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Bak Sing
09-02-2006, 12:16 PM
I spent twelve years in Asia studying Chinese Internal Boxing, Qigong and Taoist Arts. One of the most profound experiences I had, was being welcomed into and receiving teaching from a variety of masters and families in the Hui/Muslim or Jiao Men arts. Not just Cha Quan or long fist, but Xingyi Li He, family styles, Baji/Pigua, Tongbei and Fanzi. Shuai Chiao and Tam Tui, and synthetic varieties of Hsing-I and Bagua in the Hui milieu. Lots of other things as well. My point is simple. I believe that Bagua may be a Muslim art, rather than a Taoist one. Or at least, an opportunistic hybrid of the two. Anyone familiar with the Sufi tradition, will get the meaning. The Sufi practice of ecstatic dance, of walking the circle as meditation. The fact that one Dong's top students was a Muslim bodyguard of some reputation. There is more. If anyone is interested, let's open this up for discussion.

lunghushan
09-02-2006, 12:26 PM
No, I think it would be more appropriate to surmise that a lot of other martial arts made their way into the Muslim community.

You have to figure how big is China? How many temples? How many martial arts do they have?

How big is the Muslim community? Do you really think all of that came from the Muslim community?

No ... I highly doubt it. While I don't think that bagua is necessarily a Taoist martial art, I don't think it's a Muslim one.

jack
09-02-2006, 12:38 PM
The circular walking movements in palms was based from the Taoist’s ZhuanTianZun (轉天尊). It’s a kind of circular walking chi-kung.

Mr Kang GeWu (康戈武), a famous PRC martial arts researcher has already make very detail bagua palms research before & confirmed that bagua palms was created by Dong HaiChuan. His research was widely recognized by many martial artists.

mickey
09-02-2006, 03:06 PM
Hello Bak Sing,


You are the second person that I have encountered that mentioned a Muslim connection. The person that I met talked with me about a closed door demo of Bagua. What was demonstrated was Black Dragon Bagua. The person told me that the guy the light skill as well; that may suggest a lineage separte from Dong Hai Chuan because the other lineages have do not have it any more.


Please continue to make your case. I want to learn more.


mickey

fiercest tiger
09-02-2006, 05:46 PM
Doesnt the Bagua work off the Yi Ching which is Taoist, but love to here what you have to say regarding the circle walking and its meditative values!!

Garry

TenTigers
09-02-2006, 05:57 PM
I read somewhere that Dong Hai-Chuan named it Ba-Gua only due to the fact that it walked the Ba-Gua, and only later were relationshiops to the I-Ching added by other teachers.
I had also heard that Dong Hai-Chuan also possessed light skills as well.

mickey
09-02-2006, 06:10 PM
Hi TenTigers,

Thank you for forcing me to reread my post. What I meant about light skills is that the training methods were supposedly lost in the Dong Hai Chuan lineages.


mickey

shiyonghua
09-02-2006, 07:52 PM
Hey Jack,
any place I can read about what Mr. Kang GeWu wrote? I'd be interested

Justaguy
09-02-2006, 08:31 PM
What was the name of the Muslim student of Dong HaiChuan that you mentioned?

One of the only good academic articles on the Chinese martial arts that I've found in English is about Hui Xinyi - "Muslim Martial Arts in China" by Helenan Hallenberg, in the Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs.

She says that many of the Hui martial artists that she spoke with traced Xin Yi and other art forms back to Arab Muslim missionaries that brought them from the Middle East. One traced Xin Yi back to Yue Fei, but said that he had originally learned it from Muslim missionaries that had brought it from Arabia and that it had originated with the Prophet himself. Did you encounter anything along these lines?

I've read that there were hybrid Sufi Taoist practices found in Hui communities (which makes sense, because many Sufis and Taoists have been very in to taking in practices from other traditions) but I haven't heard any specifics from anyone who has learned them first hand. I would be fascinated to hear anything that you came across.

jack
09-03-2006, 03:54 AM
ZhuanTianZun (轉天尊):
http://www.e-wulin.com/news/screen.asp?x=4404

Mr Kang GeWu(康戈武):
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Shop/2006/1139.html
http://www.kungfuland.com/bbs/cgi/topic.cgi?forum=36&topic=48&show=75

Mr Zhang Quan Liang (張全亮):
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Shop/2006/1101.html

Zhang Quan Liang is also a Muslim but I don’t think he would agree that bagua palms came from Arab Muslim missionaries that brought them from the Middle East.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41393

Sorry, most of them are in chinese. I can't find english ones.

Bak Sing
09-03-2006, 04:06 PM
Thanks for all the interest and great posts!

A couple of things.

1. I am not saying that Bagua as a martial art, was "invented" by Muslims. The hand formations or palms, exist in Taoist arts of Qigong and martial styles as well. But the principle of walking the circle as meditation or training, exists in both Taoist and Sufi traditions.
2. I am in a cyber cafe and do not have my notes with me. I will answer questions specific, later. (names, etc.)

3. Hello to Mickey! You are on the right track.

4. The Muslim influence is present in Hsing-I, Bagua and many variations of these arts. Also family and synthetic styles. During the Ching Era especially, Taoist and Hui cooperation and cross polination in the martial arena, was common.


Bak Sing

Bak Sing
09-03-2006, 04:09 PM
I forgot to add, justaguy way to go!

Faruq
09-04-2006, 02:17 PM
That's amazing! I never knew that the Saudi's had martial arts. I had always assumed they only practiced swordsmanship, and any Muslim martial arts were indigenous to China, Indonesia or the Philippines before the Muslim traders arrived and had just become Muslim through the conversion of the practitioners. Another question though, did your source say muslim culture was introduced in China "through trade" or "by the sword"?


What was the name of the Muslim student of Dong HaiChuan that you mentioned?

One of the only good academic articles on the Chinese martial arts that I've found in English is about Hui Xinyi - "Muslim Martial Arts in China" by Helenan Hallenberg, in the Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs.

She says that many of the Hui martial artists that she spoke with traced Xin Yi and other art forms back to Arab Muslim missionaries that brought them from the Middle East. One traced Xin Yi back to Yue Fei, but said that he had originally learned it from Muslim missionaries that had brought it from Arabia and that it had originated with the Prophet himself. Did you encounter anything along these lines?

I've read that there were hybrid Sufi Taoist practices found in Hui communities (which makes sense, because many Sufis and Taoists have been very in to taking in practices from other traditions) but I haven't heard any specifics from anyone who has learned them first hand. I would be fascinated to hear anything that you came across.

mickey
09-04-2006, 04:28 PM
Hello Faruq,


The thread mentioned Arabia, which is the proper name of that area. Saudi Arabia is a late 20th century term. To simply limit the statement to the Saud family would be grossy incorrect.


mickey

Justaguy
09-04-2006, 04:31 PM
That's amazing! I never knew that the Saudi's had martial arts. I had always assumed they only practiced swordsmanship, and any Muslim martial arts were indigenous to China, Indonesia or the Philippines before the Muslim traders arrived and had just become Muslim through the conversion of the practitioners. Another question though, did your source say muslim culture was introduced in China "through trade" or "by the sword"?

Well, that's what the Hui martial artists told the author. She didn't research the accuracy of their lineages, she just talked about how Hui martial artists used their wushu to defiine themselves against the Han majority.

As far if its true or not, I don't even know how you could answer that. Its far enough in the past that all you have are present oral accounts which are contradictory. There may be contemporary accounts of Muslim missionaries teaching fighting skills between 650-1100or whenever, but I haven't come across them. It is the same with some people's contention that Chinese martial arts originally came from Africa. How you could possibly prove that, even if it were true, is beyond me - and certainly beyond our current understanding of history.

There has never been an Islamic invasion of China that I've heard of. Missionaries came over shortly after the Prophet's death, and maybe even earlier. The Mongol invasion of central Asia brought large number of immigrants to China, as well. And there was plenty of trade and diplomatic contact.

Faruq
09-05-2006, 10:22 AM
Anybody know if the Western looking Uygur of China do martial arts? I read about them being largely Muslim in a Christian missionary magazine.


Well, that's what the Hui martial artists told the author. She didn't research the accuracy of their lineages, she just talked about how Hui martial artists used their wushu to defiine themselves against the Han majority.

As far if its true or not, I don't even know how you could answer that. Its far enough in the past that all you have are present oral accounts which are contradictory. There may be contemporary accounts of Muslim missionaries teaching fighting skills between 650-1100or whenever, but I haven't come across them. It is the same with some people's contention that Chinese martial arts originally came from Africa. How you could possibly prove that, even if it were true, is beyond me - and certainly beyond our current understanding of history.

There has never been an Islamic invasion of China that I've heard of. Missionaries came over shortly after the Prophet's death, and maybe even earlier. The Mongol invasion of central Asia brought large number of immigrants to China, as well. And there was plenty of trade and diplomatic contact.

beiquan
09-05-2006, 12:30 PM
CMA are NOT religious practices and do not carry religious affiliations. There are no Buddhist, Daoist, or Muslim martial arts, just arts that may or may not be practiced by people who subscribe to those religious beliefs. Get over it!!!

Shaolin gongfu is not Buddhist. Practicing it will not bring you any closer to enlightenment. There are reams and reams of very detailed writings concerning the practice of Buddhism and Dahongquan is just not part of it.

IMA are not Daoist. The concepts of the Yijing, bagua, five elements, etc. are just part of the general Chinese worldview and historically have been commonly accepted by people of all religious affiliations. Practice of these arts will not make you immortal or win you an office in the Celestial court. Yes, we all know about Zhuan tianzun, it has no similarities to baguazhang except that it involves circular movement.

Jiaomen arts are not Muslim, practicing them will not bring you closer to Allah or get you into Heaven. There are five core practices in Islam and doing Tantui or Chaquan is not one of them.

It is only religious practice when it is aligned with the soteriological goals of that religion. Just because someone of a particular religious affiliation practices some kind of martial art does not make that martial art a religious practice.

As for baguazhang's circular stepping, many styles of martial arts have some kind of circular footwork, including non-Chinese styles. It is an effective way of stepping in a fight. It does not all have to come from one point of origin and it is not at all mystical.

Bak Sing
09-05-2006, 03:25 PM
Hello,

As promised, the name of Tung Hai Chuan's student was Sha Hui Tzu. He was a bodyguard of a royal family member named Su Chin Wang. Chi Lung Feng (Hsing I) is the oldest traceable master of Hsing I with documents and history in the Ming Era. His student, Ma Hsueh Li was a Muslim. He founded the Honan branch of Hsing I.

Zenshiite
09-05-2006, 03:39 PM
CMA are NOT religious practices and do not carry religious affiliations. There are no Buddhist, Daoist, or Muslim martial arts, just arts that may or may not be practiced by people who subscribe to those religious beliefs. Get over it!!!

Shaolin gongfu is not Buddhist. Practicing it will not bring you any closer to enlightenment. There are reams and reams of very detailed writings concerning the practice of Buddhism and Dahongquan is just not part of it.

IMA are not Daoist. The concepts of the Yijing, bagua, five elements, etc. are just part of the general Chinese worldview and historically have been commonly accepted by people of all religious affiliations. Practice of these arts will not make you immortal or win you an office in the Celestial court. Yes, we all know about Zhuan tianzun, it has no similarities to baguazhang except that it involves circular movement.

Jiaomen arts are not Muslim, practicing them will not bring you closer to Allah or get you into Heaven. There are five core practices in Islam and doing Tantui or Chaquan is not one of them.

It is only religious practice when it is aligned with the soteriological goals of that religion. Just because someone of a particular religious affiliation practices some kind of martial art does not make that martial art a religious practice.

As for baguazhang's circular stepping, many styles of martial arts have some kind of circular footwork, including non-Chinese styles. It is an effective way of stepping in a fight. It does not all have to come from one point of origin and it is not at all mystical.

I think you're misconstruing the entire notion of the thread. There are family styles and systems that are unique to Chinese Muslims, and that have been kept largely within the Muslim communities. I've read stories saying that one could only lineage in certain styles if they converted to Islam. Those arts are "Muslim martial arts", they are not "Islamic martial arts" in the sense that they somehow enrich one's Din(religious discipline).

Internal martial arts were pioneered by Taoists, so how you can say that they "are not Taoist" I don't know. Perhaps the application of Taoist yogic forms into fist/fighting forms won't inherently help one to acheive immortality, but it could indeed lead to that if that is one's goal.

The same can, and has been, be said of Shaolin martial arts. While the mere practice of Shaolin kung fu won't lead one to become a Buddha... it could enable one to have more endurance to meditate to achieve that goal. Hence why DaMo formulated the earliest roots of Shaolin chuan. It is a martial art unique to Chan Buddhists... so technically, yes it is Buddhist.

Bak Sing
09-05-2006, 06:05 PM
Thank you to Zenshiite for the clarity and focus.
Our friend beiquan seems to be looking for conflict, or at least an argument.
Let's set the record straight.

We are talking about the fascinating thread of Muslim Boxing (in CHINA!) because it is not a common topic. We are not pushing any religious beliefs or spiritual doctrine. We are not trying to pigeon hole, define or categorize the arts into any "neat boxes". We are trying to discuss/learn or gain insight into this unique thread of Chinese martial history and tradition. Interesting that the Communist government, when considering the formulation of a "national martial art" (Wushu), they chose as the foundation: Tam Tui or Spring Leg and Cha Quan. Their belief was that the Muslim lineage was less "corrupted" or more "pure" that the other martial lines in Mainland China at that time. Obviously, other arts contributed to this effort and to Wushu. But most are only aware of the obvious Northern arts: Fanzi, Mantis, Eagle Claw and Long Fist (Chang Quan). Actually, Chang Quan is yet another attempt at "national art" or Kuoshu, taken on by the Republican government in Nanjing in the 1920's. My point, we hear alot about Buddhist and Taoist martial tradition in China. We hear some about rare family styles. But, until recently (90's) we heard very little about the Hui tradition of Jiao Men in China. Yet, Shang Dong Sheng, the great Shuai Chiao master in Taiwan, was Muslim. We are talking about tradition and art, religion is the social thread that may help to maintain or spread it certain communities. Nothing more. The Sufi/Taoist connection is an observation based on subjective (similar philosophical ideas) and objective (walking the circle) evidence that is a point of discussion designed to broaden perspective beyond the limited scope of this and that. Let's not miss the forrest, for the trees. Does it really matter if an art is Taoist or Muslim, of course not! For interest: the black dragon symbol was purported to be the flag flow by Chagamir, the famous Hui military/martial hero (Cha Quan's Founder(?) ) who fought Japanese pirates at sea.

lunghushan
09-05-2006, 06:12 PM
Interesting that the Communist government, when considering the formulation of a "national martial art" (Wushu), they chose as the foundation: Tam Tui or Spring Leg and Cha Quan. Their belief was that the Muslim lineage was less "corrupted" or more "pure" that the other martial lines in Mainland China at that time.

Or maybe they just killed off the other decent teachers... :)

Supposedly the Muslims were isolated from a lot of the population. They might have had an easier time practicing wherever they were. Supposedly the Commies cracked down a lot on martial arts and artists especially in the big temples. Practicing MA could get you into big trouble.

Justaguy
09-05-2006, 07:13 PM
CMA are NOT religious practices and do not carry religious affiliations. There are no Buddhist, Daoist, or Muslim martial arts, just arts that may or may not be practiced by people who subscribe to those religious beliefs. Get over it!!!

Shaolin gongfu is not Buddhist. Practicing it will not bring you any closer to enlightenment. There are reams and reams of very detailed writings concerning the practice of Buddhism and Dahongquan is just not part of it.

IMA are not Daoist. The concepts of the Yijing, bagua, five elements, etc. are just part of the general Chinese worldview and historically have been commonly accepted by people of all religious affiliations. Practice of these arts will not make you immortal or win you an office in the Celestial court. Yes, we all know about Zhuan tianzun, it has no similarities to baguazhang except that it involves circular movement.

Jiaomen arts are not Muslim, practicing them will not bring you closer to Allah or get you into Heaven. There are five core practices in Islam and doing Tantui or Chaquan is not one of them.

It is only religious practice when it is aligned with the soteriological goals of that religion. Just because someone of a particular religious affiliation practices some kind of martial art does not make that martial art a religious practice.

As for baguazhang's circular stepping, many styles of martial arts have some kind of circular footwork, including non-Chinese styles. It is an effective way of stepping in a fight. It does not all have to come from one point of origin and it is not at all mystical.

What do you mean by saying that they aren't religious? I don't know about soteriology as being a basis for something being religious - why? A wedding isn't geared towards salvation, but the Catholic church recognizes it as being a religious sacrament. Beyond the 1,001 examples that I could list (healing, curses, Buddhist social justice movements, Christian liberation theology, etc.) why focus on that one narrow definition of religious?

Yes, practicing tan tui is not one of the five pillars of Islam, but some Hui practitioners tie their practice to a Hadith (a saying attributed to the Prophet or early prominant Muslims) of the Prophet saying that you should practice wrestling, among other physcial arts. It is a weak Hadith (one who'se authenticity is not 100% accepted), but it is a way to frame their practice in religious terms.

There are a lot of guidelines that people follow in their every day life as part of their understanding of what it means to be a Muslim that aren't among the five pillars, and aren't even from the Koran. Hadith and Islamic law, among other sources.

There is nothing in the bible about putting lights on a tree on December 25th, for some people it is very Christian, and for others it isn't Christian at all.

Sure, the five elements, and various other theories found in the IMA are not exclusive to any school of Daoism. Daoist is probably one of the most vague and contradictory words out there. Definitions range from belonging to a specific established Daoist sect, relating to the five elements, yin and yang and related concepts in Chinese culture and 1,001 other things. So, if something is Daoist or not depends on what you mean by "Daoist".

The connection between Bagua stepping and Daoist circle walking meditation practice is the best researched version of where it came from that I've found. I can see you arguing that the connection hasn't been proved, but how can you conclusively say that its not true? Based on what?

TaiChiBob
09-06-2006, 04:47 AM
Greetings..

This concern with lineages, as you can see, breeds conflict.. that is the nature of ideologies that separate rather than unite.. although i find Taoist philosophy sound and unifying, i am not concerned with its realtionship to the Arts.. Now, before you go off on me, if there is a benefit to the arts by utilizing a particular aspect of a belief system, then it is utilized, but.. without transferring religious trappings or philosophical contrivances.. The Art will survive and flourish without assigning religious conotations.. Religions breed conflict, that is their nature. Whether Bagua originated in China or the Middle East does not alter its effectiveness.. and, time spent conjuring lineages and researching histories distracts us from the practice the Art requires.. People can meet and practice their Bagua or any Art without ideological conflict, but.. start a lineage discussion and watch the mess develop..

There are very few Arts that can "prove" their ancestry.. but, each Art can demonstrate its effectiveness.. that, is the issue.. whether it is the "authentic" art or not has no bearing on the effectiveness of the discipline.. it works, or it don't..

Be well...

Bak Sing
09-06-2006, 02:26 PM
Thank You Tai Chi Bob for your philosophical attempt to qwell the troubled waters of human interaction.

Again, is religion in the martial arts important? Probably not! Does it find its way into almost ever aspect of social life? Yes!

The reason we discuss this is in regard to transmission and the social fabric of different periods in the evolution of the arts. I might add, that in all arts, the mental focus of "will" or "intent" or "force of mind", is viewed as important. It is considered a critical part of IMA. In the past, such training was not widely available, except through the offices of a "school" specializing in such training. Most of them were religious organizations, teaching mental discipline, meditation and contemplation. Dr Phil was not yet invented. Only now, are we beginning to fully explore this without the "hint" of religious dogma, so that we may access these "skills" without indoctrination. I might add the no one has mentioned or observed that Sufi is not Islam or, in fact Moslem! To be in the world, but not of it. It is the way of presence, without dogma. Sufi lives within the "shell" of Islam. But it is at home in many places and times. The only "way" that has presented this training without dogma or religious taint, is Sufi.


Now we move on to a couple of interesting bits that I touched on briefly.

ChaShagmir (fully name) was a Hui military/martial hero of the Ming Era. He is credited with creating both Tan Tui and Cha Quan. Other arts have a great presence or tradition in the Hui community, but this appears to be the only art that was "invented" solely by members of the Hui, for the Hui. Originally Tan Tui had 28 routines or sets, one for each character in the Arabic alphabet. As the art gained popularity and moved outside the Hui community, it was condensed to ten steps(the 28 routines were combined to form 10 steps) There as 10 step, 12 step and 14 step Tan Tui (spring leg) routines. They are found in virtually all Northern Styles of Long Fist or Wushu (Eagle Claw/Fanzi, Mantis, Northern Crane, MiTzong, etc.). They are all derived from the same source.

Many of the masters I trained with in Mainland China, were Moslem. Many masters were imprisoned or killed during the Cultural Revolution, regardless of their religion. Much was lost. Many of these masters were told that if they "helped" the Government to "create" Wushu, they would be pardoned and released. This is the dirty little secret of Wushu. It is why I have no traffic with it, or the People's Republic anymore. The main reason (I believe) that I was taught these arts was to carry on the tradition, separate from what was "given" to Wushu. I am not Moslem, but as many of my masters said; it's what's in your heart that matters! The same with masters of other arts with Buddhist, Taoist or no religious background at all! I was given tuition not because of any particular religion or belief, but because of my individual merits as a man.

Finally, for those interested. We can discuss the Hui influence and presence in Hsing-I, Bagua and the Tongbei/Baji/Pigua arts. There is also a Hui strain of wrestling or Shuai Chiao, separate from the other noted schools (Mongolian, etc.) of Chinese wrestling. Lastly, the meditative quality of walking the circle in Bagua always raises controversy. Is it just to condition the legs and train footwork? Some people argue about the existance of CHI, and its value or merit. What you choose to believe is your business and your right. But, your rights end at the tip of my nose. I have my rights as well. So long as they do not interfere with yours! Please then, observe this with all people, so we may live in harmony and respect!

Bak Sing
09-06-2006, 02:32 PM
Thank You Tai Chi Bob for your philosophical attempt to qwell the troubled waters of human interaction.

Again, is religion in the martial arts important? Probably not! Does it find its way into almost ever aspect of social life? Yes!

The reason we discuss this is in regard to transmission and the social fabric of different periods in the evolution of the arts. I might add, that in all arts, the mental focus of "will" or "intent" or "force of mind", is viewed as important. It is considered a critical part of IMA. In the past, such training was not widely available, except through the offices of a "school" specializing in such training. Most of them were religious organizations, teaching mental discipline, meditation and contemplation. Dr Phil was not yet invented. Only now, are we beginning to fully explore this without the "hint" of religious dogma, so that we may access these "skills" without indoctrination. I might add the no one has mentioned or observed that Sufi is not Islam or, in fact Moslem! To be in the world, but not of it. It is the way of presence, without dogma. Sufi lives within the "shell" of Islam. But it is at home in many places and times. The only "way" that has presented this training without dogma or religious taint, is Sufi.


Now we move on to a couple of interesting bits that I touched on briefly.

ChaShagmir (fully name) was a Hui military/martial hero of the Ming Era. He is credited with creating both Tan Tui and Cha Quan. Other arts have a great presence or tradition in the Hui community, but this appears to be the only art that was "invented" solely by members of the Hui, for the Hui. Originally Tan Tui had 28 routines or sets, one for each character in the Arabic alphabet. As the art gained popularity and moved outside the Hui community, it was condensed to ten steps(the 28 routines were combined to form 10 steps) There as 10 step, 12 step and 14 step Tan Tui (spring leg) routines. They are found in virtually all Northern Styles of Long Fist or Wushu (Eagle Claw/Fanzi, Mantis, Northern Crane, MiTzong, etc.). They are all derived from the same source.

Many of the masters I trained with in Mainland China, were Moslem. Many masters were imprisoned or killed during the Cultural Revolution, regardless of their religion. Much was lost. Many of these masters were told that if they "helped" the Government to "create" Wushu, they would be pardoned and released. This is the dirty little secret of Wushu. It is why I have no traffic with it, or the People's Republic anymore. The main reason (I believe) that I was taught these arts was to carry on the tradition, separate from what was "given" to Wushu. I am not Moslem, but as many of my masters said; it's what's in your heart that matters! The same with masters of other arts with Buddhist, Taoist or no religious background at all! I was given tuition not because of any particular religion or belief, but because of my individual merits as a man.

Finally, for those interested. We can discuss the Hui influence and presence in Hsing-I, Bagua and the Tongbei/Baji/Pigua arts. There is also a Hui strain of wrestling or Shuai Chiao, separate from the other noted schools (Mongolian, etc.) of Chinese wrestling. Lastly, the meditative quality of walking the circle in Bagua always raises controversy. Is it just to condition the legs and train footwork? Some people argue about the existance of CHI, and its value or merit. What you choose to believe is your business and your right. But, your rights end at the tip of my nose. I have my rights as well. So long as they do not interfere with yours! Please then, observe this with all people, so we may live in harmony and respect!

" HUI HUI Tan Tui!"

mickey
09-06-2006, 04:29 PM
Hi Bak Sing,

You are not adding much to your original statement: that Bagua may be of Muslim origin. You are going all over the place.

As far as Tan Tui is concerned the 10 line versions do not have the technical complexity as the 12 line Chin Woo version. The most complex 10 line version I have seen is the one published by Ma ZhenBang: 10 Routine Spring Leg. And that version still does not come close to the Chin Woo version. That book was the first to link the Chasangir/Cha Chuan origin to Tan Tui.


mickey

beiquan
09-06-2006, 07:05 PM
Thank you to Zenshiite for the clarity and focus.
Interesting that the Communist government, when considering the formulation of a "national martial art" (Wushu), they chose as the foundation: Tam Tui or Spring Leg and Cha Quan.
This is not new, Tantui was part of the basic training of most Republican era academies, including the Nanjing Guoshuguan and the Jingwu school in Shanghai. It's a perfect beginner set, anyone who has learned it will agree.



Their belief was that the Muslim lineage was less "corrupted" or more "pure" that the other martial lines in Mainland China at that time.

Unless you have documents produced by the PRC that state this explicitly, you are simply expressing your own opinion as objective fact.



My point, we hear alot about Buddhist and Taoist martial tradition in China. We hear some about rare family styles. But, until recently (90's) we heard very little about the Hui tradition of Jiao Men in China.

Yes, and all of this stuff about "Buddhist" and "Daoist" martial tradition is made up. There are martial arts and there are religions, and they are not the same thing. This whole idea of Buddhist or Daoist martial arts was invented by wuxia authors based on false hagiographies and latched onto by Orientalizing Westerners who are only interested in the exotic, esoteric, etc.
It used to be that only those with access to Chinese-language scholarship on the history of CMA could read the works of those scholars who have worked hard to disprove these myths, but nowadays Western scholars are beginning to work on these issues too. Brian Kennedy's recent book on martial arts manuals has an excellent summary of such scholarship.



The Sufi/Taoist connection is an observation based on subjective (similar philosophical ideas) and objective (walking the circle) evidence that is a point of discussion designed to broaden perspective beyond the limited scope of this and that.
Point taken. Yes, in both religious traditions there is some kind of practice that involves circular movement. In Buddhist monasteries it is common to practice walking meditation done while circumambulating an altar, why do you not argue that Bagua stepping has Buddhist roots? My point is that you are grasping at straws trying to posit some kind of grand connection. As far as similar philosophical ideas... this is not the forum to discuss that :)

beiquan
09-06-2006, 07:29 PM
What do you mean by saying that they aren't religious? I don't know about soteriology as being a basis for something being religious - why? A wedding isn't geared towards salvation, but the Catholic church recognizes it as being a religious sacrament. Beyond the 1,001 examples that I could list (healing, curses, Buddhist social justice movements, Christian liberation theology, etc.) why focus on that one narrow definition of religious?
Well, that is how I am defining religious practice, as practice oriented towards fulfillment of specifically defined religious goals. If you want to talk about religious practice as something else then we first need to clarify what we are talking about before discussing specific traditions.



Yes, practicing tan tui is not one of the five pillars of Islam, but some Hui practitioners tie their practice to a Hadith (a saying attributed to the Prophet or early prominant Muslims) of the Prophet saying that you should practice wrestling, among other physcial arts. It is a weak Hadith (one who'se authenticity is not 100% accepted), but it is a way to frame their practice in religious terms.
If this is true, then it is very interesting. I personally have never seen such an explanation. I have spent time in China, I have known Hui people, and I have never heard of this before.



Sure, the five elements, and various other theories found in the IMA are not exclusive to any school of Daoism. Daoist is probably one of the most vague and contradictory words out there. Definitions range from belonging to a specific established Daoist sect, relating to the five elements, yin and yang and related concepts in Chinese culture and 1,001 other things. So, if something is Daoist or not depends on what you mean by "Daoist".
Again, if you want to argue about the definition of "Daoist" then this is a separate topic. I'm currently writing my doctoral thesis on medieval Daoist practice, I have spent a great deal of time reading both primary and secondary sources on Daoist beliefs and practices and have furthered my studies in both Taiwan and mainland China. When I use the word "Daoist" I know exactly what I am talking about and in my opinion these concepts, not being exclusive to (and in fact predating) the Daoist religious tradition, should not be labelled "Daoist."



The connection between Bagua stepping and Daoist circle walking meditation practice is the best researched version of where it came from that I've found. I can see you arguing that the connection hasn't been proved, but how can you conclusively say that its not true? Based on what?
Based on my own research into this practice and my own study of baguazhang. Zhuan tianzun is a type of ritualized stepping (common in Daoist ritual practice, the most famous being the Yubu or Steps of Yu), specifically a ritual practice of circumambulation while chanting hymns that occurs during specific stages of the zhai ritual. Having studied baguazhang myself, I just don't see any connection whatsoever between the two except for the circularity; circumambulation is common in many religious traditions. I would love to be proven wrong, I never said that it is impossible that baguazhang stepping was perhaps inspired by this; however, I personally prefer the simpler explanation that circular stepping is an effective combative technique. Personally I believe that the only reason that a connection was made between the Zhuan tianzun practice and bagua stepping is that historians were attempting to justify the original myth that Dong learned bagua from some mysterious Daoists. This (the shadowy Daoist teacher) is a common device in Chinese popular hagiography and I personally believe it to be hyperbole.

beiquan
09-06-2006, 09:07 PM
how about this:
As I learned it, baguazhang circle walking is a training method, most CMA styles have basic methods of training stances and footwork. Circle walking develops various skills that are important in the overall development of baguazhang shenfa, such as where/how to step, balance, postural alignment, rooting, etc.
What does any of this have to do with Buddhism, Daoism, Islam, or any other religion?

Scott R. Brown
09-07-2006, 03:19 AM
There is also a Spanish swordsmanship school, I think frpm the late Renaissance, that used circle walking. I can't find the treatise in my paperwork. If I can relocate it I will post the name.

TaiChiBob
09-07-2006, 04:44 AM
Greetings..


Thank You Tai Chi Bob for your philosophical attempt to qwell the troubled waters of human interaction.LOL.. Should i reply with a delighted "you are welcome"? You are welcome! <humble bows>

After satisfying the academic ambiguities and establishing a reliable lineage hierarchy, what then? Train! Practice! Refine!

Be Well..

Bak Sing
09-07-2006, 03:18 PM
Oh what a can of worms!

Tai Chi Bob, thank you for your sense of humor! (As I had hoped.) No disrespect was intended.

The debate over 10, 12, 14 routine Tan Tui is pointless. EVERYBODY has a Tan Tui routine these days. It has become part of the Wushu/Northern Fist curriculum. If you are getting your info from books, I am sorry for you. Who ever said "complex" was better? As far as the whole mountain of crap regarding Buddhist and Taoist is concerned. The Chinese venerate their ancestors. They tend to mistrust "new" or "innovation". Hence, the wandering Taoist who is the founder of every style and sliced bread as well! Myth! Yes! A VAST CONSPIRACY AND COVER-UP TO CONCEAL THE TRUTH FROM FOREIGNERS! Hardly. The Chinese love their myths and legends, and they are not beyond a bit of hyperbole. We were talking about a connection between the Sufi/Dervish tradition and Bagua's circle walking. Like, oh hey look at this! Maybe I'll try this out. Oh, this is interesting! Peeking thru the keyhole! Look what I saw! Now we have hairsplitting and the Chicken and Egg debate! It's little wonder that some of the folks, who earlier on, wanted to get some info here, have remained silent. Now we have the professional hacks babbling!

lunghushan
09-07-2006, 03:28 PM
Professional hacks babbling. That is encouraging.

Who the heck really cares? Did the sufis invent bagua? It seems highly unlikely since no two types of bagua are the same. It seems like the stories that Dong Hai Chuan taught people according to their experience is more realistic.

My personal hypothesis is that Dong Hai Chuan was nothing but a really good waiter, with a lot of experience, and his experience waiting tables in a crowded restaurant was the foundation for baguazhang, and everything else was just stories.

Refute that.

Bak Sing
09-07-2006, 03:33 PM
Thank you Lung! The dragon speaks!

Bak Sing
09-07-2006, 03:41 PM
Now that we have them going. What about Xingyi Liu He? Why does this Moslem art, have a linear and circular routine that is "very similar" to Bagua?

lunghushan
09-07-2006, 03:45 PM
Now that we have them going. What about Xingyi Liu He? Why does this Moslem art, have a linear and circular routine that is "very similar" to Bagua?

Why do you keep calling things 'Moslem Arts'? You really think that xingyi and xingyi liu he didn't exist outside the Moslem communities?

Since there are different versions of these both inside and outside the Moslem communities it stands to reason that there was cross pollination. I don't think you'll be able to prove one way or the other.

Xingyi has 9 palace forms as well. Bagua isn't the only art with 'circular' walking. For example, Ziranmen has basket walking which is the same as the bagua 'circular' walking. In fact, the GBT bagua teaches basket walking just like Ziranmen.

So ... ??? Which came first the chicken or the egg. I don't know. And I don't know anybody who does know.

Faruq
09-07-2006, 03:46 PM
Shaolin gongfu is not Buddhist. Practicing it will not bring you any closer to enlightenment...

It is only religious practice when it is aligned with the soteriological goals of that religion. Just because someone of a particular religious affiliation practices some kind of martial art does not make that martial art a religious practice...

I have to admit that although I don't agree with your opinion, you sure make a good argument. Though I don't refute your assertions, I maintain my opinion, and submit the following portion of an article again to suggest that martial arts practice may indeed bring you closer to enlightenment:


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezin...hp?article=626

"Martial Arts as a Vehicle to Self-Development
Virtually every country (Buddhist or otherwise) in the far-east has an aspect of its culture that extols martial endeavour – in both theory and in practice. China, with its many systems of internal and external kung fu; Japan, with its 'Budo' (i.e. 'Martial Way') arts; Okinawa, with its various forms of 'Te'; Korea with its famous (and relatively modern) Tae Kwon Do, as well its more ancient arts (for example, Muksodo and Tangsodo, etc); Vietnam, with its Vietvodo; Thailand, with its various forms of Muay Thai; Sri Lanka, with its Tamil arts (also practiced in southern India and called 'Kalaripayit'); and a number of other countries including Tibet, Indonesia, Laos and Cambodia. From this brief and incomplete survey, a pattern emerges of a close association between spiritual development and martial art practice. This is not surprising, as the Lord Buddha, living around 500 BCE in north India, was of the 'Kshatriya' (or 'Warrior and King) caste of Hindu society. Such a caste prepared their young men for both action on the battlefield and enlightened leadership upon the country's throne. The Buddha (Siddharta Gautama) was no exception to this rule. The Buddhist scriptures tell us how He was trained in Hindu philosophy, Yoga and martial arts. Hindu society, like its Chinese counterpart, had always acknowledged the link between psycho-spiritual development and that of physical development – but more than this, it was also acknowledged that at the highest levels, the distinction between the 'psychological' and the 'physical' falls away, to reveal a clear, pristine Mind that embraces the universe, within which all things manifest – including our own physical bodies. This philosophical concept of 'oneness' is further emphasised by the fact that just 'silent sitting' in meditation was not enough to transcend the suffering of life on the physical plane. Simply ignoring the 'physical' world does not make it 'go away.' Practicing the in-depth and diverse movements of the many styles of martial art – with a concentrated and developed mind (acquired through seated meditation) creates the perfect balance of 'mind' and 'body.' For when the physical body is aligned, and that body is merged with the 'One Mind,' universal energy flows and there is nothing that can not be achieved. If the Mind is enlightened through seated meditation, that is its essence; when the Mind moves the body on the physical plane, that is its function. All things accord, and there is peace..."

Zenshiite
09-07-2006, 06:59 PM
Regarding someone's statement about a hadith that says to practice wrestling... the closest thing that I've found in my studies(I am a Muslim) is a hadith that says:

"Three things that you amuse yourself with are valid, all others are void; practicing archery, training your horse for war, and playing with your wife."

I have personally used that as inspiration for my study of martial arts.

I will take issue with Bak Sing's statement regarding Sufism not being "Muslim," it is indeed Muslim. Any shaykh worth his salt will speak of the necessity of practicing the base form of Islam... Shariat. It's like your root, without which you cannot attain Tariqat, Haqqiqat or Marifat. It may not be "Muslim" in the sense that self-appointed clergymen or Saudi Wahhabists or other such characters are "Muslim" but I would say that Prophet Muhammad(sal) was not "Muslim" in that sense either... nor was Imam 'Ali(as), or any of the other Prophets and Messengers(as). Regardless, Sufism is solidly rooted in Islam and in my experience those that practice "Sufism" without Islam lack substance.

Faruq
09-07-2006, 07:49 PM
As far as the hadith, maybe you should ask the guy which compilation he found it in (I'd doubt it was Sahih Buxari), who it is attributed to , and the specific lineage (for lack of a better term) it is from, however weak it may be. I mean, as many hadiths as there are from all the different traditions or lineages, it would be near impossible to have read them all, much less to remember them all even if you had read them all.

TaiChiBob
09-08-2006, 05:46 AM
Greetings..

Enlightenment, hmmm.. i see the term used quite a bit, but.. i still await a description that is consistent with the surplus of publicity it gets.. so many people refer to some path to enlightenment, but when asked what "enlightenment" is, they fail to give a reasonable answer.. so, it begs the question: if you can't define it, how do you know the path goes there?

This philosophical concept of 'oneness' is further emphasised by the fact that just 'silent sitting' in meditation was not enough to transcend the suffering of life on the physical plane. Simply ignoring the 'physical' world does not make it 'go away.' Practicing the in-depth and diverse movements of the many styles of martial art – with a concentrated and developed mind (acquired through seated meditation) creates the perfect balance of 'mind' and 'body.'Herein lies the problem, the division of the whole into parts.. "mind and body".. it is truly One thing.. we parse it out into aspects for convenience, but the result is the notion that they are separate.. it is as though we create a game to deceive ourselves into playing..

And, enough of the "life is suffering" stuff.. or, at least if that is your notion, deal with it yourself.. life is GREAT! even when it sucks, it sucks GREATLY! suffering is excess baggage that we simply don't need, and.. all you need to do is set it down and let go of it.. it is sad, for me anyway, to see people sitting around in deep meditations, rejecting so much of the experience that is unique to this GIFT of physical existence.. it is almost an insult to the Source of that which IS, to be afforded this unique opportunity to experience a physical existence complete with its rich depth of amazing experiences.. and then to sit and chant your way past such a gift.. is their pain in living, sure, it's inevitable.. suffering, though, is an attachment to that pain, that somehow to bear the pain serves you at some higher level.. it's just pain, the compliment of pleasure, Yin and Yang.. seeking to avoid pain is to unbalance the equation, seeking to avoid suffering is just choosing not to lug around excess baggage.. it is not an inherent human condition.. even in the darkest of experiences, the most painful of circumstances, i rejoice at the opportunity to experience it.. the alternative is nothing..

Now that we have them going. What about Xingyi Liu He? Why does this Moslem art, have a linear and circular routine that is "very similar" to Bagua?I wish i cared enough, or had enough background to properly address this issue, but i am lacking in both.. If my position hasn't been clear, i will try to state it more clearly.. I am a simple person (yep, simple minded, too).. i spent too much of my life distracting myself with passions of authenticity and lineage.. only to find that there is a far more dependable way to gauge an Art's worth, practicallity.. Lineage and authenticity is the ego's need to categorize and regulate one's position in the heirarchy of life's struggles.. a practical understanding of principles and their application to any Art will serve you ten-fold over any litany of lineage or claim of authenticy. It is my personal philosophy to live the Art and evaluate its practical application and benefit, discard that which does not serve you in your quest, and assimilate that which does.. In this manner you can truly develop YOUR art, and break the bonds of servitude.. no innovation has been born of strict adherence to a lineage or discipline.. our choice to pursue Internal Arts is also a choice to keep them alive.. alive as contrasted by stagnate rote adherence to form and lineage.. the Internal Arts are living and evolving, alive with potential, and eager to reveal more to the dedicated seekers.. provided the seekers are not distracted by the minutia..

I do have a certain fondness for history and correctness, but there's the rub.. seldom do the stories and myths of antiquity correspond to "correctness", more often it is a preference of beliefs.. so, i watch with some interest as these threads seek to unravel the mysteries of time, but.. my heart is in my practice.

Be well..

PS: Bak Sing: the banter is delightful, and.. without humor, what's the point?

lunghushan
09-08-2006, 09:16 AM
There is another martial tradition that claims a Persian influence or something, which is Genbukan, an offshoot of Bujinkan. They claim that they have some old Persian scrolls or something.

So really, I have no idea. It is possible that some martial arts were bred in some Moslem community or came from Persia or something.

So much has been lost in Chinese history and so much is not available to outsiders. And so much has been distorted for political gain.

mickey
09-08-2006, 03:21 PM
Greetings Bak Sing,

Looking through this thread a few times makes it overwhelmingly evident to me that you have failed to provide any concrete information to support your belief as to why Bagua may have a Muslim origin.

Additionally, the person that I mentioned that performed Black Dragon Bagua may have received his light skill training elsewhere for this kung is not unique to Bagua.

I have long believed that Bagua is part of the Lohan Shaolin tradition hands down. I am always open to differences in opinion even when my meditation practices prove otherwise. Unfortunately, pearls of wisdom derived from meditation are not accepted as fact during these times.

If you can not bring the hard stuff, I will have to leave this thread alone.

I wish you well with your teachings. I do believe you have much to offer. Forever honor your ancestors, for they are forever with you.


Respectfully,


mickey

lunghushan
09-08-2006, 03:43 PM
Bottom line, Bak Sing, is it doesn't matter if everybody believes you or not.

If you can get students to believe your story, that is enough. Then you can teach and make $$$ and be yet another martial arts teacher. LOL

Justaguy
09-09-2006, 10:10 AM
I always feel like I’m being argumentitve when I give point by point replies to long posts, so sorry if this comes off that way. But you gave me a long, thoughtful reply so I figured the least I could do is respond with the same. This is probably getting way off topic, though...


Well, that is how I am defining religious practice, as practice oriented towards fulfillment of specifically defined religious goals. If you want to talk about religious practice as something else then we first need to clarify what we are talking about before discussing specific traditions.


Yes, I think its great that you started out by saying what you define religion as - most people use words like that in very imprecise ways. I think that in looking at ways of defining or conceptualizing religion you can fall into framing it too widely that things that clearly aren't religious fall in, or framing it too narrowly so that things that clearly are religious are left out. I’m sure that in the work that you’re doing, such a narrow definition of religion works - I think that there is a lot of value in looking at historical Daoism in very specific detail.

I don't know how well such a narrow definition of religion works at looking at religion in general. Many religions claim to be comprehensive systems that encompass every aspect of life (if they succeed in this or not is another question). It is my understanding that the idea that “religion” constitutes a discrete category of human life, distinct from “politics”, “economics”, etc. is a principle of Western secularism that can’t be taken for granted. Other cultures may have similar views, but many do not. It is also clear that there have been reactions against Western secularism from a religious standpoint - rejecting the idea that religion can be put in a specific box - Christian fundamentalism in the US, and political Islam, for example.

In the Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Modern Capitalism, Max Weber shows how a particular religious (as you define it) orientation - Calvinist predestination, directly lead to business and social activities that are completely worldly (hard work, investment, etc.).

In Islam Observed, Clifford Geertz shows how in Indonesia and Morocco people drew on Islam as a source of resistance against European colonialism, adopting religious orientations (strict scriptural literalism) in response to a political crisis towards political ends.

In Politics of Piety Saba Mahmood shows how teachers in classes on how to live according to Islamic ideals in an Egyptian piety revival movement don’t separate religious acts (having the correct attitude towards preying) from worldly acts (not arguing with your family members) - teaching that preying correctly will lead you to act harmonious with your family and vice versa.

I think that its clear that a lot of what people who claim to adhere to a given religious tradition consider part of that tradition isn’t directly related to transcendence. I’m more interested in seeing how they tie it all together than making divisions between authentic and inauthentic practices. I think that the only way that I could tell people what is real Buddhism or Daoism is if I were a Buddhist or Daoist - which I’m not. I’m an aspiring social scientist and I’m trying to make sense of the meaning people invest in what they do as best I can. Sure the Buddha never practiced Dahong Quan, but how then do Shaolin monks relate it to his teachings?



If this is true, then it is very interesting. I personally have never seen such an explanation. I have spent time in China, I have known Hui people, and I have never heard of this before.


Did you talk to Hui martial artists about the relation between their arts and their religion/ethnic identity? If so, what did they say? (That’s not a challenge, I'd be interested to hear)

Sorry if i didn't make it clear, I was basing this on the article - Helenan Hallenberg, "Muslim Martial Arts in China: Tangping (Washing Cans) and Self-Defence" - that I mentioned in my first post.

She is not a martial artist, but was interviewing Muslim martial artists in her work on ethnic identity in China. Maybe she saw things that were lurking beneath the surface, and maybe she put them on the spot by asking irrelevant questions, and they told her what she wanted to hear. I dunno - give me your email address, I'll send you the article and you can decide for yourself.



Again, if you want to argue about the definition of "Daoist" then this is a separate topic. I'm currently writing my doctoral thesis on medieval Daoist practice, I have spent a great deal of time reading both primary and secondary sources on Daoist beliefs and practices and have furthered my studies in both Taiwan and mainland China. When I use the word "Daoist" I know exactly what I am talking about and in my opinion these concepts, not being exclusive to (and in fact predating) the Daoist religious tradition, should not be labelled "Daoist."


I didn't mean to suggest that you don't understand what you mean by "Daoist". I meant that most martial artists who called their practice "Daoist" meant something very different by it than you do when you say it isn’t. When I heard it used, it was usually a claim to authenticity based on general sense of "tradition". While some teachers do believe that their styles are associated with or derived from Daoist neidan, or claim to be initiated into Daoist lineages themselves - most that I've spoken too (granted, not that many) don't. It took me a while to reconcile the contradiction in those two understandings of Daoism in my first Bagua master. He had a reputation for really understanding Daoism. He described many things that he has spent his life doing as "Daoist" bagua, taiji, qigong, fengshui, etc. But when I asked him if he believed in Daoism, he said no. Daoism as an adjective for traditional practices was different than Daoism as a faith (Daojiao in both cases).



Based on my own research into this practice and my own study of baguazhang. Zhuan tianzun is a type of ritualized stepping (common in Daoist ritual practice, the most famous being the Yubu or Steps of Yu), specifically a ritual practice of circumambulation while chanting hymns that occurs during specific stages of the zhai ritual. Having studied baguazhang myself, I just don't see any connection whatsoever between the two except for the circularity; circumambulation is common in many religious traditions. I would love to be proven wrong, I never said that it is impossible that baguazhang stepping was perhaps inspired by this; however, I personally prefer the simpler explanation that circular stepping is an effective combative technique. Personally I believe that the only reason that a connection was made between the Zhuan tianzun practice and bagua stepping is that historians were attempting to justify the original myth that Dong learned bagua from some mysterious Daoists. This (the shadowy Daoist teacher) is a common device in Chinese popular hagiography and I personally believe it to be hyperbole.

Personally, I always thought the idea that Dong Haichuan was a Chuanzhen Daoist was questionable because he was a eunuch. If you're not supposed to waste your jing through sex, I would imagine that cutting your balls off would be even worse.

Sorry if I was being overly snippy in my original reply, I just think that beyond a certain point in tracing the history of martial arts practices you get into foggy territory where no absolute statements can be made either way. Even if there were direct similarities in the two practices, it could easily be a coincidence. I think that Bruce Frantzis said that he saw Taoist monks in a Yunnan temple practicing circle walking meditation that looked just like bagua. He used that as proof that bagua was part of Daoist practice stretching back thousands of years. These days, they may very well have been adopting bagua to their meditation, not vice versa.

And yes the Shadowy Daoist teacher is a common way to establish legitimacy in Daoism - and I'm sure a lot of the time its not true. Are Bagua masters who use it to establish the "Daoist" roots of Bagua saying things that aren't true in a way that is authentic to Daoist tradition? Just a thought.

Justaguy
09-09-2006, 10:40 AM
My personal hypothesis is that Dong Hai Chuan was nothing but a really good waiter, with a lot of experience, and his experience waiting tables in a crowded restaurant was the foundation for baguazhang, and everything else was just stories.

Refute that.

Well, cleary he was initiated into an obscure cult of Guan Gong that worshiped him as the patron God of Restaurants through ritual waitering. He then saw that it could be extended to being a bouncer, and from there to a body guard.

Everyone knows that.

Scott R. Brown
09-09-2006, 12:12 PM
Hi Justaguy,

From my point of view you do not seem to be argumentative. Your comments appear to be well thought out as well as thought provoking. On this section of the BB we generally have mature discussions even when we disagree. At times we do have heated debates and on rare occasions it can get seemingly childish. However, for the most part we try to keep it open and friendly even when we disagree. From what I have read you will fit in well here.

Your comments have been very thought provoking for me and motivated me to write down some of those thoughts. These comments are just random thoughts I have had inspired by your own comments and are not necessarily a response you or beiquan, although please feel free to respond if you feel they are worthy of comment.
_____

It seems to me that when a scholar discusses his field of study, or writes a treatise, he must define his basic terms. By necessity and the standards of scholarship this could restrict his flexibility and thereby his comprehensive understanding of a topic. While I am not claiming beiquan is doing this, scholars may unknowingly limit their understanding and acceptance of definitions or views that occur outside of their basic definition or the definitions of colleagues whose authority they accept.

While beiquan has not defined what he considers Taoism to be for us, it is likely many would not agree with his definition. However, for the purposes of his doctoral thesis he must provide a clear definition for the benefit of his readers.

I consider myself a student of Tao; I have a philosophical interest in the principles of Tao. I have studied Tao, its principles and its manifestations for over 30 years. I seek to bring myself into accord with the principles of Tao. In my younger days I relied somewhat on what are considered Taoist texts for direction and guidance, however I no longer do so. Not that I no longer read Taoist texts, but I do not allow the texts to confine or define my experiences for me. I rely on direct experience which is a truer guide than the words of others. While I consider life from a somewhat Taoist perspective to label myself a Taoist would tend limit my experience and understanding. This is because definitions are inherently confining and by accepting a strict definition we bind ourselves to that limit and this will tend to interfere with our overall progress. I choose to attempt to avoid the limits of strict definition because I would perhaps feel the need to confine my experience and expressions by the limits of that accepted definition.

Therefore, I consider myself a student of Tao and not a Taoist.

Neither do I consider Chinese authorities the final word on Tao and its manifestations. Tao is a universal concept that has been studied and written about primarily in China, but the concepts are not unique to China. Truth belongs to all people if it is indeed truth. If the principles of Tao are Truth then they are true for all people at all times. Just as water makes everyone equally wet and the sun shines on all equally the truths of Tao are available to understand and experience by all people at all times equally. There is no need to consider Tao a strictly Chinese concept even if the considered primary texts and studies are of Chinese origin.

In my opinion it is inappropriate for anyone to say to another, “That is NOT Taoist.” We may say “THAT” does not “APPEAR” to be Taoist according to my understanding of the principles of Tao, but to impose the limits of our definition on another may actually demonstrate our own limited understanding rather than a lack of understanding of the one we presume to criticize.

Some time in the last year or so we had a discussion on this BB wherein a man who considered himself a true Taoist participated in a discussion with some of us. He wanted a Taoist to be HIS definition and because some of us did not accept his definition he felt we were being oppressive of his view. All that many of us were attempting to communicate to him was that his definition was his and while we respected it as his definition we found it limiting and presumptuous to dictate to others how Taoism should be defined.

There may be a gross separation between various definitions, but who is to say anyone is the final arbiter of any definition. If we accept the truth of what the Tao Te Ching teaches concerning Tao: “The Tao that can be defined is not the True or Complete Tao”, then who has the right to impose their own definition of what constitutes a Taoist onto others?

Bak Sing
09-09-2006, 02:29 PM
Wow!


I hope that Mickey and others will find this, amid all the various and sundry postings.

I will try to keep this short. In my travels and study throughout China, I was impressed with the generous nature of the Hui people. They were some of the most kind and non-judgemental folks, I ever had the pleasure of meeting. Their martial arts practices ranged the entire gamut. Some practiced Tai Chi, others Wushu. Others practiced family arts loosely based on various other styles or combinations thereof. Baji/Pigua, Xingyi, Bagua, Tongbei, Cha Quan and Tan Tui. Just because a Moslem does Tai Chi, doesn't make Tai Chi a "Moslem" art! However, when you make changes or alterations to an art and teach it exclusively or semi-exclusively among your own ethnic or religious group, that might qualify as an "ethnic" art. Last time I checked, anybody could do Karate, not just Okinawans. But they brought "te" to Japan and the rest was history. Does it really matter who invented what? Not really! Is it interesting or enlightening to politely discuss the subject? I thought so, until recently! Ethnic or religious origin has no bearing on effectiveness in combat. But we are on the Net, this VIRTUAL! We can not "DO" gung fu! We can only discuss the subject. Beiquan wanted documentation regarding a comment re: PRC and Moslem Tan Tui in Wushu, as more "pure". I normally don't have a secretary, tape recorder or notery public, with me when I am speaking with someone. Sorry! I do know for a fact, that I and others, paid a ransom to get someone out of a PRC prison. I will say no more about this, due to the safety and privacy of people still living in the PRC. This was a person with some martial arts connection and no criminal record.

My point has always been this. We all know the stories about the wandering Taoist (Daoist, for the nitpickers!) teaching some fantastic skill, art, technique or style that lead to the creation/formation of --------------(fill in the blank) style. And, of course we all know that [B]ALL[B]martial arts in China, came from the Shaolin Temple, right? I was giving the Hui people a little credit for preserving and creating some diversity in the Chinese Martial Arts. If you can't handle, don't believe or will not accept that some varieties of Baji, Xingyi (Liu He, in particular) or Bagua, are or may be Moslem in origin, too bad! What I don't mean is that these arts were a "religious" invention. My conjecture regarding the Sufi(not Islam, Sufi!)connection regarding walking the circle as a meditative exercise and the Bagua practice, was an interesting observation. Have any of you so called "experts" ever seen a real Dervish Meditation from the Mevlevi School? Not a "performance" for the tourists, but the real thing? OH! I never said Moslems "invented" the Kuas or palm changes. But they have come up with their "own take" on Bagua. Just like a few other things. Did it ever occur to anyone out there, that making an art "Taoist" was probably more paletable that having the art be "Hui". Just a thought! People don't want to even accept the idea that Cha Quan and Tan Tui were created by some guy named Cha, who was Moslem. But, the idea the Yueh Fei created Hsing-I in the Sung Era, or Chang San Feng dreamed up Tai Chi is just fine. There is documentation from the Ming/Ching era, earlier than that, is sometimes problematic to find "proof" for your "pet theory". Second generation students in both Hsing-I and Bagua, who were Moslem, is undeniable. Did they "invent" it? Did they change it? Did they pass it on? The Wu family of Cangzhou, are Moslem and have a family style of Baji. The Ma,Xu,Li and Sha families all have, among their vast repetoires of martial knowledge, family and synthetic styles of Xingyi, Xingyi Liu He and Bagua, Baji/Pigua and Tongbei, that are different enough from the orthodox to be called "styles" of their own.(not all families have all the styles listed.). As far as, "bringing it" or trying to capitalize on this commercially, all I can say is; how sad are you? If I wanted to make money on this, maybe writing books or a Website would be more effective that this! So I leave you now to muddle your way though all this, because it's no longer of any point or purpose. Bye! Bye! Best Wishes and Good Luck!

P.S.

I never commented on the Uigher connection or the odd friendship/association that I personally witnessed between Taoists(real, not the funny robe guys) and Sufi/Muslims in China. Oh well!

And remember, Mickey lives in Disneyland. So does the Shaolin Temple run by the PRC. (Don't even bother with Wudan, they left no forwarding address!):) :eek: :eek: :eek:

lunghushan
09-09-2006, 02:57 PM
Bak Sing, it seems like you need to bring along that tape recorder next time.

Because basically what you're saying is that you think a whole lot of martial arts are Hui martial arts, you have absolutely no proof whatsoever except hearsay, but you want everybody to please accept what you're saying as the truth or at least for a discussion.

??????

Honestly I have no evidence of the Hui and you're not providing any. Therefore ... ???

mantis108
09-09-2006, 03:50 PM
Daoism has at least 3 "forms" in Chinese society.

1) Scholastic Daoism (philosophy)
2) Religious Daoism (organization)
3) Folk Daoism (Shamanism)

Most of the time Chinese don't particularly discern them. It's like many in Christianity would not understand thoroughly the theology behind it. When Chinese talk about Daoism, it is all inclusive. This is why it is quite confusing trying to discuss Daoism. In general, it is understood that scholastic Daoism is known as Dao Jia (Daoist school); whereas, Dao Jiao (Daoist religion) is the the organized religious branch of Daoism. Lao Zi is accredited as the "sole" progenitor of the scholastic Daoism because of his treaties Dao De Jing but it is believed that Daoist school of thoughts existed even before Lao Zi. Most people don't realized that Lao Zi's work is consistent with acient knowledge that is found in the so called 6 Classics (Liu Jing) which includes the Yijing (Classic of Change). These classics are considered important cultivations for a person to become a true human being. They are "the way" as in a path of living and passage of life as human being. Lao Zi did not created his work out of "nothing" (pun intended).

A lot of the concepts in the Dao De Jing echo those found in the Yijing as well. BTW, many Kung Fu systems made use of these concepts. Dao De Jing is more like a "political" thesis IHMO; while, Yijing is more a theoretical model of nature. The opening line of Dao De jing is not just theoretical in nature. It is also a statement, a central theme if you will, to reproach the ways (hyprocracy) of the political environment and high society at time. He warned of the increasingly "military-industral complex" and capitalism that feudal China was experiencing during his time and its impact on the country as a whole. He offered the kings and rulers his 3 treasures - compassion, modesty, and humility as the remedy to save the country. Anyway, IMHO to fully understand Daoism (all forms) one must consider its historical and social contexts as well.

As for Dao Jiao, it a totally different story. He who follows Daoist philosophy does not have to be involved in Daoist religion. Spiritual inclination has nothing to do with organized religion and/or politic IMHO. Just as Church and State should be seperate in a democracy (sorry couldn't help due to the latest criticism that the Catholic Pontiff has given to Canada.) So...

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

Justaguy
09-09-2006, 04:31 PM
The best article that I've found on the confusion surrounding the meaning of Daoist is:

On the Word "Taoist" as a Source of Perplexity. by Nathan Sivin
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~nsivin/perp.html

lunghushan
09-09-2006, 05:04 PM
I've never come across any Ching or pre-Ching dynasty text from China from anybody who actually referred to themselves as a Taoist.

Does such a thing exist?

Scott R. Brown
09-09-2006, 07:56 PM
While I am generally disinterested in these types of scholastic questions it seems important to remember that definitions are created to distinguish, THIS from THAT, US from THEM. Definitions are inherently arbitrary. They divide phenomena that do not inherently occur as separate entities. Therefore, definitions should never be considered as establishing the absolute parameters of any phenomenon. A definition is a tool used to assist us in the communication of ideas. The definition (tool) is not the thing itself and all tools have limits to their usefulness. We must remember that the objective is for a definition (tool) to serve us, not for us to serve it. When a tool is no longer adequate for our purpose we may discard it for a more useful tool!

While it is interesting to considered ideas for the purpose of expanding our knowledge and perspective, we must consider whether a specific view is worth becoming emotionally attached too when it is inherently unknowable in an absolute sense.

Sometimes we place way too much importance on who created this or that. Ideas and concepts are not created they are apprehended. Anyone who is seriously considering any science, art or phenomena will observe certain characteristics that occur inherently in relation to that subject of study. A cup has inherently the same properties no matter which culture or time of history in which it was made. Walking is inherently the same for all people and all cultures. We all have two arms and two legs that bend the same way. Strategic concepts from different cultures will have similar principles at their lowest common denominator. So if two people on separate sides of the planet apply themselves to the study of the same topic they are likely to apprehend the same principles even if they are expressed differently according to their specific needs and culture. Circle walking, whether for meditative purposes or MA purposes, will eventually be seen to have value by individuals who seriously study those subjects. It is not necessary to have only ONE person apprehend its value and all others learn from that ONE individual.

This is not to suggest that considering possible connections between phenomena has no value in and of itself. It is just important not to allow ourselves to become too offended when a view we hold dear is not appreciated as much by others.

lunghushan
09-10-2006, 06:25 PM
Maybe I've been around the Chinese too much but it seems like people there say whatever will suit them when it comes to martial arts lineage.

For example, some teacher will claim something is 'Taoist' because they think it will sell. If the person isn't interested in 'taoist' but rather 'Shaolin', then they'll say that what they're teaching very close to 'Shaolin' or that 'Shaolin' has things in common with 'Taoist', or that what they are teaching is better than 'Shaolin', etc. Whatever it takes to get the person's money.

So when somebody comes to me now and tells me they figured out this great thing that these martial arts are actually Moslem, it is probably naturally to ask ... what are you selling?

???

What are you selling? By saying these are Moslem you're setting yourself apart in the marketplace, so what are you selling? That Moslems are the source of CMA? That you're a great teacher?

What are you selling?

Bak Sing
09-11-2006, 04:16 PM
Hi,

If you listened even half as much as you talked, you might learn something. I never said the "Moslems" invented all or most of the martial arts of China. The fact that you're debating the whole "taoist" issue is laughable. What any of you know about Taoist Arts, would comfortably fit in the eye of a gnat. Are you a little phobic about Islam? Or simply narrow minded and ignorant. As far as Wudan or Taoist practices go, not Tai Chi, Hsing-I or Bagua. They maybe based on principles, theories and symbolism from Taoism, but they are not Taoist. Nor are the guys in funny outfits selling "authentic Wudang arts" videos. Always trying to find the short cut, will lead to just that, a short cut. People always use Wudan or Taoist, much like Shaolin, to market or validate their teaching or arts. Rarely, does it have anything to do with the real thing.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

Bak Sing
09-11-2006, 04:18 PM
Nothing! My question; What are you buying?:) :confused: :confused: :confused:

lunghushan
09-11-2006, 04:45 PM
If you listened even half as much as you talked, you might learn something.

You haven't really posted anything to learn from. Where is the proof of your assertion? Where is video? Where is any evidence? There is none you have given except hearsay.




I never said the "Moslems" invented all or most of the martial arts of China. The fact that you're debating the whole "taoist" issue is laughable. What any of you know about Taoist Arts, would comfortably fit in the eye of a gnat. Are you a little phobic about Islam? Or simply narrow minded and ignorant. As far as Wudan or Taoist practices go, not Tai Chi, Hsing-I or Bagua. They maybe based on principles, theories and symbolism from Taoism, but they are not Taoist. Nor are the guys in funny outfits selling "authentic Wudang arts" videos. Always trying to find the short cut, will lead to just that, a short cut. People always use Wudan or Taoist, much like Shaolin, to market or validate their teaching or arts. Rarely, does it have anything to do with the real thing.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make, I guess, is that stuff about 'Shaolin' or 'Wudang' or 'Taoist' is all marketing gimmick, right?

So why are you trying to argue the Moslem connection? What is your agenda?

Scott R. Brown
09-11-2006, 08:08 PM
Hi Bak Sing,

I spent twelve years in Asia studying Chinese Internal Boxing, Qigong and Taoist Arts. One of the most profound experiences I had, was being welcomed into and receiving teaching from a variety of masters and families in the Hui/Muslim or Jiao Men arts. Not just Cha Quan or long fist, but Xingyi Li He, family styles, Baji/Pigua, Tongbei and Fanzi. Shuai Chiao and Tam Tui, and synthetic varieties of Hsing-I and Bagua in the Hui milieu.

You want us to accept your expertise on Muslim arts, Sufism, Taoism, or gnats because you claim 12 years of training in China?

I am sorry to inform you of this, but you are baby in martial arts training. 12 years is nothing and length of training has no necessary connection to learning, ability, understanding, wisdom or maturity. You may claim anything you want, but acceptance of your “dubious” authority is foolish! So please excuse us for not bowing down to your claimed expertise! You have provided nothing but weak support for your assertions and derogatory remarks for those who disagree with you. Derogatory comments reduce respect for your character which contributes to nullifying your authority on the subject. People will have a tendency to not accept the authority of those whose character is in question.

It might have been time better spent to use some of your 12 years learning how to provide rational arguments to demonstrate your assertions and learning how not to derogate those who clearly see the flaws in your weak argument. There is no reason to be derogatory when others want more than “there is a commonality of circle walking”.

It is interesting that you think there may be a connection between Sufism and Bagua. Your proof of this is that both perform circle walking. WOW!!! Let me change everything I have ever learned based upon this demonstration of proof! Who is the greater fool then, the one who cannot demonstrate any cohesive argument for his assertion or the one who chooses not to believe him?

You stated: My point is simple. I believe that Bagua may be a Muslim art, rather than a Taoist one. Or at least, an opportunistic hybrid of the two.

Then later you contradict your SIMPLE POINT by saying: I am not saying that Bagua as a martial art, was "invented" by Muslims. The hand formations or palms, exist in Taoist arts of Qigong and martial styles as well. But the principle of walking the circle as meditation or training, exists in both Taoist and Sufi traditions.

Well is it a Muslim art or not? How can it be a Muslim art and not a Muslim art at the same time? If the hand forms are Taoist and the circle walking is Muslim then perhaps it may be a hybrid, but hybrid is not Muslim.

There are a few problems here. One is that you were not clear about what you meant “in your own mind” from the start. Another is the off hand connection you make between “similar” movements. Similarity of movement or form does NOT demonstrate a historical connection between the movements or forms. The way Chinese walk and the way everyone else walks is similar. Did the act of walking originate in China and the transfer to everyone else on the planet? The most basic hand positions are OPEN and CLOSED. Did someone devise these two basic hand forms and then everyone else on the planet learned from this ONE origin?

You must provide more evidence than your “12 years of experience” and similarity of movement and form to prove your point! As I have previously stated, anyone who studies a subject will eventually discern inherent forms and principles that are applicable to that subject. These forms and principles are universal. That means that they may be apprehended by anyone who studies the subject, at any time, at any place, within any culture! It is just as likely then that the hand forms and circle walking were independently devised by the two traditions under discussion. But don’t consider my point at all because I am narrow-minded and all I know wouldn’t fill the eye of a gnat!!

BUT WAIT!!! We are not done with you yet! First you claim the connection of Bagua is Muslim through the Sufi tradition, then later we learn from your “12 years of wisdom” that Sufism in fact NOT Islamic: Sufi is not Islam or, in fact Moslem! To be in the world, but not of it. It is the way of presence, without dogma. Sufi lives within the "shell" of Islam. But it is at home in many places and times. The only "way" that has presented this training without dogma or religious taint, is Sufi.

No wonder no one accepts your assertions, you make statements and then contradict them later! But apparently WE are the ignorant ones here!! (… Are you a little phobic about Islam? Or simply narrow minded and ignorant.

You claim “12 years of study” in China with various arts and we do not accept your statements out of hand and because of this you have become derogatory in your language.

The fact that you're debating the whole "taoist" issue is laughable. What any of you know about Taoist Arts, would comfortably fit in the eye of a gnat. Are you a little phobic about Islam? Or simply narrow minded and ignorant.

If you make a claim then support it with a cohesive argument if you wish to be taken seriously. If you can't do so then don’t derogate those who observe the weakness of your proofs. By turning to derogatory statements you demonstrate the weakness of your argument, the weakness of your character, or both. Your assertions are fascinating, your proof is similarity of movement and form, your 12 years training in China with various arts, some of them Muslim, and discussions with some people considered Muslim masters. How does this demonstrate proof of your assertions? When others reasonably question your assertions you claim the problem lies with them. Well, the problem lies with you Bak Sing not everyone else. You made an interesting assertion. But so far that is all it is!

Bak Sing
09-12-2006, 03:21 PM
Hi,

Are you guys from the NW, paranoid and arrogant? I spent 12 years in China/Asia, I never said how long I have been training/studying. I have no agenda, no hidden rationale or motives. I am so glad that you turned your powerful intellect to discovering a paradox. GOOD FOR YOU! Keep your vast intellect busy, someday you may actually learn something more than nitpicking and minor league debating skills. Why would I possibly want to share anything with people like you and with your attitutes? A paradox is a teaching tool used in both Sufi (no such thing as "Sufism") and Tao. Reread everything I wrote, when you are capable of asking an intelligent question, I will respond. Until then, good luck! Thank You for "baby", at my age I take that as a compliment!

P.S. I really don't want anything from you!!!!!!:D : :D :D :D :D :eek: :eek: :eek: NOT MONEY, RESPECT or even your friendship! Thank You Again! Sorry I forgot the proof again, it's in my other pair of pants!

lunghushan
09-12-2006, 03:44 PM
Hi,

Are you guys from the NW, paranoid and arrogant?

No, even worse, from the NW via Manhattan. LOL

Whatever. Honestly I don't think there is anything you could possibly offer that would be of interest.

The only semi-interesting reference on this topic so far has been the reference to the "Black Dragon Bagua" by mickey.

Scott R. Brown
09-13-2006, 02:45 AM
Hi Bak Sing,

You are wasting your time continuing to make derisive comments. Your time would be better spent practicing forming cohesive arguments for your assertions! Why waste your time here if you intend to make an assertion without demonstrating it using articulate reason and then belittle your audience when they disagree with you? Your insults reveal to the reader your belief in your own superiority, but only prove your inability to make a reasonable point.

In short your comments imply: “You guys are all dumb and I am smart because I thought of something clever and you are too idiotic to realize how wonderful I am for thinking of it.” Well, your idea was interesting, but your inability to support it with anything of substance and your insistence on insulting your detractors makes your case more unsuccessful with each passing day!

If you trained in China for 12 years, but have trained in the MA for longer, then please correct my opinion by providing further information. That is what a discussion is for, to share points of view and clear up confusion.

You either have not learned much in the MA which resulted in a poorly supported assertion, or you need to practice sharing your thoughts more effectively, as revealed by your reduction of the conversation to insults and inability to provide valid reasons to support your assertion.

You are the one who referred to your “12 years” experience concerning the topic of discussion. That means you intended to use it as an authority for your assertion. Within the context of your statements it is reasonable to presume that is the limit of your experience. It is your responsibility to demonstrate your authority for your assertions, not the reader’s responsibility to ascertain them. If your statements are insufficient to make your point or demonstrate adequate authority it is your responsibility to clear up confusion and misunderstanding NOT the reader’s to read your mind. So far all you are doing is demonstrating your sense of superior insight by insulting those who disagree with you and making excuses for your flaws of reasoning by pretending you did it intentionally. Referencing the use of paradox to demonstrate a point is useful when communicating some specific religio-philosophical concepts, but useless when attempting to draw historical connections between phenomena. Nice try though! The attempt to keep from facing your errors is noted.

If you want to have blind followers then go start your own MA cult. If you want to have a reasoned discussion with others who share as much or more diversity of experience as you, then learn to accept disagreement with your point of view and practice sharing your ideas using more effective argument. Use reason instead of flights of fancy and stop insulting those who reveal the weakness or your argument. Its not the readers fault you cannot reason or express your thoughts effectively. Just as in the MA it should be viewed as a gift to have flaws revealed. It will provide you with the opportunity to improve your ability. On the other hand, insulting those who disagree with you by imagining superior wisdom and knowledge only makes you look foolish, especially when you misapply philosophical principles in a futile attempt to protect your bruised ego.

BTW I don't live in the NW. But once again, nice try attempting to avoid recognition of your own errors by resorting to insults!

Scott R. Brown
09-13-2006, 03:34 AM
Oh Yeah!! I almost forgot!!!


Sufism

Google:

Sufism reoriented = 1,420 hits
Sufism in Islam = 215,000 hits
Sufism history = 186,000 hits
Sufism definition = 76,200 hits
Sufism and Islam = 224,000 hits
Sufism in India = 109,000 hits
Sufism islam = 226,000 hits
Sufism rumi = 34,800 hits

Webster’s Dictionary: Sufism, noun

Encyclopedia Britannica:

Sufism

also spelled Sufiism mystical Islamic belief and practice in which Muslims seek to find the the truth of divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God. it consists of a variety of mystical paths that are designed to ascertain the nature of man and God and to facilitate the experience of the presence of divine love and wisdom in the world.

Islamic mysticism is called, tasawwuf (literally, “to dress in wool”) in Arabic, but it has been called Sufism in Western languages since the early 19th century. An abstract word, Sufism derives from the Arabic term of mystic, “sun”, which is in turn derived from “suf”, “wool,” plausibly a reference to the woolen garment of early Islamic ascetics. The Sufis are also generally as “the poor” fuqara, plural of the Arabic faqir, in Persian darvish, whence the English words fakir and dervish.

;)

lunghushan
09-13-2006, 11:14 AM
Anyways, my personal hypothesis is also that there is no such thing as China. That everybody from China is really an Eskimo.

I've never seen China. I've never been to China. So how do I know this is false? Even given all the video evidence, photo evidence, etc., that there really is a country called China, I have never seen it.

So if you expect me to believe that bagua is from Moslems, without even showing me a photo or a video of a form, or any evidence to back up your assertion, when I don't really have any hands on proof that China itself even exists, is kindof bogus.

:D

Bak Sing
09-15-2006, 03:44 PM
Sufi predates Islam. To be in the world, but not of it.

Sufi is not a doctrine or dogma, therefor it cannot be an "ism".

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. have all been "Sufi".

Why don't you guys like Eskimos?



:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

cjurakpt
09-15-2006, 08:32 PM
Tai Chi, Hsing-I or Bagua. They maybe based on principles, theories and symbolism from Taoism, but they are not Taoist.

forgive my ignorance and nitpicking, but if something is based on principles, theories and symbolism from Taoism, it would seem to me that by definition that makes it Taoist: I mean, what's left for it not to be? if I base my life view on the principles, theories and symbolism of a given philosophy, well, then, I think I am in fact practicing that philosophy; if a martial art is based on the principles, theories ans symbolism of a philosophy, etc.

anyway, I think in general the argument is worthless: nothing is pure - as soon as you pass something on to someone else, their whole range of experience is immediately dumped into the mix; meaning that, if you are study an art from a Muslim and study another art from a Taoist, whatever you practice is going to be influenced by both people, their philosophies, religions, etc.; then, when you pass it on to the next guy, you will do it in some amalgameted form of what you learned;

furthermore, who really cares? I mean, it's an interesting little historical exploration, and one can theorize all one likes, of course: to draw a parallel between sufi practice and taoist circle walking doesn't necessarilly link them directly - it points out commonalitites of form and function intrinsic to the human condition: circles and lines - we find them in nature, we find them in cultures in a myriad of different ways; I'm not saying it isn't possible, but certainly there would needs be some documentation to that effect: even still, it's not really reliable - look at the origin sotries of tai chi? a bunch of claptrap that can't be proven, and probably the reality is radically different than what most people say anyway...

Scott R. Brown
09-16-2006, 03:10 AM
Sufi predates Islam. To be in the world, but not of it.

Sufi is not a doctrine or dogma, therefor it cannot be an "ism".

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. have all been "Sufi".

Hi Bak Sing,

-ism:

1. An action, practice, or process; terrorism, favoritism
2. A state or condition of being; pauperism, parallelism
3. A characteristic behavior or quality; heroism, individualism
4. A distinctive usage or feature; malapropism, Latinism
5. A doctrine, theory, system or principle; expressionism, capitalism, Platonism, Sufism, Taoism

Sufism does not predate Islam. It is the principles applied by Sufis that predate Islam. All you have done is take universal principles and apply the term Sufi to them. It is these “principles” that are universal, not the “practice” of Sufism. It seems you may be trying to say: There are many roads, but only one path! There are many methods, but only one WAY (TAO)!

You surely have the opportunity to take commonly understood terms and redefine them according to your whims, but you must understand that the consequence is others will not understand your point very well. Arbitrarily re-defining terms without informing your audience provides no one benefit. It does not make you appear to have greater wisdom or special information others do not possess. It creates misunderstandings that need not occur.

Bak Sing
09-23-2006, 11:38 AM
Actually, I have done no such thing. In your attempt to put me in an intellectual "box", you have trapped yourself. Names are pointless terms you throw around to attempt to be "intellectual". Lacking any real practice, and being on the Web, you substitute reality with your sad arguments on semantics, etc. and your desire to be seen as "sage" or "wise". I permit you to continue to be deluded for as long as you like. Think of it as my gift to you. And do not confuse Tao and Sufi, as the same thing. They are alike.

Bak Sing
09-23-2006, 11:47 AM
p.s. You all need to develop listening skills.

it's what I said, not what you think you hear.

As far as Tao, did I say "pure"?

more than symbols, principles and theories, is a little thing called "REALITY".

if you can't understand, when did that become my problem?

I am not your teacher. (thank god)

BYE BYE

Scott R. Brown
09-23-2006, 01:53 PM
Hi Bak Sing,

I am sincerely sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Peer into the mirror of your own comments and you will see yourself. Also you might consider my subscript quote.

Try to relax a bit. :)