How Realistic is PRC's Shaolin?

[lunghushan]

How realistic does everybody think the Shaolin martial arts taught now in the PRC are? Do they do any real fighting, or is it mainly for show?

It seems to be mainly showy long fist type stuff in most of the demos. Not sure how useful it really is for self defense purposes.

[Jumpin'Sidekick]

In my opinion there are traditional forms taught, along with modern traning methods. In my opinion the fighting is san shou.

[Radhnoti]

Anthony Graceffo says they lack a few things for real fighting...
Here's one article he wrote:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=424

I believe he also wrote 2 for the physical kungfu quigong magazine in which he speaks of several encounters he had there with Shaolin temple inhabitants. Didn't he say that they didn't have a good grasp of the importance of throwing combinations? But, he also said if they hit you with one of their "set up" single shots it would floor you.

[lunghushan]

That's a really sad article. I think I won't talk about Shaolin anymore. It is even worse than I had thought.

[jigahus]

Yes the article is sad, but it realistically depicts conditions in China.

[lunghushan]

It's interesting because all those places that train Shaolin, if the stories are correct that there were only 4 monks left at the end of the 'Cultural Revolution' (systematic destruction), then why would anyone in their right mind go to China to study Shaolin?

It seems you could get a better or equal education here in the U.S. of Shaolin forms from Wing Lam or from some of the other people who fled before the Cultural Revolution.

Anyway, the stories of taking away the photos was a bit discouraging because it really seems like he should have let them save face and given them some of the photographs or at least deleted the ones they thought were showing them badly.

He mentions that he thought he could take them, but at any point they could have pulled weapons. Of course, then they would have been killing their golden goose, so to speak.

[GeneChing]

...and it was quite different than my experience at Shaolin, let me tell ya. And I don't say that with any disrespect to my old Sifu. BSL is a wonderful system. But then, so is Songshan Shaolin.

We haven't run anything from Antonio for a spell, but we were first to publish his story, which he later ran in BB and in his book. Ironically, he sent me an email from Korea today. Antonio has his opinion, one that I personally respect but don't agree with. The situation at Shaolin is incredible. If you think you can sum it up by yourself, you haven't even scratched the surface. If you think you can judge it by what some one else says, whether it be Antonio, the Abbot, or me, ha! AT the very least, read some of my tales of Shaolin. You'll find some of them for free in our e-zine (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/TOC/index.php#C). They'll give you another perspective.

[lunghushan]

Yeah I guess I shouldn't judge. But I don't think I'll going to be China, either.

My old sifu used to try to get me to go every year, but I never wanted to go. I still don't, because of the persecution of various religious movements.

Your articles are kindof dense, though, Gene. You've gotten to do a lot of stuff.

I have to say you're just about the only person in the world that I've met that make me jealous of their lives. You and Tiger Woods.

[lunghushan]

So I went through those articles, but I have to admit, that I don't really get it.

???

I'm not understanding why, I guess. I mean, Gene, you've gone to Shaolin a ton, and you've studied with Wing Lam, but I don't really get the point behind Shaolin, I guess.

I mean, they're acrobatic, their forms are big and long, they get really strong and all that, but why go through all the trouble to to over there to study that when you already took Shaolin in the U.S. and there are other teachers in the U.S. like Bak Shaolin?

It seems like an agenda beyond just studying Shaolin, to somehow renewing martial arts in China through promotion of Shaolin or something.

I'm not really understanding it.

A lot of people I've talked to have gone to China, have dealt with the crowdedness, the sick stomach, the greasy food, the sometimes crooked dealings, 2 price system and all that, yet they still seem to speak highly about it.

In fact, a couple people came back with Chinese wives.

I just don't understand the appeal. From everything people say it sounds like a really crappy thing to do, yet everybody that does it seems to love it. ???

[Radhnoti]

I didn't bring up Mr. Graceffo's article to badmouth Shaolin, just to be clear. It was just the first one I thought of where the author compared his fighting ability with temple inhabitants.

[lunghushan]

I didn't bring up Mr. Graceffo's article to badmouth Shaolin, just to be clear. It was just the first one I thought of where the author compared his fighting ability with temple inhabitants.

Yeah I'm not trying to badmouth it either (although I might be doing a good job), I just don't really get it.

But then again I was kindof young for that show 'Kung Fu' even though I caught all the reruns. Maybe people to go Shaolin for the mythology and not necessary the actual martial arts.

Because it doesn't seem like you would need to go to Shaolin to learn to fight.

[B-Rad]

I mean, they're acrobatic, their forms are big and long, they get really strong and all that, but why go through all the trouble to to over there to study that when you already took Shaolin in the U.S. and there are other teachers in the U.S. like Bak Shaolin?
You don't go to China JUST to study kungfu, you go for the same reason you visit any other country. Experience the sites, culture, etc. Even if you only want to study one of the new Shaolin systems with one of the "monks", you can still find that closer to home if you want. There's more to life than becoming a kungfu master.

I've been to China once and really liked it. Some things are worse than U.S., some better, some just different :p

[Justaguy]

I didn't bring up Mr. Graceffo's article to badmouth Shaolin, just to be clear. It was just the first one I thought of where the author compared his fighting ability with temple inhabitants.

Yes - and this is no disrespect to Graceffo - but I don't put too much faith in one person's account of their fighting ability versus someone elses.

I've met people who trained at Shaolin who had really good kung fu. Your milage may vary.

[bungbukuen]

I think this video very nicely sums up the state of Shaolin kungfu these days. A gold medal staff performance at the First World Traditional Wushu Tournament in China 2004.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-kqdUXqI9c

Gene, did you have any staff forms like this from your BSL days?:p


BBK

[lunghushan]

I think this video very nicely sums up the state of Shaolin kungfu these days. A gold medal staff performance at the First World Traditional Wushu Tournament in China 2004.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-kqdUXqI9c

Gene, did you have any staff forms like this from your BSL days?:p


BBK

Uh ... I don't know what to say about that form. Except that scratching the head like a monkey is pretty apt. ??? Take out the monkey head scratching stuff and it's not bad, although the stances aren't very good. Probably not every form in wushu is a monkey form, though?

[GeneChing]

Jamel runs a Shaolin school out of Brooklyn. He's an old friend and I actually saw that performance live when I was at the The First World Traditional Wushu Festival (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-gc001.html) (no, his performance did *not* make make DVD, although there's a nice pic of him in my e-zine article about it.) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=588) We ran an article on Jamel titled Hip Hop and the Dharma: Shi Guolin's Disciple Jamel Brown Brings it All Together By Martha Burr, back in our 2002 Shaolin special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144). Frankly, if that was all Shaolin was about, I couldn't practice it. I just don't have those kinds of jumping, flipping skills. Note that 'gold medal' in reference to this event is slightly deceptive. Everyone who acheived a certain criteria score received a gold medal.

[Ravenshaw]

Haha love that penultimate picture in the e-zine article.

You've lost it, man.

... or did you ever have it?

[omarthefish]

Without trugging through the entire article and all the other assorted stuff you could dig up, the shortest explanation is just to say that the Shaolin Temple, at present, is simply an officially appointed "flagship" so to speak for Shaolin Gongfu. It exists primarily to market all the stuff people associate with Shaolin Gongfu in their imaginations but the place it's self, in regards to the training, the forms, the sparring and so on, is pretty much the same as what you find at any Wushu University throughout China. You could find nearly the exact same training and curriculum at the Xi'an Sports University or at the Beijing Sports University, at the Zhao Xiangjun Wushu School in Xi'an and so on.

It's a set of govt. approved standardized form for forms competition and basic Sanda for the uh...Sanda competition.

That's all it is. No better. No worse. Just more famous and with more government support but make no mistake, is IS a regular wushu school like all the rest. That DOES include Sanda but they don't teach or compete with the traditional forms. They use the govt. standardized versions.

[lunghushan]

Without trugging through the entire article and all the other assorted stuff you could dig up, the shortest explanation is just to say that the Shaolin Temple, at present, is simply an officially appointed "flagship" so to speak for Shaolin Gongfu.

It's a set of govt. approved standardized form for forms competition and basic Sanda for the uh...Sanda competition.

Thanks. That's what it seemed to be.

[GeneChing]

...there's three primary factors that determine a school's success - location, location, location. What the schools of Shaolin have that is above and beyond any other PRC school is location. It's on the central holy mountain of China, built on the foundations of our most venerated temple. It has attracted more schools than any other location in the world. The government support that everyone keeps harping on is only allocated to the temple itself, the Shaolin wushuguan, and the Dengfeng sports university. When I mention those 80 registered schools in Dengfeng, these three are not included amongst the 80. The 80 are all private. Now imagine for a moment trying to run a school in a town where there are 79 competing schools and 3 major government-funded institutions. How might you survive? Some get really good. Others resort to all kinds of chicanery. What makes Shaolin very special is that it is an amazing microcosm of the martial arts world. There's no place else on earth like it.