My first cage fight

[Ray Pina]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=C4JDdQezaJo

Well, I lost. But I learned some important lessons:

1) Don't rush. I was down and receiving knees, but I was able to absorb most of them. However, I lost because I forced changing the position when I should have stayed and let my man spend energy.

2) I need a corner. So I don't listen to the peanut gallery outside the cage telling me to "come on Ray," when I should stay relaxed. Amatuer mistake. See point #1

3) I felt like I matched up well with my opponant, especially standing (though he was very powerful and strong in the side mount) but seeing some pros playing in the red corner locker room, I realise if I truly want to compete at a high level, I have a long way to go and have to take it to another level yet again.

Have to think about this, because the amount of focus I put into training already taxed many of my relationships and responsibilities already. I'm sure in a week though I'll be ready for the challenge.

Just want to chill right now.

Not as disapointed as I was, because I kind of feel like I made a stupid mistake, gave up my queen (position) early in the game for no reason. Amatuer mistake.

Ray

[SevenStar]

Good job just for getting out there. I haven't checked out the vid yet, but I'll take a look later.

[MasterKiller]

You're looking pretty lean, Ray. Lost all the baby-fat you were carrying around last year.

Big props for getting in there and testing yourself!

I think if you spent a few months working your ground game with some ground specialists, you would have been able to get back on your feet from that side mount.

[Oso]

Good job.


umm, have you got a grappling coach?


ooops, yea, what MK said.

[Chief Fox]

Good job man. You're out there doing it. That's awesome.

Of course this is just me being ringside quarter back but it looked like there may have been a couple opportunities for a leg sweep in the clinch.

Nice job man.

[SevenStar]

Just looked at it - the main problem is your ground game. After he took you down, I didn't see any attempt to shrimp out and get him in your guard. You did turn twice, but you turned backward - you turned your back into him instead of away. I saw a couple of bridge and roll attempts, but what was needed was shrimping. I know you wanna be a pure kung fu stylist in mma, but you gotta get some grappling in, bro.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

props for not only getting out there but posting the vid even though you didnt win this one.

you didnt look bad at all, but i agree with the others that you might want to up your ground game a bit.

[edit] ... i dont mean that as an insult either. i also dont think anyone is saying that you've been ignoring ground work, just that you might want a little more mat time if you want to compete in that venue. then again nerves could be a factor for your first fight too .... i actually wonder if ill ever compete because i dont know if i have the nerves for it at all.

[Blacktiger]

Good on you for walking the walk and not just talking the talk :D

[Faruq]

The man with the balls of steel! This is the first time I've seen someone post their own fight. You walked the walk! ****, I'm impressed.

[wiz cool c]

You where beating him standing. Nice knee and some nice punches. I know it is always easier to say when your not in there but do you know the BJJ way of getting from under the side mount to the gaurd. Again I know when your wathching it is different then when your in there. I had a judo match that ended similar to that the guy had 12 years of wrestling and pinned me in the same manner. Striking look tough.

[lunghushan]

Well, props to getting up there, and more props for posting the video.

Obviously you need to work more on your clinch and ground skills. Body-blow ... body-blow ... LOL

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

not to take a **** thing away from ray, but shaolin had a fight posted here not too long ago too.

a few other people have stepped up in the past as well .... i still have some of them archived on my puter somewheres.

[mantis108]

I agreed with Seven Stars. I think it's great that you put your muscle where your mouth is. Winning or losing in this case isn't that big a deal.

Your opponent didn't seem too effective in killing your arm (the one near him). You would have a better change of shrimping out had you capitalized on that. I think his knees are more for distracting you (looks like he was working on a figure 4 lock [Americana?] on your other arm can't see well from the camera angle). I have to say I like couple of things that your opponent did. The trip takedown plus passing the guard into side position and his neck crank/choke were just beautifully done IMHO.

This is your first time and you face someone who is just a bit more experienced with the ground phase. It is his day that all. I think you are right that it would be great to have an experienced corner working for in this type of event. BTW, may I say that you are holding your hands a bit low for this type of event. If your opponent is a good boxer, it's not a good idea to carry your hands low unless of course you are too tire or you are way out of range IMHO. This is one thing that we Kung Fu people have to pay attention to.

Just some thoughts. Over all, it's great to see you in action. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[lunghushan]

Okay, so don't take this the wrong way.

What I thought was kindof sweet was the way that Ray tried to do his grab the head thing on the guy, and the guy got out of that and used the opportunity to shoot.

Okay, a sorry for not rooting for the home team, but that guy did a pretty good job there.

[Samurai Jack]

Right on, Ray. It's obvious that you've put a lot of time into this. I'm just guessing, but I'd venture that you'd have beat the hell out of most of us.

:eek:

[lunghushan]

Right on, Ray. It's obvious that you've put a lot of time into this. I'm just guessing, but I'd venture that you'd have beat the hell out of most of us.

:eek:

Yeah, backseat driving is easy. LOL

[hung-le]

Well done...consider it a win in the "thinking part of the game " and rack it up in the "I now have real experience dept" too.

[David Jamieson]

everyone who enters makes a good effort.
but you need someone to coach you on the ground stuff ray.

mind you, I can't stand that crap in any venue.

My view is that if you can't get a tap on the ground then you should be broken and start again.

too much time on the ground with little apparent actrion makes for dull viewing. mma needs to bump hip to that.

[Ray Pina]

I definitely need to work on my ground game, but believe it or not, I do have one. The mistake I made was getting away from my type of ground game (keep structure and wait for an opportunity) and pushed the action to an area I had no business going..... I also have no idea why I was rolling away from him when we first went down:confused: I don't understand what I was doing there, don't remember either. The last one, was I saw his arm and said, "fu(K it, let me see if I can do something with this." Obviously, I didn't.

I was surprised at how well he held onto side mount. Very powerful in side mount. He left no room. I know he trained MMA before starting with Coach Ross and that was his 3rd cage fight. But he felt strong on the ground. Got to give Coach Ross credit. His guys looked good and they were all there for each other. I wish I had that type of camaraderie.

As for hands down, that's my style. At a certain distance your hands aren't an issue, but your legs are. As I aproach, my hands come up, but I still like to leave them somewhat down to give you a target which I can intercept from below (most everyone I play with is taller).

Thanks for the feedback. Since I lost, I don't have to worry about a perfect amatuer record:) and am now much more relaxed. Win or lose, I'm going to use this new venue that has opened up as a training/testing ground.

Peace
Ray

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ray: You are consistent with the talk AND the walk.. Kudos.. In the side mount we try to force the opponent's move with knees/pressure to his side, too.. he will either move or pull his elbow down to protect his ribs.. you looked relaxed enough, good work there.. where was the venue?

OT: did Ernesto reward you with any surf? we got some 6-8' clean swells for a day, then it dropped to 4-6.. the jelly fish were everywhere, though :(

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

I heard the day of my fight it was huge, 15 feet+ but breaking nearly a mile out with a crazy rip. No one went out.

I paddled out Sunday, it was about 2 feet overhead with a crazy bump on it because of the west winds (I face south) but kind of fun. By Monday it was waist to chest, with the same bump but fun longboard waves.

Water's getting chilly. Had to wear the shorty. Sun's been MIA for days. Rain and Wind.

[MasterKiller]

The mistake I made was getting away from my type of ground game (keep structure and wait for an opportunity)

I'm not as experienced on the ground as guys like MerryP, so I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will pipe up.

In my experience, that type of game plan works if you are in the dominant position. But since you were in the inferior position, you should have worked to create space and made your own opportunities. Otherwise, the guy in control will just elbow/knee you and wait for you to mess up enough to submit you.

The analogy we use is to be a "paint mixer." You know that machine they mix paint colors with at the hardware store that shakes the bejesus out of the can? When you are on your back, you have to move move move and keep moving until you can escape. If he is constantly adjusting position to keep you down, he can't hit you. And if you have enough space to be moving, there is a good chance you'll escpape. At least that's how I've been trained.

[Ray Pina]

Yea, in hind sight, I should have pushed on his hips and worked a knee between us. But I remember him feeling realy tight against me. And my knee felt far away.

I remember thinking, I don't think he wants to stand with me but he isn't hurting me, so just let him keep spending energy. I should have stuck with that plan. I don't know what got inside of me to do what I did. It was more emotion than reason, pride. I should have just waited it out. I wasn't taking any damage.

At one point he was using his forearm to choke me. That was a problem I had to get rid of. Then I saw the arm. Thing was, I could make that mistake and recover against 85% of the guys I play with. I couldn't against him. He deserves the credit for capitalizing right away on what I gave him.

The overall lesson I learned is patience, keeping the big picture in scope. You don't have to win every battle, you want to win the war.

Also, no matter how sloppy some people looked in the cage, their overall level (evident by their pre-fight training) is miles above your average player. I spent some time talking to the folks at Pitt Pen. Some of them were pros. Good people. Great coach. One of their guys was supposed to fight the guy who broke my nose in Dec. He got hurt and couldn't fight. Turns out he was already fighting pro MMA on the day I faced him in amatuer San Da. That made me feel better, and made a whole lot of sense.

But anyway, these guys had awesome ground technique.

[PhilDunlap]

Ray

Fighting is way differnt than practice. I tell my guys half of what the do in training including conditioning will evaporate in the ring/cage. Watched the video and all in all it was a great first effort especially without any "real " rinside help.

A good corner can make a huge differnce as when you are in there things are much faster than they seem outside

[SevenStar]

The man with the balls of steel! This is the first time I've seen someone post their own fight. You walked the walk! ****, I'm impressed.

ST00 posted one of his fights a couple of months ago.

[MasterKiller]

ST00 posted one of his fights a couple of months ago.

Wrong. MK posted ST00's fight because St00 probably wasn't going to post it here.

[SevenStar]

I'm not as experienced on the ground as guys like MerryP, so I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will pipe up.

In my experience, that type of game plan works if you are in the dominant position. But since you were in the inferior position, you should have worked to create space and made your own opportunities. Otherwise, the guy in control will just elbow/knee you and wait for you to mess up enough to submit you.

The analogy we use is to be a "paint mixer." You know that machine they mix paint colors with at the hardware store that shakes the bejesus out of the can? When you are on your back, you have to move move move and keep moving until you can escape. If he is constantly adjusting position to keep you down, he can't hit you. And if you have enough space to be moving, there is a good chance you'll escpape. At least that's how I've been trained.

yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

this gives me something else to keep in mind when rolling ... as a noob i need all the help i can get.

[lkfmdc]

the guy who broke my nose in Dec. He got hurt and couldn't fight. Turns out he was already fighting pro MMA on the day I faced him in amatuer San Da.



That isn't true Ray. Cloud was an amateur with 0-0 record when he fought you. He then did a USKBA amateur Muay Thai card and went 1-1 in a 4 man tournament. He got his rib busted in that event in the first fight. He then turned pro and now has a pro record of 0-2.

[Ray Pina]

If that's the case, sorry. Just repeating what the guys at Pitt Pen were telling me. One of their fighters said he was already fighting pro MMA at that time. IS there a separation, where you can be a pro MMA and fight amatuer San Da?

Either way, he's pro now, a few months later. The best fighter I've ever faced. That guy had it all. He moved so well.

Anyway, congrats on your fighters win. He had a strong side mount.

[Nick Forrer]

Bad luck Ray:(

Well done for fighting though:cool:

Did you speak to your teacher about the loss? Did he have any feedback for you?

[IronFist]

Nice job, man.

Remember, you learn more from a loss than from a win.

[Ray Pina]

I'll see him tomorrow night and show him the video. I used to get upset with his feedback because who wants to hear what they did wrong when they had no sparring partners or cornerns, but I'm over it. I've settled to go to him for information, which is valuable. And then the testing is up to me.

I don't blame him, because he's well past retirment already. He's had his days. But what bothers me is he protects his disciples saying I shouldn't try to fight with them because they're too dangerous.

They've done no real fighting, and I feel the danger lies in a non-disciple with less years invested besting one of them. But I'm learning what I can and can not do, and their training is their training.

I'm actually considering moving to Puerto Rico for a while. And if that doesn't go through getting a van and driving cross country surfing and fishing. Just some time away.

[Faruq]

Why do you want to move to PR for kung fu? Does PR have a lot of benefits for kung fu practitioners?

[Ray Pina]

Remember, you learn more from a loss than from a win.

I can say from experience, that my technique usually jumps dramatically 5 to 6 months after a loss.

The last three years I've fought in the fall, lost, got humbled, trained all winter and then by summer got antsy again feeling confident.

My goal for this winter is to become more explosive. Any ideas on how to achieve this?

[bodhitree]

powerlifting, plyos, sprints

[Knifefighter]

But what bothers me is he protects his disciples saying I shouldn't try to fight with them because they're too dangerous.
Your loyalty is to be commended. However, IMO, he doesn't deserve it.

[Ray Pina]

Why do you want to move to PR for kung fu? Does PR have a lot of benefits for kung fu practitioners?

There's a good chance I can work and file stories from home. If that's the case, home can be anywhere.

Puerto Rico has really good waves and is much cheaper than NY. I can save money and surf all winter. I can maintain what I have, and the coast guard base, complete with a crew that trains BJJ, is right up the hill.

Instead of taking surf trips, I'll visit my master for a week or two around Thanksgiving, Christmas/New Years and things like that.

Just considering it. Feeling like a change is needed.

[SevenStar]

I gotta agree with knife on this one, man. If I want to fight, I wouldn't stay with a coach or teacher who didn't support my fighting or help me to train for the fight. staying with him means you basically need two schools - him to learn kung fu, and another school for fight prep.

[lunghushan]

Yeah it just doesn't seem like you're getting a fighting education, Ray, if that's what you're trying to do.

I mean, 3 fights, 3 losses. That should tell you something. That the other guys are better trained.

Why don't you find a good fight coach? Why not train with Coach Ross for example?

[Ray Pina]

I understand his position. There are two other students who are game for some more hands on drills, like work the clinch and stuff, but right now I'm the only one with any interest to go out, I'm the only one who's fighting.

The other students have been there much longer than me, have invested more time and money, and even live with him and help out around the house. So, I'm no one special to change things for.

Besides that, my master truly believes that one develops mechanics, structure, attributes, etc. and then goes out. I know in his eyes I'm not ready.

I always say I want to go test drive. He always says I have a Pinto, build the Ferreiri first, then go test drive.

So I understand that.

Where I differ is that I believe in learn a skill, train a skill, then test it in the classroom and make refinements under the tutelage of the instructor. That's how I train my guys.

Where I do fault my master is in his fear that when a disciple gets beat in class (and if they play with me they will be beat) it's a poor reflection on his technique. We all have to learn somewhere.

But like I said, I'm over it. It's their training. I've pulled so far ahead of their capabilities it's like I'm involved in a completely different activity. I don't say this boastfully, just mater of factly.

I'd love to be like the guys I saw from Pitt Penn, a bunch of fighters there supporting their guy who's day has come to step up. They all know that he could win or lose, hurt someone or be hurt. There's no ideas of unbeatable mastery. It just is what it is.

I'm building my students up to be this way for me and for each other. I can control that. MY master's school is my master's school and he aint going to change now.

My point is that it's a different world today. When I play with your average Kung Fu guy I'm unbeatable too. It's a whole other animal that I'm interested in bagging and putting on my wall.

I'll see what happens.... but yea, it can be frustrating.

[hjt]

I'd love to be like the guys I saw from Pitt Penn, a bunch of fighters there supporting their guy who's day has come to step up. They all know that he could win or lose, hurt someone or be hurt. There's no ideas of unbeatable mastery. It just is what it is.

.




most schools are like that. here is some advice look for a new teacher.

[Flying-Monkey]

I don't blame him, because he's well past retirment already. He's had his days. But what bothers me is he protects his disciples saying I shouldn't try to fight with them because they're too dangerous.

They've done no real fighting, and I feel the danger lies in a non-disciple with less years invested besting one of them. But I'm learning what I can and can not do, and their training is their training.


You are 100% correct. No one is too dangerous. Mike Tyson verus a 10 year old kid would be dangerous. However, as crazy as Mike is, he could control himself to beat the kid without hurting him too much. And that is a VERY one sided fight.

People on their high horses don't fight because they can't or can't fight well. I have seen this mainly in kung fu.

It is too dangerous because you might hurt your arm by punching the kung fu guy too much. And watch out for the iron face training.

[Ford Prefect]

Ray,

First of all, congrats on stepping up fighting in the cage. Honestly, I thought you'd never do it, so I'm happy to be proven wrong. It is a commendable thing to do, and although I've stepped into many rings and on a few mats, I've never done that. Credit where credit is due.

Secondly, I was curious as to if your feelings on the The Ultimate Fighter contestants have changed. Seeing as how these guys have all done well in amateur shows and many in professional shows, that should be a testament to their skill which you were doubting. Every single one of them would most likely destroy that guy you fought. Do you still think they are unskilled?

I'd also like to say that I think TCMA is in need of some Dog Brother-esque changes. A core group of guys testing actual CMA to the brink would be good for the community, imo. Since you are in such a large city, I'd imagine you could find some guys willing to go there with you. Like the dog brothers some ground work would be needed, but it would be interesting thing to see how CMA stand-up could go. One of my friends and I are interested in getting back into MA, but are going the traditional route this time. We are going to see where we can take it. PM me if you want to talk about it.

[SevenStar]

I understand his position. There are two other students who are game for some more hands on drills, like work the clinch and stuff, but right now I'm the only one with any interest to go out, I'm the only one who's fighting.

The other students have been there much longer than me, have invested more time and money, and even live with him and help out around the house. So, I'm no one special to change things for.

Besides that, my master truly believes that one develops mechanics, structure, attributes, etc. and then goes out. I know in his eyes I'm not ready.

I always say I want to go test drive. He always says I have a Pinto, build the Ferreiri first, then go test drive.

So I understand that.

Where I differ is that I believe in learn a skill, train a skill, then test it in the classroom and make refinements under the tutelage of the instructor. That's how I train my guys.

Where I do fault my master is in his fear that when a disciple gets beat in class (and if they play with me they will be beat) it's a poor reflection on his technique. We all have to learn somewhere.

But like I said, I'm over it. It's their training. I've pulled so far ahead of their capabilities it's like I'm involved in a completely different activity. I don't say this boastfully, just mater of factly.

I'd love to be like the guys I saw from Pitt Penn, a bunch of fighters there supporting their guy who's day has come to step up. They all know that he could win or lose, hurt someone or be hurt. There's no ideas of unbeatable mastery. It just is what it is.

I'm building my students up to be this way for me and for each other. I can control that. MY master's school is my master's school and he aint going to change now.

My point is that it's a different world today. When I play with your average Kung Fu guy I'm unbeatable too. It's a whole other animal that I'm interested in bagging and putting on my wall.

I'll see what happens.... but yea, it can be frustrating.

But at the same time, you are fighting - representing his style. From that perspective, you'd think he'd want to see you at 3-0, not 0-3. Or at least work your corner, if he has any fight / cornering experience. you can build your students up, but in the meantime, you are fighting NOW. they don't have the corner or fight experience to help you train or to give advice during your fights. you are setting yourself up to allow them to have great careers if they fight, but at the same time, sacrificing your own...

[Ray Pina]

First and foremost, I want to give credit where credit is do.... I would never think about entering a cage fight if it wasn't for the skills my master has shared with me. I'm a confident fighter. I feel I can protect myself.

The guy I lost to trains a gym that has produced champions... someone has to win, and in dealing with the reality, the guy who won has had more MMA experience both in that type of training and in fighting for the cage.

I took one baby step.

The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters.

I don't care about my record anymore. I'm going to go back in the cage again and again. If I have to lose 7 more in a row I will.... I just want to get better.

If I was 18 or even 25 I'd agree with you guys and jump ship. I'm 32! There's a sea of kids training MMA, BJJ, Thai Boxing, etc..... my only hope is a different way.

I'm honest in my success and failure. I'm also honest when I tell you my small, old teacher can kick my ass. He has something I want.

[Ray Pina]

First of all, congrats on stepping up fighting in the cage. Honestly, I thought you'd never do it.

Thanks I apreciate it. To be honest, I enjoyed the cage more than the ring. Looking back on San Da, that **** is nuts. It's just constant stand up fighting. Exhausting.

I like the cage


I was curious as to if your feelings on the The Ultimate Fighter contestants have changed. Seeing as how these guys have all done well in amateur shows and many in professional shows, that should be a testament to their skill which you were doubting. Every single one of them would most likely destroy that guy you fought. Do you still think they are unskilled?

My opinion varies from fighter to fighter. I've seen some of those guys realy improve. The black dude with the bright yellow hair, he's become more well rounded.

The one I'm most impressed with, respect the most as a skilled fighter, is Sanchez. He's fantastic.

But there remain guys that I saw on the show who haven't impressed me. Granted, being in the cage is completely different than being outside.

For example, I look at my fight and say, "Why did I not push off his hips and get my knee in there and create space.... face him, throw some material?"

I do it 3 times a week with my students. I do it when I go out to Throwdowns. It just didn't occur to me at the time.

Maybe I wanted to conserve energy. Maybe I was too busy making sure his knees didn't break my rib... everything but what I should have done.

So from that perspective, I understand better now. But at the same time, I can say what they did was wrong in the same way I say what I did was wrong.

Sometimes I guess I can speak out of turn. But I don't do it as a means of putting someone up or down, I do it as a means of making sense of all this to myself. And it also motivates me to go fight.

That was something I was thinking about today.... that the fight is almost besides the point. 90% of it is the focus in training and preparing and working yourself up to it.... getting in the cage was actually a relief.

[lunghushan]

"The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters."

That's the thing. You need a fight school. Otherwise it's like you're driving around the street and then trying to win at Formula-1.

[lunghushan]

"The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters."

That's the thing. You need a fight school. Otherwise it's like you're driving around the street and then trying to win at Formula-1.

I mean, the bottom line is it doesn't matter if you like what you're being taught. You're not being taught in an environment that will make you a great fighter.

So if you train with Coach Ross, for example, or Team Quest, or somebody like that, you will probably increase your chances of becoming a great fighter.

If you continue with your style, no matter how much you like it, you probably will never become a great fighter.

I brought this up before, the lack of serious partner training in CMA. In fact, I've given up on any serious partner training.

So you decide, do you want to win, possibly with slightly different techniques, or do you want to keep your techniques and lose.

Or maybe there's a third option, but I don't know what it is. Because you're only getting older. That's teachers like yours game. They teach you stuff, say you have to spend years and years getting it right, so you spend years and years, and then at the end you're too old to do anything but teach.

Sorry to say it, but that's their game. It sounds like you are at the wrong school if you're wanting to be a fighter. Teachers like that excel at wasting your time.

[Faruq]

Puerto Rico has really good waves and is much cheaper than NY. I can save money and surf all winter. I can maintain what I have, and the coast guard base, complete with a crew that trains BJJ, is right up the hill.


Yeah, I heard PR was a lot cheaper. A buddy at work was telling me to check out Utuado if I wanted to go, because he has family there, and I could stay with them. The lucky son of a gun went last month and came back with a tan and a smile from ear to ear. It's supposed to be beautiful out there, and the level of pro boxers out there is world class, though I haven't heard anything about gong fu out there except for the Wei Hung student that was in the Warrior Within (something Cambrelen I think). Plus, I don't know if I could get all the herbs I wanted out there without a hassle. Which pueblos even have Chinatowns there?

[SevenStar]

First and foremost, I want to give credit where credit is do.... I would never think about entering a cage fight if it wasn't for the skills my master has shared with me. I'm a confident fighter. I feel I can protect myself.

I don't question your teacher and what he's taught you. What I question is this:


The guy I lost to trains a gym that has produced champions... someone has to win, and in dealing with the reality, the guy who won has had more MMA experience both in that type of training and in fighting for the cage.

I took one baby step.

The material I'm being taught is not the issue. It is sound. The problem I face is that I only get to test fire it in real fights. I have never lost a Throwdown but I have never won in the ring or cage..... the difference: one brings hobbyists, the others committed, conditioned fighters.

you are not in an mma atmosphere, have no real coaching, no cornering, but yet you are trying to compete with guys who do. What I question is not what he's teaching you, but what he CAN'T teach you - where will you get these things? By your own admission, these guys are training for mma and have more experience in it than you. This means that you are already behind the curve and will only fall even further behind. this is why I say I would find a second coach. Sure, stay with mr. chan, but at the same time, I'd find an mma coach. Just my thought on it.


I don't care about my record anymore. I'm going to go back in the cage again and again. If I have to lose 7 more in a row I will.... I just want to get better.

which is commendable, but at the same time, nobody can be happy losing all of the time. you want to test yourself and see that what you have been doing paid off. It made you the victor on that day.


If I was 18 or even 25 I'd agree with you guys and jump ship. I'm 32! There's a sea of kids training MMA, BJJ, Thai Boxing, etc..... my only hope is a different way.

man, the bjj teachers at my school the black belt and the browns are all in their 30's. One is 39 and has place in the top 3 in EVERY national level competitionhe's entered for like the past 5 years. He beats kids all the time. Merry is 30, I'm 28, ST and MK are up there somewhere... 30 doesn't signify the end of the road. Like I said, I'm not saying jump ship. I would just supplement with a fight coach.

[Ralphie]

Ray,
The problem you have on the ground is experiential and technical. The guy held you in side control because you had no guard to pass, and you laid flat on your back. I doubt it was just that he had a great side control, as much as it was you are not very experienced on the ground. Just getting in real mat time with a grappling coach would teach you to get up on your hip and perform a proper escape without hesitating or doing something that an amatuer would do like lay flat on your back.

I'm 36 and started BJJ when I was 32. Learning ground skills at your age will only benefit you.

[Faruq]

Yeah Ray, it sounds like how good your teacher is, is immaterial to the issue of cage fights. It doesn't sound like he's interested in cage fights, probably because you don't generally get in them on the way to and from work on a daily basis. You like the challenge of cage fights, and go out of your way to enter them, so for that part of your martial interest you need to spend some of your weekly training time with MMA guys. Once again, that has nothing to do with your teacher's knowledge, but rather with the fact that you're interested in cage fights in addition to learning your teacher's art.

[Knifefighter]

I'm honest in my success and failure. I'm also honest when I tell you my small, old teacher can kick my ass. He has something I want.
Have you ever gone head to head, 100% against your instructor? My bet is that you haven't (or at least not in quite a long time) and that if you did you would destroy him at your current level.

[omarthefish]

But at the same time, you are fighting - representing his style. From that perspective, you'd think he'd want to see you at 3-0, not 0-3. Or at least work your corner, if he has any fight / cornering experience.

From what I can tell so far, Ray is not "representing his style"...or at least not his teacher. That's actually one of the main things that defines a "disciple" in this context. Ray made mention of his disciples and the fact that he is not one of them. That means that the teacher does not consider Ray to be his rep and Ray can not be said to be an official representative of anything but himself. There's a whole mountain of unknowns here but it's entirely possible that Ray's independance and his insistance on getting out there and getting experience against the teachers advice is one reason why he has not been chosen for discipleship. Every teachers thought process is different and they all have their own standards but this is a common one. Disciples reflect directly on their teacher regardless of wether they are acting with or without the teachers appoval. It really is like a family relationship that way. When a kid does well, the parent is proud. When he gets into trouble it tends to reflect on the parent even if the kid acted against the parents wishes.




....you can build your students up, but in the meantime, you are fighting NOW. they don't have the corner or fight experience to help you train or to give advice during your fights. you are setting yourself up to allow them to have great careers if they fight, but at the same time, sacrificing your own...

Which may be a perfectly worthy sacrifice. Ray may turn out to be a far better coach than fighter. We all know coach Ross is. ;)

[MasterKiller]

man, the bjj teachers at my school the black belt and the browns are all in their 30's. One is 39 and has place in the top 3 in EVERY national level competitionhe's entered for like the past 5 years. He beats kids all the time. Merry is 30, I'm 28, ST and MK are up there somewhere... 30 doesn't signify the end of the road. Like I said, I'm not saying jump ship. I would just supplement with a fight coach.

I'll be 34 in December. I'm 5'11 168 lbs. But after 18 months of solid MMA training I can tap younger, stronger, bigger people pretty regularly, as long as they aren't significantly better. Conversely, of course, I regularly get tapped by smaller people with more experience.

I also tapped 2 high school wrestling coaches. In Oklahoma, wrestling is big-time, so they were no slouches.

And the thing is, I'm not really that serious about the training. I don't plan on ever stepping into the cage, so I have to begrudgingly admit I don't train as hard as some of my partners. I do all the drills, and I don't ever quit in class, but I also don't always push myself that hard, either.

If I had Ray's mentality and drive to fight, I'd probably be pushing myself to be significantly better than I am, which is scary, because I dominate just about all the traditionalists I spar with now (stand-up, clinch, and on the ground).

Also, my long fist style is pretty complimentary to MMA striking method. Footwork isn't siginificantly different, striking and blocking aren't siginificantly different, so I didn't have to adjust much in that regard when I started training. Slipping punches was a completely new concept, but otherwise...

[bodhitree]

I found the opposite with my transition from traditional to sports

I thought everything was different, footwork, stance, punches, kicks, everything. I always had a little bit of boxing in my toolbox, but everythingis different. I do think some traditional arts have a lot of value for fighting, but not necessarily for sports.

[Ray Pina]

The fights are the same, it's just the environment (care/ring) and quality of the person figthing that is different. Punches still come in the same lines, just faster and with more intention. The kicks are still rounded and looking for your thigh, just heavier.

The ground, I was surprised at how tight he held his side mount, but I've been there --- don't want to say thousands -- but definitely hundreds (350 upwards) times before. I will make it in the thousands before next summer though.

I view it like surfing. I know how to surf. I now how to paddle out, duck waves, turn, catch one, make the drop and go. I know hot to get barreled... I even know hot to get air.

The thing is, some waves are more gnarley than others. They might look perfect from the beach, but you get out there and they're thick and throwing over a nasty reef and are inverted concave.... you don't just paddle out and dominate a wave like this. It usually take two to three week long surf trips just to start feeling comfortable.

My training makes me feel comfortable with strikes, kicks, grabs, throws and ground. Obviously room to improve. The game aspect, I'm just going to learn that on my own. There's no one else with you in there anyway.

I know I'm stubborn, but I'm on a mission. The world doesn't need another BJJ/Thai Boxer.... but it would be cool if I could do to guys in the cage what my master does to me. In reality, I'll only have been with him 5 years in February. Little by little.


As for age, obviously I don't think I'm old. I'm actually in the best shape of my life. I just don't think it's a good time to take up Thai Boxing. There's so many people doing it already at such a high level, how do you compete with them at their own game when you're starting at 32 and at 23 they've already put in 8 to 10 years?

I'm sure I could join a local gym, and with my background pick it up quick and start kicking guys around, but I'm talking about performing at the highest level available.

Tapping a coach and tapping an Abu Dabi champ or two different universes. Personally, I believe we set our own limits -- and anything is possible -- but at 32, I'd rather tighten up what I got instead of branching off everywhere.

If I got KOed by a hook I wouldn't run to Gleasons boxing gym. If I got KOd by a cresent kick I wouldn't run to the local Tae Kwon Do school.

Likewise, I gave up my head. My arm wasn't torn from me... I wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle locked.... I rolled over for a terrible attempt and gave up structure. Amatuer mistake in an amatuer venue.

I'm not freaking out. I'm actually exited. My stand up did it's job and I was alright until I ****ed up. That's an improvement from someone kicking me around and busting me up.

I feel good. I'm actually going to see if I can get a rematch. I thought I matched up well with that guy.

[hjt]

i made the transition from kung fu to MMA, actually my sifu did muay thai before he did kung fu and trained us in muay thai also, now i m doing grappling and MMA with a different instructor because i want to learn more and i know staying in one place may help me for now, but not in the long run.

good dude, it seems like youre in denial , not trying to knock you, but you want to do MMA with your style, youre not doing much, by losing. youre just proving the non believers right, saying that CMA is not effective at all.

i think what some people are trying to say is, if youre going to continue to do MMA, you need to find a school with a good ground and stand up game, learning on your own, friends, and your teach who probably has a limited ground game, you will not achieve what you want.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

First and foremost, big props to you for stepping in to the cage and competing. You have one up on many of us on the sidelines who should do this as well. That being said, my biggest concern is your master and his approach to your fights. I know that respect and admiration are two qualities that sometimes negate the truth, the truth being that you should probably find another place to train because he is not supporting you and seems to fear you sparring one of his disciples because he knows you will show them up. Ask yourself this, Ray, do you really think your instructor could best you or is it a respect issue. It angers me to see an instructor's ego get in the way of someone taking their art to the next level. I am not trying to judge your master, but IMO you need to train elsewhere and find a training group full of fighters, not disciples falling to their knees at the slightest hint of their master's displeasure.(Yes, if anyone caught that, it was from The Last Dragon. When I say who's the master, you say, Shoo-nufff!

[splinter]

Ray, I don't think anyone's saying that you should go out and take up thai boxing, or BJJ.

What they're saying is that you should go and train with some good COMPETITIVE thai boxers, and grapplers. Play your game, but against people who are trying to play at the same level as you.

If nobody that you train with has similar goals to your own, you simply aren't going to get the best training.

I mean, if you think about it, you're saying that that guy had REALLY good side control, right? So, maybe you should go train with HIM or someone like him, and try to get out of that position again.

If you don't train with people who challenge you, it's really tough to get any better.

[SevenStar]

The fights are the same, it's just the environment (care/ring) and quality of the person figthing that is different. Punches still come in the same lines, just faster and with more intention. The kicks are still rounded and looking for your thigh, just heavier.

bingo - the quality of the people fighting. this is where a trainer comes in handy. whatever it is that you aren't doing right, he should be able to help with.



My training makes me feel comfortable with strikes, kicks, grabs, throws and ground. Obviously room to improve. The game aspect, I'm just going to learn that on my own. There's no one else with you in there anyway.

no argument there. however, there is a difference between being comfortable somewhere and being effective somewhere.


I know I'm stubborn, but I'm on a mission. The world doesn't need another BJJ/Thai Boxer.... but it would be cool if I could do to guys in the cage what my master does to me. In reality, I'll only have been with him 5 years in February. Little by little.

which is fine. We're not suggesting you take up MT. We are suggesting you get a fight coach and work you grappling. I really like what you're trying to do, but your stubborness is preventing you from doing it the right way.



As for age, obviously I don't think I'm old. I'm actually in the best shape of my life. I just don't think it's a good time to take up Thai Boxing. There's so many people doing it already at such a high level, how do you compete with them at their own game when you're starting at 32 and at 23 they've already put in 8 to 10 years?

time doesn't necessarily equate to high skill level. Regardless of that, we aren't suggesting you take up thai boxing.



I'm sure I could join a local gym, and with my background pick it up quick and start kicking guys around, but I'm talking about performing at the highest level available.

it's all a process. Are you competing at the highest level now? No. right now, you would get destroyed at the highest level, as would all of us. But you work your way up to it. Get some Ws as a journeyman and work your way up. That's the only way. Take cloud. he beat you, had a few other fights, now he's turned pro. it's a process.


Tapping a coach and tapping an Abu Dabi champ or two different universes. Personally, I believe we set our own limits -- and anything is possible -- but at 32, I'd rather tighten up what I got instead of branching off everywhere.

you can't tighten what you don't have though, and you really don't have a ground game. The only branching we're suggesting you do is work your ground game. getting a fight coach is for your own benefit. Having been in a ring / cage, he can tell you what you are and aren't doing wrong, openings he's noticed, etc. - just the same as your cornerman would, and you now acknowledge that you want one of those.



If I got KOed by a hook I wouldn't run to Gleasons boxing gym. If I got KOd by a cresent kick I wouldn't run to the local Tae Kwon Do school.

No, you wouldn't. BUT, if you were a pure grappler and were getting beat by striking, common sense tells you to work on your stiking game. same thing here. you need to develop your ground game.


Likewise, I gave up my head. My arm wasn't torn from me... I wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle locked.... I rolled over for a terrible attempt and gave up structure. Amatuer mistake in an amatuer venue.

bingo. But the lack of a proper escape attempt from side mount was a complete novice mistake. this is why ground work would come in handy. you rolled over for the terrible attempt twice. that's part of the novice mistake. you didn't plant your feet, and you turned backward. that's what's telling us all that you need ground work.


I'm not freaking out. I'm actually exited. My stand up did it's job and I was alright until I ****ed up. That's an improvement from someone kicking me around and busting me up.

I feel good. I'm actually going to see if I can get a rematch. I thought I matched up well with that guy.

and that is a great thing. I respect that. But at the same time, looking at it realistically, without working your grappling, the result will be the same. Even if you striking is better, can you stop all of his takedowns and stay off the ground? if not, you need some grappling.

[lunghushan]

See ... Ray wants to take what he has, and practice in an MMA venue against good fighters. Keep the same style, but get higher level partner work.

Exactly what I posted a while back, but everybody jumped on me.

Anyway let us know what you find, Ray, if you manage to accomplish that. I think it might be a lost cause, though, given people's attitudes.

There doesn't seem to be CMA MMA .... there's BJJ/kickboxing MMA, but there doesn't seem to be any CMA MMA.

[MasterKiller]

See ... Ray wants to take what he has, and practice in an MMA venue against good fighters. Keep the same style, but get higher level partner work.

Exactly what I posted a while back, but everybody jumped on me.

And everyone is telling Ray the same thing they told you--Find an MMA gym and train with them. Your insistence that you do not want to learn a "different style" and obtuseness about trying to correct other people in someone else's gym are what got you blackballed.

I'm a Long Fist fighter. I left my kung fu school and went to an MMA gym. When I fight, I use my long fist techniques. But I was also smart enough to keep my mouth shut and pick up what works for them as well, especially concerning the ground game.

[lunghushan]

And everyone is telling Ray the same thing they told you--Find an MMA gym and train with them. Your insistence that you do not want to learn a "different style" and obtuseness about trying to correct other people in someone else's gym are what got you blackballed.

I'm a Long Fist fighter. I left my kung fu school and went to an MMA gym. When I fight, I use my long fist techniques. But I was also smart enough to keep my mouth shut and pick up what works for them as well, especially concerning the ground game.

Find an MMA gym. About all you will be able to do is long fist. If you do anything else they will look at you very strangely.

The bottom line is CMA is not boxing/kickboxing/BJJ. And I never went to an MMA gym and corrected them. Obviously you people can't read very well.

[Knifefighter]

I know I'm stubborn, but I'm on a mission. The world doesn't need another BJJ/Thai Boxer.... but it would be cool if I could do to guys in the cage what my master does to me. In reality, I'll only have been with him 5 years in February. Little by little.
You've spent five years training with this guy, yet you can't even hang a full round with amateur MMA fighters. Your persistence is admirable, but I think the point has been proven. Five years with someone who really knows what they are doing and you would at least be able to hang more than 1:54 in an amateur venue.



I'm not freaking out. I'm actually exited. My stand up did it's job and I was alright until I ****ed up. That's an improvement from someone kicking me around and busting me up.
Your standup sets you up to get easily taken down and was taken advantage of by your opponent. This structural weakness has shown itself in every clip you have shown.


The ground, I was surprised at how tight he held his side mount,
The fact that you thought this just shows how much trouble you are in when you are on the ground.
That particular side control with both arms on the far side is just about the easiest of all side controls to escape.



I wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle lockedLikewise, I gave up my head. My arm wasn't torn from me...
Actually, you gave your arm also. He just took your neck instead of your arm.



II wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle lockedI wasn't put in a triangle choke or ankle locked
That's because you would have to have had better position than you had for either of those to occur.

[Ford Prefect]

I figured I would lend my voice to those calling for you to find a trainer. Luckily Xing Yi is very similar to boxing, so you don't even need to let them know you're a traditional guy if you don't want. They'll just think you have a funky boxing style.

It really is the only way to get to where you want. You won't get there fighting the guys in your throwdowns, which is now readily apparent. You also won't get there training with guys who don't fight and don't know the fight game. You don't need to stop training or using your style. Just have a coach help you blend it in with skills that are more condusive to the fight game.

What was it, TUF1 that you first started in on all this on the board? Imagine if that day you had started training with an MMA coach where you could blend kung fu into his training paradigm?! You'd be so much better. How many more years is it going to take? How many more years will you waste and never get back?

[omarthefish]

There doesn't seem to be CMA MMA .... there's BJJ/kickboxing MMA, but there doesn't seem to be any CMA MMA.

Except for this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBoxX48_tAo

[lunghushan]

Except for this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBoxX48_tAo

I can't get Youtube at work anymore. Could you please elaborate on what you are pointing to?

I guess my point is, in most every major city, you can go do MMA which is boxing/kickboxing/grappling.

But where can you find CMA MMA schools? The closest thing is Sanshou and sanda, right? But that's with big gloves and is basically just longfist with some full hand glove grappling. Do they use any palm techniques or anything?

[omarthefish]

I can't get Youtube at work anymore. Could you please elaborate on what you are pointing to?


Highlight reel from a pro-MMA fighter I know. He's an eagle claw guy.



But where can you find CMA MMA schools?

There's more than you think. They just don't always advertise it. Omega's place, the dude in the clip I posted, is a regular McDojo. He says so himself. They just happen to have a serious fight team that trains there on certain nights.

[lunghushan]

Highlight reel from a pro-MMA fighter I know. He's an eagle claw guy.

There's more than you think. They just don't always advertise it. Omega's place, the dude in the clip I posted, is a regular McDojo. He says so himself. They just happen to have a serious fight team that trains there on certain nights.

Well I found one place in Bothell, WA that does some kind of modified JKD and some really bad Wing Chun that has an MMA night (nothing pro or anything) but the instructor instead of letting me do MMA tried to talk me into doing his really bad Wing Chun.

If those places exist they are the extreme minority rather than the majority. For some reason you guys always bring up the few counter examples and thinks that disproves the rule.

If anybody has a list of the CMA fight schools, please let me know, but I'm not worried about it anymore. I've given up on it because I got tired of searching around. It seems like if Ray wants to be a good fighter, amateur, Pro, whatever, that he should be finding a good fight school.

And the good fight schools seem to primarily be NOT CMA schools. Just because there are a few around doesn't mean they are all over like other MMA schools.

[Ray Pina]

it seems like youre in denial , not trying to knock you, but you want to do MMA with your style, youre not doing much, by losing. youre just proving the non believers right, saying that CMA is not effective at all.

It was my first cage match. I believe I could have just as easily won .... than should I post here that I am some internal champion for winning one amatuer fight?

I could win my next one... or the one after that, or the one after that. It's amatuer. Right now my goal is to just gain experience fighting quality fighters. Let people say what they want. I'm getting better with each fight.... I actually find my biggest improvements come after a loss.

[Ray Pina]

Seven Star, Ford Perfect, Knife Fighter and others... I really do understand what you're saying.

I'm in a transitional period:) of my life right now.... might be moving ... but your opinions have been noted. I might look around just to get a higher level of daily competition.

I would have considered Serras, which is around the block from my job, but his personally (as seen on TUF) kind of bothers me. Gracie's NYC academy is just an hour train ride away.

We'll see what happens. But I apreciate the feedback.

Ray

[FatherDog]

First, props for stepping up, and for not trying to sweep failure under the rug.


[
1) Don't rush. I was down and receiving knees, but I was able to absorb most of them. However, I lost because I forced changing the position when I should have stayed and let my man spend energy.

"Staying and letting your man spend energy" means you're going to sit there and eat knees for the rest of the round. People who are serious about competition have conditioned themselves to the point that they can easily hold down and throw knees for an entire round on someone that is "staying and letting [them] spend energy." If you are in a bad position, get out of it, don't hang out waiting in vain for your opponent to tire.



At one point he was using his forearm to choke me. That was a problem I had to get rid of. Then I saw the arm. Thing was, I could make that mistake and recover against 85% of the guys I play with.

Which is why everyone keeps telling you you need to find better people to train with.


I spent some time talking to the folks at Pitt Pen. Some of them were pros. Good people. Great coach. One of their guys was supposed to fight the guy who broke my nose in Dec. He got hurt and couldn't fight. Turns out he was already fighting pro MMA on the day I faced him in amatuer San Da. That made me feel better, and made a whole lot of sense.

But anyway, these guys had awesome ground technique.

Pitt's Penn guys came in several times to train at BAMMA when I was there. They are tough guys and good fighters. They do /not/ have "awesome" ground technique, and if you think they do it is further evidence that your ground game is greviously lacking.

[lunghushan]

This whole conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with my pot-head guitar teacher back 7 years ago.

He was an awesome guitarist, had his own band, and made an okay living but never took the next step, which was to market himself and write some decent songs.

I would bring it up, and he'd go, "Yeah, that's a good idea." And then roll himself another joint, or take another bong hit.

The last thing he told me was, "Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll have to get started on that."

I went back to check on him the other day and he's still doing the same thing, except his girlfriend (who was pretty hot) dumped him.

Ray, JUST GET A FRICKING FIGHTING COACH!!! Good grief, why do you want to waste your time trying to figure it out?

[mbkickboxer]

It's all a learning experience. Ray did what most guys talk about and criticise other fighters for but never actually do themselves. The key is to learn from his mistakes. With a little knowledge of the ground game Ray would have easily gotten away from that guy.

The fact is that guy was pretty crappy himself on the ground. If that guy really new the ground game he would have easily transiitioned from side control to a full mount as there was no blocking present or he could have easily gone for a better submission, instead he went for a corny neck crank/choke.

Anyone bashing ray is retarded...think you are better, then get in the cage and prove it. Like I said all he has to do is learn the basics on the ground, tighten up the standup game and he'll be fine. Only other suggestion would be to get a corner man. If Ray had a knowledgeable corner man he could have easily been guided out of that bad position.

peace...the roaming warrior!

[lunghushan]

Well for the record I'm not bashing Ray. I'm not going to do cage fights because that's not my interest, but if he's interested and wants to win it seems like he needs the best coach around.

[mbkickboxer]

^If he is going to fight MMA more often he is definitely going to need an training in a couple of things. Definitely needs to pick up some ground skills, even if its just submission defense, or learn how to avoid takedowns and sprawl. even if he doesn't want to do the thai boxing, western boxing should be incorporated for movement, and better punching techniques. the more you learn the better.

[Ray Pina]

Due to irreconcilable differences with my master (ridiculous **** happened this weekend), I’ll be checking out the Gracie academy Tuesday night.

I have no hard feelings towards my master – his hands are great and I think I got the gist of it – but if I stay one more day I might. I just can’t go to the next level there. Not because of his skill, but because there are no other fighters there.

Hopefully Renzo can do for my ground what my master did for my standup.

Kind of refreshing to not have a master anymore. Free to fight how I want, without having to form to some ideal.

[PhilDunlap]

Ray I think this will turn out to be the best move you could make if you wish to continue fighting. Everyone trains and does things for different reasons and it is extremely important if you are going to fight to have a supportive environment

I am always amazed when I am at these events and guys have no one to wrap their hands, close a cut or work their corner. Climbing in that cage is a lonely enough walk it is always nice to have a support structure.

[SevenStar]

It's all a learning experience. Ray did what most guys talk about and criticise other fighters for but never actually do themselves. The key is to learn from his mistakes. With a little knowledge of the ground game Ray would have easily gotten away from that guy.

The fact is that guy was pretty crappy himself on the ground. If that guy really new the ground game he would have easily transiitioned from side control to a full mount as there was no blocking present or he could have easily gone for a better submission, instead he went for a corny neck crank/choke.

Anyone bashing ray is retarded...think you are better, then get in the cage and prove it. Like I said all he has to do is learn the basics on the ground, tighten up the standup game and he'll be fine. Only other suggestion would be to get a corner man. If Ray had a knowledgeable corner man he could have easily been guided out of that bad position.

peace...the roaming warrior!


Most of us giving advice - not bashing - HAVE fought in some aspect, be it san shou, thai boxing, mma, boxing, etc. or are very competition minded. There is a huge difference between giving advice and bashing.

And he couldn't have been guided out of his position without grappling knowledge. that's #1. next would be having a corner, IMO.

[SevenStar]

Ray I think this will turn out to be the best move you could make if you wish to continue fighting. Everyone trains and does things for different reasons and it is extremely important if you are going to fight to have a supportive environment

I am always amazed when I am at these events and guys have no one to wrap their hands, close a cut or work their corner. Climbing in that cage is a lonely enough walk it is always nice to have a support structure.


agreed.:cool:

[Ray Pina]

I'd like to say one thing in defense of myself AND, most importantly, the other guy.

I've receieved letters saying with a little ground game I could have won because the other guy was obviously no good, he should have mounted, etc.

Let me say this: I've fought on the street, in the ring, in back rooms and now in the cage. Each one has its own feel and pace.

For myself, I do actually have a ground game. I know submissions and escapes and I have worked them against NAGA champions.

As for the other guy, his side mount was powerful (I know, I was there and have played with plenty to compare it with). I feel he was best where he was. The rules did not allow face strikes and I was well prepared to roll with an arm bar. I actually have a lot of traps to set from there.

He had good position and was working me.


As for judging people's skill from 1:54 of video, how bad did Royce look against Matt Hughes? If he wasn't Royce and posted that footage here, everyone would be telling him to go train BJJ.

**** happens in fights. Chances are, guys going out to fight know what all of us know. They're just putting themselves in the position to fail.

[Ray Pina]

Ray I think this will turn out to be the best move you could make


Yea. I think so too.

Bummed things turned out the way they did with my master, but I feel refreshed knowing I'm starting a new phase on my path as a martial artists.

Thanks

[SevenStar]

check your pm box, ray.

[Faruq]

Ray, did you ever mention who your master was or what style he teaches?

[lkfmdc]

I could have won because the other guy was obviously no good, he should have mounted, etc.



I know this isn't Ray saying this, but I have to commet. To all the arm chair and keyboard warriors, the "other guy" is John Benson Salgado who before joining NY San Da had a three round war with Tim O'Connor. Tim has KO'd in the first round 5 of his other 7 opponents.

Since joining NY San Da, John is now 2-0. In addition to beating Ray, he beat a very game fighter from Brad Daddis camp. They are BJJ fighters with Rigel as their Muay Thai coach. IE they are tough SOB's....

Currently, John is getting his stand up from Tim O'Connor and me and his ground work from Carmine Zocchi, BJJ brown belt, 12 years experience and also a decorated competitor

It's absurd for you to think John is "weak" from the vantage point of your padded chairs....

To Ray: best of luck, I think you will be better for it

[Ray Pina]

Thanks Coach.

I got to say, your man had a very strong mount.

[Ford Prefect]

Ray,

Congrats. I think you will be happy that you made a move. You'll have much more in common with your training partners and the evironment will be more constructive towards your goals.

I agree that nobody can say that the guy was no good on the ground. It really is impossible to tell from a limitted clip like that. I think all guys like Sevenstar, myself, etc were saying was that you need to train with other fighters and with a coach familiar with the game. Best of luck in the move.

[SevenStar]

Ray, did you ever mention who your master was or what style he teaches?

He's mentioned it several times, though maybe not on this thread.

[lkfmdc]

Ray's situation appears to be the common problem with TCMA today... technique alone does not equal the ability to fight... to fight, you must TRAIN, train realistically, with resistance and context... or as we define it on www.SanDa-MMA.com

If training follows these guidelines, you will be able to discover which techniques are both practical and functional, and a majority of the student body will see appreciable benefits in a reasonable amount of time.

Guideline #1: "Structure"
The foundation of the program is learning the proper position and the proper execution of the techniques. Most of the problems students have in applying technique is found in the incorrect execution; the wrong position, the wrong distance, the wrong angle, etc.

Guideline #2: "Movement"
Since an adversary will not stand in one place during a real fight, all the drills must incorporate movement to replicate real conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, footwork, real distance, distance control, level control and head movement.

Guideline #3: "Impact"
While many traditional martial arts place a heavy emphasis on doing techniques without impact, the reality is that hitting an adversary is quite different from hitting the air! Our program includes a significant time devoted to working with various pieces of equipment so the student becomes familiar with the feeling of impact and develops power and focus.

Guideline #4: "Resistance"
Each drill must include or simulate the resistance (or counter attack) of a real opponent.

Guideline #5: "Context"
Each drill must include context; why the technique is being used, when the technique is being used, how the technique is being used, etc. This also includes discussion of our basic theories such as "leaks", "continuousness", "gates", "bridges", etc.

[Ray Pina]

With all do respect to myself, and my former master, I believe the training I have received to date has given the ability to handle myself quite well in a fight.

The difference is competing on a higher competitve level. For that, I agree with what you are saying.

I believe the material offered to me by my former master is suitable, I just had no one to engage it with. That type of training is great for someone who wants to learn self defense, body mechanics and health. It served me well and I'll never dismiss it.

It was just time for me to move on.

[Faruq]

Yeah, kudos again Ray!


I know this isn't Ray saying this, but I have to commet. To all the arm chair and keyboard warriors, the "other guy" is John Benson Salgado who before joining NY San Da had a three round war with Tim O'Connor. Tim has KO'd in the first round 5 of his other 7 opponents.

Since joining NY San Da, John is now 2-0. In addition to beating Ray, he beat a very game fighter from Brad Daddis camp. They are BJJ fighters with Rigel as their Muay Thai coach. IE they are tough SOB's....

Currently, John is getting his stand up from Tim O'Connor and me and his ground work from Carmine Zocchi, BJJ brown belt, 12 years experience and also a decorated competitor

It's absurd for you to think John is "weak" from the vantage point of your padded chairs....

To Ray: best of luck, I think you will be better for it

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

Matt Serra has always been nothing but a class act to me, whether I have lost to, or beaten his guys at tournaments. I can't speak beyond that.

They train hard - fair warning - I expect you'll enjoy it! :D

As far as the guy's ground skill (the one you fought), no idea. Can't tell from that clip. Also, it's impossible to tell when the skill mismatch is so great.

No offense to Ray here, but regardless of what limited experience he has on the ground, he isn't really in a position to judge that guy's ground game, except in a relative sense.

By way of example, I have done some randori with Rhadi Ferguson - a U.S. olympian, and a fellow by the name of Shin Kim, who was on the Korean national team. They are both in the same weight and strength neighborhood. Somebody asked me who was better.

I have NO IDEA. I'm no slouch in the Judo department for an ex-wrestler BJJer who doesn't really do that much judo. I can hold my own at local shiais...but all I knew is that I was helpless against both of them. I expect that a nationally ranked Judoka could probably make that sort of distinction. I was just disoriented and overwhelmed.

Does that make any sense? I'm not trying to insult anybody here, I promise.

[Green Cloud]

Hi ray hope all is well, looks like you are evolving as a MArtist keep up the good work. I'm sorry to jump into this thread a bit late but I was just wondering wich game did you find to be harder San Da or Cage fighting???

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Does that make any sense? I'm not trying to insult anybody here, I promise.

i dont think the skill difference was quite as drastic as what you are describing but i get the drift. on a different night with better preperation (and possibly a friggen corner!!!!) i'm sure ray would have put on a much better show. would he have won? im not a betting man, but from the very little bit i've seen i wouldn't put money on it ... at least not on the ground ... but i do think he'd still have a punchers chance.

[Green Cloud]

GDA just wondering WTF is up with the Handicap kid is that you if it is I apologize in advance, I'm not trying to be a **** just been wondering that's all.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

dude thats my little brother .... everyone knows that.

thats messed up man. jesus.

[PangQuan]

lmfao!!!!!

[WinterPalm]

The whole time when I was watching the video I kept screaming at the screen "KICK HIM IN THE HEAD, RAY! HIGH KICK! KICK HIM IN THE HEAD! HIGH KICK!".
Then I would turn to my loving girlfriend and scream "WHY ISN'T HE KICKING HIM IN THE HEAD?! WHAT'S WRONG WITH HIM?! WHY ISN'T HE KICKING HIM IN THE HEAD?! WHAT IS HIS MAJOR MALFUNCTION?!" She told me to "SHUT UP!".

Work your highkicks man...look at this guys head at the end!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ltulN-8y5A

I'm just bugging you. But a Canadian named Georges St. Pierre trains at your new club...might be worth your time to spar with him.

Oh yeah, do you still think you could take Matt Hughes?

[Merryprankster]

I was only referring to the ground game, GDA. I have no idea how the stand-up would have matched up.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I was only referring to the ground game, GDA. I have no idea how the stand-up would have matched up.

right right ... but i still dont think the skill difference was quite that far removed. then again i do understand you were making a point and maybe im nitpicking too much.

[Ray Pina]

wich game did you find to be harder San Da or Cage fighting???

I like the cage more than San Da because of the pace. Without head gear and with smaller gloves, the tempo is a bit slower, there's more respect for hands.

Then again, I'm in much better shape now than I was then... everything physical is much easier now. But I won't fight San Da again. I will fight in the cage many more times.

[Ray Pina]

Work your highkicks man...look at this guys head at the end!


Head kicks were illegal in that venue


Oh yeah, do you still think you could take Matt Hughes

In the cage? No.

In a parking lot, perhaps.

But I'm not that guy anymore, worried about this guy or that guy. I'd rather keep my mouth shut and train. If someone wants to compare, I'm down. But no need to talk before or after, just study what happenes.