Ideomotor Response

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Everyone,

Does anyone know much about Ideomotor Response?

Is it related to what we do, when the body moves by itself?

If so, is it related to CTS?

Can we manipulate the opponent's IR to make him/her bounce himself/herself out without much of our own physical effort?

Is this why we see sometimes some of those really weird demos?

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi John: I don't think there is any relevant connection between the Connective Tissue System (CTS) and Ideomotor Response (IMR).. at some level IMR is a subconscious activity dependent on intent.. CTS, if uninhibited, can interpret and respond to stimulus without engaging mental processes.. recall the bumped vase scenario, where without thought you respond accurately to prevent the conclusion of a mistake.. no thought, conscious or subconscious, just instantaneous action, accurate quick and appropriate.. IMR seems to be tangled in subconscious agendas or spiritualist contrivances.. it seems to be relatively slow in its manifestation, like a calculated response.. I could be wrong, though.. my familiarity with IMR is a bit limited..

Be well...

[Kaitain(UK)]

The IMR is the basis of Ting jin as far as im concerned. It is basically the idea that a thought will manifest in an unconscious movement.

You can do this for yourself - get a pendulum (anything that has some inertia to it when hanging). Hold it in your hand so it draps over the side of your fist - then concentrate on the end of the pendulum and "will" it to move forward and back, then left and right, then will it to stop, circle clockwise and anti-clockwise. The will manifests in unconscious physical responses.

Now - a Mentalist develops his sensitivity to these movements in order that he can appear to read someone's mind. For instance I can tell which corner of a room someone is thinking of by touching their hand and getting them to think of it.

How is it useful to taiji? The theory (and my experience is consistent with this) is that a conscious movement is preceded by an unconscious one (the IMR), and sufficient listening ability enables someone to detect the unconscious movement before the conscious movement manifests. This is basically Ting jin in pushing hands imho- you can do it already, it's just been developed unconsciously.

It is a hard thing to develop conscious ability with - unless you are interested in becoming a Mentalist I wouldnt recommend bothering with it. My experience is that the conscious skill required for 'psychic' feats of magic does not translate to the skill required when pushing hands - both are taking advantage of the IMR, but they are not complementary.

Bob - IMR is instant, it's just the conscious reading or manipulatin of it that is slow (at first)

Still learning about ICS - reading The Western Gate - a great read, thanks for the recommendation.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi John,

The ideomotor effect is a response to subconscious thought. It appears to be random or spontaneous because we are unaware of the connection to our mind. When we become aware of the connection it no longer appears to be automatic or spontaneous and we see it for what it is, a reaction to thought.
_____________________________________________

Hi Bob,

I think your view on the dropped vase is incomplete. It does involve thought. Here is why:

Consider a dropped pencil. I may or may not react to catch a dropped pencil, but most likely I will react to catch a dropped vase. Why? There is a difference in value. A vase is more valuable and more likely to be seriously damaged by falling so I will react according to the value I place upon what I have dropped. My unconcern for a dropped pencil is because I value it less. My concern for a vase is because I value it more. I will value a priceless vase more than a dime store vase. If I react to catch a pencil it is most likely motivated by convenience, I don’t want to bend over to pick it up. If I react to the vase it is most likely do to its value. I don’t want to bear the cost or inconvenience of replacing it.

Values are a product of thought which is a function of mind. I have thoughts within my mind that determine meaning and value and these motivate my actions.

Value is a contrived condition of thought. If I did not recognize the reality and therefore value of the vase I would have no reason to catch it and thus would not catch it. A reaction based upon “no thought” cannot consider value. Value is a characteristic of thought. So my CTS response is motivated and directed by thought. If there is no thought there is no value and without value there is no need to catch the vase. CTS is a physical response to thought, but it is a different kind of thought than thought as expressed in the linear fashion of words.

Most people do not consider what it means or what really occurs when we say, “to react without thought”. Reacting with “no-thought” does not mean without thinking. Reacting without thought means, “without thought expressed as words”. Because we are conditioned to think in words we consider that thinking “is the words”, but words are only the expression of the thought, not the thought itself. Thought occurs instantaneously. A thought is a holistic condition, the “undifferentiated fog of knowing” I have referred to in the past. When I translate thought into words a knowing that is instantaneous becomes subject to a linear expression, which occurs over time. Thought is instantaneous; it is the expression of thought as words that takes time.

Spontaneously catching a dropped vase is motivated by a thought response that is non-linear. It “appears” as NO THOUGHT because we have not trained ourselves to perceive thought as it simply IS in its unconditioned state.

Now, what does it take to physically catch the vase? Coordination of movement. Coordination of movement is subject to training. The better my trained coordination the more likely I will catch the vase.

My ability to catch the vase is determined by perception that it is falling, the interpretation of the meaning and consequence of it landing (The vase’s value to me.) and my level of trained coordination.

So CTS contributes to my ability to catch the vase, but it isn’t CTS what does the thinking or the catching. Thought motivates my response which is influenced by my coordination. Whether CTS is activated or not is determined by the amount of linear thinking in words that occurs to interfere with my stimulus/response reaction.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: I both agree and disagree.. Yes, the perception of value is a consideration of response.. but, it is conceived as thought and stored as memory.. now, to go a little further in the theories of CTS, there is evidence that suggests that memory is stored in the CTS.. as inherent vibrations, not unlike music.. the suggestion that the CTS responds apart from conscious mental processing is based on the theory that the CTS processes stimulus and responds according to preconceived priorities.. rather than engage the analytical thought processes, the CTS applies the preprogrammed priorities consistent with the situation.. a process akin to intuiting.

You have touched on a very critical issue, for me..

A thought is a holistic condition, the “undifferentiated fog of knowing” I have referred to in the past. When I translate thought into words a knowing that is instantaneous becomes subject to a linear expression, which occurs over time. Thought is instantaneous; it is the expression of thought as words that takes timeThis is a well presented description of our situation, and representative of the issue we discuss.. the mind, as an interface between body and spirit, translates pure thought into words for analytical purposes.. and, we hold great debates and meaningful conferences in the great chambers of the mind.. we discuss anything from the meaning of life to favorite music in our minds.. but, when we think with words we hold conversations in our minds.. who are we talking to? We are talking to ourselves! we already know what we are saying and we already know how we will respond.. The CTS, as you suggest, simply bypasses the "small talk", and effects appropriate action based on the sum of our experiences to date.. The mind reaches into the memories and treats the memories like a large library, searching for references to develop a solution to any focused condition.. during this analytical process the condition of focus on one or, at best three, issue(s) excludes other solutions.. from the CTS perspective, there is no "focus" per se, all solutions present themselves and the appropriate solution simply fits the situation and satisfies predetermined priorities.. a bypassing of internal dialogue and analysis.. i sense that this is what is described as "internalizing"..

I am also fond of the description of an "undifferientiated fog of knowing".. aspects of that fog will either be translated into words for thoughtful consideration.. or, expressed "intuitively" through the effects of CTS.. Considering that the CTS is present surrounding every cell in our bodies, and present inside each cell down to the molecular level.. it is easy to see how the mind/CTS interaction is complimentary.. the CTS permits us to be present in the moment while the mind affords the luxury of thoughtful consideration.. LOL, not that there is an "actual" difference.. just two sides of the same coin..

Be well...

[extrajoseph]

Is it possible that IMR is CTS not getting the feed-back it suppose to have?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

That is an excellent post; I quite agree with you. It is the internalized (programmed, conditioned) priorities that are translated as the spontaneous and instantaneous response of the body, including the CTS in my opinion.

There is ample evidence that cells hold memory. There are numerous documented cases of transplant recipients who perceive and even manifest characteristics of the personality of their organ donor. So I am in total agreement with you here!

[Ronin22]

Wow, great stuff....

Are you guys suggesting that we shouldn't think so much just mererly react? With regards to the example of simply reaching for a cup, in our minds we might say "reach for the cup" to ourselves and thus reacting but is the view to be taken to just reach for it without the chatter? I don't know how that can be done with out some sort of distraction, such as talking on the phone but knowing you want a cup and at that point it becomes a clean reaction with no reall thought. No?

I'm wondering how this would play into a situation I had the other day. I was driving on the highway and I cut someone off (yes I admit it, bad move) After I cut this person off he goes flying past me and does the same to me, flipping me the bird , swearing his head off. Now, we were in rush hour so traffic does come to stop so i started thinking about how this would play out if he gets out of the car. We did in fact stop and I'm jacked up as well as he I presumed so I could feel my thinking wasn't the clearest but started to visualize what I would do if he came out of the car with a bat or with a knife. I do carry a couple of different weapons in my car and i started thinking about when to pull out what depending on if he came at me with something. They weren't clear thoughts either it was like I would visualize him coming out of the car with a bat but "talk" inside my head if he has a bat grab the pistol. Then had visualizations/ flashes of when he got to the car if he took a swing at me this way I would do "that" type of thing. Nothing happened thankfully but after reading these posts it got me to wondering what effect all the vizualizing and back chatter would have on my actions.

Any thoughts?


Also, are these concepts the same as the Japanese concept of "Mushin" or "no mind"?


Thanks
Christopher

[cjurakpt]

Krishnamurti uses the phrase "choiceless awareness" to describe this state of non-referenced action; it's also essentially what all the Ch'an koans are trying to bring about: they force the mind into a sort of "psychotic breakdown" (my teacher's phrase), where the faculties of cognition no longer can account for the perceived contradiction, and just stop working - at this very moment, one has the opportunity to break out of conditioned habit, and operate unhampered by the illusion of "psychological time" (another Krishnamurti-ism)

the CTS, not being mediated by the neurological system the way the muscles are, is free to act without the cognitive component slowing it down - rather, it's a much more direct feedback loop - the sheer mechanics of the way forces distribute through it allow for this; the best thing one can do, is get out of one's own way in a sense, and allow the forces to move unhindered, although there is something guiding them on some level as well, what one might consider as "pre-conditioned" thought, which is what you guys have been talking about; thus, operating in this way, one moves from stillness to contemplation: working out of the CTS, the "chatter" stops (stillness), and one is thereby able to perceive the ground of being (contemplation);

so, what does that taste like?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Ronin: LOL, i'm all too familiar with the situation you described.. and, at one point in my life i would have reacted similarly.. more recently, as the offended driver sought revenge, i just smile an shoot him the Peace sign.. then, we fortuitously meet at a quickie food-mart.. he calls me an a-hole and i reply, "thanks for noticing", with a good natured smile.. for a moment this confuses him and i say, "sorry, i was distracted by my own issues, i hope your day goes better".. there was some mumbling and grumbling as we parted, but.. no violence..

Conversely, supposing he did get out with a weapon, what then? if it's a firearm, start begging for your life.. if it's a knife or bat, wait.. let him be the aggressor, hoping for witnesses.. then, don't get in your head planning a stragety.. his movements will dictate your response.. planned strageties seldom go as planned, then you are the confused victim..

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

....started to visualize what I would do if he came out of the car with a bat or with a knife.... Also, are these concepts the same as the Japanese concept of "Mushin" or "no mind"?



Hello Christopher,

I would say, visualizing how you would react is a good thing.... but not immediately before a possible confrontation.

Why? during other times, if every now and again you think about how you would deal with different ways of defending yourself, over time you would have imagined many different scenarios and these scenarios would become part of your subconscious. For example, it is proven that consciously imagining shooting a basketball can improve your game even if you never have a basketball in your hand!

However, just before a confronting situation, if you imagine/visualize too much your mind becomes "locked" into certain patterns, and if the scenario turns out to be different to what you have visualized, you mind will not be free enough to deal with the situation. So, the best thing to do just before a fight is to clear your mind and just deal with the situation as it happens. The "Mushin" that you mentioned.

If you have seen the movie "The Last Samurai", there was one scene where Tom Cruise (he just never seems to get killed when everyone else dies??!?) was ambushed by a group of enemies. He took a breath, cleared his mind, defeated everyone THEN he thought back what he had done.... that's the idea of "Mushin".

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

more recently, as the offended driver sought revenge, i just smile an shoot him the Peace sign.. then, we fortuitously meet at a quickie food-mart.. he calls me an a-hole and i reply, "thanks for noticing", with a good natured smile.. for a moment this confuses him and i say, "sorry, i was distracted by my own issues, i hope your day goes better".. there was some mumbling and grumbling as we parted, but.. no violence..



Sorry, this is drifting off topic a bit, but just a quick note. :)

What TaiChiBob has described, is the irony of Martial Arts... The better a martial artist, the less likely he/she needs to use it.

Most fights occur when one or both parties have a point to prove, like "Don't call me an a-hole 'coz you are the a-hole"; or when someone had inconvenienced you, you retaliate because of an "underlying anger" being displace onto the person, without realizing that by retaliating you are inconveniencing yourself even further.

As one gets better with martial arts training, one no longer needs to prove a point because one becomes totally comfortable with, and complete awareness of, his/her own abilities. The mind is therefore "calm". Plus, from an efficiency point of view, the mind can freely choose the least inconvenient way of neutralising the confrontation with no emotional attachment which often leads to a peaceful resolution instead of fighting.

Good on you Bob :)

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks, John.. <humble bows>..

Several months ago i was stopped at a light when the passenger in the car in front of me dropped a Wendy's (hamburger fast-food) bag full of trash out the window.. i put my vehicle in park and ran over and picked it and since the window was still open i handed to the passenger and said, "whew!! you dropped your bag, lucky i got it for you before the light changed".. the stunned look on the faces was priceless.. but, it was followed by a stream of profanity and threats.. then, with a look of shock, i asked "you mean you MEANT to throw your trash out here, do you think the world is YOUR trash can?" The light changed and i was following the car with no intent of further incident, then.. the passenger tossed the bag in such a manner that it landed just in front of my vehicle.. as disgusted as i was, i had no further intentions.. but, the universe had other ideas, in their need to show me who was in control they didn't see the FHP (Florida Highway Patrol) waiting to get into traffic right beside them.. blue lights and a none-too-happy Officer balanced the equation nicely..

I know too many Martial Artists that are just waiting for an opportunity to "show their stuff".. many of them will interpret innocent situations to fit their desire to show their hard earned training works.. but, i notice that they usually do this with folks that don't appear to be a real challenge.. it's funny how the biker at the other end of the Pub can get away with the same situation and these guys just let it slide.. Personally, i try to disguise my status, better to be a surprise to an opponent than forewarned..

Once many years ago a guy in a hot Corvette really cut me off badly at the toll booth.. i followed him to the quickie mart with my bright lights on, i jumped out of my truck running my mouth at full-throttle.. his door opened and 6 foot six of massive human got out and calmly said, "is there a problem?".. i said, "yep, i'm about to get my butt kicked for no good reason".. he laughed and said, "naw, i'm sorry, i really didn't see you back there.. we had a good laugh, a good chat and he bought me a cup of coffee.. Whew!! a lesson learned.. Pick your fights carefully!!

Unless there is clear and present danger there is no valid reason to engage violence.. i don't understand why people respond words with fists.. i had a guy tell me he was "gonna "F" me up".. i said. "that's a real possibility, but.. it might go the other way, you wanna just flip a coin?".. he shook his head, laughed and said "you're too weird".. again, no violence.. There's almost always an alternative.. when there isn't one, use just enough force to neutralize the situation.. Karma might, someday, repay you based on how you play the game.. as a last resort, though, if there's no other way.. be quick and decisive, once you determine it has to go down, do it with the authority of knowing you tried to do the appropriate thing..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

Wise words my friend!!:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings,

Thanks, Scott..

The self-righteousness that often accompanies a developed discipline is an expensive luxury.. the cost is integrity..

Be well...

[extrajoseph]

Getting back to the main topic: the relationship between IMR and CTS.

Is it possible that IMR is the result of " no-mushin" and CTS not getting the feed-back it suppose to have?

When I saw this article:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html

I have a feeling that the "ling kong jing" is nothing more than IMR at work.

Any comments? John, Bob?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

IMR is a description of hypnotic suggestion.. it is used to elicit responses by subtle suggestion, sometimes even the facilitator is unaware of the subtle design of suggestion built into the technique in question.. unaware, they bought the notion and, unaware, keep it alive.. The CTS is a physically operational system, IMR is a nearly sub-conscious manipulation of standard physical systems.. In all of this is the unique operation of the "placebo effect", where unexplained healings occur without existent external agents.. it seems that merely the belief that external agents are at work is sufficient to inspire the mysteries of the body to replicate the expected result.

I use the phrase "mysteries of the body" intentionally.. there is an enormous amount of unexplained phenomena regarding the operation of our physical bodies, which , out of convenience, i will call "mysteries".. but, like all mysteries, there is a natural explanation.. either we lack the resources and technology to resolve the mysteries, or.. we are not yet evolved enough to comprehend the holistic experience of physical existence.. in either case, it is irresponsible to reject concepts that we can't yet verify.. naturally, caution and healthy skepticism are prudent, but must be employed with an open mind.

The CTS is the subject of intense scientific investigation, as demonstrated by links i have previously posted.. it is an observable and quantifiable system of operations that has just recently attracted the interest of researchers.. prior to such focused interest, the CTS was thought to be "filler" tissue of little importance.. now, it seems, the CTS may be a fundamental system in the body's operation.. the various modes of operation and the broad range of results attributable to the CTS are so advanced and equally subtle as to pose certain challenges to observation and measurement, but.. technology is evolving sufficiently to illustrate the importance of the CTS, and the scientific community seems to have a consensus of the need to pursue investigation into the CTS's role in human functions..

Conversely, IMR is most often linked to trickery and deception.. yet, (insert "open-mindedness" here...) the IMR is a functioning component in the placebo effect.. and, i am very intrigued by this operation..what is disturbing, to me, is that many people "dismiss" observable results as the product of the placebo effect, when, i think it would be more appropriate to understand the mechanics of the operation of the placebo effect.. rather than use it as a dump for unexplained results..

Anyway, just some random thoughts on the matter.. Be Well..

[extrajoseph]

Dear Bob,

Thanks for you input, from what you said about IMR I can understand why some students believed that their teacher has “ling kong jing” (or “yi jing”) and why some teacher can do them but don’t know how and why, but nevertheless they milk the situation to their advantage, like you said, “unaware, they bought the notion and, unaware, keep it alive.” Here is a good example, in particular watch the last one, "Master uproots students with his cheek":

http://itcca.org/site/content/org/Chi_demonstrations_20050720090827/index?lang=en

I can’t imagine it can be arranged, too many people involve, nor can I imagine that this teacher, with such a high reputation and pedigree, will set out to deceive deliberately, but once it started with a few, the “mob mentality” takes over and the charade continues…

Unaware of IMR, both the teacher and the students are victims of their own folie.

Regards,

EJ

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

EJ: Thanks, that was a great clip.. it demonstrates what i was trying to say.. did you notice the lady's expression on the right side of the frame, it looks like she turns away after the whatever it was to hide her confusion, LOL.. The "defense against the Japanese Sword is pretty comical, too..

The IMR is initiated by the "belief" that this stuff works, but.. the way the line of people respond to the "Chi" would lead me to believe the it was pretty slow stuff.. i have seen demos where the ukes literally exploded away from the nage, much more believable.. but, not quite.. the few "real" experiences i've had with it left me quite puzzled and certain of forces i couldn't yet grasp..

Be well..

[extrajoseph]

Daer Bob,

What about the last clip I was referring to, it is done to individual students?

Also would you say Reiki is more related to IMR and Rolfing more to CTS? (I hope it is not off-topic).

I have also had some "real" experience but if the doer cannot explain or teach me how to do it, what use is it to me? I just walk on...

Thanks again for your input.

Regards,

EJ

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

EJ: Yikes, i overlooked that one.. yeah, it's a little "cheeky" :rolleyes: i can't even imagine how someone buys that load.. a superior case of mass hypnosis.. sometimes called the "Sensei Syndrome", where respect and belief combine to produce a desired effect.. but some of those guys just turned and walked over to the next line.. that demo exceeds my ability to rationalize an explanation..

Also would you say Reiki is more related to IMR and Rolfing more to CTS? (I hope it is not off-topic).Yes, Reiki, of the dubious type, is very much related to IMR.. authentic Reiki, though, is quite tangible and willing to be tested in double blind tests.. Rolfing, is a technique used to remove obstructions that have built-up in the CTS.. excess colagen in a semi-solid state interferes with signaling and traps energies that are sometimes related to trauma, both physical and mental.. so, you have a pretty good grasp on this aspect of it..

Be well..

[extrajoseph]

Thanks Bob, good to get a second opinion on what one is thinking. EJ.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi guys,

A yang style tai chi master once discribed to me that it is the energy from the earth which powers his movements and makes him feel as though his movements were light as a feather because the air was dense as water hence the term floating/swimming in air. It's as though the body moves all by it's self without any intelectual thoughts or comand by the consious brain. He said this level was higher than relying on structure (peng path). He also mentioned that this energy is most developed in the yang and wu style and is not as developed in the chen style since it is the hardest of the 3.
Does anyone have an explaination of what this is, as well as the training method used to achieve this level.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

kung fu fighter: Google "Ground Reaction Force".. This is commonly referred to as earth energy.. but, it is our ability to use this energy efficiently and effectively that is the root of our training.. Earth is Yin, receptive, nurturing and fertile (full of potential).. we are Yang by comparison, expressive, creative and energetic.. at the points of interaction (feet) there is a huge realm of discipline to be explored in order to maximize the relationship..

There is a unique condition where our skeleton floats within our bodies.. it occurrs when connective tissue is actively participating in the experience.. the connective tissue forms an intricate and miniscule lattice-work that links every cell including bone cells.. when this lattice-work changes states from fluid to semi-solid the skeleton "floats" inside our bodies.. that accounts for the lightness.. as muscles relax and find their natural balance within the integrated systems of our functioning bodies there is an optimum symbiosis of systems.. the neuro-muscular integrates with, and supports, the more pervasive and tensile connective tissue.. in this symbiotic (coherent) state, there is a tangible vibration that is similar to a low range hum.. the range of the vibrations is related to the connective tissue's communication system.. each cell, organ, muscle and bone communicates it status by specific vibrational frequencies, and receives feedback and response protocols via other frequencies..

This introduces the concept of "relaxed power".. where, for maximum effictiveness, muscles maintain a certain relaxed springiness in a supporting role for a higher interactive system.. In a situation where an infant or a person in a mindless or artificially induced state of relaxation meets with a "sudden inertial event" (impact.. thanks to Oso for that phrase), the connective tissue responds like an auto's airbag, absorbing and distributing the impact in the safest manner appropriate for the situation.. in the aware and relaxed state of our discipline the muscles fill in, seamlessly, behind the connective tissue's response to add substance to the situation..

Problems occur when we consciously try to intervene with excessive muscular involvement.. by bringing the Yi (mind) to focus on muscular involvement, we take its attention away from the symbiotic holistic response.. excessive muscular response expands the size of muscle cells in the contraction/resistance operation, and as a consequence puts pressure on the connective tissue, reducing the tissue's vibrational potential and hampering its communication and response effectiveness.. to the degree we can discipline ourselves to trust the body's inherent and primal instinct for survival, we can simply bring the Yi (mind) to focus on the intented result of the response dictated by the situation.. and the body will seem to respond with such spped and power that it defies rational explanation.. the feeling evoked from such a response is an effortless floating through a hostile environment, things seem to happen without a conscious arrangement..

Back to the connection of earth energies.. given that all things have a vibrational signature(s), there is the ability for consciously aware systems to control and adjust their vibrational frequencies to varying degrees.. assuming that the earth has a distinct set of vibrations, we, as consciously aware systems (beings), can adjust to create a coherent relationship with the earth (rooting).. similarly, we can adjust to external conditions and establish vibrational links for purposes of healing, harming or general harmony.. we effectively connect with the earth, access the coherence of energies, link to another being and express our purpose through the disciplined control of vibrational frequencies.. this is an emerging science that is gaining momentum, the study of vibrational therapies.. the implications reach into every fabric of our existence.. consider that every aspect of our senses is founded on vibrational frequencies, from sound to light and the sensory system's transmission and processing of data.. all of it is based on the interpretation of vibrational frequencies of data..

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

Can i get your perspective as to what this energy is, do you agree with TaiChiBob or do you have a different opinion?



Hello Kungfu Fighter,

I definitely agree with Tai Chi Bob. Tai Chi Bob is explaining this whole TCC phenomenon from a different angle to what I am exposed to, helping me tremendously to further understand what I'm trying to achieve.




A yang style tai chi master once discribed to me that it is the energy from the earth which powers his movements and makes him feel as though his movements were light as a feather



I am not doubting or commenting on the master you talked to, but the problem is I have seen too many teachers telling people to "use the Earth Qi" and "make me feel powerful and light". His/her words are just empty words if he/she cannot utilize it in power generation or describe to you the exact method of harnessing it. If one makes such claims, one should substantiate it.

One of the things that I find quite useful, although Tai Chi Bob does not agree with, is the mental projection of geometric structures. I tend to use a lot of such projections. TCBob's explanations make sense too, so in the scheme of things it does not deviate from our overall goal no matter which approach one takes. I think it is more a personal choice.

In terms of utilizing the Earth's energy, I tend to like to use both Heaven and Earth, and not just Earth alone. There are many different ways to access such power. For example, I would sometimes gather Heaven Qi and Earth Qi, form it into a ball (size of a volley ball), send it out through the opponent, then disipitate it and a forward power would be generated WITHOUT consciousely trying to push. Of course, while practicing I do it slow to refine it, but when actually using it I have to do it within a split second.

Another one I use a lot of as well is to let the Heaven "rain" down, and let the Earth "grow". I just concentrate on the raining part, the growing part is completely secondary and require no conscious thought, though you may feel the effect. The result is a "Peng" power that again, requires no conscious effort.

The third one that I use, is to let the Heaven Qi comes down through me, letting the Earth Qi comes up, occupying the space between the Yinquao Channel, hollowing my body out like a tube. This is particularly useful when the opponent is pushing onto and chasing my centre. Because of the hollowing, he/she would feel like pushing into nothing, yet on target but cannot push through.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

Interesting mate, how often you using the Chi Ball also was this taught by your sifu or have you come up with this yourself?

Regards
Garry

[imperialtaichi]

Interesting mate, how often you using the Chi Ball also was this taught by your sifu or have you come up with this yourself?



Hello Garry,

I learn this from my teacher more than 8 yrs ago, but I couldn't fully understand it until recently, thanks to his daughter Sister Xilan who helped me develop it further.

I use the Qi Ball almost all the time... though different size, different location. The most common one I use is with fist, the "Wei Sing" or "Seeking Star" which is form of a very small Qi Ball, may be the size of a golf ball. It can be placed very far, which causes a gentle but long distance throw; or very close just behind the opponent which gives a sharp, punch like strike which does not throw very far. I would not place it inside my training partner/student unless under strict control because I do not know whether if it causes any damage if we do it too often.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi John: It's not so much that i disagree with visualization, in fact, i feel it's essential.. but, too many people get stagnated when they become good at visualizing.. visualizing is not doing.. but it can lead to doing.. i suppose i should just caution folks about the trap of visualizing, rather than advise against it..

The Qi-ball is very tangible, think about how like poles of a magnet repulse each other.. the Qi-Ball feels a bit like that.. we often comment on the qualities of our sensing this feeling.. but, the issue what to do with it..

Be well...

[extrajoseph]

Dear Bob and John,

Just a couple of short comments:

1) I think the Qi-ball is more with in than with out.

2) To get the Earthly benefits of Taijiquan, I think we need to be concerned with the Heavenly aspect as well. Hence the classic always talked about the head as though being supended from above.

EJ

[imperialtaichi]

...but, too many people get stagnated when they become good at visualizing...



Hello TaiChiBob,

Yes, good point. Good visualization is one thing, how to visualize is another. The trap is, although during form training we visualize the Qi Ball exactly how we want to place it (there is no opponent to interfere with it), when we are dealing with an opponent it is the opponent who reveals the location of the Qi Ball. Usually, we can find/project one close to where we want to go, but the exact location depends strongly on the opponent's power/structure, and the way it disipitate also depends on the opponent. So if we are too rigid in our visualization stagnation occurs.

When everything is moving so fast in a fight, recognizing the ball can sometimes be difficult for beginners.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Dr John,

Hi mate, what you are discribing is along the lines of my training and teaching, but then there is the people that think this Qi Ball and the good old Qi Blast is unrealistic. If you train and visiualise the ball then it should be there in a fight if you have trained it well enough and correctly.

It can be used to expan the energy field also in YKM to feel someone elses energy or intent. Do you train this?

Garry

[extrajoseph]

The term "visualization" is seldom used in Taijiquan , instead the terms "wei jing" and "nei jing" or "external scene" and "internal vscene" are used. That is, more of watching oneself, or be conscious and mindful of what one is doing intead of imagining what they will or should be. To visualize is to change the form into a symbol, that is using too much imagination or Heaven Qi. A subtle difference in terms but nevertheless a useful remainder.

[Scott R. Brown]

The term "visualization" is seldom used in Taijiquan , instead the terms "wei jing" and "nei jing" or "external scene" and "internal vscene" are used. That is, more of watching oneself, or be conscious and mindful of what one is doing intead of imagining what they will or should be. To visualize is to change the form into a symbol, that is using too much imagination or Heaven Qi. A subtle difference in terms but nevertheless a useful remainder.

Any form is a symbolic representation as well. Do you mean to turn an intent or concept into a form or symbol?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I think we may differ in our perceptions, John.. i have no real concept of a Qi ball, it is a useful metaphor, but.. the energy is shapeless.. it may be concentrated in a specific locallity temporarily, but.. to confine it to a specific shape or size may be more counterproductive than is desirable.. in fast-paced dynamic fighting situations the last thing i'm going to worry about is a Qi-Ball.. i will "listen" to interplay of energy fields and let my training and instincts manifest the appropriate action.. when we are fortunate enough to find the "zone", concepts disappear.. we find ourselves in an energetic continuum where everything is a natural correspondence to every other thing.. there is no imagining, visualizing, or contriving.. there is only the natural "doing"..

Again, this is simply my own experience.. not a standard or even a suggestion of validity.. it's just what works in my experience..

Be well...

[extrajoseph]

Hi Scott,

Bob has just answered your question for me, being "ziran" is the way to do TJQ. There are just too much "mysticism" associated with a set of simple and natural movements from CMA.

In my experience, it is best to do TJQ as a physical form and when the physical reaches its mastery stage the conceptual and the formless will surface and make sense. Otherwise they are just empty words we keep talking.

Ultimately, TJQ is not thinking and talking, it is doing and being.

Regards,

EJ

[imperialtaichi]

I think we may differ in our perceptions, John.. this is simply my own experience.. not a standard or even a suggestion of validity.. it's just what works in my experience..



Hello TaiChiBob,

I don't think there is one single path to reach our goals, but different methods suiting different people differently. As mentioned before, your explanations make sense totally, I will definitely keep that in mind while I am seeking my path.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I think we may over-use the "Qi-Ball" metaphor.. i don't sense an actual sphere of Qi, the sensations may feel like you have a ball in your hands, but.. it is a bit like compressing the center of a blanket, it's all blanket but your attention and effort changes the characteristics in a specific area.. We exist in an infinite sea of energy, that energy behaves in many different ways.. sometimes it behaves like a mountain, or a tree, or a person, or.. in the hands of a disciplined Taiji player, it behaves "like" a sphere of energy.. but, it is a continuum, like a river.. the river may be wide, slow, placid and deep in places, and narrow and fast in others, even with waterfalls and whirlpools.. Which reminds me of the metaphor, that we are like whirlpools in stream.. we recognize the whirlpool but often forget that it is just an aspect of the stream.. while it remains relatively fixed and recognizable, it exists only because the stream (energy) flows through it.. so, Qi or "Qi-Balls" (that would make it a male Qi, no?), any way.. Qi-Balls would best be conceptualized like whirlpools in a stream, not as separate objects of our construction..

A useful exercise is next time you are in a pool stand near one of the jets of water used for circulation.. or push your hand near your torso and feel the effect of the compressed water against your body.. this is very much like how we use energy.. remember that 80% of your body weight is water, so.. standing in water you are simply another aspect of that water.. another aspect of energy in a sea of energy.. this is how i experience Qi in my reality.. that it is all One thing behaving in many ways, and.. to the degree that any of those ways can expand its awareness, it can utilize the connection with the "Whole" for whatever purposes it is capable of controlling.. this is "big JuJu, Bwana".. it is limitless potential..

I think we confine the "Qi" experience by limiting it to a Ball metaphor.. for me, it is more like creating a shock-wave in the continuum of energy..

Just some thoughts.. Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

How does one develop the qi ball?

Is this the ball that is formed when you place your palms opposite of each ?



The Qi Ball is formed by the Yi, and not by the palms. The palms and/or the body follows the Qi Ball. It can be anywhere, independent of the palms.

If you use the palms to form the Qi Ball, then the power generated is "Body Dependent"; remember, the Tai Chi classics often talk about using the Yi and not the force; which means the formation of the Qi structures should be "Yi Dependent" and the body merely follows it.

Cheers,
John

[extrajoseph]

Dear John,

Getting back to our topic of conversation, would it be correct to say that being “Yi Dependant” is more susceptible to IMR than being “Body Dependant”? May be that is why the modern masters can do all those miraculous feats whereas the old masters cannot.

I thought when the classic says to use the Yi and not the Li, it means to use your Li intelligently and not just being “Yi Dependant” or “Body Dependant”. Don’t they (the Yi and the Li) depend on each other? Can we hold the Qi Ball with the body and the mind at the same time?

Regards,
EJ

[imperialtaichi]

...would it be correct to say that being “Yi Dependant” is more susceptible to IMR than being “Body Dependant”?...



Hello EJ,

I would think so... but not sure.




I thought when the classic says to use the Yi and not the Li, it means to use your Li intelligently and not just being “Yi Dependant” or “Body Dependant”. Don’t they (the Yi and the Li) depend on each other? Can we hold the Qi Ball with the body and the mind at the same time?



From what I understand, if one tries to use "Li" intelligently, one is still concentrating on Li. I think the "Li" part should be completely secondary to the Yi.
If we hold the Qi Ball with the body and mind at the same time, it becomes "double heaviness". Usually, when I switch on the Yi Qi and just let the body react to it, it is quite a nice feeling.

Of course, this is just my understanding and my experience only.

Cheers,
John

[kung fu fighter]

Hello imperialtaichi


"Usually, when I switch on the Yi Qi and just let the body react to it, it is quite a nice feeling."

By "Yi" Do you mean like if you see something and reach out to grab it with out thinking or when you are walking without conscously thinking about what you are doing, or things that one does by second nature such as driving?

Can you give us a discription of what you are talking about as well as some examples of how one switches on the "Yi" to lead the body?


Thanks
KFF

[imperialtaichi]

By "Yi" Do you mean like if you see something and reach out to grab it with out thinking or when you are walking without conscously thinking about what you are doing, or things that one does by second nature such as driving?

Can you give us a discription of what you are talking about as well as some examples of how one switches on the "Yi" to lead the body?



I would say a bit of all three... but the closest one would probably be walking where the legs move by themselves, and you just have to deal with where you want to go.

To turn on Yi, one must use the heart and not the brain. A good example is "Singing in the Shower" (which I often do, it is also a good feeling ;) ). How many times have we sing through the whole song, word by word, top of our voice, without thinking about it? Yet when we try to think of the words, we can't? True Yi is a bit like it.

Another example is that if I have to deliberately explain a method to a student, while explaining I may have difficulty doing it smoothly. But if I let it be, get back into the push hands, it will come out smoothly again.

Cheers,
John

[kung fu fighter]

Hi John,

So using the the "Yi" is a feeling, things which are done by second nature?
I read in a tai chi magazine that scientist recently discovered that there are certain cells in the stomach that can act like a second brain, maybe this is the heart that you are refering to?

I have heard stories of masters such as Waysun Lao who could repel or attract with a very light touch, or make you fall to the ground as though the earth was magnetically attracting you, also stories of yang lu chan repelling opponent's many feet away with no appearant physical contact.


Are there levels in tai chi that's higher than this one , if so what are they and how are they done?


Thanks
Navin

[imperialtaichi]

So using the the "Yi" is a feeling, things which are done by second nature?
I read in a tai chi magazine that scientist recently discovered that there are certain cells in the stomach that can act like a second brain, maybe this is the heart that you are refering to?



Hello Navin,

I've heard of it too, but without proper testing it is hard to say. There are so many things we do not know that we need to study further.




Are there levels in tai chi that's higher than this one , if so what are they and how are they done?



Supposingly, Zhang San Feng could walk into a room full of ememies, and everyone would freeze and drop their weapon without ZSF ever needing to lift his hands. He could walk into a forest and all the wild animals would run away and not harm him. However, we Chinese do like to exaggerate :o, so I don't know how much is true.




I have heard stories of masters such as Waysun Lao who could repel or attract with a very light touch, or make you fall to the ground as though the earth was magnetically attracting you, also stories of yang lu chan repelling opponent's many feet away with no appearant physical contact.



Yes, when my teacher throws me, it is always a light touch, and the power seems to come from elsewhere. It is actually not the contact point that throws you, the touch is merely to conduct the power through.

In terms of not touching, sometimes when I play with my students, if I get them in such a way that they have lost their balance and cannot retaliate, they would jump back before my palm strike lands, because them have learnt that if the palm lands, they are going to fall hard. From a third person perspective, it seems like I am throwing them without touching; but in reality they are jumping back themselves from learnt, previous experiences.

Now, many of these phenomenon I have experienced seems very real to the one receiving it, and definitely seem real to the person executing it as well. But how much is learnt response? how much is placebo? and is ideomotor responses at play?

Though many people see placebo as "not real", the effect is definitely very real, and has very definite therapeutic value in medicine. Can we apply placebo in fighting? And, if ideomotor response is at work here, can we utilize both our own ideomotor response and the opponent's ideomotor response for fighting purposes to give us seemingly super-human abilities like in the old stories?

Cheers,
John

[extrajoseph]

Hello EJ,

From what I understand, if one tries to use "Li" intelligently, one is still concentrating on Li. I think the "Li" part should be completely secondary to the Yi.
If we hold the Qi Ball with the body and mind at the same time, it becomes "double heaviness". Usually, when I switch on the Yi Qi and just let the body react to it, it is quite a nice feeling.

Of course, this is just my understanding and my experience only.

Cheers,
John


Dear John,

I like to point out that we are talking about three things here, "Li". "Body" and "Mind" (Yi). Li is static force made when the Body and the Mind are not integrated, whereas "Jing" is dynamic force made when the Body and Mind are integrated, so when I said to use the Li intelligently, I mean to integrate the Body and the Mind to make Jing, not whether the Li should be secondary to the Yi or not..

I cannot see how using the body and the mind at the same time can make a movement "double heavy", because they are essentially the yin and yang of the same Qi and when we exercise with the Qi Ball we are in essence "Yun Qi" or "to circulatre the Qi" and that has to be done by making Yin and Yang - Mind and Body working together. Switch on the Yi Qi may make you feel nice but without the Body Qi it will only be a feeling in your head and that to me is what "double heavy" means - Yin of the Mind only without Yang of the Body to make the Qi complete.

Regards,

EJ

[imperialtaichi]

I cannot see how using the body and the mind at the same time can make a movement "double heavy", because they are essentially the yin and yang of the same Qi and when we exercise with the Qi Ball we are in essence "Yun Qi" or "to circulatre the Qi" and that has to be done by making Yin and Yang - Mind and Body working together.



Hello EJ,

True, Yin and Yang always happen together; you simply cannot have one without another. However, from what I understand, we should only concentrate on one, and let the other happen automatically. From what I have experienced, dealing with both becomes ineffective.

For example, when I do the form, I deal mainly with the Yi, and let the Qi flow which in turn moves my body without my concious effort. Now, the body does move, but I do not willfully control it. And this gives me a feeling which described in TCC classics "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs".

As mentioned before, this is purely what I have experienced, what my teacher taught me, and what works for me. There are so many way of doing things that works well. And that's why we have a forum to discuss things. :)

Cheers,
John

[extrajoseph]

Hello EJ,

True, Yin and Yang always happen together; you simply cannot have one without another. However, from what I understand, we should only concentrate on one, and let the other happen automatically. From what I have experienced, dealing with both becomes ineffective.

If what you say is true, then it is equally possible to concentrate on the body and let the mind happen automatically. As for dealing with both at the same time, I never have any problems with it, after all we are made of body and mind at the same time.


For example, when I do the form, I deal mainly with the Yi, and let the Qi flow which in turn moves my body without my concious effort. Now, the body does move, but I do not willfully control it. And this gives me a feeling which described in TCC classics "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs".

Could you please tell us which TCC classis the above mentioned quote came from and if at all possible the Chinese characters? I have never heard of this saying before because "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs" means there is no mindfulness and no qi for it contradicted the saying "where the mind goes qi will follow".


As mentioned before, this is purely what I have experienced, what my teacher taught me, and what works for me. There are so many way of doing things that works well. And that's why we have a forum to discuss things. :)

I must say my experience is very different to yours and my three Taijiquan teachers all said the opposite thing to your teacher (safer to start with the body first then work towards the mind for the tangible is easier to grasp than the intangible), is it interesting? Any way, I am glad you are not taking things too personally.

Regards,

EJ

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

While i enjoy the classics and find it useful to examine things as component parts, ultimately, we are One thing.. an integrated symphony of systems. Imbalance is manifested through separation of the integrated being into parts.. attending to the "parts" is an evolutionary step toward unifying the Whole, where any aspect of the whole is manifested according to the immediate necessity (stimulus).. From my experiences and research, this is the realization of Taiji.. no dependency or exclusion of differing aspects, a coherent flow of appropriate responses..

Too much study of "parts" without integrating principles can leave us confused as to the appropriateness of our actions..

"Be One with the ball, Danny", Chevy Chase in Caddy Shack.. Be One with yourself..

Be well..

[kung fu fighter]

Hello John,


Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialtaichi
Yes, when my teacher throws me, it is always a light touch, and the power seems to come from elsewhere. It is actually not the contact point that throws you, the touch is merely to conduct the power through.

In your opinion was your teacher using the concept like the Tai Chi classics often talk about of using the Yi and not the force; which means the formation of the Qi structures should be "Yi Dependent" and the body merely follows it, or was it something different like "ling kong ging"?

[alquimista]

Hello ... im sorry about my bad english ... i just read this thread for the 1st time ... i am a little confused about all this western scientific names like ideomotor, CTS, IMR ... i didnt read all messages (they are too many already) but i think the main point of the thread is about when the body moves by itself with no conscious mind activity ...

Tao Te Ching explain this with “non-action”

In chapter 3 it says : Exercise “non-action” to rule and all will be well

When you live in harmony with Tao you act with no conscious mind activity ... because you are in harmony with everything around ... your instict will allways know what to do without the need of think. I practice Taiji (only meditation forms – no martial art) for 7 years and my master says that i will only be practicing Taiji for real if i can reach the state of Wuji (emptyness) ... so i can play the all form without thinking in what i´m doing ... just flowing naturally like water in the river... he says when i dont think i can feel the energy of Tao flowing in my body ... its difficult to play the all form without thinking ... i can only do it for some movements and is really like my body is moving alone... i just have to think when i start and then i just stop thinking and my body continues to move ... its a sensation that i can not describe ... but is really good ... i really hope one day i can play the all form like this ... it makes me feel really happy and in a very good mood.

I think in martial arts must be the same but much more difficult because you are fighting and everything happens so fast ...

I would like to know if any of you play Taiji following this principle ... if yes i would like to know about your feelings when you play.

Thank You,

Jorge

[imperialtaichi]

Hello EJ,


If what you say is true, then it is equally possible to concentrate on the body and let the mind happen automatically. As for dealing with both at the same time, I never have any problems with it, after all we are made of body and mind at the same time.



Ah ha! Exactly! you can't possibly move your arm without your mind at all. The only difference is, if your movements are body centric, the power comes out differently. There are things the mind can do that the body cannot, such as "Xin duan yi bu duan" which means the structure stops but the mind does not. I have been thrown both by people who are body centric and mind centric; both as powerful, but when people who are body centric throwing me it feels like being hit by a truck; with mind centric it feels like being carried off by a breeze.




Could you please tell us which TCC classis the above mentioned quote came from and if at all possible the Chinese characters? I have never heard of this saying before because "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs" means there is no mindfulness and no qi for it contradicted the saying "where the mind goes qi will follow".



I'll look it up :). The concept is everywhere anyway. For example (operating from memory here) Wu Yu Xiang mentioned "Si Jin you Dong, Si Dong you Jin" which means "see stillness as moving, see moving as stillness". It does not contradict the saying "where mind goes qi follows" when Yi moves->qi follows->body move by qi; so if you break it down, really yi does not move body, it is the qi that moves the body.





I must say my experience is very different to yours and my three Taijiquan teachers all said the opposite thing to your teacher (safer to start with the body first then work towards the mind for the tangible is easier to grasp than the intangible), is it interesting? Any way, I am glad you are not taking things too personally.


Of course, for biginners, one must start training with the body first, the yi concept would be too difficult for biginners. But, the yi concept should be introduced as soon as the student is capable of it.
I am not surprised your three teachers says things different from my teacher. Very few people teaches what my teacher teaches. I've been doing MA for a long time yet Wei Shuren is the first person who explains to me the way he does. I'm not comparing quality here, just different. If your methods works for you, that's great. I am here to discuss and learn. I won't take it personal.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

...In chapter 3 it says : Exercise “non-action” to rule and all will be well

...i can only do it for some movements and is really like my body is moving alone... i just have to think when i start and then i just stop thinking and my body continues to move ... its a sensation that i can not describe ... but is really good ...


Thanks Jorge! Well said!

[imperialtaichi]

In your opinion was your teacher using the concept like the Tai Chi classics often talk about of using the Yi and not the force; which means the formation of the Qi structures should be "Yi Dependent" and the body merely follows it, or was it something different like "ling kong ging"?



Hello KFF,

I have experienced the influences of LKJ, but the effect seems very minimal. I have yet to see it done on people totally non-cooperative and can still knock the person down.

Relationship between Yi->Qi->Body:

Yi can jump around, appearing and disappearing, can form any patterns. The difficulty is in recognising the True Yi, without which the Qi won't follow and the whole equation breaks down.

Qi follows the Yi, but flows from one place to another, and cannot just jump around. However, Qi is also everywhere which means we can utilize them anywhere we want.

Body moves by Qi, but don't deliberately follow it. It has to be natural. We just have to let it be. The easiest part.

Cheers,
John

[extrajoseph]

Hello EJ,
Ah ha! Exactly! you can't possibly move your arm without your mind at all. The only difference is, if your movements are body centric, the power comes out differently. There are things the mind can do that the body cannot, such as "Xin duan yi bu duan" which means the structure stops but the mind does not. I have been thrown both by people who are body centric and mind centric; both as powerful, but when people who are body centric throwing me it feels like being hit by a truck; with mind centric it feels like being carried off by a breeze.
Cheers,
John

Dear John,

The guy that can make you feel like being carried off by a breeze is not just mind centric, his body and mind are in tune with yours so it is “ziran” and “wu wei” at work. Being “ziran” and “wu wei” means both yin and yang are involved, that is both the body and the mind are involved, or to you’re your terminology being BOTH body AND mind centric.

The saying you quoted above, "xin duan yi bu duan" (I think it should be “shen duan yi bu xuan” - when the body is broken the mind is not) can have its opposite as well and that is there are things the body can do that the mind cannot. So a really accomplished player should be able to throw you like being hit by a truck OR being carried off by a breeze. If he can only do one and not the other, then he is not yet there.

“We are what we eat” as well as “we are what we think”, to say one is more true or one is more important than another shows that person don’t know about being a human.

Any way, all that mincing of words is just a waste of time, I can see your postures on your webpage and they showed your thinking is in your body. It is hard to change the way we think, so the alternative would be to work on our body, otherwise our art will always be only mind centric. Daoist thinking emphasised on the soft overcoming the hard, but to do that one needs to know what is like being hard first. Without knowing your body, what you know in your mind will only be in the clouds.

What I am trying to say is to see the whole and not just one part of the jigsaw that is Taijiquan; otherwise you will only be doing Taijigong thinking you are doing Taijiquan for the rest of your life. I will sign off on this one now. No offence intended, just my personal opinion.

Regards,
EJ

[imperialtaichi]

....Any way, all that mincing of words is just a waste of time, I can see your postures on your webpage and they showed your thinking is in your body. It is hard to change the way we think, so the alternative would be to work on our body, otherwise our art will always be only mind centric. Daoist thinking emphasised on the soft overcoming the hard, but to do that one needs to know what is like being hard first. Without knowing your body, what you know in your mind will only be in the clouds.

What I am trying to say is to see the whole and not just one part of the jigsaw that is Taijiquan; otherwise you will only be doing Taijigong thinking you are doing Taijiquan for the rest of your life. I will sign off on this one now. No offence intended, just my personal opinion.



Hello EJ,

Although we disagree on certain issues, you write very well and very logically, and I respect that. I actually enjoy reading your posts, as you present a view very different from mine, which gives me "brain food" to contemplate on.

Cheers,
John