"Seven Star Women's Kung Fu"

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym3xzCbAsio

Is it kung fu?

Comments anyone?

[MasterKiller]

I vote No.

[Donkwoon]

That look kind of "Kenpoish" to me. Maybe she was nervous but she didn't do her form very well.

[SifuAbel]

looks like krotty.

[Emeraldphoenix]

That just makes me sad. Poor girl.

[Radplaiddude]

I didnt see and Mantis hand or foot work at all.

[lunghushan]

http://www.slate.com/id/55898/

http://www.judysbook.com/members/34974/posts/2006/3/280770/

They were the only place that had open sparring when I first moved to Seattle.

Of course, they don't allow men. Not sure that's so smart considering then the women won't know the strength required to fend off a real male attacker, but whatever. :)

[Yao Sing]

Not just Karate, made up Karate. Even Karate while holding a fan. :eek:

[lunghushan]

Supposedly it's Kajukenbo ... not krotty.

[Yum Cha]

Looks to me like some kind of Chinese style, but done with all the character and style of karate, i.e. some Karate student learned some Kung Fu forms but not the essential character that went with it and hung up a shingle.

[lunghushan]

ka-ju-ken-bo

karate-judo-kenpo-boxing.

Or something like that. A mix of things from Hawaii.

Well at least we all know what we're missing, I guess. It doesn't look like they have a clue as to what would be required to pull their techniques off on a resisting attacker.

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.7starwomenskungfu.org/instructors.htm Its a japanese system trying to pass itself off as kung fu, or at least they say they do kung fu there. its not a seven star mantis school.

Hey if it empowers women and has a good training regimen then more power to them. of course they should really call it something other than seven star. i thought i was going to see some mantis work in there. NOT. TWS

[lunghushan]

http://www.7starwomenskungfu.org/instructors.htm Its a japanese system trying to pass itself off as kung fu, or at least they say they do kung fu there. its not a seven star mantis school.

Hey if it empowers women and has a good training regimen then more power to them. of course they should really call it something other than seven star. i thought i was going to see some mantis work in there. NOT. TWS

Well it seemed pretty much like if they only trained with women they'd be clueless as to how to apply it against a resisting attacker.

And if the demo is any indication, she might as well be taking sewing for all the self defense she's not learning. But there's actually a lot of that around Seattle, non-martial martial arts.

[Oso]

OMFG...i pretty much agree with neilyholt.

they are just as bad as any, ANY, school that isolates itself. they are not introducing enough variables to make their training valid.

empowerment of women is a good thing to a point. beyond making them comfortable enough to even think about training hard...they need to train against the hardest opponent they are likely to encounter...and it's not likely that's going to be another woman.

[TenTigers]

it is definately NOT a karate school passing itself off as Kung-Fu. Karate isn't that bad. They say they are from Kajukenbo, but I have seen much better stuff from them. These people are like bad kenpo-probably some beginner in a McDojo who got to green belt decided they were a master and created their own system. It is * udder nonesense.


*udder is intentionally misspelled:p

[Su Lin]

Hmmm, a school just for women, I would hate to train just with women. Not just for whole knowing what its like to fend off an attacker, but just generally .I realise that it can be quite intimidating going up against men (as I discussed in the Ive Lost my Bottle thread!) but I cant really see the advantages of just training with women. If there was a club that admitted men only we would probably go mad about it, unless they do admit men of course!
Not sure what style its supposed to be, she doesn't look as though she is putting that much into it, or that the form doesn't require much energy to be put into it either.
Nope, not a women only club. Bad idea.

[Royal Dragon]

I personally don't see any Kung Fu in the Demo. The fan looks like a mix of Karate, and some sort of dance, but it's not Kung Fu at all.

Calling themselves Kung Fu is very misleading, and adding in the "Seven Star" part is down right deceptive in my view. It's like they are trying to pass themselves off as a Seven Star Preying Mantis school at first glance, when inside they don't do anything remotely Kung Fu, let alone teach anything resembling real Seven Star mantis. They use the name because authentic Seven Star mantis is very well known, and has good marketing appeal.

I am thinking of E-mailing them, and letting them see this thread to see what it is they have to say for themselves.

[David Jamieson]

meh. who cares, it beats a quilting bee club. lol

give the people what they want. :D

[SevenStar]

It's not supposed to be mantis. I named it sevenstar after the name I use online. It's a blend of things I've trained over the years, and at advanced levels, there is grappling and muay thai included. Stop hating on my school, guys.

[lunghushan]

It's not supposed to be mantis. I named it sevenstar after the name I use online. It's a blend of things I've trained over the years, and at advanced levels, there is grappling and muay thai included. Stop hating on my school, guys.

??? This is your school? Is that a joke?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

roflcopter (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i35/FeZo/roflcopter_bl.gif)

[cjurakpt]

it's a blend of things I've trained over the years,.

does that include the cosmotology classes?

[David Jamieson]

There's a lot of people out there who do cardio kickboxing, cardio boxing, and so on that really think they are developing fight strategies. when it is mixed in with a little spirituality and what not, aromatheraphy etc etc it is a very appealing thing to a great many people.

most people would opt for that level of comfort in their training and that is where the mistake is.

eating nails is not what a great majority of training is about. It is also clear that it's not what that club is about, or any number of other places. regardless of styles or non styles or what have you.

there is no "one" correct way. there may very well be something of value there. Is it of value to you is the question.

Quite a lot of people do martial arts because it is a different way of keeping fit and it's something they enjoy. They are not in it to become the next ufc champ. In fact, the amount of people who practice martial arts compared to the amount of people who train to fight competitively is so vast it is staggerring.

How many ufc fighters on the circuits? I'm going to guess it is less in number than the membership of even just this board and that's inclusive to all the alter egos that are here.

bagging on crap is silly. It's like complaing that the grass is not green enough.

[EarthDragon]

LOLOLOL sevenstar? pleae tell me that is not your school... OMG
WOW and people wonder why kung fu has a bad name in some cities.

The funny thing was that her moves looked more like hand to hand combat from taekwondo than karate, she wore a chinese frog button uniform with a japanese cotton obi but then called it a form????? WTF? problem is this is what a lot of people are learnig and beging taught . This is why there needs to be an orginization to control who teaches and is allowed to open a school.

[Yao Sing]

This is why there needs to be an orginization to control who teaches and is allowed to open a school.

Dangerous words there my friend. :confused:

[EarthDragon]

dangerous for whom? You have to have a license to drive, do plumbing, electical and various other things yet anybody whether they suck, are black belts, learned from videos or whatever can open a school and teach whatever crap they know. pretty sad in my eyes.

if you cant cook and never been to culinary school and dont have a certification or a degree you cant open a resturant but yet we allow unqulalified tards open a school and try to educate other people in our society? and call it martial arts?

[Royal Dragon]

What about all the little family styles, that have no rank systems, or methods of certifcations?

[Yao Sing]

Think Modern Wushu (PRC's attempt to standardize and control CMA). Maybe the NY peeps can talk about attempts there to control the MA scene.

[Donkwoon]

dangerous for whom? You have to have a license to drive, do plumbing, electical and various other things yet anybody whether they suck, are black belts, learned from videos or whatever can open a school and teach whatever crap they know. pretty sad in my eyes.

if you cant cook and never been to culinary school and dont have a certification or a degree you cant open a resturant but yet we allow unqulalified tards open a school and try to educate other people in our society? and call it martial arts?

You make a good point but this is where I see a problem with that; The things that you listed are trades that are regulated for safety reasons. While you could say that the same could be said about martail arts, CMA for folks like myself is a spiritual practice as much as a life style and fitness program. Yes there is a ton of bullcrap out there and that's sad but it's much less scary than having some government body becoming involved with my spiritual life.

[EarthDragon]

I Understand your points. I too am spiritual and study my art for many other reasons than for fighting, However when you are in public and you are supposed to be an educator of any sort i.e martial arts teacher then there should be at least SOMETHING out there that regulates who is qualified and who is not.

I belong to the A.C.M.A.F american chinese martial arts federation and although i do not agree with alot of the things they do.... i do like that fact that you must have certain levels and qualifications to teach. this is my point. perhaps the people in that town have never been exposed to any real arts and they feel like they are actulally learning something as with the sincerity of that poor girl. i just think there needs to be just a little influence on who does what.

[cjurakpt]

the problem with regulation is who gets to say who's legitamate and who's not? also, what technically constitutes an MA? e.g. - Tai Chi was originally just a MA, but now it's for health, although some people still practice it as an MA, or both; are judo and TKD sports or a MAs? the distinctions are very blurry, so that's why it ain't gonna work to decide who can call what a MA;

the same thing goes for innstructors: at what level is someone considered eligible to instruct? what would be the criteria? skill? time spent training? what about someone who is very good and trained a long time, but has never been taught how to teach? what if you want to teach out of your backyard to a few private students instead of opening a public school? it's really too difficult to regulate this profession, IMHO...

so, unfortunately, the world of MA is one in which the concept of caveat emptor will continue to reign supreme...

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

what if you want to teach out of your backyard to a few private students instead of opening a public school?

i dont think earth dragon was really worried about those guys .... those guys aren't the problem. i'm not sure how i feel about regulation in this regard, but i see his point.

[5Animals1Path]

That's like the McDonald's and Steakhouse comparison someone else made in a different thread. Just because the Steakhouse is "better", doesn't mean McDonald's should be outlawed. Honestly, if someone else feels more comfortable being lied to, that's on them. If they really don't know any better, then I empathize, but half of life's lessons have to be smacked into you.

Regulations might get rid of the worst of something, but they've got a pretty big history of smacking down the best of it along the way.

[Yum Cha]

Here's the problem with the associations and organisations that claim to represent a "Standard"....

The frauds and wannabees are the first to join to get the credentials, and the old masters all reckon, "what do I need to pay those guys money for?"

[Dim Wit Mak]

A lot of folks here must have studied tiger styles. Extended claws and rip, rip, rip! That doesn't stand for rest in peace either.;)

[Eddie]

I think a womans only BJJ school would be very nice. With me as the instructor - then again, I dont know BJJ.... I'll hire an instructor, and be the fall guy.

Eddies Womans Only BJJ and Oil Wrestling School. ;)

[Ben Gash]

I think people's objections here are due to the fact that these women are living a dangerous fantasy. They really have little clue how to defend themselves, yet believe that they are skilled at it :(

[metsubushi]

ugh, I think people are being a little too hard on this. The lady only has two years of training and those other women have who knows how long. I won't say anything about how she moves, but who knows whether she can defend herself or not. If she knees a guy in the nuts and lives, well done.

[cjurakpt]

i dont think earth dragon was really worried about those guys .... those guys aren't the problem. i'm not sure how i feel about regulation in this regard, but i see his point.

oh, I certainly see his point in terms of wanting some sort of quality control - I mean, there are as many quality schools out there as there are total crapola ones - even from the same lineage; however, it's so hard to establsh quality, even with very standardized regs - e.g. - in the PT world, we all go to acrredited schools, do at least a year of internships and take a licensing exam - but the variety in terms of skill, or lack thereof, in the PT field is astounding - (personally, I wouldn't let 95% of the "manual therapy" PT's out there lay a finger on me...) - the only thing that is uniform, and what is non-existent in the MA world - if I treat you and mess you up, you can sue me, file a complaint with the licensing board, etc. - in other words, because I am a licensed profesional, the public has recourse if I do something innapropriate - now, wouldn't it be nice, if you studied self-defense, got your butt kicked somewhere and then could go and sue your instructor...?:D

[lunghushan]

Yeah even so-called military martial arts like Krav Maga the quality varies. I went to the local school and they totally sucked compared to the school in NY for example.

The only solution it seems would be to have combative standards, boards set up by people in the military or something, and you study with certified teachers who are tested, and there are standards, physical training standards and testing standards.

It would be difficult, but it is definitely possible.

The issue that I have with the training at this place is not so much the forms and all that, because those seem like okay forms -- it is just that she obviously has no idea the strength or force required to pull those techniques off against a resisting opponent.

Same thing with the Krav Maga school I went to locally. It was like Krav Maga for suburbanites. They were not even kicking the bag hard.

[Royal Dragon]

The thing that bothers me, is the head instructor calles herself a "Sifu" They have Chinese"ish" uniforms (With japanese belts :rolleyes: ), but they teach ka-ju-ken-bo, which is Karate-judo-kenpo-boxing. NOWHERE in kajukenbo, is there anything Chinese. Except for Boxing which is Western, it's all Japanese styles.

So where does the Chinese"ish" uniforms (with Japanese belt systems :rolleyes: ), and the Chinese term "Sifu" , and Kung Fu, (a CHINESE term as well), and even the use of "Seven Star" (imitateing a VERY famous Chinese art) come into play here?

It does not appear from thier web site that they teach Chinese Seven Star Kung Fu in anyway, shape or form. In fact, other than being hokey, and imitateing authentic Kung Fu schools with some titles, and uniform etc... they apear to be a totally unrelated kajukenbo school.

The whole things is decptive, and misleading if you ask me.

[Royal Dragon]

One more thing, from thier website


Kajukenbo is an eclectic martial art derived from aspects of karate, judo, jujitsu, kenpo and kung fu.

Reply]
It seems thier own understanding of what Kajukenbo is, is wrong. It's not Kung Fu, it's Western boxing. The "Bo" in Kajuken*Bo* is for Boxing. Other wise it would have been named Kajuken*Fu* or Kajuken*Ku* or some other varient derived from the words Kung, and Fu

How can they be legit, if they got the composition of thier own style WRONG!

[lunghushan]

Well the kempo supposedly is from China via the Okinawan temples. Chow or somebody supposedly was Chinese and had MA from his family or went back to a temple as well.

Who knows. Figuring out that stuff is pretty hard. Daniel K. Pai (Pai Lum) supposedly teaches (taught) Chinese styles and he was in Hawaii as well.

Ed Parker supposedly trained with Daniel K. Pai because Pai was an employee on their ranch.

[Dim Wit Mak]

It is very difficult to define "kung Fu" in terms of what is and what isn't. I have read many places that is means "diligent effort" or "hard Work". I can go along with that. Different styles look different, they train different, they criticize each other as not being "real Kung Fu". I read a huge p _ _ _ _ _ _ contest in some Ying Jao Pai material where masters were accusing each other of learning their Eagle Claw from tapes.

Some styles ridicule animal styles. There are many debates as to whose style is best. The MMA people say we dance real pretty, but can't fight. Traditional styles say that modern styles such as Shorin Kung Fu is not true Kung Fu and the list goes on and on.

Most people wouldn't have a problem with the title of Seven Star Eclectic Martial Arts, as long as the women were being taught effective self defense against Neanderthals. It is hard for me to judge anything by one short clip and one student. I personally don't have a problem with the term Kung Fu being applied, if some of the system is drawn from TCMA.

Also, Seven Star, has been a valued member of these forums for a long time. I would just ask this rhetorical question. Seven Star owes me no reply. I would hate to think that any young lady, or guy for that matter, would believe she can defend herself just by learning forms. Are realistic combat applications of these forms being practiced against resisting opponents?

Just my half cent worth.:)

[lunghushan]

Seven Star must have been making a joke, because before mention was made of being at the Steven Seagal concert with Gene in the Bay Area.

[Royal Dragon]

Kempo/Kenpo is not Chinese. It's Japanese.

If you want to argue, then technically it's all form China at some point, and even Karate is Kung Fu.

[lunghushan]

Kempo/Kenpo is not Chinese. It's Japanese.

If you want to argue, then technically it's all form China at some point, and even Karate is Kung Fu.

Well, if you look at the history there were Chinese temples in Okinawa.

Karate isn't Japanese at all, it was brought from Okinawa in the last 100 years.

[Ben Gash]

If you look at the histories of Okinawan Kenpo, then often they are pretty pure Fujian styles that are practiced in Okinawa, bit like Kuntao is the Indonesian name for Kung Fu.
I seem to remember from somewhere that the Bo in Kajukenbo is Chinese BOxing.

[Ben Gash]

Oh yeah, and if one of my students looked like that after 2 years I'd jack it in ;)

[David Jamieson]

Actually Ben, :p Kun Tao is the indonesian form of "fist method" which in Chinese is "Chuan Fa".

Kungfu is a much broader and less specific term. But yeah, kuntao is the indo equivalent of kungfu, just not in the transliteration sense.

[Yao Sing]

I seem to remember from somewhere that the Bo in Kajukenbo is Chinese BOxing.

That's my understanding also.


Actually Ben, :p Kun Tao is the indonesian form of "fist method" which in Chinese is "Chuan Fa".

Which in Japanese is "Ken Po".

[Shaolin Shi]

I seem to remember from somewhere that the Bo in Kajukenbo is Chinese BOxing.

This is what I understand as well. From what little I have seen in person of Kajukenbo, it struck me as a hodge-podge of various arts.... including some form of Kung Fu (Chinese Boxing).

[SevenStar]

LOLOLOL sevenstar? pleae tell me that is not your school... OMG
WOW and people wonder why kung fu has a bad name in some cities.

The funny thing was that her moves looked more like hand to hand combat from taekwondo than karate, she wore a chinese frog button uniform with a japanese cotton obi but then called it a form????? WTF? problem is this is what a lot of people are learnig and beging taught . This is why there needs to be an orginization to control who teaches and is allowed to open a school.


yet that woman is undefeated in local mma...

regardless, we are considering adding cooking classes to the curriculum, speifically japanese and fillipino dishes.

[SevenStar]

Seven Star must have been making a joke, because before mention was made of being at the Steven Seagal concert with Gene in the Bay Area.


I never said I was in the bay area - I said I saw seagal when he came to my city. Gene saw him before I did.

[SevenStar]

As for regulation, it can happen, but not on a cross style scale. Judo is a perfect example. They have standardization down to a fine art. what you learn at which stages, requirements for belts, coaching certs, etc. However, that still will not dictate the quality of the students that each club will produce, which would still be seen as a problem. Knowledge-wise, they will be on the same level, but not fighting caliber.

[lunghushan]

yet that woman is undefeated in local mma...

regardless, we are considering adding cooking classes to the curriculum, speifically japanese and fillipino dishes.

What local MMA? There is no local MMA.

Japanese and Filipino dishes will help in fighting. You can always throw them at people.

[SevenStar]

local smokers. there are plenty.

The point of the cooking is because this is what the women are asking for. You have to keep in mind that not all people who train MA train solely for fighting. Hell, most of the people on this board will admit they train for other reasons.

[lunghushan]

local smokers. there are plenty.

The point of the cooking is because this is what the women are asking for. You have to keep in mind that not all people who train MA train solely for fighting. Hell, most of the people on this board will admit they train for other reasons.

There's some MMA up in some reservation around Everett or something and some MMA down in some other reservation by Olympia or something, but what is there around Seattle?

I still can't believe you really are at this school. I thought you said you were a bouncer or had a club or something.

Why the women only emphasis, then? That makes no sense.

[Donkwoon]

local smokers. there are plenty.

What does that mean? Just wondering.

[lunghushan]

What does that mean? Just wondering.

I think the phrase comes from 'smoking out' the people who suck.

(That came out badly ... but you get the idea ... eliminating the people who stink).

[Yao Sing]

local smokers. there are plenty.


What does that mean? Just wondering.

That means they kick butt at pot parties.

[Royal Dragon]

I can vouch for Seven Star, that really is his club. I started this thread to give him some affectionate greif.

[lunghushan]

If Seven Star is a he then that can't be his club, by definition.

[lunghushan]

This is interesting, though. I hadn't seen this before:

http://www.7starwomenskungfu.org/

"Open sparring: Third Sunday of each month, 10:30 a.m. to noon (open to all styles and genders)"

So I guess they do spar against guys.

Maybe I should go ... get beat up by a bunch of feminists. LOL

http://www.7starwomenskungfu.org/photos_pride05.htm

Hey, looks like this is where they get their Shaolin forms:

Name: Michele Miller
Rank: 3rd degree black belt in Kajukenbo

Michele Miller is a third degree black belt under Sifu Michelle McVadon. She has been training for 13 years at Seven Star Women's Kung Fu. A movement instructor for over 20 years, Michele has taught kung fu at Seven Star, Velocity Dance Center, and Cornish College of the Arts in Seattle; Bates Dance Festival in Maine; and recently at PAWMA Camp in 2005. In addition to Kajukenbo, Michele studies Sil Lum Kung Fu and Koo Style Tai Chi under Sifu Cheung Yui Shing in Hong Kong, adding the traditional Chinese weapons of Spear, Saber, Chinese Sword, and Fan to her empty-hand training. Training in these weapons is offered at Seven Star to current students in addition to the regular Kajukenbo curriculum. Michele also teaches modern dance and Pilates.

[Donkwoon]

I've seen some pretty bad lazyness, materialism and dissinterest get in the way of folks who otherwise might have been good students. At least these women are doing something and that's better then nothing.

[lunghushan]

I've seen some pretty bad lazyness, materialism and dissinterest get in the way of folks who otherwise might have been good students. At least these women are doing something and that's better then nothing.

They've gotta be better than that girl in the video ...

I haven't sparred with women in a long time, though.

Where am I supposed to hit them? If I can't hit the back, the neck, the head, the face ... and probably the chest, then what does that leave?

Arms, legs and stomach? Butt? Shoulders?

I guess I could go and just be their target practice. You gotta figure women who study at a feminist school probably have a lot of anti-male issues. LOL

[Royal Dragon]

What is "Koo" style Tai Chi?

[lunghushan]

What is "Koo" style Tai Chi?

That's like in 1st grade where they touch you and give you koo-ties, and then you touch them and give them koo-ties.

I have no idea ...

[David Jamieson]

donkwoon has the correct.

it surely does beat a quilting bee nd becoming a fattie instead of doing something fun like this.

actually, people can be a bit too quick to rag on folks like this for whatever reaons. Either it's because they are not beating on each other and playing ufc in their club, or in this case because they are lesbians or feminists.

unfortunate that so clled "kungfu" people, or martial minds tend to drift in this petty finger pointing and whining that is all too apparent in martial arts.

even in those places where "no ego" is claimed, there seems to be a lot.

I think, Im gonna continue my practice and pay less attention to what others have to say about it. especially when they are not putting themselves up as the comparison point.

cheapshots are unbecoming of a martial artist.
I think these girls are doing something good for themselves and that's more important than cage matches and minutia of tai chi. I mean, who really cares about all this ritual dance we do anyway and why is your ritual dance any better than there? Is it because sometimes another ritual dancer hits you in the face that makes it more valid?

which brings me to another point, all this talk about self defense, street fighting, realism etc etc. That's all bull**** really on a lot of levels.

no training will protect you from the bitter reality of your own death. no training will stop a bullet from cutting through you and totally destroying however many years of training you have, no amount of boxing or wrestling will weigh up against much more thanb someone else who wants to ritually dance with you.

or sure, you might have gotten out of a scrape or two and decided to attribute your escape to your ritual dance functionality...but really, in the real reality, you got out because you had the will to do so.

we tie so much baggae to martial arts we actually can't see the arts because it's covered in the luggage of our own illsuions set upon it.

Im going to continue my practice for the reason that I enjoy it, it lets off a little steam and keeps me reasonably fit and healthy. Im not a 20 something dude with something to prove by entering tournamnet fighting. that's way behind me. Im not even interested in old war stories or legends or any of that anymore.

Im going to continue to do this thing for me because i enjoy it and Im goin to be very concious of bagging on others.

anyway, that's my rant. go seven star girls, you get out there an kick some air like everyone else is enjoying!! :D

[LongPath]

no training will protect you from the bitter reality of your own death. no training will stop a bullet from cutting through you and totally destroying however many years of training you have, no amount of boxing or wrestling will weigh up against much more than someone else who wants to ritually dance with you. -- David Jamieson
I agree with the sentiment of your entire post. It's so easy to cast aspersions at others, but it only distracts us from our own training and development. Any feelings of invincibility we pick up along the way are pure illusion, which makes the brief ego boost of looking down on others that much more dangerous.

[Su Lin]

They've gotta be better than that girl in the video ...

I haven't sparred with women in a long time, though.

Where am I supposed to hit them? If I can't hit the back, the neck, the head, the face ... and probably the chest, then what does that leave?

Arms, legs and stomach? Butt? Shoulders?

I guess I could go and just be their target practice. You gotta figure women who study at a feminist school probably have a lot of anti-male issues. LOL


Why can't you hit them in the back, neck,head ,face or chest? I spar and expect to get hit in those places! I just wear a head guard, mouth guard, and shortly a chest guard.

I train with men, and really enjoy it, as I said previously, I wouldnt like to go to an all womens club- must be as a result of going to an all girls school and hating it!

[Royal Dragon]

My ex was beat, & stalked by one of her past boyfrinds, and ended up in a support group for abused women. At one point, she tried to get me in there to teach self defense to them, as she thought women should be able to fight (those of you who have met theresa...I bet you can't picture her in a group like that!).

Anyway, it never happened because they were HIGLY suspicious of all men, didn't trust any of us, and basically wanted to isolate themselves totally from the male population. it's almost as if they believed all men were abusive, like it was just hard wired into our genes, and we could not help ourselves.

Theresa eventually left the group, because they offered no actual help in dealing with her stalker, only sympathy, and emotional support & well being. That didn't sit well with Theresa, she wanted someone to help her shoot the SOB.

Hmmm, just had a thought Theresa pretty much was my daughter's mother figure....no wonder her BioMom's landlord is STILL sporting bruises from 2+ weeks ago.

[SevenStar]

What does that mean? Just wondering.

A smoker is basically a local competition, open to all who want to enter. they aren't sanctioned, they are just fight nights. they have them all over the country, typically hosted by local boxing or kickboxing schools.

[SevenStar]

donkwoon has the correct.

it surely does beat a quilting bee nd becoming a fattie instead of doing something fun like this.

actually, people can be a bit too quick to rag on folks like this for whatever reaons. Either it's because they are not beating on each other and playing ufc in their club, or in this case because they are lesbians or feminists.

unfortunate that so clled "kungfu" people, or martial minds tend to drift in this petty finger pointing and whining that is all too apparent in martial arts.

even in those places where "no ego" is claimed, there seems to be a lot.

I think, Im gonna continue my practice and pay less attention to what others have to say about it. especially when they are not putting themselves up as the comparison point.

cheapshots are unbecoming of a martial artist.
I think these girls are doing something good for themselves and that's more important than cage matches and minutia of tai chi. I mean, who really cares about all this ritual dance we do anyway and why is your ritual dance any better than there? Is it because sometimes another ritual dancer hits you in the face that makes it more valid?

which brings me to another point, all this talk about self defense, street fighting, realism etc etc. That's all bull**** really on a lot of levels.

no training will protect you from the bitter reality of your own death. no training will stop a bullet from cutting through you and totally destroying however many years of training you have, no amount of boxing or wrestling will weigh up against much more thanb someone else who wants to ritually dance with you.

or sure, you might have gotten out of a scrape or two and decided to attribute your escape to your ritual dance functionality...but really, in the real reality, you got out because you had the will to do so.

we tie so much baggae to martial arts we actually can't see the arts because it's covered in the luggage of our own illsuions set upon it.

Im going to continue my practice for the reason that I enjoy it, it lets off a little steam and keeps me reasonably fit and healthy. Im not a 20 something dude with something to prove by entering tournamnet fighting. that's way behind me. Im not even interested in old war stories or legends or any of that anymore.

Im going to continue to do this thing for me because i enjoy it and Im goin to be very concious of bagging on others.

anyway, that's my rant. go seven star girls, you get out there an kick some air like everyone else is enjoying!! :D


Thanks DJ. I'm glad someone can appreciate what I'm trying to do.

[SevenStar]

There's some MMA up in some reservation around Everett or something and some MMA down in some other reservation by Olympia or something, but what is there around Seattle?

I still can't believe you really are at this school. I thought you said you were a bouncer or had a club or something.

Why the women only emphasis, then? That makes no sense.

I am a bouncer. I have three jobs. I am a web developer, I bounce and I teach.

[lunghushan]

I am a bouncer. I have three jobs. I am a web developer, I bounce and I teach.

Okay, either I'm missing a long running joke, or this is really your school, and you're actually a chick.

Okay then, how does the sparring work? I've got gloves, shinguards, foot pads and cup from my last karate place.

I haven't sparred with any women in a while, but I won't take your heads off or anything. Do you allow any grabbing or takedowns in sparring, or is it just kickboxing? I'm assuming light contact. What are the allowed target areas?

[lunghushan]

Why can't you hit them in the back, neck,head ,face or chest? I spar and expect to get hit in those places! I just wear a head guard, mouth guard, and shortly a chest guard.

I train with men, and really enjoy it, as I said previously, I wouldnt like to go to an all womens club- must be as a result of going to an all girls school and hating it!

Well I don't know. In my last club contact to the chest was extremely frowned upon. It's been about 7 years since I sparred with any women, but I think the only place I could hit them was arms, legs and stomach. I think I could touch their face and heads but that was about it.

[SevenStar]

Okay, either I'm missing a long running joke, or this is really your school, and you're actually a chick.

Okay then, how does the sparring work? I've got gloves, shinguards, foot pads and cup from my last karate place.

I haven't sparred with any women in a while, but I won't take your heads off or anything. Do you allow any grabbing or takedowns in sparring, or is it just kickboxing? I'm assuming light contact. What are the allowed target areas?

I'm not a chick - the chick is one of my students. I'm not at all worried about you taking either her head or mine off. you nailed the target areas in your reply to su lin. contact level depends on who you opponent is. Some of them do like to mix it up. If we are doing san shou sparring, then yes, takedowns are allowed.

[Su Lin]

Well I don't know. In my last club contact to the chest was extremely frowned upon. It's been about 7 years since I sparred with any women, but I think the only place I could hit them was arms, legs and stomach. I think I could touch their face and heads but that was about it.

I suppose it depends on your style really. I'm expected to take blows as the guys do, which Im fine with as I started kung fu realising there would be fighting involved. I'm having a few sparring issues at the moment, lost my nerve after 2 months off with an injury.

[lunghushan]

I'm not a chick - the chick is one of my students. I'm not at all worried about you taking either her head or mine off. you nailed the target areas in your reply to su lin. contact level depends on who you opponent is. Some of them do like to mix it up. If we are doing san shou sparring, then yes, takedowns are allowed.

Okay, I'm totally confused, then. You said this is your club, that is your student, but there are NO men listed as instructors. So what are you, asexual?

[Su Lin]

Out of interest Sevenstar, if your students are generally training all women, how do they do when sparring against men in the open sessions ?

[lunghushan]

I've found that a lot of women can do very well in light contact sparring because a lot of them are very well coordinated, fast and flexible.

So you can't really gauge how well a woman would do in a real combat situation with how they do in sparring.

Where women tend to fall off in fighting is where they actually get hit. For some reason getting hit seems to affect women much more than men. I have no idea why. Some scientists speculate that women feel pain more acutely than men do.

[David Jamieson]

I've found that a lot of women can do very well in light contact sparring because a lot of them are very well coordinated, fast and flexible.

So you can't really gauge how well a woman would do in a real combat situation with how they do in sparring.

Where women tend to fall off in fighting is where they actually get hit. For some reason getting hit seems to affect women much more than men. I have no idea why. Some scientists speculate that women feel pain more acutely than men do.

actually, science more often tahn not finds that a woman's pain threshold is much higher than a mans. which would make sense, seeing as they are the ones having babies. that kind of pain, I don't want to kniow.

nobody digs getting hit, some people can eat it more tahn others, men and women included.

but, take a sledgehammer to a grape and you will get the same results everytime.
take it to a rock and it will change a bit.

conditioning is the thing. If you do not condition, then you will not be able to endure period. If your training has no focus on conditioning, then pretty much everything else is just window dressing.

the most useful part of a bowl is it's emptiness.

[lunghushan]

actually, science more often tahn not finds that a woman's pain threshold is much higher than a mans. which would make sense, seeing as they are the ones having babies. that kind of pain, I don't want to kniow.


Lately they've been saying women feel it more acutely.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4641567.stm

I mean, you can see it when you're sparring women. You could even see it on Final Fu. It's like guy takes kick into his side. Not a big deal, he brushes it off.

Woman takes same force kick to her side. Ouch ... gasp ... time out. It seems to affect her much worse.

So does it really affect her worse? Or is it a societally conditioned response, like the kid who screams after falling down for attention?

[MasterKiller]

Okay, I'm totally confused, then. You said this is your club, that is your student, but there are NO men listed as instructors. So what are you, asexual?

It's called marketing. He markets to women, so he lists women on his website. His wife is technically the school owner, if I remember correctly. But it's his show.

All you have to do is show up and ask for the ginormous brother that runs the school. They will know what you mean.

[lunghushan]

It's called marketing. He markets to women, so he lists women on his website. His wife is technically the school owner, if I remember correctly. But it's his show.

All you have to do is show up and ask for the ginormous brother that runs the school. They will know what you mean.

Okay, now I know you're pulling my leg. Well, thanks for the joke. Hahahahaha

As if there was any place to train Muay Thai in Seattle. The closest place is down in Tacoma.

Far more likely he's in Tennessee.

[The Willow Sword]

Okay, I'm totally confused, then. You said this is your club, that is your student, but there are NO men listed as instructors. So what are you, asexual?

ROFLMFAO:D !!!
TWS.

[SevenStar]

Out of interest Sevenstar, if your students are generally training all women, how do they do when sparring against men in the open sessions ?


that's not my school. I chimed in because the school and I share the name. RD and MK picked up on it and joined in. We oughtta win troll of the year for the KFM Awards this year.

However, I do train or assist in training several females. Right now, all of them are new except for two, so they are the only two that spar. They do fine against males. one of them has a fight coming up soon.

[lunghushan]

Too bad there isn't a troll of the year award.

[SevenStar]

sure there is. It's a category every year in the KFM awards. I don't think you've ever been around for one of those, so this year will be your first.

[Royal Dragon]

I thought we voted for that every New Year's eve?

[Royal Dragon]

LOL! We must have posted at the same time!!

[The Xia]

Someone declared me the winner of the most pointless thread award 2006.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42837

[Su Lin]

that's not my school. I chimed in because the school and I share the name. RD and MK picked up on it and joined in. We oughtta win troll of the year for the KFM Awards this year.

However, I do train or assist in training several females. Right now, all of them are new except for two, so they are the only two that spar. They do fine against males. one of them has a fight coming up soon.



:o :o :o :o I'll be leaving now.....

[IronFist]

I am thinking of E-mailing them, and letting them see this thread to see what it is they have to say for themselves.

Do it. Post the email and their reply :D

If you already did this, sorry for replying late. I just saw your post and thought it would be funny, but I haven't read the whole thread yet.

[mattb]

Oh, and I thought college was tough with their whole application process, first time I ever saw an MA school you had to audition for, these gals training for the Olympics?

[christianmoses]

Hello. My name is Chris Moses, I’m a martial artist in the Seattle area. I happened upon this thread the other day and felt that I should make a few informed comments. I’m neither a student of Sevenstar or kajukenbo, but I hold several dan (blackbelt) ranks in Aikido and Japanese swordsmanship, and have been doing this stuff for a fair while. I trained (in Aikido) as a fellow student with the chief instructor of Sevenstar for about six years (in addition to her kajukenbo ranks, she holds sandan in aikido and shodan in jujutsu) and my wife is currently a student there. Michelle is a very competent martial artist and one of the best teachers I have ever dealt with. She was honored as “Martial Artist of the Year” in 2003 by PAWMA. Her ability to be both challenging and supportive of her students is inspiring, and the dedication that she has demonstrated to the martial arts is worthy of respect rather than the derision I see here. Sevenstar was founded almost 25 years ago and the name was chosen by the previous Sifu, Anne Moon. I don’t know all of the history behind the choice of names, but “Kung Fu” is a reflection of the very real Chinese influences to their particular line of kajukenbo. Kajukenbo is a modern and eclectic style that emphasizes practicality, they make no claims to be other than what they are. There are other kajukenbo schools in Seattle that have co-ed classes and it would be a mistake to think that the students of Sevenstar never train with men. At nearly all of their tests, male kajukenbo practitioners are present, and they run one of the few open sparring environments in town. The curriculum is clearly divided into forms and movements that have a decided karate feel vs. a much more kung fu flavor. They make no exorbitant claims about who they are and where they come from. Students are taught from day one where and how their art was formed. I don’t really think that it speaks well of this forum, that you were all so hasty to judge an entire art based on a fairly junior student’s audition for a television show (for which she was accepted). Do you honestly think that adequately reflects the breadth and scope of their art? The last blackbelt test that I attended there went on for five hours, and that was for one person. My wife’s first belt test was over two hours long and testers were expected to not only demonstrate the various flavors of martial movement that make up their system but to discuss the history of the art and their particular school. Thank you very much for your time, hope this clears up some of the many misconceptions going on in this thread.

[Royal Dragon]

Where does there Kung Fu come from? what styles, and lineages?

[christianmoses]

Where does there Kung Fu come from? what styles, and lineages?

Gosh, can't imagine where we could ever find that out...

http://www.kajukenbo.org/history/

And to clarify, if kajukenbo was synthesized today, it would probably just be called "Self Defense" or MMA, that's what it is. At the time that it was founded, everything was either 'karate' 'judo' or 'kung-fu'. Kung-fu is by far the most general of the terms, so it's completely reasonable for them to have adopted that aspect of their history as a simple way to present themselves. Remember that until pretty recently, if you wanted to look up a martial arts dojo in the yellow pages they were all listed under "karate" or "Kung-fu" irregardless of what they actually were.

There's plenty of wackos and charlatans out there taking people's money based on false and misleading claims, these people aren't them.

[Yao Sing]

a fairly junior student’s audition for a television show (for which she was accepted).

What was the TV show? Was it just local? She wasn't trying out for Final Fu was she?

[Yao Sing]

I looked at the video and website again. Sounds like it was a local documentary about the martial arts scene in the northwest.

As for the website I get the impression it's more about empowering women than martial arts. Before anyone jumps my bones I didn't say that was a bad thing.

[SevenStar]

empowered women jumping your bones is rarely a bad thing.

[Royal Dragon]

That page only says that a contributer named Clarence Chang contributed the Kung Fu part (looks like only 25% not enough to use the Words Kung fu IMO, as 75% of your system is Japanese), but it does not say what specific styles he brought to the table, or where he learned them. All it says is "Chuan Fa"...which is just another generic term like Kung Fu. It just means "Fist Method". It's not the name of a style.

Chuan Fa might be more of a tag trailer to the real style's name. For example, I do a style called Emperor's Long Fist. In Chinese it is Sung, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It basically refers to the fact that i do a Long Fist style develped by the Emperor Sung Tai Tzu. I could just as easily say I do Sung, Tai Tzu Chuan Fa, or the Fist methods of Emperor, Sung Tai Tzu.

So by saying you do Chuan Fa, it's really just the same as saying you do some sort'a Kung Fu. It's general as can be, and not at all specific.

So, with the basic education out of the way, What KIND of Chuan Fa/Kung Fu is taught, and what is the lineage before Clarence Chang?

[christianmoses]

The television show was a reality show where they took two kung-fu students from the US and went to China to train at various schools and temples. I don't know the status of the show, I don't think it's aired yet. As a correction too, Gina was not selected for the show but another student from Sevenstar was.

RD, you're looking way too much into the name. It's kajukenbo. Their shirts say kajukenbo, their ranks say kajukenbo. Not many people know what the heck kajukenbo is, so instead of having a huge board saying "Martial arts founded in the 40's in Hawaii with an emphasis on practical application and containing elements of karate, judo and Chinese boxing" someone decided to just call it Kung Fu. As you pointed out, Kung Fu is a pretty non-specific term, and that's the point. When I grab coffee on the way to the dojo on Saturday mornings and the cute coffee girl asks me if I'm going to Karate class, I say, "Yes," not, "No I'm going to Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu the sword line founded by Hibino Raifu to preserve the samurai traditions from the influences of gekiken/kendo, but we also have some iron fan and staff techniques too." It's all 'karate' to the layperson. Kajukenbo is a modern MMA, the Chinese influences I see are similar to chi na, win chun and some Hsing I, but they also have some animal forms in their stances. They never paint dots on their heads and pretend that they're doing Shaolin Kung Fu. The kata and 'one steps' have very linear karate like movements, and the pinans are much more Chinese in flavor, longer and more flowing.

Like I said, if you really want to get ****ed off about people lying about their heritage and taking people's money, you've got the wrong group. Their classes are even offered on a sliding scale so everyone can go, plus they have need based scholarships and free childcare. No one's getting rich and famous here. They are very dedicated and competant martial artists though.

[Lohankuen1]

.... competant martial artists though.

what's your definition of competent?

[Royal Dragon]

That is all fine, and dandy, but what style of Kung fu/Chuan Fa did your school draw from? what is the lineage of that Kung Fu system?

Also, Kung Fu is a general term yes, but it is general to CHINESE arts, you appear to be 75% Japanese in origin. Karate would be much more accrate of a name considering 75% of what your students get is not Kung fu.

[christianmoses]

That is all fine, and dandy, but what style of Kung fu/Chuan Fa did your school draw from? what is the lineage of that Kung Fu system?

Also, Kung Fu is a general term yes, but it is general to CHINESE arts, you appear to be 75% Japanese in origin. Karate would be much more accrate of a name considering 75% of what your students get is not Kung fu.

You need to work on that reading comprehension don't you? Let's go back to that first post of mine...

"Hello. My name is Chris Moses, I’m a martial artist in the Seattle area. I happened upon this thread the other day and felt that I should make a few informed comments. I’m neither a student of Sevenstar or kajukenbo..." So that would mean that it's not my school or my style. I don't know which lineage of Kung Fu it comes from, I don't particularly care. They don't claim to be doing traditional Kung Fu, they're doing kajukenbo and *they're preserving the system as it was handed down to them* meaning they use the terms and phrases that their teachers used.

75% of the name 'kajukenbo' represents Japanese arts, but that's not an accurate representation of the curriculum. It's Hawaiian MMA and it varies a lot from kwoon to kwoon. There's a lot more Chinese influence than judo for example at Sevenstar.

As for asking me to define what a competant martial artist is, that's stupid. Please offer your own definition first. If you can't, don't ask me to. You know it when you see/feel it, and it would seem that I'm the only person in this discussion whose seen and felt these people.

[The Willow Sword]

Hey if you will notice that video that was originally posted at the beginning of this thread has been removed.:rolleyes:

TWS

[Royal Dragon]

As for asking me to define what a competant martial artist is, that's stupid. Please offer your own definition first. If you can't, don't ask me to. You know it when you see/feel it, and it would seem that I'm the only person in this discussion whose seen and felt these people.

Reply]
I didn't ask this

Ok, so ur not part of thier club, but you seem defensive about it...why?

And you seem to know about it too, so where can we go to get basic info on what it is they do that is called Kung Fu?

[Royal Dragon]

Hello. My name is Chris Moses, I’m neither a student of Sevenstar or kajukenbo..." So that would mean that it's not my school or my style. I don't know which lineage of Kung Fu it comes from, I don't particularly care.

Reply]
So, what style are you from then? Do you have any women?

[Yao Sing]

RD, if he ignores you will you be surprised?

He mentioned his style. I don't remember but he did say what it was and I'm too uninterested to look it up for you.

I think he said his wife/girlfriend trains there so he knows them well and is offering an informed perspective. I don't exactly agree but that's where he stands.

[Lohankuen1]

As for asking me to define what a competant martial artist is, that's stupid.
Please offer your own definition first. If you can't, don't ask me to. You know it when you see/feel it, and it would seem that I'm the only person in this discussion whose seen and felt these people.

Why is that question stupid? i just wanted to know what you felt was a competent martial artist was so i can understand where you're coming from that's all. I didn't say i couldn't, it's just that different people have different ideas on what competent means in terms of martial art. Well, we've also seen these people on the video.

Hey, i'm all for empowering women and giving them the confidence they desire, but giving them a false sense of security is not only unfair to them but also people around them.

[Samurai Jack]

Kajukenbo people call thier art "Kung Fu" every where you go. As far as I can tell by speaking with thier practitioners, they don't actually have a kungfu lineage, nor do they claim one. It's just the term that was in most generic use at the time that the art was widely popularized in the U.S. in the mid 70's ala David Carradine's show / Bruce Lee's movies. Sort of like Helio Gracie calling his art "Jujitsu" when it was really based on his early wrestling and Kodokan Judo stuff.

My concern about the school is this quote from the web site:

"By contrast, some male training partners don't give their best when they fight a woman, feeling that it's unmanly or unchivalrous. Others may use their greater size and strength to overpower an inexperienced female opponent, rather than giving her an appropriate level of challenge so that she can develop the skills needed to fight someone larger and stronger."

So let me get this straight. Is the author saying that men aren't good training partners for women because they don't provide enough resistance, or is she saying that they provide too much resistance? It seems to be both. Not to mention the gross generalization.

My dojo has about 30 % women, and as I write this the inside of my lips are cut up and puffy from one of our senior (female) black-belts punching me in the face (over...and over... and over... and...), while I am nursing two strained joints from another female student wrenching my wrist and my opposite shoulder in two seperate classes. I'm one of the biggest guys at the dojo, but if I went light on these women, I'd be hurt a lot worse.

Women can be VERY tough, and don't need men to make concessions, nor are they best served from a self defense perspective by refusing to train with men. Just my opinion.

[Su Lin]

I agree Samurai Jack. I am the only woman in my club and I have to spar with men. I expect them to treat me the same as they do the men. Otherwise why should I bother going at all!You can't have it all ways!
This is why I am sceptical of a women only club, even though they may occasionally spar with men.
If women are doing it as self defence, then they should get used to what fighting with a man feels like! It's all very well practising with women and sparring with them, but if using it for self defence, that isn't going to prepare you for what a man's force would be.
If they aren't doing it for self defence well then, whatever. But personally, as I mentioned much earlier in this debate, I really can't see the merits in just training with women.

[Yao Sing]

Well, I was going to go here but I'll throw out what might be on the minds of some.

There's a distinct air of feminism around that place. A certain gay pride in being a women.

I suspect most of them just prefer the company of other women. It's a girls club first, MA training center second.

I can undersatnd women only fitness centers, health clubs and gyms but for MA it's not a good thing for the reasons expressed by Su Lin and others. But I do give her kudos for holding an open practice once a week.

[christianmoses]

As for asking me to define what a competant martial artist is, that's stupid. Please offer your own definition first. If you can't, don't ask me to. You know it when you see/feel it, and it would seem that I'm the only person in this discussion whose seen and felt these people.

Reply]
I didn't ask this

Ok, so ur not part of thier club, but you seem defensive about it...why?

And you seem to know about it too, so where can we go to get basic info on what it is they do that is called Kung Fu?

Seriously man, if you're not going to read what I write, why should I bother?

Also, the bit about defining a competant martial artist was a response to another post. I feel this is an attempt to set me up for a straw man arguement, thus my request that whoever is asking me for this definition should be willing to offer one of their own first. As for seeing 'these people' on the video, I'd just have to say no 1 minute video is ever going to sum up an art or what it's capable of. And you guys really aren't getting the fact that the video was *an audition for a TV show* not an endorsed documentary about Kajukenbo or Sevenstar.

Samurai Jack, it says you train in Eugene, if you know Tom Wharton or Mark Kruger you can ask them about me, I think I recognize your logon from e-budo too.

Another poster asked if I trained with women. Yes, I have, even studying under female teachers. I've also taught women. I was an instructor at Two Cranes Aikido, probably the largest Aikido school in the Seattle area for about six years before leaving to persue a small jujutsu style. Since we're on the subject, I hold second degree blackbelt ranks in Aikido and a recently tested for fourth degree balckbelt in Shinto Ryu, the sword line I study. Currently I'm studying a small jujustsu style under a student of Bernie Lau, Don Angier and Jon Bluming (if you know anything about any of them, you'll know their emphasis on practical application). I'm primarily a Japanese stylist, but my teachers have had ecclectic enough background that I'm not completely uninformed when it comes to Chinese arts.

There are better witches to burn out there you guys...

[Samurai Jack]

Well, as far as feminisim goes, it dosen't seem very empowering to have a women's only school because "(Men) may use their greater size and strength to overpower an inexperienced female opponent." (emphasis mine)

But they could still be very tough women. Who knows? It just seems like they're methods are a bit counter intuitive for thier goals.

[christianmoses]

Well, I was going to go here but I'll throw out what might be on the minds of some.

There's a distinct air of feminism around that place. A certain gay pride in being a women.

I suspect most of them just prefer the company of other women. It's a girls club first, MA training center second.

I can undersatnd women only fitness centers, health clubs and gyms but for MA it's not a good thing for the reasons expressed by Su Lin and others. But I do give her kudos for holding an open practice once a week.

Sorry, you're just plain wrong. These guys are a serious martial arts dojo. One benefit to being a women's only dojo is that they can spend more time emphasizing scenarios that affect women that just don't get played out in co-ed or predominanatly male dojos. Their focus is on practicality and self defense. My wife was quite hesitant to train there for some time because she too made some of these (incorrect) assumptions about what it means to be a women's dojo. I kept recommending the place because I'm friends with their cheif instructor and hold her in very high esteem, both as low BS martial artist and excellent educator. Now if you have a problem with gay pride, I can't help you there, that's your own hang-up.

[Samurai Jack]

Sure, I know Tom. He's a very strong aikidoka. If you know Gwen Gaylin, then you know how tough female martial artists can be.

For the record I'm not arguing that these martial artists lack skill, only that thier pedagogy seems suspect to me. But of course they can do whatever they want.

Cheers.

[christianmoses]

Well, as far as feminisim goes, it dosen't seem very empowering to have a women's only school because "(Men) may use their greater size and strength to overpower an inexperienced female opponent."

I think you bolded the wrong part of the sentence there.

Tom's a good friend of mine, we have a great time training together and he's stayed with me for seminars a couple times in Seattle. Skill level wise, we're pretty comparable if that gives you some sense of where I'm coming from when I say someone else is a talented MA.

[The Willow Sword]

I think the main concern amongst us is that there is a sort of misleading advertisement for the school. to add to it the video of that woman,who apparantly has been training there for TWO YEARS, did not do her form/kata very well. From a standpoint of those of us who have been in martial arts for a good while, and who after two years of training at a school would be able to perform a hell of a lot better than what we saw from this woman, we have to look at what is being taught to them and the level at which they are progressing as martial artists. i think it is fine to have an all female school, we have one here in austin that is a good dojo.

i mean it is our critique that she did her form very poorly and did not look as if she was training for two years, but people advance at their own pace and everyone has a different learning level when it comes to martial arts. so i will give that woman credit for posting herself on youtube and for sending in that video to kung fu journeys.

my main beef is what is advertised. kajukenbo is a mixed martial art that is primarliry japanese( i have no issues with JMA OR MMA) what i take issue with is that the obvious marketing ploy to get students in the door by writing on the front of the school (SEVEN STAR KUNG FU) . you DO REALIZE that SEVENSTAR is a very famous style of praying mantis kung fu and kung fu as you have read the KFM definition of is a general term describing martial arts that come from CHINA.
yet that school puts KUNG FU on its front door and you walk in and lo and behold it is a school with AIKIDO instructors and Kajukenbo instructors and maybe one assistant who has studied a couple of cma forms. the sign is misleading.

i also noticed that the youtube video has been removed by the user, obviously she caught wind of the deabte here and those harsh comments on the actual youtube site, either you or someone you told alerted her and she took it down.

maybe you can get her to come on the forum here and post her experiences at the school, instead of getting some second hand info from yourself who is just defending the school because you got a couple of girlfriends who train there.

i think all of us would like to read from those who actually train there and to explain, if they would the history behind the sevenstar designation and why "kung fu " is on the front door when it is clear that kung fu is not what is taught there.

cheers, TWS

[Su Lin]

If you put a video up on the internet expect some people to have contrary opinions to your own. If you put something in the public domain, expect to have people disagreeing with you. I can speak from experience- my sifu has a video on our school website which led to a long debate on another forum which saw my sifu being slagged off quite badly when people don't know him.
I don't think anyone is really being targetted personally here, and you are doing the honourable thing Chris M in standing up for your wife and Seven Star kwoon.
I just don't feel wowen only schools are a good idea,even if they do spar with men occasionally.What would happen if a men only school started up -women would go mad, quite rightly so too.
It sounds like they maybe focus on more practical self defence ,which is ok, but not really my bag. I study kung fu, and can apply certain techniques if the instance ever arose.
I also agree with the people who are talking about lineage ,and also with what Willow Sword says about Seven Star being a very well known and respected style.
Info goes on the web- expect to have it found and discussed by people who are interested in kung fu and have a deep respect for martial arts.

[christianmoses]

I think the main concern amongst us is that there is a sort of misleading advertisement for the school.

my main beef is what is advertised. kajukenbo is a mixed martial art that is primarliry japanese( i have no issues with JMA OR MMA) what i take issue with is that the obvious marketing ploy to get students in the door by writing on the front of the school (SEVEN STAR KUNG FU) . you DO REALIZE that SEVENSTAR is a very famous style of praying mantis kung fu and kung fu as you have read the KFM definition of is a general term describing martial arts that come from CHINA.
yet that school puts KUNG FU on its front door and you walk in and lo and behold it is a school with AIKIDO instructors and Kajukenbo instructors and maybe one assistant who has studied a couple of cma forms. the sign is misleading.

i also noticed that the youtube video has been removed by the user, obviously she caught wind of the deabte here and those harsh comments on the actual youtube site, either you or someone you told alerted her and she took it down.

maybe you can get her to come on the forum here and post her experiences at the school, instead of getting some second hand info from yourself who is just defending the school because you got a couple of girlfriends who train there.

i think all of us would like to read from those who actually train there and to explain, if they would the history behind the sevenstar designation and why "kung fu " is on the front door when it is clear that kung fu is not what is taught there.

cheers, TWS

1) Did you miss the earlier post that then entire kajukenbo organization uses the term "kung fu" to describe itself? It was a generic term for MA that was common during kajukenbo's spread.

2) I didn't alert anyone over there about this discussion.

3) I don't have 'girlfriends' over there, my wife trains there and I used to train with their head instructor.

4) They don't have aikido teachers, it's kajukenbo first and last. Michelle has a varied training background which includes aikido, jujutsu, arnis and other arts.

5) The people training there now didn't name the school, that was 25 years ago. Get over it, they're not tricking anyone into thinking that they're doing Preying Mantis style. Sevenstar is very well known in this area and they advertise themselves primarily as self defense.

Perhaps someone from the board should show up at open sparring instead of making wild speculation from the other side of the country? I'm the only person here who's ever seen and trained with these people. Sorry their name bugs you, get over it. They're not being decptive, they're very clear about what they do and as a non-profit organization, they're not getting rich off of this stuff. There are plenty of quacks and liars out there taking advantage of people, this school isn't one of them. You didn't like Gina's video, you don't like women's dojos, you don't like their name, you don't like how they dress.... Honestly, are you people martial artists or mall rats? Here's an idea, don't train there and quit ragging on good people? Like I said earlier, there's plenty of people out there worthy of this much venom.

[Su Lin]

Videos+martial arts+youtube= discussion which you may not agree with.

[Yao Sing]

1) Did you miss the earlier post that then entire kajukenbo organization uses the term "kung fu" to describe itself? It was a generic term for MA that was common during kajukenbo's spread.

Then the entire Kajukenbo organization is misleading the public. Does that make it ok? No, it doesn't.

And the argument that they're just maintaining the tradition because the original owner called it Kung Fu is like saying 'I was just following orders' at the Neuremberg trials.

Which brings up the question - If there was some dishonesty in your style/school in the past (like jumping on the Kung Fu trend) should you correct it or continue on with the 'tradition'?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you or the school but it makes for some interesting discussion like the above question. Whether this school is guilty or not I think it's still a valid question since there are plenty of other schools that fit this description.


They're not being decptive, they're very clear about what they do and as a non-profit organization, they're not getting rich off of this stuff.

Now this has me interested. It's a non-profit organization so what are it's goals and how does it qualify for that status?

So I take it there's no tuition? Anyone (any woman) can walk in off the street and take class? I'm interested in how this works.

[christianmoses]

Then the entire Kajukenbo organization is misleading the public. Does that make it ok? No, it doesn't.

And the argument that they're just maintaining the tradition because the original owner called it Kung Fu is like saying 'I was just following orders' at the Neuremberg trials.

Which brings up the question - If there was some dishonesty in your style/school in the past (like jumping on the Kung Fu trend) should you correct it or continue on with the 'tradition'?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you or the school but it makes for some interesting discussion like the above question. Whether this school is guilty or not I think it's still a valid question since there are plenty of other schools that fit this description.



Now this has me interested. It's a non-profit organization so what are it's goals and how does it qualify for that status?

So I take it there's no tuition? Anyone (any woman) can walk in off the street and take class? I'm interested in how this works.


Believe me, I understand how people can get upset about the names schools use to represent themselves. You have no idea how it pains me when I see aikido-karate-TKD... schools talking about 'kenjutsu' when they're swinging samyereye swords around. Likening the continued use of the term Kung Fu to the holocost is quite the stretch however... Particularly since there is a very real Chinese influence in what they do (despite the entomology of their name). I feel Sevenstar is being singled out in particular about this. It's the terminology that their art uses, sorry you don't like it. But considering that kajukenbo used to make a point of picking fights for no reason, I don't think they would really care if they made someone mad. Perhaps you should write to the founder of Kajukenbo and tell him he should stop? Let me know how that works out for you...

As for being non-profit, they charge dues like any other dojo but these go directly to the upkeep of the dojo. There is a steering committee (made up of representatives from each of the ranks) that handles all of the financial decisions of the dojo, including how much Michelle is paid. Yes she gets paid, but not as much as she should and she teaches full time. Additionally, their dues are set on a sliding scale based on the studen't income level, but beyond that they also offer scholarships that cover all dues for those who cannot pay. These scholarships also have covered out of town seminars and other training opportunities outside of regular class. They also are able to offer free childcare to their students. They actually pay someone to come in and watch the kids in an adjacent building to their main space so that 'mom' is able to enter into practice without keeping one eye on the kids.

[Yao Sing]

Quite a few things come to my mind during this discussion. One of them is something that's turned into a pet peeve of mine which is MA schools that have an outward appearance of mediocre skill yet claim to be much better than they look once you actually train with them.

It seems to me that you would put your best foot forward for marketing purposes and yet there are schools that claim the photos you see (usually on their own website) and the videos and performances do not reflect their true skill and knowledge.

Since the Sevenstar school is currently under the microscope I'll use their material for reference.

The Fan Kata had very little (almost none) fan application. It was like doing a form with a fan in your hand. As a side note the empty hand sets smelled like Karate in both moves and movement.

In the photo section of the website there's a picture of a student demonstrating a side kick which is terrible. I don't know the order of rank they use but I think she was wearing orange.

A picture of a Test shows a student looking straight ahead while kicking behind her (not looking at your target, not keeping an eye on your opponent). Another from that series shows a girl trying to fight with her stylish haircut covering her eyes.

Now I assume that what schools put up on their website are representative of what they do in class. It it isn't then it shouldn't be posted.

I commented on the Shaolin Do thread about the photos on Master Mullin's website. They're supposed to be depicting typical training yet the students are clearly overextending their stances attempting to look good for the camera (posed). Unless tthey really train with poor stances like that. I don't know.

SD is another school that says they're much better than all the publicly available material. Another one was that Spirit Kung Fu guy that looked like BS in his videos but was supposed to be the 'real deal' in real life.

What I'm saying is if you're good it should be evident from the face you show to the public. Don't put out crap and expect people to believe you're much better in the flesh.

[christianmoses]

What I'm saying is if you're good it should be evident from the face you show to the public. Don't put out crap and expect people to believe you're much better in the flesh.

That's fine. It can be very difficult however to tell much from photos out of context, and what is correct in one school can be completely incorrect in another. In my line of Japanese sword for instance there are very particular things that we do that would be considered completely wrong in another and vice versa. This is exagerated when you cross cultural boundaries. When I watch Chinese weapons for example, I have to work very hard to watch the core movements of the body to appreciate them, because they look completely wasteful and overly ornate to my Japanese budo sensibility. If I was to judge what I'm seeing by what would be correct in my school, it would nearly all be 'wrong'. But this isn't fair, and you learn to look past the form and into the lesson that the form teaches. There are some very fierce martial artists over there (at Sevenstar) who I would personally hesitate to fight, and there are other people who I have no doubt that I could take handily. But that's the same anywhere. If I couldn't say that then I would have been wasting my *own* time over the last decade. If these guys were pushing nationwide seminars or DVD sales it would be one thing, but it's just a website for their school. As for the fan, different styles use the fan differently. We study tessen (iron fan) in both my jujutsu line and my sword line, but use it completely differently than in Chinese arts. We never open the fan for instance, but rather use it like a short club, holding it at the end that opens to make it more solid. But part of our older curriculum is kenbu (fan dancing) where the fan is used open but literally as part of a melodramatic dance. You would probably not consider either 'correct' but they are for our paradigm. The short kata you saw very well could have been from the 'kata' which are based on karate. As I said, they incorporate both. There's been a lot of misinformation and speculation in this thread and as the only person here with any first hand knowledge, it was my intent to clear up some of the confusion going on here. I see that many of you are unable to adjust your prejudices based on new information however, so it seems I've been wasting my time.

[lunghushan]

There are some very fierce martial artists over there (at Sevenstar) who I would personally hesitate to fight, and there are other people who I have no doubt that I could take handily. But that's the same anywhere.

No, most places do not have only women. I have a really hard time believing that any self respecting martial artist male would 'hesitate to fight' any woman, but then again, some of those female bodybuilders are pretty scary. That wrestler Cheyenne was pretty scary, but look how she folded to Joey Buttafuoco.

Anyways, whatever. I'm not going to go over there and fight them because I am a p*ssy. LOL

Actually I've decided that sparring is un-hygenic. Think about it, if you hit somebody and split their lip, then hit somebody else and split their lip, without cleaning your gear, you've just transferred blood person to person. Not a good thing.

They should have sterile wraps to put around the gloves that you change for every person.

[Yao Sing]

Ok Howard Hughes, maybe you shouldn't venture out into the open environment as there are many nasty viruses and bacteria out in the world.

christianmoses
I have to say you're doing a very good job of getting your point across but that doesn't neccessarily mean I'm convinced. A lot of peeps would have resorted to ad hominem attacks by now (and many in the past actually did). This is a tough crowd here.

Whether they can fight or not I can't say but my impression is still this:

I see a MA club that's women first, MA second (you decide if that's good or bad).

I see poor technique displayed in the available material, and to paraphrase the Lama guys - Some stuff is just wrong and not a matter of being different (like hitting with toes when executing a side kick, not looking at target, taking eyes off potential attackers).

I see Karate, I do not see Kung Fu. If they truly teach it maybe they should offer more evidence of it other than a reference to picking some up from some guy in China.

Calling it Kung Fu implies a Chinese origin which I don't believe is true. That make it deceptive to the public. I don't have a problem with the Sevenstar name but you can see how there could be some confusion.

Consider this as feedback as to what the general public, specifically the MA public, sees in the image they portray.

[lunghushan]

Ok Howard Hughes, maybe you shouldn't venture out into the open environment as there are many nasty viruses and bacteria out in the world.


Seriously, this is a big problem. Hep-C especially is long lived and can transfer via blood on gear, mats, etc., if there are any open sores.

Think about it. You're sparring with somebody -- how often do you have an ouchy on your lip? And not just Hep-C. Herpes can spread if you hit somebody with a cold sore and then hit somebody else. A cold sore isn't always even necessary.

Bottom line is, martial arts schools aren't doing enough to protect their students. It's a shame and something needs to be done about it.

[christianmoses]

christianmoses
I have to say you're doing a very good job of getting your point across but that doesn't neccessarily mean I'm convinced. A lot of peeps would have resorted to ad hominem attacks by now (and many in the past actually did). This is a tough crowd here.



I hold no hope of convincing this forum, peoples minds were already made up before I ever posted here. If I've made someone question their initial assessment and realize that they've come to those initial impressions with very little actual information that's all I could really hope for. It's very difficult to determine what's actually happening in a still photograph, and having seen their tests in person, I know how chaotic and grouling they can be. Orange belt is their first level by the way, so realize that you're basing a decent portion of your opinion on a school (and what they consider correct) on someone who's been there maybe six months. Would you want your school judged that way?

As for being women first, martial arts second, just realize that you're making a huge assumption. Many people (including my wife) train there *despite* the fact that is's a women's dojo. They do so because of the quality and clarity of instruction there.

[Royal Dragon]

I see Karate, I do not see Kung Fu. If they truly teach it maybe they should offer more evidence of it other than a reference to picking some up from some guy in China.

Calling it Kung Fu implies a Chinese origin which I don't believe is true. That make it deceptive to the public.

Reply]
Agreed.


Then the entire Kajukenbo organization is misleading the public. Does that make it ok? No, it doesn't.

Reply]
Again, agreed. Infact this is my point in a nutshell.


my main beef is what is advertised. kajukenbo is a mixed martial art that is primarliry japanese( i have no issues with JMA OR MMA) what i take issue with is that the obvious marketing ploy to get students in the door by writing on the front of the school (SEVEN STAR KUNG FU) . you DO REALIZE that SEVENSTAR is a very famous style of praying mantis kung fu and kung fu as you have read the KFM definition of is a general term describing martial arts that come from CHINA.
yet that school puts KUNG FU on its front door and you walk in and lo and behold it is a school with AIKIDO instructors and Kajukenbo instructors and maybe one assistant who has studied a couple of cma forms. the sign is misleading.

Reply]
100% Correct. This is clearly a JAPANESE oriented school, with a smattering of Chinese stuff mixed in. The Uniforms are Japanese, most of the termonology (Except "Sifu") is japanese, and the style of Movement in that video is Japanese. Alos, most of the original style that make it up are ... You guessed it Japanese.

Calling it Kung Fu is the same as saying apple juice is Orange juice because you added a squeez from an orange to your glass.

[The Willow Sword]

You didn't like Gina's video,
I thought it was a very poor representation of the system. as do many others here.


you don't like women's dojos,

uhh i never said that, did YOU happen to catch the part of my post whuch stated that i dont have issues with women dojo's? and that we have one here in austin that is a very good school? didnt catch that did ya, maybe mext time you should pull your head out and read the post.

you don't like their name,

i believe the name to be misleading and you STILL havent discussed the history of the seven star distinction, since seven star seems to be only used in the praying mantis system, so i think alot of us would be interested to know where that distinction comes in. maybe you could ask your WIFE for us?

you don't like how they dress.

Never said that either genious.

Honestly, are you people martial artists or mall rats?

yeah we're all mall rats mr moses:rolleyes:

TWS

[christianmoses]

100% Correct. This is clearly a JAPANESE oriented school, with a smattering of Chinese stuff mixed in. The Uniforms are Japanese, most of the termonology (Except "Sifu") is japanese, and the style of Movement in that video is Japanese. Alos, most of the original style that make it up are ... You guessed it Japanese.


So, you see a lot of Japanese karateka wearing frog button jackets? Or is it the black t-shirts with 'kung-fu' pants that reminds you of Japanese uniforms? Here's the deal, you're WRONG. You don't know what you're talking about. Most of the terminology? So how many kajukenbo classes have you sat through? What percentage of the curriculum would you consider yourself familiar with? I don't know how you've managed to convince yourself that you know what you're talking about? It's comic.

[christianmoses]

TWS, that particular part of my post was to the forum at large not you in particular. I no longer live in the south, so legally I'm no longer able to use the (much needed) "y'all" to convey the second person plural. Sorry you misunderstood my comments.

[Yao Sing]

As for being women first, martial arts second, just realize that you're making a huge assumption. Many people (including my wife) train there *despite* the fact that is's a women's dojo. They do so because of the quality and clarity of instruction there.

Yes, it is an assumption. It's an assumption based on the publicly available information coming from that organization. If it's wrong then they might want to consider changing things a bit.

Here's what I see - it's a womens club that practices MA, not a MA club comprised mostly of women. The reason I say that is because of the women only requirement. Apparently that's a priority. If MA was #1 it would be open to all so they could get a good cross section of people to train against.

The references to women only organizations and links to gay sites adds to the prima facia evidence of being a feminist organization. If true it would certainly be a women first club.

Based on what I see I'm guessing the owner subscribes to the feminist ideology and possibly the ****sexual ideology (I am neither promoting nor denigrating either one) which would definitely lead to the probability of a womens first club.

Hey, I admit I could be wrong. Tell me she isn't gay and doesn't promote feminism. Either way it has no bearing on her MA knowledge or skill so don't bother throwing her fighting ability back at me as some kind of proof.

Now let's look at the anatomy of a straw man since it bugs the crap out of me when peeps try to redirect attention to an argument of their own choosing.

The proof you're offering to counter my claim that's it's a women first club is the fact that your wife trains there *despite* the fact that it's a women's dojo plus the quality of instruction. Neither one has any bearing on whether it's a women first club.

If you wish to counter my point please do so with info that addresses the point, not with unrelated comments.

[lunghushan]

Well I'm just surprised about the open sparring thing included men. I had no idea of that or I would have gone there a lot. Unfortunately now that I found out about how easy Hep-C and herpes and stuff can be spread, no way I'm going near any sparring.

Anyways, who the heck cares ... if women want to learn martial arts with other women, then fine ... if it's some strange made up system then whatever... whatever floats their boat.

The fact that there's free childcare probably allows a lot of women especially single moms to train that otherwise couldn't.

[christianmoses]

Hey, I admit I could be wrong. Tell me she isn't gay and doesn't promote feminism. Either way it has no bearing on her MA knowledge or skill so don't bother throwing her fighting ability back at me as some kind of proof.

[snip]

If you wish to counter my point please do so with info that addresses the point, not with unrelated comments.

I'll be honest, you're kind of ticking me off here with this line of your comments. Again, you're trying to tell me what the emphasis of this school is despite the fact that you don't actually know these people and I do. That doesn't make any sense. Surely you can see that. And surely you're not implying that ones sexual orientation affects ones ability to focus on the martial arts? Yet here you are discounting "fighting ability" in determining the focus of the kwoon but bringing forward sexual preference as a litmus test for the training priority. That doesn't make any sense. I don't think I'll ever convince you, so all I can do is say that they put just as much or more emphasis on their martial arts as any other serious dojo/kwoon/school that I have dealt with. Almost every dojo/kwoon that I have visited is predominantly male, that was even true at my last aikido dojo that was run by a woman. At the two dojo where I currently train we have only men, even though both are open to women. That can be a very intimidating environment for some women to enter into. What then is wrong with offering people a different kind of training environment? This isn't kardio-kickboxing. The students of sevenstar train with men regularly at Seattle Kajukenbo and their open sparring. Most of the intermediate/advanced women there study another art. I take offense at your painting their school a kind of social club for women rather than the serious school of martial arts that it is. Frankly here in Seattle a large part of the female population of any martial arts school will be lesbian, that's just part of the culture. I've seen social club dojos, and this isn't one.

[lunghushan]

I take offense at your painting their school a kind of social club for women rather than the serious school of martial arts that it is. Frankly here in Seattle a large part of the female population of any martial arts school will be lesbian, that's just part of the culture. I've seen social club dojos, and this isn't one.

I'm going to get into trouble again here but that's what I was told by a couple of other people in Seattle that it's a lesbian pick-up spot. That might not be the case (if your wife trains there doesn't sound like it), but that's what some people thought.

I always assumed that was just the case why a lot of martial arts are so soft in Seattle, was because of the gay influence.

[christianmoses]

I always assumed that was just the case why a lot of martial arts are so soft in Seattle, was because of the gay influence.

I know a lot of people who would *really* love to hear you say that to them in person. I know a lot of serious bad-a$$es who are queer as a $3 bill.

[lunghushan]

I know a lot of people who would *really* love to hear you say that to them in person. I know a lot of serious bad-a$$es who are queer as a $3 bill.

Yeah, I'm sure there are some, but the other place I went to in Seattle, on the list, www.wuji.com, sure wasn't.

But seriously, that woman on the video was soft as heck.

Here is the list from the link on www.wuji.com:

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/7078/iaglma.html

Washington, Seattle
# Aikido Two Cranes Dojo - gay friendly
# Emerald City Aikido Dojo - gay friendly
# Feminist Karate Union - gay friendly
# Internal Wushu Arts Xin Qi Shen Dojo - gay friendly email
# Seattle School of Aikido - gay friendly
# Seven Stars Kung Fu - gay friendly
# West Seattle Aikido Dojo - gay friendly
# Quantum Martial Arts - gay friendly

[christianmoses]

Yeah, I'm sure there are some, but the other place I went to in Seattle, on the list, www.wuji.com, sure wasn't.

But seriously, that woman on the video was soft as heck.

Here is the list from the link on www.wuji.com:

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/7078/iaglma.html

Washington, Seattle
# Aikido Two Cranes Dojo - gay friendly
# Emerald City Aikido Dojo - gay friendly
# Feminist Karate Union - gay friendly
# Internal Wushu Arts Xin Qi Shen Dojo - gay friendly email
# Seattle School of Aikido - gay friendly
# Seven Stars Kung Fu - gay friendly
# West Seattle Aikido Dojo - gay friendly
# Quantum Martial Arts - gay friendly

So where do you train now?

Tell ya what... go over to Quantum and let them know your theory. They would be glad to enlighten you.

Andy Dale (wuji) does Tai Chi and Bagua primarily, what were you expecting there? How many hardcore Tai Chi classes have you gone to?

[lunghushan]

So where do you train now?

Tell ya what... go over to Quantum and let them know your theory. They would be glad to enlighten you.

Andy Dale (wuji) does Tai Chi and Bagua primarily, what were you expecting there? How many hardcore Tai Chi classes have you gone to?

I've been to a couple of pretty good Tai Chi places, for example, Chu Tai Chi in NY, and in San Diego, Mike Patterson.

As for going over there ... no ... I don't currently train anywhere because I don't think schools focus enough on hygiene and disease prevention. Honestly a school with a lot of gay guys I would never go to given the high HIV rate.

Once again, I don't doubt these comments will be offensive to some people, so I'm sorry, but it's just the plain truth.

[christianmoses]

I don't currently train anywhere because I don't think schools focus enough on hygiene and disease prevention.

So you don't don't train anywhere because you're scared of getting sick, but it's the gheys that aren't training hard enough? Yeah, ok...

[lunghushan]

So you don't don't train anywhere because you're scared of getting sick, but it's the gheys that aren't training hard enough? Yeah, ok...

I don't train at a SCHOOL. I said I didn't train anywhere (meaning no school) I didn't say I don't train.

As for getting sick ... it's a very real concern and something not addressed because people are so freaking stupid. You know that they encourage Hep-C positive people to take martial arts for health? Don't even get me started ...

And the courts agree with me on that point as well. It's a crime they allow people with these diseases into sparring sessions given the ease with which they can be transmitted.

http://www.hivplusmag.com/column.asp?id=343&categoryid=1

Montalvo v. Radcliffe

Anyway, I don't see what me or any particular phobia a person has might have to do with people doing their martial arts softly. Quantum trains hard, great ...

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmm, Kung Fu uniforms, with colored Karate belts...:rolleyes:

[sunfist]

I dont get how this 'womens school' thing works.... is it set up like a giant kitchen and they bake things?

[MasterKiller]

This thread has spiraled into the ridiculous.

lunghushan/niel is the biggest idiot in the world. He's a ****phobe and a germaphobe, not to mention just plain old stupid.

Women's gyms like Curves provide women a comfortable place to work out free from male intimidation, which comes in many forms, from better performance to ooogling eyes. This place is no different.

[Wood Dragon]

I dont get how this 'womens school' thing works.... is it set up like a giant kitchen and they bake things?

They start off with the "Making a Sandwich in the I-pattern" form.

[christianmoses]

This thread has spiraled into the ridiculous.

lunghushan/niel is the biggest idiot in the world. He's a ****phobe and a germaphobe, not to mention just plain old stupid.

Women's gyms like Curves provide women a comfortable place to work out free from male intimidation, which comes in many forms, from better performance to ooogling eyes. This place is no different.


Thank you. With that I'll bow out, because it's obvious to me that anyone who has read this thread critically can see the points I've attempted to make. Thank you all for your time.

[lunghushan]

lunghushan/niel is the biggest idiot in the world. He's a ****phobe and a germaphobe, not to mention just plain old stupid.


Thank you for the vote of confidence. Because if you actually thought I was smart, then I'd probably have to start worrying. :)

[Royal Dragon]

Well, I guess it's settled, they are just another Japanese/wannabe Chinese, karate club.....