Taiji training with no push hands

[wudangmountain]

Hi all,

Question for all you taiji experts....


What are your feelings about taiji being taught without push hands training? The form and application of the forms are taught...so there is definitely a martial component...but no push hands. Am I missing out on an important principle in training?

[shizenjin]

In my opinion when it comes to Taiji, Qigong is the source, forms are the weapons and pushing hands is the practice.

If you want to use Taiji for its martial art then you need to practise it as a martial art.

Also, Beofre I got into pushing hands I didnt really know where to put my focus when doing forms.

[5Animals1Path]

Yeah, push hands is definetly the practice aspect. When I first started learning the form, I was always told how to move, and knew how I was told to move. After getting into the two handed pushing, I stopped knowing how I was told to move, and started to know how to move. It's a weird way to word it, but that's pretty much how I felt. It'll give you a measuring stick to put your form up against, and as your form gets better, the pushing gets better, and it all cycles through back and forth.

I'm not gonna say it's impossible to learn without the pushhands, but I'm fairly certain it'd take a martial genius, or someone who'd had a seriously extensive amount of work in a similar style to get the best learning possible.

[wiz cool c]

If you want to study Tai Chi as a martail art then you need push hands. If you want to study Tai Chi as a mind body exercise then maybe you don't need it. It's like doing cardio kick boxing for self defence. I have met Tai Chi guys who have done Tai Chi for ten years and never did free style push hands. I push with them and played around with them. I only had two years of Tai Chi training at the time. But I started doing free style push hands from the beginning. Going to open push hand groups. I even enterd a tournament before I was ready and tore up my knee. I had to do three months of physical therapy. After that one year later I competed again and won first place. If you want to use Tai Chi as a fighting art it is going to take hard work. Standing 40 minutes a day doing your forms over and over again. Pushing paterns and free style fixed step moving and restricted. No magic chi is going to make you able to defend yourself or fight against another trained fighter.

[Justaguy]

I've met people who's taiji is great and consider push hands a waste of time.
I've met people who's taiji is great and think push hands is important - but only one of many important training exercises.
I've met people who's taiji is great and think that you only need to practice push hands, saying that forms and qigong is a waste of time.

Find what works for you and go with it.

[lunghushan]

Hi all,

Question for all you taiji experts....


What are your feelings about taiji being taught without push hands training? The form and application of the forms are taught...so there is definitely a martial component...but no push hands. Am I missing out on an important principle in training?

You might actually have found a decent school. You can always practice push-hands somewhere else, but hardly any place teaches applications.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Push-hands is the bridge between theory/practice and knowledge/application..

Push-hands teaches us the appropriate links, contact, force, and structure for use in a more dynamic and random combat environment.. it would be difficult to teach someone to use "4 ounces to deflect 1,000 pounds" at combat speed.. push-hands is where we test and refine theory prior to applying it.. it's a bit like the internship for a doctor, i don't want my doctor to try jis first coronary by-pass on me.. he needs to have refined his technique under the supervision of a knowledgable and experienced doctor..

The subtle techniques and energies of Taiji are difficult to refine into the Art at the push-hands level.. i can't imagine how difficult it would be at combat speed.. Once we have developed proficiencies at push-hands it's easier to translate that experience into combat applications..

Be well...

[Justaguy]

How approachable is your teacher?

I know that some teachers are not at all interested in discussing the relative pro's and con's of different teaching styles beyond "My way is the best" but if he is willing to talk about it - it might be good to ask him why he doesn't teach push hands and if he thinks there's anything to be gained from it.

[charyuop]

In my little town it took me 3 years to find someone who could teach me Tai Chi. Finally last week I could abandon my Video teacher and go to a real teacher.
The teacher told me clearly that he cannot do Push Hands and he teaches in free of charge classes purely for health reasons. So I guess it is better than nothing :(
The teacher's master is a nice Chinese lady and she can do Push Hands, she is what people can consider a teacher of the real thing. Unfortunately my teacher told me she doesn't like to teach the martial art part of Tai Chi and in the past she was very picky to whom to teach it.
Who knows, maybe in a couple of years I might convince her to teach me hee hee.

[cjurakpt]

The teacher's master is a nice Chinese lady and she can do Push Hands, she is what people can consider a teacher of the real thing. Unfortunately my teacher told me she doesn't like to teach the martial art part of Tai Chi and in the past she was very picky to whom to teach it.
Who knows, maybe in a couple of years I might convince her to teach me hee hee.

don't be put off by what he tells you, just because she hasn't taught it to him; first off, I would ask him who she has actually taught it to, and maybe you can go play with them; also, why are you training with this guy if you know where is teacher is anyway? since he's not even charging, it's not like you're breaking his rice bowl by training directly with her instead of him; even if she doesn't teach you push hands (although, Chinese teachers are funny - what they might never even think about teaching to one person, they may open up to fully for another, just because it seems to be the right thing to do at the time - "when the student is ready, the teacher appears" - and all that), you are probably still going to get a better level of instruction in the form it self - and hanging around her for a while, yeah, she may decide to teach you to push: have you considered how to get "close" to her? I would start with house cleaning / yard work, with out any expectation of getting a thing...

the othjer answer is to simply find 2 or 3 like minded people in your area, go take a few push hands seminars somewhere, come home and practice together

[lunghushan]

Greetings..

Push-hands is the bridge between theory/practice and knowledge/application..

Push-hands teaches us the appropriate links, contact, force, and structure for use in a more dynamic and random combat environment.. it would be difficult to teach someone to use "4 ounces to deflect 1,000 pounds" at combat speed.. push-hands is where we test and refine theory prior to applying it.. it's a bit like the internship for a doctor, i don't want my doctor to try jis first coronary by-pass on me.. he needs to have refined his technique under the supervision of a knowledgable and experienced doctor..

The subtle techniques and energies of Taiji are difficult to refine into the Art at the push-hands level.. i can't imagine how difficult it would be at combat speed.. Once we have developed proficiencies at push-hands it's easier to translate that experience into combat applications..

Be well...

It seems like this kindof depends upon your definition of applications. Like a while back I got a video of the 13 form. It had this taiji form, and then the guy showed the 'applications', and they were all off of push hands. Every application was a push-hand type throw.

???

So I walked around asking people, about their taiji applications. One conversation went like this:

Sifu: "Taiji applications are all push-hands."
Me: "Then why does your form have a fist in it?"
Sifu: "There is no striking in taiji."
Me: "Then why does your form have a fist in it?"
Sifu: "Taiji applications are all push-hands."
Me; "Then why does your form have a fist in it? There must be striking if there if fist, right?"
Sifu: "The form is just an exercise. There are no striking techniques in taiji."

That's basically the B.S. you'll find most everywhere. So if you say that taiji applications are all push-hands, well, then I guess, maybe yes then you will have to have push-hands.

[Wood Dragon]

In my little town it took me 3 years to find someone who could teach me Tai Chi. Finally last week I could abandon my Video teacher and go to a real teacher.
The teacher told me clearly that he cannot do Push Hands and he teaches in free of charge classes purely for health reasons. So I guess it is better than nothing :(
The teacher's master is a nice Chinese lady and she can do Push Hands, she is what people can consider a teacher of the real thing. Unfortunately my teacher told me she doesn't like to teach the martial art part of Tai Chi and in the past she was very picky to whom to teach it.
Who knows, maybe in a couple of years I might convince her to teach me hee hee.


You might find it possible to attend a seminar, and at least pick up the basic elements of Push Hands.

[cjurakpt]

Sifu: "Taiji applications are all push-hands."

of course, that's not true: push hands is just one type of training exercise to develop hands on sensitivity at a certain range (trapping or pre-grappling); unfortunately, when it's all you know, it "becomes" the actual appliations, rather than a training tool...it's also a relatively safe training method to teach, so it's one that you can show to people who aren't serious fighters that they can do without killing themselves...


Me; "Then why does your form have a fist in it? There must be striking if there if fist, right?"
Sifu: "The form is just an exercise. There are no striking techniques in taiji."

that's also a load of BS - tai ji has plenty of striking - most of it is open hand / palm, but it has a few fist techs, as the form demonstrates (although they can also be interpreted as joint manips as well); also, the form is not "just" on exercise - it's another type of training method that is designed to get people to be aware of their own movement patterns, habiits and inefficicencies; it is not intended to be done slow for 100 years either if you want to fight with it - but again, if it's all you know or want to teach, then it becomes an end unto itself;

a lot of tai chi fighting stuff got "lost" because a) the teacher's didn't want to teach it as fighting, for whatever reason (for example, much easier to make a living teaching it as health pracice to lots of rich Mandarin nobles than it is to teach it as fighting to poor serfs; that is, the kind of people who might need you to SLOW THINGS DOWN so that they can get what you are doing and practice it in a way befitting their genteel status...); b) the teacher didn't know it, which, given a situation like in a) above, kinda makes sense;

my teacher has shown me some of the methods his teacher taught him to train fighting in tai chi - although it's unlike what you see in most tai chi schools, it isn't anything particularly esoteric and mystical, it's basically their version of the types of single and two-person training / conditioning stuff you see in a lot of different TCMA styles;

usually, the reason that things are the way they are, are for very simple, straighforward reasons that just get "forgotten" after a while...all you are left with are the BS justifications that fly in the face of common sense...

[lunghushan]

Well unfortunately it seems a lot of taiji teachers make up a lot of excuses to justify their existence.

Anyway, whatever. I've given up on looking for good CMA instructors. For some reason most instructors seem to not want to do very much in the way of applications -- instead they seem to want to argue for just wushu.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

lunghushan: I hope my post didn't leave you with the impression that Taiji has no punches, or.. that push-hands is the top of the game.. neither are true. Push-hands is the "bridge" to applications, it is the training that sensitizes us to the subtle energies and delicate balances that can be managed in an application format.. Once you have a depth of "skilled" pushing experience, opportunities for strikes and kicks are apparent.. but, much of the pushing i have seen was no more than crude wrestling with weird rules.. Good pushing illustrates how to manage the action, good striking and kicking brings the management to a conclusion. Though, it is my opinion that one seldom needs to take it to that level, more often than not, it goes to that level strictly as a preference..

If your Taiji teacher(s) are only demonstrating "clever wrestling" as push-hands, that is a superficial element.. there should be much time studying effective power cultivation, expression, and control.. FaJing training is a basic element of Taiji, it can be manifested in every aspect of the forms, but is most evident and easiest learned as a strike.. Taiji is a fighting art, that is its heritage.. systems that have removed that crucial element are more appropriately described a Tai Chi QiGong, not Taijiquan.. When someone says Taiji is for health, i ask them how healthy they would feel when they are hospitalized by an attacker when their Tai Chi QiGong failed to manage the conflict.. it's okay to present Tai Chi QiGong as a health exercise, but it is irresponsible to let students believe it will serve them as a self-defense.. but, to teach Taijiquan it is essential to teach it as a martial art first, and other benefits as by-products..

Be well..

[lunghushan]

Well there seem to be too few schools that teach taijiquan as a fighting art. After searching around a lot I basically gave up on it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well there seem to be too few schools that teach taijiquan as a fighting art. After searching around a lot I basically gave up on it.

I don't blame you, but then you ARE in Seattle after all!! It is not likely you woud find real Tai Chi there.

[lunghushan]

I don't blame you, but then you ARE in Seattle after all!! It is not likely you woud find real Tai Chi there.

Now why is that? Does everybody know something that I don't about this place?

I can't figure out what it is about this place. Even the Krav Maga is weak here.

[One Finger Zen]

My teacher always says that first get the hang of Lao Jia Yi Lu and learn good body mechanics, and only then can push hands be practiced properly, otherwise push hands with no real taiji foundation is pretty much a waste of time and teaches bad habits. This is for the real novice taiji player, some opinions may differ on this and say as soon as you start to learn taiji, you should start to learn push hands. But with Chen Style, a lot of the martial apps are pretty apparent to the eye that is sharp enough to see.Although I agree with the former statement.

The first year I learned taiji, I first learned Xin Jia and then Wang Hai Jun started to teach my teacher so the focus was shifted to 18 form and then after that, Lao Jia Yi Lu. By then I'd been learning 1.5/2 years.

Then, since I was no longer a total novice, my teacher introduced push hands to the class. I found that the movements were easily learnable (obviously hard to master :p ) and my body mechanics were pretty much spot on. Knees were bent nicely (knee not going over the toes), hands kept their 'peng' and I could slightly feel the energy of the other pusher. Body on one level, bai hui 'touching the sky'. Everything moved together as one unit. So, this is why I believe that it's best to learn tui shou after gaining basic training in taiji.

Peace and Love

OFZ :)

[kungfujunky]

where i learn tai chi from we started with the form...and chi kung postures. we work on that for about 6 months and then when you are ready you move up to push hand training. the martial aspect is there the entire time you are learning not only the form but the push hands as well.

my teacher breaks down each move from the form and then has us practice that move in the push hands..how to set it up how to feel it coming how to deflect the strike (or yield) it is a great way to learn tai chi and what it is supposed to be for.

if your teacher doesnt do push hands or wont then i would try to find someone else to show you..or check local papers because i have seen ads for push hands practice in parks around where i live ...although with no idea of how it works it would be a dificult thing to try to pick up from strangers

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hi all,

Question for all you taiji experts....


What are your feelings about taiji being taught without push hands training? The form and application of the forms are taught...so there is definitely a martial component...but no push hands. Am I missing out on an important principle in training?

I'm no expert and anyone on this site saying they are experts are one of the following

1) Dreaming
2) Lying and Dreaming

But yes, you are missing something.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

It seems like this kindof depends upon your definition of applications. Like a while back I got a video of the 13 form. It had this taiji form, and then the guy showed the 'applications', and they were all off of push hands. Every application was a push-hand type throw.

???

So I walked around asking people, about their taiji applications. One conversation went like this:

Sifu: "Taiji applications are all push-hands."
Me: "Then why does your form have a fist in it?"
Sifu: "There is no striking in taiji."
Me: "Then why does your form have a fist in it?"
Sifu: "Taiji applications are all push-hands."
Me; "Then why does your form have a fist in it? There must be striking if there if fist, right?"
Sifu: "The form is just an exercise. There are no striking techniques in taiji."

That's basically the B.S. you'll find most everywhere. So if you say that taiji applications are all push-hands, well, then I guess, maybe yes then you will have to have push-hands.

Sounds like someone studied some other chinese marital art and learned the forms for videos and now calls themselves a Tai Chi instructor. Just my opinion. :rolleyes:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Now why is that? Does everybody know something that I don't about this place?

I can't figure out what it is about this place. Even the Krav Maga is weak here.

It's that ****able weather you have there. Who would want to do an outdoor Tai Chi seminar in the rain and gloom.

Bill Cosby said it perfectly back in the late 60s. When the sun comes out, you guys think it's some evil spirit and run in fear. :D

[lunghushan]

It's that ****able weather you have there. Who would want to do an outdoor Tai Chi seminar in the rain and gloom.

Bill Cosby said it perfectly back in the late 60s. When the sun comes out, you guys think it's some evil spirit and run in fear. :D

The sun is evil. Messed up skin and skin cancer.

You can always tell who is from California up here because their skin is so bad.

[lunghushan]

Sounds like someone studied some other chinese marital art and learned the forms for videos and now calls themselves a Tai Chi instructor. Just my opinion. :rolleyes:

No, seems to be pretty typical from what you get from Chinese teachers from the PRC these days.

They could just admit they don't know what they're talking about, but then they'd lose face. They always have to be superior.

[charyuop]

Well, the teacher is not that bad even tho there are no push hands. He looks very closely to every detail and if necessary goes over and over to re explain them (hee hee, not to show off, but not necessary with me...I get at the first time :) ).

The other day the teacher's Master came by to test the old students, so I had the chance to talk to her. She teaches only to Conoco's employees (wonder why, maybe coz paied by the company), but she comes by once in a while to test students of her certified students.
When class was over I stopped her on the door and we talked a little. She is a very nice lady and even tho in her 50's I think she is also good looking. She said she teaches 8-24-48 forms, sword and after that Chen style. She knows also something called Tao Sword, but she doesn't teach it, she told me by Chinese tradition it is something she will teach only to 2 people.
So I asked if she teaches push hands and she told me she stopped teaching it 10 years ago beacuse almost everybody couldn't "feel" it. Then I asked her what she meant and she put her arm in front of my face and asked me to push against it. I have seen videos of push hands so I know how to position my wrist and started pushing on hers. She told me to push hard, but I was afraid of hurting her (I am much bigger than her) so I pushed gently. She told me "is that all you can do?" so I really pushe hard shifting the body weight, not with my arm. I told her I could push harder, but I would lose my balance and she answered me "that's the point". Then she pushed back and I tried to stop her and she told me to yield and not stop her. So we started a little bit of pushing and receiving trying to shifting my body from fron to back to receive her without losing my balance (even tho she didn't mention, coz it was not a teaching session, but barely just showing me). She was telling me about the balance and how to try to make her lose hers (I guess, I was more paying attention to her arm LOL) and to end it she moved differently with her last push entering inside of my center and pushing me away as if she did no effort at all.

Hey, but I was so excited I didn't sleep that night LOL it was my first and unfortunately last push hands.

Once I will have learnt the 8 and 24 form well I will go back to her and ask her again about teaching me push hands....who knows....

[ProSpo]

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[qiphlow]

While enjoying your Game and Exhibiting your Skills, do take care that 'you are safe'.

The best remidy I would like to suggest is use Protective Equipment of Top Quality. Presently prospoindia are the leaders. They have a 'No Match Equipment'. They are supplying the best of Boxing Gloves, Best Heavy Bags, Best Focus Pads, Best Kicking Shields, Best Leg Pads, Best Aerobic Gloves, Best Chest Protectors, Best Head Gears, Best Abdominal Guards, Best Shin Pads, Best Shin & Instep, Best Kick Boxing Shoes, Best Bag Gloves, Best Punching Gloves, Best Hand Wraps.

Infact if we say that they are Number One in Boxing, Martial Arts & Kickboxing.

visit them at: www.prospoindia.com

what's up with the advertising???
regarding taiji: i was told that if you want to be nice, no strikes, just push them away. you don't want to be nice, those pushes become strikes! there are both open hand and fist strikes in the yang taiji long form

[Nebuchadnezzar]

....Hey, but I was so excited I didn't sleep that night LOL it was my first and unfortunately last push hands.

Once I will have learnt the 8 and 24 form well I will go back to her and ask her again about teaching me push hands....who knows....

It's not your last until she emphatically says, "NO". If you can get the chance to prove to her that you're worth the effort to teach, take it! :eek:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

While enjoying your Game and Exhibiting your Skills, do take care that 'you are safe'.

The best remidy I would like to suggest is use Protective Equipment of Top Quality. Presently prospoindia are the leaders. They have a 'No Match Equipment'. They are supplying the best of Boxing Gloves, Best Heavy Bags, Best Focus Pads, Best Kicking Shields, Best Leg Pads, Best Aerobic Gloves, Best Chest Protectors, Best Head Gears, Best Abdominal Guards, Best Shin Pads, Best Shin & Instep, Best Kick Boxing Shoes, Best Bag Gloves, Best Punching Gloves, Best Hand Wraps.

Infact if we say that they are Number One in Boxing, Martial Arts & Kickboxing.

visit them at: www.prospoindia.com

Are there no rules against advertising here? Where are the moderators?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

No, seems to be pretty typical from what you get from Chinese teachers from the PRC these days.

They could just admit they don't know what they're talking about, but then they'd lose face. They always have to be superior.

Not so here in NYC. My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, "Traditional". My Sifu's Sifu was here for two months from the Peoples Republic of China (PRC), and he teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, "Traditional". :D

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm no expert and anyone on this site saying they are experts are one of the following

1) Dreaming
2) Lying and Dreaming

Since you are admittedly NO expert, you have no ability to determine who is or is not an expert.

Me thinks you are the dreamer and/or liar!!

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Since you are admittedly NO expert, you have no ability to determine who is or is not an expert.

Me thinks you are the dreamer and/or liar!!

I would appear that I've struck a nerve. Are you claiming to be an expert? :rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

Expertise is relative. My 15 year old son is an expert in mathematics compared to the mathematical ability of my 10 year old son, but my 15 year old son is still a novice in relation to a professor of mathematics. I propose with my comment that you are in no position to determine who is an expert and who is not. It is the presumption and hypocrisy of your statement I am commenting on.

To claim out of hand who is an expert and who is not presumes more than you are capable of knowing. You have made an absolute statement concerning a characteristic of other people whom you do not know. This presumption demonstrates ignorance. You cannot make a fair judgment concerning people you do not know and therefore your statement is at best a guess and therefore invalid or at worst intended to derogate others which brings your purpose for making the comment in the first place into question!

In more blunt terms, you do not know what you are talking about! You have no way of knowing whether anyone here is an expert or not! Your statement was either foolish, intended to insult others, or not thoughtfully considered before it was made. It is merely your opinion nothing more. So far your opinion here is worthless and your manner of expressing it is questionable! You are relatively new to this BB and your opinion carries less weight than others who have been here awhile and have established relationships with other posters. One must establish authority in order for their comments to have value to general readers. Opening your participation in this discussion by derogating others is not very wise. It starts the conversation with a negative tone and only establishes your derisive attitude towards the other posters here. Think of it as you have walked into someone else’s MA school where people you do not know train and stated that no one in the class is an expert and they are dreamers and liars. This is a social faux pa that indicates either ignorance of social etiquette or intent to insult others and cause discord without reasonable cause which demonstrates to others your own sense of self-importance.

Your statement presumes you know what constitutes an expert, yet you have made no effort to define one other than to attempt to insult those who you THINK consider themselves experts. This is presumptuous. To date I do not recall anyone here stating they consider themselves an expert and even it they did your ability to discern the truth of their assertion is doubtful at this point! From the manner in which you chose to make your comments it is more likely you are projecting your own personal issues and standards onto others and that you presume expertise yourself. Your statement implies, “You guys aren’t experts, but I am.” Since your expertise to distinguish between expert and novice has not been demonstrated and your statement seeks to derogate others your comments carry little value.

To distinguish between an expert and a novice requires some level of expertise to begin with. You have claimed that no one here is an expert. This indicates you presume to be the judge of what constitutes an expert. Since you presume to make this judgment it indicates you also presume some level of expertise to make this judgment. We are thus returned to your implication, “You guys aren’t experts, but I am!” If you now deny that you presume expertise, it demonstrates your opinion of what constitutes an expert to be meaningless and shows your ignorance. If you do presume to define for us what constitutes an expert you once again demonstrate to all your own sense of self-importance, this shows your arrogance. In both cases your comments have no value.

[cjurakpt]

Not so here in NYC. My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, "Traditional". My Sifu's Sifu was here for two months from the Peoples Republic of China (PRC), and he teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, "Traditional". :D

define "traditional"...

[Scott R. Brown]

Not so here in NYC. My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, "Traditional". My Sifu's Sifu was here for two months from the Peoples Republic of China (PRC), and he teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, "Traditional". :D


define "traditional"...

I agree! I might add who is the arbiter of …as it was meant to be taught…?

What we have here is another novice with delusions of what is right, correct, proper, traditional, meant to be!!! Well my Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu was a Shaolin monk. Actually, I think my Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu was too! And my daddy can beat up your daddy. Big deal!!

No one cares about your delusions of what is traditional or how anything is “meant” to be taught. You do not know what you are talking about. There never has been a traditional way of teaching. “Traditional” implies a fixed method universally held to by all teachers and students at some time in the past. This is not the case and it has never been the case. There may be some cultural tendencies, but China has about a 5,000 year history! Which moment in time are you going to force on us to represent your sense or your Sifu’s sense or your Sifu’s Sifu’s sense of what is “Traditional”? What gives you, your Sifu, or his Sifu the right to dictate to anyone else what are the “Traditional” or proper teaching methods? Further, who dictated that “Traditional” methods are of greater benefit than any other method? Old ways are not necessarily better ways! In fact, generally speaking, modern methods are more beneficial than archaic methods in nearly every field of endeavor. I would agree not all, but you certainly have not established yourself as an authority with the wisdom or knowledge to determine what is and what isn’t for everyone else!

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

Expertise is relative. My 15 year old son is an expert in mathematics compared to the mathematical ability of my 10 year old son, but my 15 year old son is still a novice in relation to a professor of mathematics. I propose with my comment that you are in no position to determine who is an expert and who is not. It is the presumption and hypocrisy of your statement I am commenting on.

To claim out of hand who is an expert and who is not presumes more than you are capable of knowing. You have made an absolute statement concerning a characteristic of other people whom you do not know. This presumption demonstrates ignorance. You cannot make a fair judgment concerning people you do not know and therefore your statement is at best a guess and therefore invalid or at worst intended to derogate others which brings your purpose for making the comment in the first place into question!

In more blunt terms, you do not know what you are talking about! You have no way of knowing whether anyone here is an expert or not! Your statement was either foolish, intended to insult others, or not thoughtfully considered before it was made. It is merely your opinion nothing more. So far your opinion here is worthless and your manner of expressing it is questionable! You are relatively new to this BB and your opinion carries less weight than others who have been here awhile and have established relationships with other posters. One must establish authority in order for their comments to have value to general readers. Opening your participation in this discussion by derogating others is not very wise. It starts the conversation with a negative tone and only establishes your derisive attitude towards the other posters here. Think of it as you have walked into someone else’s MA school where people you do not know train and stated that no one in the class is an expert and they are dreamers and liars. This is a social faux pa that indicates either ignorance of social etiquette or intent to insult others and cause discord without reasonable cause which demonstrates to others your own sense of self-importance.

Your statement presumes you know what constitutes an expert, yet you have made no effort to define one other than to attempt to insult those who you THINK consider themselves experts. This is presumptuous. To date I do not recall anyone here stating they consider themselves an expert and even it they did your ability to discern the truth of their assertion is doubtful at this point! From the manner in which you chose to make your comments it is more likely you are projecting your own personal issues and standards onto others and that you presume expertise yourself. Your statement implies, “You guys aren’t experts, but I am.” Since your expertise to distinguish between expert and novice has not been demonstrated and your statement seeks to derogate others your comments carry little value.

To distinguish between an expert and a novice requires some level of expertise to begin with. You have claimed that no one here is an expert. This indicates you presume to be the judge of what constitutes an expert. Since you presume to make this judgment it indicates you also presume some level of expertise to make this judgment. We are thus returned to your implication, “You guys aren’t experts, but I am!” If you now deny that you presume expertise, it demonstrates your opinion of what constitutes an expert to be meaningless and shows your ignorance. If you do presume to define for us what constitutes an expert you once again demonstrate to all your own sense of self-importance, this shows your arrogance. In both cases your comments have no value.

No, I haven't claimed any expertise. You however appear to be one who claims to be an expert of some sort.

If there are any here, please do say so. Does Chen Xiaowang post here? Does Yang Zhenguo post here? Sifu Yee of Hung Gar or Dan Inosanto post here? Does anyone on these levels post here?

Does your instructor post here?

I believe they are experts and those of us posting here are just students who someday hope to be experts. I myself will be satisfied with being proficiency.

Saying too much says alot (and you said alot). Your ego is bruised, get over it. 'Nuff said.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

define "traditional"...

To be specific, Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I agree! I might add who is the arbiter of …as it was meant to be taught…?

What we have here is another novice with delusions of what is right, correct, proper, traditional, meant to be!!! Well my Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu was a Shaolin monk. Actually, I think my Sifu’s Sifu’s Sifu was too! And my daddy can beat up your daddy. Big deal!!

No one cares about your delusions of what is traditional or how anything is “meant” to be taught. You do not know what you are talking about. There never has been a traditional way of teaching. “Traditional” implies a fixed method universally held to by all teachers and students at some time in the past. This is not the case and it has never been the case. There may be some cultural tendencies, but China has about a 5,000 year history! Which moment in time are you going to force on us to represent your sense or your Sifu’s sense or your Sifu’s Sifu’s sense of what is “Traditional”? What gives you, your Sifu, or his Sifu the right to dictate to anyone else what are the “Traditional” or proper teaching methods? Further, who dictated that “Traditional” methods are of greater benefit than any other method? Old ways are not necessarily better ways! In fact, generally speaking, modern methods are more beneficial than archaic methods in nearly every field of endeavor. I would agree not all, but you certainly have not established yourself as an authority with the wisdom or knowledge to determine what is and what isn’t for everyone else!

Again, you have too much to say, which in itself says alot.

I didn't say or imply anything that you mention in your long winded run on paragraph. I don't expect anyone here to conform to my view of things.

I've merely stated that I'm training traditionally. Specifically, Yang style through a sixth generation Yang stylist who's instructor was trained by Yang Zhenguo (younger brother of Yang Zhenduo). I said nothing about the superiority of one method of training as opposed to another.

If you want to take it as anything more than that, I can't and don't wish to stop you. Calling me a novice and delusional speaks volumes about you. Clearly, you believe you are an expert and now your ego has been bruised so you lash out at anyone who would dare say anything that threatens your world.

As I said before, get over it. 'Nuff Said.

[lunghushan]

Again, you have too much to say, which in itself says alot.

I didn't say or imply anything that you mention in your long winded run on paragraph. I don't expect anyone here to conform to my view of things.

I've merely stated that I'm training traditionally. Specifically, Yang style through a sixth generation Yang stylist who's instructor was trained by Yang Zhenguo (younger brother of Yang Zhenduo).

If you want to take it as anything more than that, I can't and don't wish to stop you. Calling me a novice and delusionally speaks volumes about you. 'Nuff Said.

Let me have a moment .... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yang family traditional ... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yang Jun teaches in my town ... traditional? I'm not just rolling here, but totally breaking my gut.

I guess if your definition of traditional is not teaching outside of the family except for very minor things, and teaching to a lot of out of shape people without martial arts applications practice, then ... that's traditional. ???

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Let me have a moment .... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yang family traditional ... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yang Jun teaches in my town ... traditional? I'm not just rolling here, but totally breaking my gut.

I guess if your definition of traditional is not teaching outside of the family except for very minor things, and teaching to a lot of out of shape people without martial arts applications practice, then ... that's traditional. ???

Don't know him, not thinking about knowing him, so it doesn't matter to me. If this is what he's doing there, that's his problem. Just means that he's not protecting the integrity of the family art. That's sad.

But, my instructor is not his student, nor of his grandfather, and he teaches the martial applications. The first thing he said was that this is a martial art first and for health just comes as you progress and practice.

For my edification, tell me more of what goes on there that you have seen yourself (if you care to that is).

[lunghushan]

Don't know him, not thinking about knowing him, so it doesn't matter to me. If this is what he's doing there, that's his problem. Just means that he's not protecting the integrity of the family art. That's sad.

But, my instructor is not his student, nor of his grandfather, and he teaches the martial applications. The first thing he said was that this is a martial art first and for health just comes as you progress and practice.

For my edification, tell me more of what goes on there that you have seen yourself (if you care to that is).

I thought you said you studied with his grandfather's brother. Anyway, evidently they do tell the students what some of the applications are, but they don't practice them.

From what I was able to gather by talking to Mike, who said he and his wife lead the classes while Yang Jun is gone, they do form, and some push-hands. No application practice at all. Most people have a hard time with just the form.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

LOL!! Nice try!! Your futile attempts at diverting the conversation away from your own inappropriate comments by resorting to the “Your Another” logical fallacy are duly noted. It won’t work!

You are not reading my comments very carefully or perhaps you are unskilled at understanding reasoned argument. You are the one who has rudely called participants here dreamers and liars while providing no evidence for your conclusion. Your attack is general to all the posters here; this is delusional arrogance. My comments are specific to you and address specific statements made by you; this is careful reasoning. You have made arbitrary statements that are your opinion only and are not based upon any discernable standard of measure. Mine use your own words as evidence drawing conclusions using reasoned argument!! Your comments provide no evidence therefore they have NO inherent value!! My comments may be disagreed with, but they are made using actual evidence this means they HAVE inherent value.

I am calling you a novice, a dreamer, delusional, and arrogant because you have presumed to impose your arbitrary standards upon those you do not know. You have no idea whether anyone here is an expert or not and you have no way of discerning who is and who is not. I have provided a reasoned argument to support my conclusion; you have provided nothing other than empty retorts. You have no established authority here; therefore your comments are worthless.

On there other hand, I have been well known on this BB for some years. I have some modicum of established authority on many of the topics with which I choose to participate. You have not established anything other than your ability to be rude! I have confidence the readers on this BB can distinguish between the value of your comments and the value of mine. That is not to imply that everyone agrees with my opinions. However, it is well known that I provide polite, reasoned argument for my opinions and I have a low tolerance for childish and rude behavior.

I am calling you to task because you are rude and for no other reason. For me this is not a discussion about Tai Chi principles, it is a discussion about your arrogant and rude behavior. If you think you can come into a discussion and call people you do not know liars and dreamers and dictate the way something is “supposed” to be taught without being challenged then you are delusional as well as rude and arrogant. You have the right to voice your opinions and I will defend your right to do so, but rude behavior requires a response and I have done so.

It is presumption based upon NO evidence that you have concluded I consider myself an expert. It is also irrelevant to the discussion. You have no way of discerning whether I am or not an expert, whether I consider myself an expert, and it I do consider myself an expert what field of study that might be. THAT IS THE POINT!!! You don’t know what you are talking about and when you are challenged based upon your own words you are unable to defend yourself even adequately. All you do is use more empty comments.

I have compared your comments to a person walking into someone else’s MA school and announcing that everyone there is a liar and/or a dreamer. You have not responded to this comparison. If you consider this form of behavior appropriate or justifiable then your arrogance is of a higher order than I had previously concluded. This type of behavior cannot go unchallenged. Individuals who behave in this manner have a tendency to continue behaving in such a boorish fashion until they learn the negative consequences are not worth the benefits received.

The authorities you have listed are experts TO YOU!!! You accept their expertise. I do not! To you they are experts, to me they are names of people that OTHER people CONSIDER experts. Just because an individual is not well known to the public does not negate any possibility of them being an expert and certainly your opinion of who is or isn’t an expert carries no value so far. Standards of expertise are arbitrarily determined and accepted by popular social agreement. Popular social agreement of who is considered an expert may satisfy your requirement, but it does not satisfy mine! You may accept your authorities and experts as you like, that does not make them authorities or experts to everyone. Only to YOU and others who agree with you!!!

Your statements do imply quite a bit about yourself whether you are able to admit it or not. To call others you do not know liars and dreamers is foolish and arrogant and I have explained why I have come to that conclusion. You have NOT claimed to “merely to be traditionally trained”. You cannot even seem to recall your own statements so I will be happy to remind you:


My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught…

I have already provided reasoned criticism of this comment; I see no need to repeat it at this time.

My comments have been based upon statements you have actually made that clearly demonstrate your ignorance and arrogance. I have provided reasoned argument to demonstrate how and why I have come to the conclusions I have. I have used your own comments as evidence. You have not answered my comments with reasoned rebuttal. So far you have demonstrated no ability to support any of your opinions with facts. You have no established authority. You have no apparent knowledge or concern for common courtesy or social etiquette. You are unable to perceive the clear arrogance of your own comments yet presume to project your arrogance onto others. This makes your opinions at the least questionable and at the most worthless.

Your attempts to divert taking responsibility for your erroneous and arrogant comments by suggesting any ego involvement on my part is unsubstantiated and a futile attempt at diversion. I have proposed a conclusion using the evidence of your own comments a conclusion that you have not responded too on the merit of the evidence I provided.

The fact you seem to be unable to respond to my conclusions based upon the merits of the evidence I have provided inclines one to believe the conclusions have merit!

[cjurakpt]

To be specific, Traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

what is "Traditional" Yang Style? Yang Lu Chan's form? if so, is it pre- or post-Beijing version? or one of his son's versions? or maybe Yang Cheng Fu's version (which was actually the first generation that they referred to it as Yang style - Yang Lu Chan refered to it as Wu Dang TCC)? or is it the contemporary PRC version which has become the standard?

I personally don't think that the term "traditional" can be applied to something that has changed pretty significantly over 5 or 6 generations...

as far as the training methods, do you guys do free sparring, including kicks, strikes and take-downs? because that's how YLC used it, "traditionally"; he also fought with a spear - do you do that?

[imperialtaichi]

...My Sifu teaches everything as it was meant to be taught, "Traditional". My Sifu's Sifu... teaches Tai Chi the way he was taught, "Traditional". :D



Brings back happy memory.... :)

When I met my training brother Sifu V. Leow twenty odd years ago, I thought he was such a good fighter that I don't need to learn from anyone else, because what he taught me was the ultimate and everything I need to know he could teach me.

Now when we talk about the old days we often laugh about how hopeless we were, all the silly methods we used, how little we knew and have a good laugh.

Nebuchadnezzar, do not assume that anyone can teach everything as it was meant to be taught. It is simply, not possible even from someone with the most honorable intention.

And a word on "Traditional":

In the old days, students were NOT allowed to ask questions. Even if you missed something or cannot comprehend something, it is disrespectful to ask the teacher a question. You are not allowed to make notes, nor write anything down. There were many other restrictions as well making passing on knowledge a very difficult practice. You DON'T want your teacher to teach you the "traditional" way. If you do get a chance to go to PRC to seek knowledge you will soon find out all these traditions.

IMHO, however, there is nothing wrong in describing your Yang TCC "traditional" as long as you specify it is under whose tradition; whether it is YJH, YBH, YCF etc but not claiming it was taught the same way as they taught by them.

Cheers,
John

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

LOL!! Nice try!! Your futile attempts at diverting the conversation away from your own inappropriate comments by resorting to the “Your Another” logical fallacy are duly noted. It won’t work!

You are not reading my comments very carefully or perhaps you are unskilled at understanding reasoned argument. You are the one who has rudely called participants here dreamers and liars while providing no evidence for your conclusion. Your attack is general to all the posters here; this is delusional arrogance. My comments are specific to you and address specific statements made by you; this is careful reasoning. You have made arbitrary statements that are your opinion only and are not based upon any discernable standard of measure. Mine use your own words as evidence drawing conclusions using reasoned argument!! Your comments provide no evidence therefore they have NO inherent value!! My comments may be disagreed with, but they are made using actual evidence this means they HAVE inherent value.

I am calling you a novice, a dreamer, delusional, and arrogant because you have presumed to impose your arbitrary standards upon those you do not know. You have no idea whether anyone here is an expert or not and you have no way of discerning who is and who is not. I have provided a reasoned argument to support my conclusion; you have provided nothing other than empty retorts. You have no established authority here; therefore your comments are worthless.

On there other hand, I have been well known on this BB for some years. I have some modicum of established authority on many of the topics with which I choose to participate. You have not established anything other than your ability to be rude! I have confidence the readers on this BB can distinguish between the value of your comments and the value of mine. That is not to imply that everyone agrees with my opinions. However, it is well known that I provide polite, reasoned argument for my opinions and I have a low tolerance for childish and rude behavior.

I am calling you to task because you are rude and for no other reason. For me this is not a discussion about Tai Chi principles, it is a discussion about your arrogant and rude behavior. If you think you can come into a discussion and call people you do not know liars and dreamers and dictate the way something is “supposed” to be taught without being challenged then you are delusional as well as rude and arrogant. You have the right to voice your opinions and I will defend your right to do so, but rude behavior requires a response and I have done so.

It is presumption based upon NO evidence that you have concluded I consider myself an expert. It is also irrelevant to the discussion. You have no way of discerning whether I am or not an expert, whether I consider myself an expert, and it I do consider myself an expert what field of study that might be. THAT IS THE POINT!!! You don’t know what you are talking about and when you are challenged based upon your own words you are unable to defend yourself even adequately. All you do is use more empty comments.

I have compared your comments to a person walking into someone else’s MA school and announcing that everyone there is a liar and/or a dreamer. You have not responded to this comparison. If you consider this form of behavior appropriate or justifiable then your arrogance is of a higher order than I had previously concluded. This type of behavior cannot go unchallenged. Individuals who behave in this manner have a tendency to continue behaving in such a boorish fashion until they learn the negative consequences are not worth the benefits received.

The authorities you have listed are experts TO YOU!!! You accept their expertise. I do not! To you they are experts, to me they are names of people that OTHER people CONSIDER experts. Just because an individual is not well known to the public does not negate any possibility of them being an expert and certainly your opinion of who is or isn’t an expert carries no value so far. Standards of expertise are arbitrarily determined and accepted by popular social agreement. Popular social agreement of who is considered an expert may satisfy your requirement, but it does not satisfy mine! You may accept your authorities and experts as you like, that does not make them authorities or experts to everyone. Only to YOU and others who agree with you!!!

Your statements do imply quite a bit about yourself whether you are able to admit it or not. To call others you do not know liars and dreamers is foolish and arrogant and I have explained why I have come to that conclusion. You have NOT claimed to “merely to be traditionally trained”. You cannot even seem to recall your own statements so I will be happy to remind you:



I have already provided reasoned criticism of this comment; I see no need to repeat it at this time.

My comments have been based upon statements you have actually made that clearly demonstrate your ignorance and arrogance. I have provided reasoned argument to demonstrate how and why I have come to the conclusions I have. I have used your own comments as evidence. You have not answered my comments with reasoned rebuttal. So far you have demonstrated no ability to support any of your opinions with facts. You have no established authority. You have no apparent knowledge or concern for common courtesy or social etiquette. You are unable to perceive the clear arrogance of your own comments yet presume to project your arrogance onto others. This makes your opinions at the least questionable and at the most worthless.

Your attempts to divert taking responsibility for your erroneous and arrogant comments by suggesting any ego involvement on my part is unsubstantiated and a futile attempt at diversion. I have proposed a conclusion using the evidence of your own comments a conclusion that you have not responded too on the merit of the evidence I provided.

The fact you seem to be unable to respond to my conclusions based upon the merits of the evidence I have provided inclines one to believe the conclusions have merit!

Oh well. To be brief, I haven't decided to argue with you. No one has stepped forward to claim expertise in anything other than you.

Without quoting you, your spouting off the claims of your years on this board and "I have authority.... " is a waste of the time of the others who frequent this site.

To spare them any more of your pontificating and attempts to find someone to bash at my expense, I won't be helping you to feed your bruised ego (get over it) any further.

:cool:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

what is "Traditional" Yang Style? Yang Lu Chan's form? if so, is it pre- or post-Beijing version? or one of his son's versions? or maybe Yang Cheng Fu's version (which was actually the first generation that they referred to it as Yang style - Yang Lu Chan refered to it as Wu Dang TCC)? or is it the contemporary PRC version which has become the standard?

I personally don't think that the term "traditional" can be applied to something that has changed pretty significantly over 5 or 6 generations...

as far as the training methods, do you guys do free sparring, including kicks, strikes and take-downs? because that's how YLC used it, "traditionally"; he also fought with a spear - do you do that?

Yang Cheng Fu. Push hands and applications at my level. Advanced students train weapons, etc.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Brings back happy memory.... :)

When I met my training brother Sifu V. Leow twenty odd years ago, I thought he was such a good fighter that I don't need to learn from anyone else, because what he taught me was the ultimate and everything I need to know he could teach me.

Now when we talk about the old days we often laugh about how hopeless we were, all the silly methods we used, how little we knew and have a good laugh.

Nebuchadnezzar, do not assume that anyone can teach everything as it was meant to be taught. It is simply, not possible even from someone with the most honorable intention.

And a word on "Traditional":

In the old days, students were NOT allowed to ask questions. Even if you missed something or cannot comprehend something, it is disrespectful to ask the teacher a question. You are not allowed to make notes, nor write anything down. There were many other restrictions as well making passing on knowledge a very difficult practice. You DON'T want your teacher to teach you the "traditional" way. If you do get a chance to go to PRC to seek knowledge you will soon find out all these traditions.

IMHO, however, there is nothing wrong in describing your Yang TCC "traditional" as long as you specify it is under whose tradition; whether it is YJH, YBH, YCF etc but not claiming it was taught the same way as they taught by them.

Cheers,
John


Thank you for the advice. It has been noted and will be taken as thoughtful advice. No one knows everything and I would be the last to claim I do. Again, thanks. :)

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I thought you said you studied with his grandfather's brother. Anyway, evidently they do tell the students what some of the applications are, but they don't practice them.

From what I was able to gather by talking to Mike, who said he and his wife lead the classes while Yang Jun is gone, they do form, and some push-hands. No application practice at all. Most people have a hard time with just the form.

Nope, I said, ".....Specifically, Yang style through a sixth generation Yang stylist who's instructor was trained by Yang Zhenguo (younger brother of Yang Zhenduo)."

I wish I could go to China for a while to train. Maybe I'll visit one day after the kids get older. Thanks for the information. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nebuchadnezzar,

It is wise for you to not participate in a conversation in which you cannot justify yourself by any other means than to project responsibility on to others. It would be proper for you to acknowledge the inappropriateness of your comments, but that appears unlikely to occur. You cannot justify your inappropriate comments and since you are unwilling to retract them or apologize for them I am willing to conclude our conversation for now.

I will leave you with one last thought:

Try taking the same comments you have made here and go tell them to your Sifu. Tell him he is a liar and a dreamer and see what kind of consequence you enjoy. Then tell his Sifu he is a liar and a dreamer. Then go to a meeting with some business associates and tell them they are all liars and dreamers. Then when you are done with that, go to your boss and tell him he is a liar and a dreamer. Go to your local Starbucks or favorite bar and tell everyone there they are all liars and dreamers. Have fun receiving similar consequences or worse than you have experienced here.

If you continue to make inappropriately comments and I am so inclined, I will be happy to respond to them once more.

[explosiveturtle]

hahaha I'm here to post my comments so i'm gonna try and not jump out of topic.:cool: and i must say this is the coolest cool smily.

1st of all, hand pushing is practice in many other styles not only in Wudangs training. It's one of the ways to practice domination and controling the whole game. The push hands that only limited your upper body movement isn't really a smart push hand. If you're a Taiji student then maybe you should have Bagua's footwork and Xin yi's forms while you do it. Taiji isn't very complete without the other two brother system. the 3 kind of make up for each other's weakness.

2nd of all, I don't know why most people keep thinking pushing hands is the main thing for Taiji... Taiji ultimately is a way of thinking. All the forms, footwork, strikes, breathing are developed movements to smoothen out the qi in the body. Taiji doesn't really care if you blow punches or strike palms, it's major thought behind is to bring things back to balance(or zero).

so, pushing hands will help you learn the whole system faster. Who ever is teaching you shouldn't just should you single move's. She/He should teach you the system and let you grow on it. :cool:

[imperialtaichi]

Taiji ultimately is a way of thinking.



Well said.

[charyuop]

Sometimes it gets tiring hearing people talking about Tai Chi the way they do.
Health...Mentality...Reaching balance with the insdie you...and more...
First of all it is not called Tai Chi, but Tai Chi Chuan (even tho I read this is a recent name, in the origin was not called like that). It is a fighting Art!!!
Who made Tai Chi Chuan, worked hard to find proper forms to be able to fight and defende himself against other Martial Arts.
People try to make of this art a myth because of the slow movements and the use of Chi. But in the old days training in Tai Chi Chuan was not aimed to nothing else but being able to fight. It was not uncommon that students ended up in blood or with a broken bone. Grandmaster Yang himself was said to have killed one student during a training session. A student before being accepted as Student had to prove to be worthy fighting against the Master.
I don't undertstand why when we talk about Shaolin kung fu, Hun Gar or even other internal Martial Arts we put as a main subject the fighting aspect of it, but when we come to Tai Chi Chuan it always comes down to a mystical way of seeing it.
Unfortunately my teachers don't do it, but yes, Push Hands, application and practice of fighting are very important in Tai Chi Chuan as they are for any other Martial Art.
Ask to a student of Shaolin kung fu if just practicing his forms with no sparring is enough to master his Martial Art or not.

(sorry had to vent it LOL).

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Sometimes it gets tiring hearing people talking about Tai Chi the way they do. Health...Mentality...Reaching balance with the insdie you...and more...Well, perhaps for most of us the martial aspect of Taijiquan is a given, speaking it is simply redundant.. the other aspects certainly contribute to its Martial prowess.. there a few of us that spar full-on with Taiji skills.. don't mistake the absense of your preferred "chatter" with the absense of a Martial foundation in Taiji..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi charyuop,

Think of Tai Chi as being a contraction of Tai Chi Chuan similar to Pat being a contraction of Patrick. It is shortened for convenience not due to a sense of disrespect or unfamiliarity with the complete term.

Not everyone trains for the same reasons. Many people do train for fitness and/or other perceived benefits and not specifically for the self-defense aspects. I have been training in the MA for over 30. I have had a total of one physical encounter and I probably would have succeeded in that even had I never had any special training. On the other hand, I have applied the principles of Tai Chi and Tao almost daily. I still train regularly including strikes, kicks, applications, etc. I do not train because I have fear or expect a need to use my skills. I train because it is a Way of life!

P.S. We all have things that irritate us. It is good to ventilate to those with understanding ears when we feel the need. Thank you for sharing your thoughts

[charyuop]

Sorry if I was not more clear on that point. I know Tai Chi is short for Tai Chi Chuan. With me pointing the whole I meant that too many people forget that Chuan is part of the name and Chuan is the word which specify that it is a martial art...take it as a poor form of sarcasm.
As I said my teachers don't train me for the fighting aspect of it and it is ok, for now it is fine with me to train for the health aspect of and learn the more I can hoping in a future to find another teacher. But even tho I don't train the the fighting part of it I don't beat about the bush saying I do an healthy exercise or a form of Tao meditation that will bring me to immortality (mind, I am not saying that here someone said that). I know what I do is a Martial Art and I learn it with the knowledge of it.

I guess what really makes me mad is the huge amount of people who treat Tai Chi a class D Martial Art compared to the class A kung fu, karate, TKD and so on.

[imperialtaichi]

...even tho I don't train the the fighting part of it I don't beat about the bush saying I do an healthy exercise or a form of Tao meditation that will bring me to immortality (mind, I am not saying that here someone said that). I know what I do is a Martial Art and I learn it with the knowledge of it.



Hello Charyuop,

For sure, IMOH Tai Chi is a fighting art first, and the health/spiritual benefits comes as a side effect of the training. But the way the power is generated is completely different from most arts (e.g. Shaolin), so do not be confused that the meditative side is an esoteric new age health exercise; it is for the sake of increasing fighting abilities with health benefits as a side dish.

Cheers,
John

[explosiveturtle]

:) true, TaiJi Quan is really teh correct way to say it. Quan means fist... Tai which is means extreme Ji means pole. Originally Taiji quan was called Yin Yan Quan. Then there was time when people call it Lian Ji Quan... which means "two extreme poles"
I guess people likes to shorten names for friendly typing.


Many daoist don't practice combat arts, but they do Taiji quan as exercises or meditating.

[extrajoseph]

Hello Charyuop,
For sure, IMOH Tai Chi is a fighting art first, and the health/spiritual benefits comes as a side effect of the training. But the way the power is generated is completely different from most arts (e.g. Shaolin)...
Cheers,
John


Here we go, one more round:

Internal v Eaternal
Taijiquan v Shaolinquan
Soft v Hard
Transcendantal v Physical
Mind v Body
Unity v Duality
Blah Blah I v Blah Blah II.

Another 7,000 years and another 7triliion Victor Leows.....

:D

[bodhitree]

train football with no scrimage

[imperialtaichi]

Here we go, one more round:

Internal v Eaternal
Taijiquan v Shaolinquan
Soft v Hard
Transcendantal v Physical
Mind v Body
Unity v Duality
Blah Blah I v Blah Blah II.

Another 7,000 years and another 7triliion Victor Leows.....

:D

Sorry EJ,

Bit lost here... and your point is???

Cheers,
John

[charyuop]

Hey imperialtaichi, your site is not working....I mean, nothing except the intro page. Is it yet to be finished?

[imperialtaichi]

Hey imperialtaichi, your site is not working....I mean, nothing except the intro page. Is it yet to be finished?



Hello Charyuop,

I think the system was temporarily down, but I think it's OK now.
Sorry, my Web-fu is pretty bad :o

Cheers,
John

[extrajoseph]

Sorry EJ,

Bit lost here... and your point is???

Cheers,
John

Dear John,

Never mind.

EJ