

Those people are worse than many of the people in prisons.

[@PLUGO]

well, he DID have a very nice bike.:cool:

[golden arhat]

im not saying that all criminals are bad i know there are reasons im just saying that kung fu magazine shouldnt be encouraging it and thats what is wrong ok my mum is a prison officer i know why people commit crime BUT THATS NOT THE ISSUE the issue is kfm using a hells angel in an advert implying that one being in a gang is ok (it isnt) and 2 giving out the impression that the hells angels are a good group (they arent)

why did they decide to use a hells angel ?
but why not a crip or a blood or a triad ?

why? because the hells angels ahave a romance about them that theyre some sort of heroes

in reality they are a gang just like any other and we should recognise that they are not some righteous organisation ask yourself
why wouldnt u use another gang in your ads and u will probably find the reason u should not use a hells angel

[lunghushan]

It's called Freedom of Speech.

I for one am against illegal drugs. But I'm not going to gripe about 'High Times' being for illegal drug use.

Why?

Because it's called Freedom of Speech.

There are people against martial arts because they think they are violent, but I don't want to get rid of martial arts magazines just for those people.

Otherwise you have a very boring political correct society. There's enough of that already without encouraging it.

'Thought Police' are so boring. Instead of railing against having it in the magazine, how about you just rail against them, and Gene prints it in the magazine? Which is what happened, right? (Actually it was railing against being in the magazing and Gene printed that).

Anyway, suppression of speech is boring. I think just because of your comments against this I will subscribe just to show my support.

[golden arhat]

i love the magazine too please do subscribe
i just didnt like the ad and thought it was in bad taste

[David Jamieson]

It's called Freedom of Speech.

I for one am against illegal drugs. But I'm not going to gripe about 'High Times' being for illegal drug use.

Why?

Because it's called Freedom of Speech.

There are people against martial arts because they think they are violent, but I don't want to get rid of martial arts magazines just for those people.

Otherwise you have a very boring political correct society. There's enough of that already without encouraging it.

'Thought Police' are so boring. Instead of railing against having it in the magazine, how about you just rail against them, and Gene prints it in the magazine? Which is what happened, right? (Actually it was railing against being in the magazing and Gene printed that).

Anyway, suppression of speech is boring. I think just because of your comments against this I will subscribe just to show my support.

ok, where to start. lol.

Not supporting a group that has a conflicting ideology to yours is not suppression, It is non-support.

Should Kungfu magazine have a Nambla member in a tai chi pose? How would that make you feel?

degrees, you need to understand degrees.

there is a difference between someone who is starving who steals bread and someone who manufactures meth and distributes it for a living.

there is a difference between not supporting a group and oppressing or suppressing their rights.

You guys need to understand teh real face of the HA. I don't think you do. I think maybe you have had some good experiences withindividual members or maybe even through loose association with one or two of the members.

make no mistake, these are not your friends and the organization they are in will dictate to them what is what and if they were told to off you, then your days are numbered.

Guys, the reality is sooooooo different from the romantic view that groups like these would have you buy into. The whole rebel without a cause, ride free live free nonsense thet the HA robotically pump out when questioned about their organization and it's workings.

the obfuscation they provide at their own website regarding what it is to be a member, how to become a member or how to start a chapter.

the standard answer is "if you don't know, you probably shouldn't ask"

what does this imply to you when compared to asking these fairly innocuous question of any other club like say Lions Club or Kinsmen and so on? Leave a lot of room to speculate doesn't it.

Robin hoods they ain't boys. Nobody here is suppressing the hells angels rights to free speech. they have a website, they publish stuff, they sell merchandise with their logio and axioms and so on. I wouldn't print one word of their crap on my sites or anything. I wouldn't reiterate their views on anything, in anyway and in any form. Am I suppressing their free speech because I don't support their views? No. Am I suppressing their free speech because I don't want to here their crap and I don't want to find it in a crossover form in other areas? No. I don't want this group infiltrating every corner of society and franbkly I would rather have them in areas that can be easily identified and breeched by police organizations.

i would like to see the collapse of them to be honest simply because of the lives they have brought to ruination.

If you spend too much time second thinking even after being presented the evidence time and again over numerous incidences and years, then perhaps you are not the right person to make any decision whatsoever about this.

It is something that is not grey in my eyes. It has come to a point where it is very black and white what this group stands for.

as for the rest, criminal thinking is always looking for the easy way and almost always at the expense of someone else well being.

Highway traffic act offenses are the abuse of the priviledge of driving. If you screw up your priviledge, it is no one's fault but your own. period. If you need to get to work, find another way.

[Faruq]

After reading the "Chan Tai San Stories" thread, I wonder how many of the masters featured throughout the years were known Chinese gangsters? I mean if featuring a criminal is wrong in one context, how is it not wrong in another? I personally don't have a problem in either instance.


i read a letter in the latest issue complaining about u using a known gang member to promote your magazine

i also think this is wrong not just because criminal gangs are just that CRIMINALS but also that your magazine is excellent and i dont think it should be associated with low lives such as him

[golden arhat]

i could not agree with dj more
he put into words exactly what i was thinking
well said

[David Jamieson]

After reading the "Chan Tai San Stories" thread, I wonder how many of the masters featured throughout the years were known Chinese gangsters? I mean if featuring a criminal is wrong in one context, how is it not wrong in another? I personally don't have a problem in either instance.

Well, we are wondering as well. the thing is, it is not safe to assume in the case where there is no promotion of the gang or it's symbology or it's ideology.

It is indeed wrong to feature a criminal. But what of a reconciled and turned around man? Now that would be something wouldn't it. Someone who actually used Kungfu to turn their life around and put it all behind them and start in a positive direction.

But, let's not play guessing games, no one is with the HA, I mean, there he is, wearing their colours. Quite blatant.

As for criminal kungfu masters, they aren't as common as all that. Take a look at teh codes of various and sundry schools, the mo duk, the wu de expressly, in almost every single instance forbids criminal behaviour. So, it's not likely you'll find them for the most part and you certainly won't find them promoting their gang or the mnagazine promoting the gang.

people change.

[Faruq]

I don't know that the majority of masters in the Chinatowns teach in schools. From the CTS article, it seems many don't teach at all, and many that do teach teach in 'associations' or 'organisations'. I don't have a problem with it, and if I did, I didn't invent gong fu to begin with and don't have the copyright on it, so who would I be to complain?




Well, we are wondering as well. the thing is, it is not safe to assume in the case where there is no promotion of the gang or it's symbology or it's ideology.

It is indeed wrong to feature a criminal. But what of a reconciled and turned around man? Now that would be something wouldn't it. Someone who actually used Kungfu to turn their life around and put it all behind them and start in a positive direction.

But, let's not play guessing games, no one is with the HA, I mean, there he is, wearing their colours. Quite blatant.

As for criminal kungfu masters, they aren't as common as all that. Take a look at teh codes of various and sundry schools, the mo duk, the wu de expressly, in almost every single instance forbids criminal behaviour. So, it's not likely you'll find them for the most part and you certainly won't find them promoting their gang or the mnagazine promoting the gang.

people change.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, David, I'm not interested in Nambla members unless they can fight well.

Honestly I wouldn't mind MORE criminals in the magazine if they highlighted their fighting methods. That would be worth an issue unto itself.

Because who are you going to go up against on the street? Criminals, right?

Law abiding citizens don't really go around attacking people, do they? If they did then they would be criminals.

[GeneChing]

...is what the next "find your peace in practice" ad will be. Fuki is going to be a tough act to follow. :rolleyes:

[@PLUGO]

um . . . I have a couple of ideas... but it would require a bit of driving.

[golden arhat]

how about
a goth going through the iron wire set or a bagua routine ?:D

[David Jamieson]

if someone wants to be a cop, then go be a cop. training in kungfu doesn't make you a crime busting hero.

deliberately looking for crimes to stop is something that is only done by police or in comic books and when it's done by a regular joe like you or me, it's tantamount to mere misguided vigilanteism.

criminals practicing martial arts and the martial arts themselves are actually disconnected. I think that ultimately, that's the point of the ad, i just don't think that that sort of perspective is taken by most people when presented with that imagery and ergo, my implicitly being against the ad in and of itself.

people aren't hip enough to get it at that level and it likely shouldn't be presented in such fashion because of that fundamental lacking.

having said that, how about cops doing taichi together? even time? :p
what about a dude in a suite on his lunch break going through some postures in a park while other people walk around.

how about kids? how about soccer moms? wahta bout a row of apple pies on a window, mom, a baseball game and tai chi all worked into teh same montage? that would totally speak to a good chunk of your reeaders. lol

anywa, i've said my piece ( a couple of times now), im done with this.

[herb ox]

people aren't hip enough to get it at that level and it likely shouldn't be presented in such fashion because of that fundamental lacking.



I understood the context of the ad from the beginning, so does that make me hip? It didn't take much to understand that even a seemingly hard-arsed Hell's Angel has a soft side.

Frankly, I think you guys have spent waaay too much time arguing this one.

Hate the game, not the playa'!

I didn't much care to see the CEO of AOL on the cover of the mag, either. I dispise big business and mega-corporations. And yet, I still read the article and realized, even if I disagree with someone's lifestyle, we can still have a meeting of the minds thru a common practice. Let's build community rather than highlight our pre-judged differences.

find your peace in practice!

~ox claat

[b82rez]

To be honest, I find it very difficult to listen to the "my life sucks" type of excuses that people proclaim as reasons for criminal behavior. I may have been raised comfortably but my parents were not. They came over from India with not much more than determination and worked HARD for everything they earned. At college, I was lucky enough to meet several friends who themselves were from disadvantaged backgrounds, but who worked HARD and made it for themselves.

How come they decided to be legit while their peers decided to sell drugs?

On the other side of the world (China, India), the majority of society is content with living simply. People will work hard and honest even if it's just for the next meal.

Whatever the causes, people in this country are (for the most part) always looking for the easy way out (yeah yeah, profit maximization, I'm not just speaking economically).

lunghushan: You got another thing coming if you think one drunken night in a county jail gives you insight into the criminal mind. And the economic situation in China, India, Africa, South America, etc, etc is FAR WORSE than it is in this country. At least in this county, if you want a meal or a place to sleep chances are you can find one.

You know if someone really is trying to make ends meet...all laws should be obeyed, money should NOT be spent on alcohol or drugs but should be saved for investment or for things like License Renewals. Excuses are for stalling, not for solving anything.

DJ said enough about the HA to explain why promotion of their organization is bad. MA is about self-discipline and understanding yourself and your relation to others in a more peaceful and complete manner. HA represents the opposite...it has no place here.

Oh...and NO, KFM should not showcase criminal fighters who hurt people for their own pleasure or purpose. But if you want to analyze competition fighters who may have had criminal pasts...that might be different.

[GeneChing]

...you're one digit off, you know. ;)

Find your peace in practice is one of our more artsy image ads. We've only done two. I'm delighted to see that the second one, this HA one, did exactly what could art should do. It stimulated intercourse. It's all about stimulating intercourse. The message is ambiguous but that's also a common quality of art. Good art forces you to put yourself into the work. It's a dialogue between artist and viewer. It also doesn't need to please anyone. If anything, it should be challenging.

We've shot the next FYPIP ad. It's coming at you soon. But as Design Sifu puts it, it's wholesome.

[Banjos_dad]

how dare someone have the audacity to try and improve himself and maybe learn a different perspective in the process.
hmmph! the very idea :rolleyes:

** note: the content above is intended as 'sarcasm.' **
(This disclaimer added for the perceptively challenged.)

[golden arhat]

not a clue what that sarcasm is in relation to
i started this thread AGES ago and people generally stopped talkin on it a while back lol

[Faruq]

Just out of curiosity, some Canadians told me that in Canada the Hindostani are looked to as big time crime bosses, as the Sicilian Mafia was in America. Does that hold any water? It doesn't seem right to me because they make it sound like India is a land ruled by regional warlords who buy the politicians, and make their mountains of money growing the narcotic plants that are harvested, processed and eventually sold here in the U.S. and other countries. It just seems that if that were really the case, Indians and Pakistani's would have the tough guy reputation, rather than being expected to do so well in school and medicine. "Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle" wouldn't have been so popular if those stereotypes didn't exist to parody. Right?


To be honest, I find it very difficult to listen to the "my life sucks" type of excuses that people proclaim as reasons for criminal behavior. I may have been raised comfortably but my parents were not. They came over from India with not much more than determination and worked HARD for everything they earned. At college, I was lucky enough to meet several friends who themselves were from disadvantaged backgrounds, but who worked HARD and made it for themselves.

How come they decided to be legit while their peers decided to sell drugs?

On the other side of the world (China, India), the majority of society is content with living simply. People will work hard and honest even if it's just for the next meal.

Whatever the causes, people in this country are (for the most part) always looking for the easy way out (yeah yeah, profit maximization, I'm not just speaking economically).

lunghushan: You got another thing coming if you think one drunken night in a county jail gives you insight into the criminal mind. And the economic situation in China, India, Africa, South America, etc, etc is FAR WORSE than it is in this country. At least in this county, if you want a meal or a place to sleep chances are you can find one.

You know if someone really is trying to make ends meet...all laws should be obeyed, money should NOT be spent on alcohol or drugs but should be saved for investment or for things like License Renewals. Excuses are for stalling, not for solving anything.

DJ said enough about the HA to explain why promotion of their organization is bad. MA is about self-discipline and understanding yourself and your relation to others in a more peaceful and complete manner. HA represents the opposite...it has no place here.

Oh...and NO, KFM should not showcase criminal fighters who hurt people for their own pleasure or purpose. But if you want to analyze competition fighters who may have had criminal pasts...that might be different.