how many forms can a person learn?

[brucereiter]

how many forms can a person learn and become skilled at?

if a person says they learned over 100 forms when they were young is this possible?

what about 500?

would their reputatuion be questioned?

i ask this because what i imagine would be a reputable shaolin monk say this and it goes against many things people say on these forums.

what do you think?

[Blacktiger]

Its funny when you start kung fu you want anything you can get your hands on in relation to forms.

Then as you get older and the forms pile up you realise what it takes to master a system or style....always dropping some form for a while to go back and work on another - its hard to keep it all on the level but thats the fun of it :)

[Burning Palm]

To learn a form & perfect it -- the answer is obvious. One if you're lucky.

[Shaolinlueb]

sin the knows thousands of forms doesnt he?

[brucereiter]

sin the knows thousands of forms doesnt he?

i have heard many people who do not study with him say that ... lol, but this thread is not about sin the' or the # of forms he knows ...

is it possible to "know" 100 forms?

how about 500 forms?

black tiger pointed out a valid concern depending on how you train this could be a problem.

burning palm,

what does it mean to perfect a form? are you implying that people can not master more than one form? sun lu tang who was said to be master of taiji, bagua and hsingyi, how can this be explained?

how about modern shaolin masters like shi de yang (i think maybe one of the most respected shaolin monks around), i do not know how many forms he has but i have seen him do many styles and forms via vcd's and various documentries i have seen. i am sure i have seen more than 100 and would not think that i have seen everything he knows.

[Shaolin Master]

Yes but even Shi Deyang is best when performing Da Hong quan, his trademark.

The question is like asking how many things can a person learn, the answer is really dependent on the person, conditions etc....but more importantly how many can they perfect and again it is dependent on time, person, conditions, etc....

answer.....it depends

[David Jamieson]

You can learn and retain a lot.
Everybody is different as well, we are not near the same to each other when it comes to learning, retention and ability to apply.

so, for some people, over time, 100 is doable.


HOWEVER...:)

It is my experience that teachers will indeed learn a lot of forms but not really really know quite a few of them because they favour others. So they can know 100, but practice for themselves only a few and at any given time have complete mastery over only a few.

That doesn't mean they aren't a master. It's just a matter of how to handle the information.

and yes, a great majority has one, may two forms that they favour and always have as the gun in the belt.

[brucereiter]

Yes but even Shi Deyang is best when performing Da Hong quan, his trademark.

The question is like asking how many things can a person learn, the answer is really dependent on the person, conditions etc....but more importantly how many can they perfect and again it is dependent on time, person, conditions, etc....

answer.....it depends

very good input, i agree ... thanks.

[brucereiter]

You can learn and retain a lot.
Everybody is different as well, we are not near the same to each other when it comes to learning, retention and ability to apply.

so, for some people, over time, 100 is doable.


HOWEVER...:)

It is my experience that teachers will indeed learn a lot of forms but not really really know quite a few of them because they favour others. So they can know 100, but practice for themselves only a few and at any given time have complete mastery over only a few.

That doesn't mean they aren't a master. It's just a matter of how to handle the information.

and yes, a great majority has one, may two forms that they favour and always have as the gun in the belt.

it has also been my experience that some people learn a lot of forms / styles and really only excel at a few of them. maybe there are other benefits that being great at fighting with every single move you have been shown. the mind need excercise too, keeping it active all the time by learning new things is i think good to develope the mind. i think many martial arts talk about mind body and spirt.

once a person has "mastered" their body i think it might be more practical to learn many forms and maybe without a solid foundation learning many new forms will cause problems in your development.

[Judge Pen]

once a person has "mastered" their body i think it might be more practical to learn many forms and maybe without a solid foundation learning many new forms will cause problems in your development.


I agree with that. I see many people who have that problem.

[GeneChing]

How many songs can a musician learn? Sure Chuck Berry might be able to play hundreds of songs based off the same riff, but it's all about Johnny Be Goode. The same could be said for Deyang after a fashion.

A lot of people thing of forms as something they can possess, something they can hold in their hands, like a belt on a belt display (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Ranking_Belts.html). But forms are like songs. It's art that moves through time. So at one point, I had about 70+ forms. Now, I only have about ten or twenty, and truth be told, I only practice 8 of them regularly, plus one sparring form. My master said that once you've done a form a thousand times, it becomes part of you. I think that's true in a metaphoric sense. There are some forms, like tan tui, that I've done so many times, they're pretty stuck in me. Not that I execute them very well anymore, but I still have them and could probably teach them to novices. With a little spit and polish, I could probably make them shine again, but my practice has moved on. Anyway, if I could hold 70 in my prime, someone like Deyang, who practices all the freaking time, could probably hold a few hundred forms.

I think the distinguishing point is that I would not claim to have 70 forms now. In fact, the last thing I need now is another form. I'm just trying to work with what I got, which isn't much, but it's enough for me now.

[brucereiter]

How many songs can a musician learn? Sure Chuck Berry might be able to play hundreds of songs based off the same riff, but it's all about Johnny Be Goode. The same could be said for Deyang after a fashion.

A lot of people thing of forms as something they can possess, something they can hold in their hands, like a belt on a belt display (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Ranking_Belts.html). But forms are like songs. It's art that moves through time. So at one point, I had about 70+ forms. Now, I only have about ten or twenty, and truth be told, I only practice 8 of them regularly, plus one sparring form. My master said that once you've done a form a thousand times, it becomes part of you. I think that's true in a metaphoric sense. There are some forms, like tan tui, that I've done so many times, they're pretty stuck in me. Not that I execute them very well anymore, but I still have them and could probably teach them to novices. With a little spit and polish, I could probably make them shine again, but my practice has moved on. Anyway, if I could hold 70 in my prime, someone like Deyang, who practices all the freaking time, could probably hold a few hundred forms.

I think the distinguishing point is that I would not claim to have 70 forms now. In fact, the last thing I need now is another form. I'm just trying to work with what I got, which isn't much, but it's enough for me now.

hello gene,

more great input ... thanks. i would think the 50 or so forms you do not practice as much have influenced your development in a positive way for the few you do practice a lot and have made your own.

i agree with the 1000 repetitions idea as long as they are 1000 good reps ... lol

[Pk_StyLeZ]

what your definiton of learn?
to just be able to do the form?
or to understand the form and applications?
sure one can be able to memorize 500+ forms
but being able to do it correctly with the correct power motion and understanding every move, i highly doubt it.

i my self *memorize* close to 50 forms, including empty hands, weapons, and groups forms. it really isnt that hard to remember that many form. but i didnt sa i can do it good now =)

[Burning Palm]

Gene got close to what I was implying. It is a lot like music. You learn some basics that translate to other forms in various ways. Once you reach a certain point it is easier to pick up other forms because of the ones you already know. Does that make sense?

[brucereiter]

Gene got close to what I was implying. It is a lot like music. You learn some basics that translate to other forms in various ways. Once you reach a certain point it is easier to pick up other forms because of the ones you already know. Does that make sense?

yes that makes good sense ...

[brucereiter]

what your definiton of learn?
to just be able to do the form?
or to understand the form and applications?
sure one can be able to memorize 500+ forms
but being able to do it correctly with the correct power motion and understanding every move, i highly doubt it.

i my self *memorize* close to 50 forms, including empty hands, weapons, and groups forms. it really isnt that hard to remember that many form. but i didnt sa i can do it good now =)

i guess a definition of "learn" could be to have a solid understanding of the "body method" and principals of the form and to be able to apply those concepts in fighting. this might sound weird but i do not think you must master each and every move of a form to really understand its body method and to apply the concepts of the form in fighting, there are a few moves in my forms i just do not do well but my overall understanding of the concepts the form is teaching me is still there ...to add to that i think a "form" is only a tool to teach you body a way of moving ...

i am sure many people who have just 2 forms might not understand how to apply them ...

in the last 10 years of training i have learned about 15 martial art forms (some very long and complex and some short) and about 6 meditation/chi kung type of forms. i think i have some skill and understanding with 3 martial forms. but the others have had a positive influance on my over all skill and with continued practice i think i will gain skill with them too ... (i hope ... lol )

[brucereiter]

interesting artical in this months inside kung fu magazine:
shi goulin is being interveiwed and is talking about shi yanju, he says when he was younger he studied over 100 forms and if you ask him know he can do 500.

what do ya'all think of this statement?
is it common for shaolin monks to practice that many forms?

[Yao Sing]

Personally I don't see any value in 100+ forms. Actually I think way less is appropriate, even knowing multiple styles.

Quite a few styles have an all-encompassing form the contains all the moves of the style. Anything beyond that is just teaching different variations of combos.

Besides, if you really know the style you should be able to create forms as needed.

[brucereiter]

Personally I don't see any value in 100+ forms. Actually I think way less is appropriate, even knowing multiple styles.

Quite a few styles have an all-encompassing form the contains all the moves of the style. Anything beyond that is just teaching different variations of combos.

Besides, if you really know the style you should be able to create forms as needed.

is it possible that it trains your mind to practice "different variations of combos?

how many forms are enough?

[The Xia]

Actually I think way less is appropriate, even knowing multiple styles.
I disagree. Many great masters had/have multiple styles under their belts. Some styles even compliment each other.

[Yao Sing]

The Xia, I meant way less sets not styles. Yes it's true there are great masters that had multiple styles but I believe the numbers of forms were much less in the past.

Knowing multiple styles if fine. I just don't think you need to know 100 forms to know a style.

shaolindoiscool
You should be practicing different combos of moves anyhow. You don't need a complete form for that.

Would you prefer a form for every possible combo? That's unrealistic.

[GeneChing]

I have a definition issue about mastering forms. I would say that I had a good chunk of a lot of forms at one time, but now I don't have them at all. Now, mastering forms implies some sense of permanance, so let's just extrapolate that. If I had mastered said forms back then instead of just my 'good chunk', would I still be a master now? Of course not. I've forgotten them. You might imply that if I had mastered them I wouldn't have forgotten them, but I've been in the martial world far too long to bite at that. I've seen masters forget. I've even seen Guolin forget. Which brings us to shaolindoiscool's question "is it common for shaolin monks to practice that many forms?" The answer is it was for some. Some of the monks learned many many forms, especially the late 80's generation. I don't think it's quite the same now. It's worthy of note that many spend more time in practice then most of us spend at work. Many Shaolin students, and I'm not just refering to monks, spend six days out of seven a week training. Those days can easily be 6-8 hour regimens. So with that much time on task, it's quite conceivable to get a good chunk of a few hundred forms. That's part of what makes Shaolin very exciting. People get very caught up in the commercialism or the modern wushu influence, or whatever, but truth be told, it's a community that supports thousands of practitioners to practice at an astounding rate. If you go to Shaolin, you can get wrapped up in all the controversy, or you can practice all those hours. Which would you choose?

[Yao Sing]

I know people like to get all espteric and say it takes years and years to master a form but the reality is that if you understand and can apply all the moves of a specific form then you have mastered that form

Beyond that, if you can execute and understand the moves and have explored the variations then you have master that technique.

If you understand the principles and can execute them regardless of specific moves then you have mastered the style.

Simple as that. How long that takes is individualistic. For some it could be a few years, for others maybe never.