Recommended reading

[Ray Pina]

On Killing, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

In an effort to combat "virgins studying sex," Gross man, in conjuction of research of past battles, spoke to thousands of veterans of American wars.

So far in chapter 1, it is being proven that only 15 to 20 percent of soldiers actively engaged the enemy, showing an ingrained reluctance to kill fellow humans. Many purposely fired high, many more not at all.

Many great first count references from soldiers in Vietnam, WWII and Nicaragua.

Later chapters will deal with how soldiers have been conditioned to kill, the effects of having killed and how media is conditioning youth in a similiar fashion..

So far, so good. Highyl recommend it.

[lunghushan]

how media is conditioning youth in a similiar fashion..

Yeah it really seems like the media has been preparing the country for war and conditioning the people for fighting for a while now. Not sure exactly why.

[SevenStar]

those are just the times we live in, man. everything from tv to games showcases MUCH more violence than was seen 20 years ago. look at the games "kung fu" and "karate champ" and compare them to "mortal kombat" and "killer instinct". remember the original metal gear for the NES? compare that to the metal gear solid series... I've got a game for the PS2 (can't think of the name) that takes place in feudal japan. with various samurai swords and katanas, you do a lot of blood spilling. in early games like shinobi and ninja gaiden, you wouldn't see anything close. Let's not start on the GTA series...

[lunghushan]

Yep.

First noticed this phenomena when I went to see movies in Encinitas. If the movie was good, but no fighting, people were like boo ...

If the movie had a ton of fighting, even a relatively sucky movie like Mission Impossible II, everybody was YAYYYY! In fact they clapped and yelled at the end of Mission Impossible II.

Primed for battle.

[BoulderDawg]

So far in chapter 1, it is being proven that only 15 to 20 percent of soldiers actively engaged the enemy, showing an ingrained reluctance to kill fellow humans. Many purposely fired high, many more not at all.



I think this is something that is ingrained into people since birth. And on the domestic side this is where the police have an advantage. Oh there are plenty of psychos out there that think nothing of killing someone. Such as that guy who was recently caught in the northeast. However there are still plenty of stupid criminals out there who thinks waving a gun at a cop is a good idea. The police (At least the majority) have been caught to fire first and ask questions later.

My motto is to never threaten with a gun. If you pull a gun out then come out blasting and shoot to kill.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah it really seems like the media has been preparing the country for war and conditioning the people for fighting for a while now. Not sure exactly why.

you're not sure why?

Um, a quick timeline of american history will tell you in a jiffy "why" you are all conditioned through media and government messages to be ok with violence and to be desensitized to death.


1775-1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain

1798-1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France

1801-1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli

1812-1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain

1813-1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Indians

1836 War of Texas Independence Texas vs. Mexico

1846-1848 Mexican War United States vs. Mexico

1861-1865 Civil War Union vs. Confederacy

1898 Spanish-American War United States vs. Spain

1914-1918 World War I Triple Alliance: Germany, Italy, and Austria-Hungary vs. Triple Entente: Britain, France, and Russia. The United States joined on the side of the Triple Entente in 1917.

1939-1945 World War II Axis Powers: Germany, Italy, Japan vs. Major Allied Powers: United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia

1950-1953 Korean War United States (as part of the United Nations) and South Korea vs. North Korea and Communist China

1960-1975 Vietnam War United States and South Vietnam vs. North Vietnam

1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion United States vs. Cuba

1983 Grenada United States Intervention

1989 US Invasion of Panama
United States vs. Panama

1990-1991 Persian Gulf War
United States and Coalition Forces vs. Iraq

1995-1996 Intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina United States as part of NATO acted peacekeepers in former Yugoslavia

2003 Invasion of Iraq
United States and Coalition Forces vs. Iraq


So there it is and this doesn't include any of the proxy wars or covert operations that have occured in the cold war. In essence, america has always been at war in some fashion. It's how your country exists. Take a listen to Ike Eisenhowers closing of his presidency speech and listen how he warns about the path that is being taken and the bolstering of americas military industrila complex.

There is not a single congressional district that does not have a plant, R&D center, distribution centre or some other such outfit that is not dedicated to the support of americas military industry. Some of the largest companies are in essence arms dealers or war support companies such as the Carlyle group, Brown and Root, Halliburton and many others.

Of course it is desirable that all of you be good soldiers cause it is not going to end for you....until you stop it at a grass roots level.

just remember, when and if the american people have the will to take back their government and their country from the hands of the powers that be, that life will no longer be so easy and you will no longer get the leisure of being ignorant to the real suffering in the world.

anyway, just saying america.

[charyuop]

I haven't lived in the US for long time (only 5 years), but by what I see it is all a huge conditioning. They start from very young age with pledge of alligiance and national anthem in every occasion. They build a psycological slavery to the Nation making you thing that nothing is more important than that. Later on it is enough to listen the news and how they picture certain situations, making of the people XXX the bad guy. 1+1=2, the attachment that they conditioned to the flag+the hate for the bad guy makes the rest.

The sad thing is that I do not remember a war which was not carried out because of economical gain, but unfortunately it is always masked as "let's go help those poor people...". Exemples (and many time it is not only USA, but Europe guilty equally)?

World War II. Germany in a way was forced by USA to start the war, because it was basically reduced to pure hunger because of the huge amount of money they had to pay because of penalties from WWI. But that was ok, war was let going on for years and the poor innocents dying were not important, till the moment that appeared clear that Germany was about to conquer all Europe thus becoming a huge economical power. Please don't mention Pearl Harbour, sad episode, but in my opinion in advanced planned. In Europe history happened more times that countries needed their opponent to start a war to be able to count on allies army help, what best then placing a huge military force on the border waiting for the opponent to lose control and attack?

Yugoslavia. How many death? How many years before an intervention because there was no economical interest...except the help to rebuild, of course to do that they needed more distruction....so what better than wait?

Iraq. Oil, Oil, Oil...First the war was pushed because Iraq had mass destructive weapons, after it came out it was not true we do it because they need democracy. Saddam Hussain was killing too many people and we could not stay there and watch. Well...maybe not everyone remembers one thing. Gulf War!!! Do you know what happened after Gulf War was over? UN and USA agreed on placing an embargo on Iraq. Nothing could go into Iraq, not even medicine. Stock of even simple medicines like penicelline ran out quickly. I am sure you will be able to find in internet how many kids and old people died in all these years because of lack of medicines.


Wow....sorry I just had to vent it :)

[lunghushan]

Bottom line is ... there is not really enough death. Humans are destroying the planet with too many fricking people.

I'm not condoning needless violence, just saying we could use more birth control.

Overall I'm a big fan of China. On the one hand, their repressiveness is extremely bad. On the other hand, with the 1 child policy, they are actually moving for population control in a big way.

And now they're promoting martial arts as well. What's not to like? I think I might go visit China someday, something I never would have considered 20 or so years ago.

As for the U.S. and war, the U.S. obviously has an agenda, which is to make the rest of the world like the U.S.

I'm not particularly against that, even though it is boring, because without that, there would still be kings and queens, serfs and peasants, and women would have much fewer rights.

So if you are really against the U.S., consider the alternative, which is that things would be the way they were 100-200 years ago, with kings and queens in power and nobility, with limited economic mobility, with limited education, and with women subservient to men.

Do you really want to go back to that? No, right?

[PangQuan]

hell just look at the history of the entire world in nearly any civilization during almost any time period


people are always violent, its always in abundance, its always flaunted, and its always in a way that the time period demands it to be.

we are human, we kill, and we are violent. we always were and we always will be.

[lunghushan]

hell just look at the history of the entire world in nearly any civilization during almost any time period


people are always violent, its always in abundance, its always flaunted, and its always in a way that the time period demands it to be.

we are human, we kill, and we are violent. we always were and we always will be.

Yeah, anybody complaining about violence now, is being kindof stupid. Because the world used to be a much more violent place for humans, and there was a lot more disease.

In fact, the disease and violence kept the population in check for thousands of years.

But since we've had less violence, and less disease, the population has exploded in the past 300 or so years. There are more people now than ever before. Life expectancies are higher than ever before.

It's a fricking mess. So bottom line is, we should be looking for birth control methods.

[David Jamieson]

hell just look at the history of the entire world in nearly any civilization during almost any time period


people are always violent, its always in abundance, its always flaunted, and its always in a way that the time period demands it to be.

we are human, we kill, and we are violent. we always were and we always will be.

dude, you are trying to fit in. lol

look at canada, it was debated into existance. people are not always violent unless pushed into it, but not everyone is violent and certainly there are not a lot of countries taht are even capable of making war on the scale that america is and a few others. very few others.

and lunghushan, before you get too rah rah about Chinas one child policy, think about all the females that are abandoned and killed because of this policy. think of the enforced abortions and think that despite of it, the country is still the most populated country on the planet, followed by India. the one child policy is an act of desperation more than anything and there have been a lot of greivous actions and errors because of it on the part of a people that favours a male heir and a government that goes to extremes to uphold their edict.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, sorry David, but I'm not particularly worried about all that stuff.

Because the alternative is death for the entire species shortly if we destroy the environment.

[PangQuan]

dont get me wrong, im not saying everyone is violent, nor every culture, however even if a culture is what you would consider non violent, take that same culture and i can garantee you can find very violent individuals within it.

one bad apple is all it takes. in any large congregation of humans there is always at least one who is violent by nature.

i dont know what you mean that i am trying to fit in. this is just an observation ive made.

im not trying to "lay down the law" this is just my opinion.

the town i grew up in was labeld the best place in the usa to raise your children.

they didnt see the violent underbelly of that small town like i did...

[lunghushan]

Well things don't just flip on a dime.

If you believe humans evolved, or that they didn't have technology for many thousands or tens of thousands of years (which is the generally accepted theory), then how did they survive with bears, lions, wild animals and all that?

They were violent. They hunted. They were aggressive.

My dad hunted. His dad hunted. His dad hunted, on and on.

People were violent. That is just the way it was.

So suddenly, everybody says that violence is bad, there is no outlet for the natural instinct, and we lock up everybody who is violent.

????

Makes absolutely no sense at all. I think if we were smart we'd have more outlets like we do, like competitive sports, martial arts and things like that.

Let's face it. A lot of the people we lock up now for getting into fights and stuff, would probably have been the most respected warriors, warlords and kings 400 years ago and before.

[Wood Dragon]

World War II. Germany in a way was forced by USA to start the war, because it was basically reduced to pure hunger because of the huge amount of money they had to pay because of penalties from WWI.

That was a joke, right?

[David Jamieson]

omg, a nazi sympathizer. lol I didn't even read that!

ok, history 101, germany started the war by being aggresively expansionist, the USA didn't enter until 2 years in when the japanese, in the middle of negotiations, attacked peral harbour an dthat was the impetus for america joining. prior to that the only involvemnet was in help financially and supply wise with keeping england from getting their asses completely kicked by germany.

[lunghushan]

Ummm ... Germany in financial ruin and depression with huge stagflation, and a population full of people bitter at losing WWI, was breeding ground for Nazi party to come to power, and with that, the entire expansion.

Japan ... with hopes of empire, and finding its oil supplies being threatened of being cut off by the U.S., pounded Pearl Harbor.

Not saying either one was right ... in fact it is obvious they both were stupid and miscalculated the enemy.

[Radhnoti]

Let's just hope we get an alien invasion or zombie apocolypse soon, or the U.S. will have to turn it's attention on the next enemy...the pacifist neighbor to the north that was "debated into existance" and chooses not to field an army. I'm fairly certain the nuclear option will be exercised with Quebec...
;)

[Ray Pina]

we are human, we kill, and we are violent. we always were and we always will be.


This book actually paint a different light, saying we are preprogrammed against killing our own kind. Lots of numbers, facts and first hand accounts of soldiers who said the number one problem in was was getting soldiers to fire their weapons.

[CoRWiN]

This book actually paint a different light, saying we are preprogrammed against killing our own kind. Lots of numbers, facts and first hand accounts of soldiers who said the number one problem in was was getting soldiers to fire their weapons.

This is the first interesting thing posted on this entire thread.

Since this thread started with a recommended reading, i'm curious what kind of reading everyone is doing that makes them come to their conclusions, such as Overpopulation, American culture brainwashing, etc. etc.

For overpopulation i agree, we do have a problem. But i don't think i see it in the same light as lung. Check out the Book "Ishmael" you'll eat it up. I think that author has the right idea about our current overpopulation problem.

And in terms of history, jesus where do u guys get this stuff. Read Paul Johnson's "Modern times". It begins pre-WWI and offers what i feel to be a fairly complete interpretation for history up to 1980's.

And specifically on Nazi's read "Most Daring Commando" by Otto Skorzeny. Skorzeny was the Nazi commando that saved Mussolini. The story is his account of WWII, including motivations for his soliders and many insights to the conflict.

[Ray Pina]

Most Daring Commandos is next on my list, thanks. Sounds good.

[yenhoi]

So America is evil because it is best at doing what everyone else is also doing?

[Scott R. Brown]

Nothing nefarious should be concluded regarding conditioning. It is part of life. It is universal for all people regardless of their culture, country, race, religion, etc. All learning is a form of conditioning. Therefore, all of our personal attitudes and beliefs are affected by our conditioning/learning.

In fact, we generally only consider something conditioning if it disagrees with our present conditioning, but we were conditioned to believe that as well.

If you don’t believe me then it demonstrates the effectiveness of your conditioning. You are perfectly conditioned when you cannot perceive you have been conditioned.


;)

[lunghushan]

So America is evil because it is best at doing what everyone else is also doing?

Actually the U.S. isn't evil. What other empire or superpower in history has ever helped out the enemy rebuild?

What other empire or superpower in history hasn't required tribute of the fallen countries, or made slaves of their population?

If anything, the U.S. is too nice to its enemies. If it were me, I'd be demanding tribute, giving the soldiers land in the invading countries, letting them rape and pillage, take spoils of war, etc. etc.

That's the way it's SUPPOSED to be. None of this nice stuff.

Honestly I think the reason everybody hates the U.S. is that the U.S. is too nice and is showing weakness.

I mean, France gets in our face? Sanctions, plain and simple. But no ... we don't do a darn thing. We are nice to them.

Iraq ... we go over there, free them from a dictator, and it blows up in our faces. We should have taken them over, killed off the male population, and given the land and women to the soldiers. But no ... we try to create an entire new country.

See ... that's why everybody hates us. Because it's like we're not honest. People don't respect people who are nice. They think there must be something wrong with them.

Look at the economics of the U.S. The U.S. is in DEBT up to its eyeballs. When is a superpower in DEBT? A superpower should be demanding tribute of all the little peon countries without decent armies. But NO ... we are in huge debt.