How old is the Jab?

[SifuAbel]

I got into a discussion, over at a certain web site that will remain nameless, about when the jab was born. One, lets say not so bright, individual claimed that the jab did not exist until the middle ages with the introduction of fencing. I find this to be the most skewed and ass over head line of thinking yet to be presented at that certain web site not to be mentioned.

Am I led to believe that in the million years we have been somewhat human and at least in the last 10,000 years of known history that not one person figured out how to straight punch with the front hand?

If there was any time for Ocam's razor to be summoned it is now. What is most probable? That sometime in the last 1,000,000 years or only the last 400 did man develop enough motor skills to punch with the front hand. :rolleyes:

Please let me have your thoughts.

[sunfist]

Firstly, they are probably mistakenly referring to the rennaisance and particularly post rennaisance methods of fencing.

I guess a jab can be defined by two things, in terms of being strictly a punch with the leading fist, then its pretty much a no brainer. However the jab could also said to be defined by usage, being distinctive insomuch as it is usually designed to protect the integrity of your defence from an opponent whos trying to close rather than acheive a KO by itself (although there are certainly fighters who have used it in such a way). This sort of strategic use of the jab could indeed be said to date to when we first started applying gentlemanly rules in our combat, such as swordplay, as opposed to a battlefield mindset. But even then I would agree that someone, somewhere, probably did it before, be it the greeks in pankration or whatever.

[Ben Gash]

A straight hand punch with the lead hand isn't by definition a jab. All chinese longarm styles make heavy use of a lead hand straight arm punch, but I'm sure many practioners would be insulted if you accused them of jabbing.
A jab implies a quick, probing attack with no follow through, and is almost exclusive to western boxing. It kind of makes sense to imply that it has it's origins in renaissance swordsmanship, but I doubt it really. As an aside, has anyone else found that Gim/Jian practice really helps your straight punching?

[Ben Gash]

same time, same points :)

[sunfist]

great minds...

[TenTigers]

opening move in Tan-tuie.

[David Jamieson]

well, who knows.

Did you know that in Native american cultures, hitting someone with your fists at all was an alien concept to them for the most part until the arrival of europeans.

Prior to this, straight up feats of strength and wrestling were exclusively used to have contests and settle disputes.

so "the jab" as a defined term wrapped around a simple straight lead hand punch probably is more recent than we think although the actual actio of jabbing with the fist has been around for as long as it has been since the first guy did it.

But overall, I agree, it is silly to attribute something to something based on teh categorization and definition of it. Most things pre-exist their categories and definitions with a few exceptions.

[Royal Dragon]

H0mo Sapiens 1.0 first came to be about 100,00 years ago, and were physically identical to us but lacked our intelligence. The "super" intelligence we know today kicked in about 35,000 years ago.

There are tribes of primitive hunter gatherers today that live just as man did 35,000 years ago. One of the biggest pass times are basic gymnastics, and wrestling. Striking is almost nonexistent, and consists mostly of open handed cracks to the face as set ups for takedowns.

My guess is you see beating with some sort of clubs before punching.

The Jab was probably developed in English Boxing, and is more recent

[Pork Chop]

I don't think the jab was too popular until Daniel Mendoza in the late 1700s.

I have a big book on the history of bare knuckle boxing, but this article gives a lot of good info:

http://www.bnmaa.co.uk/?Page=Boxing

I think Roman and Greek boxing tended to utilize different punches than those we see today like overhand closed-fist chops and back fists.

The other thing about boxing is that it seems every few years someone re-invents something. As awkward as some older boxers look in ancient footage (see Harry Greb), there were other fighters who were very "modern" by comparison.

[SifuAbel]

H0mo Sapiens 1.0 first came to be about 100,00 years ago, and were physically identical to us but lacked our intelligence. The "super" intelligence we know today kicked in about 35,000 years ago.

There are tribes of primitive hunter gatherers today that live just as man did 35,000 years ago. One of the biggest pass times are basic gymnastics, and wrestling. Striking is almost nonexistent, and consists mostly of open handed cracks to the face as set ups for takedowns.

My guess is you see beating with some sort of clubs before punching.

The Jab was probably developed in English Boxing, and is more recent

And you know this? How? What tribes? It doesn't take super intelligence to crack sombody over the face with your knuckles. Its just not probable that something like a jab couldn't or hasn't been seen until modern times. It is definately not rocket science.

[Pork Chop]

There's a difference between a jab and a straight lead.
Prior to Mendoza the straight lead was a power shot.
Mendoza was one of the first to make it a noncommitted shot to set up other stuff.
I'm sure the straight lead was used from the beginning of time- as it's very instinctual to put your power hand in front.

[SifuAbel]

It s matter of time and experience. Cognatively speaking there is no difference between us and bronze age people. Set off a couple of nukes and see how fast everything goes cave man again.

If you fight with your fists at all, Eventually you will develop all diffenet types of tactics. Again, we are talking about human bio-mechanics not external technology.

300 years is still way too rescent.

[Royal Dragon]

And you know this? How? What tribes?

Reply]
I was watchig footage of the Zowie tribe in the Amazons on discovery channel, and I payed close attention to the tactics they used during thier wrestling matches. Incedentally, both men and women wrestle equally in that tribe.

The Zowie get down on all fors, and sort of bear craw in a circle around eachother looking for the right time to engage. A jab is not practical from this position.

>>It doesn't take super intelligence to crack sombody over the face with your knuckles. Its just not probable that something like a jab couldn't or hasn't been seen until modern times. It is definately not rocket science

Reply]
No, I'm just pointing a referance. True modern man is only 35,000 years old, and is based on H0mo saipeans that evolved 100,000 years ago. Same physical bodies, but improved CPU

[PangQuan]

I got into a discussion, over at a certain web site that will remain nameless, about when the jab was born. One, lets say not so bright, individual claimed that the jab did not exist until the middle ages with the introduction of fencing. I find this to be the most skewed and ass over head line of thinking yet to be presented at that certain web site not to be mentioned.

Am I led to believe that in the million years we have been somewhat human and at least in the last 10,000 years of known history that not one person figured out how to straight punch with the front hand?

If there was any time for Ocam's razor to be summoned it is now. What is most probable? That sometime in the last 1,000,000 years or only the last 400 did man develop enough motor skills to punch with the front hand. :rolleyes:

Please let me have your thoughts.

my feelings are this:

we can not possibly pin point the exact time a jab was first used.

i would be so bold as to say the jab has been around nearly if no as long as the punch....only makes sense...

[Ben Gash]

And yet my style has no jab at all for entirely practical reasons.

[SifuAbel]

And you know this? How? What tribes?

No, I'm just pointing a referance. True modern man is only 35,000 years old, and is based on H0mo saipeans that evolved 100,000 years ago. Same physical bodies, but improved CPU

I dunno. Some of these guys in the ring seem to still be running on 386. :rolleyes:

So it took 34,700 years to figure out how to punch with the lead hand?

You are assuming that because an amazon tribe used ritual wrestling that this applys to all men everywhere at all points in time.

[lkfmdc]

History (and historical documents) are our friends :D

Greek boxing consisted of the lead hand being used to defend (parry and shield) with the rear hand being used to swing and chop (like a hammer fist). Very little straight punching. This is documented and supported by numerous contemporary accounts and artwork

Boxing in England, when "revived" was primarily a swing and chop art. The chop, as well as the "pivot blow" (spin back fist!) was made illegal around 1700 or so... still, swinging and hooking were more prevelent than straight blows...

In addition, early bare knuckle boxing, like many TMA, involved switching leads. ONe minute left lead, another right lead... this was also how many schools of fencing were practiced at the time

The evolution of the dueling sword and the adoption of a single stance and thrust strategy resulted in a fundamental change in how fighting was done. More simply, those fencers that switched leads either switched to a single lead or DIED... very little room for argument about "effectiveness" in live blade sword dueling ;)

This change in fencing influenced bare knuckle boxing, where, as already cited, Mendoza applied the same concepts to the fist and created the "jab"...

Sorry, but this is all well known in hopology and well documented

[Ben Gash]

Prior to it's cross pollination with western boxing Savate didn't use closed fist strikes to the face. The same is true to an extent with Muay Thai. Kung Fu traditionally emphasises punches to the body.
Also, to go back right to the start of this thread, a lead hand punch is not necessarily a jab.

[Royal Dragon]

So are we saying that the use of weapons, and sheild influnace empty hand fighting?

The arm that was once used to controll a shield, now became the lead covering hand even when a sheild was not there, and then an extension of that is what the jab developed out of?

It makes sense when you think about it.

The jab probably goes back to Roman times, when disarmed, disheilded soldiers had to continue on fighting (till they got hacked to bits anyway)

[lkfmdc]

The primary unarmed method of a warrior is a grappling art... you aren't going to box a guy with a sword... you MIGHT, and it's a gamble, wrestle them and control their weapon hand...

Classical jiu jitsu was the unarmed art of the Samurai, fixated with wrist grabs, arm controls and freeing the hand from said holds

The Mongolians emplyed "Cilnem" a combat form of wrestling similar in some ways to Sumo!

Classical Greek thinkers felt that upright standing wrestling was good for combat but that free style with ground work was not suitable for combat training..

Many feel Savate evolved from the necessity to kick when the hands were engaged in retaining your weapon and immobilizing your opponent's. Think of the classic "locked swords" position. Early Savate was LOW kicks to the groin, shin, feet and knees

[unkokusai]

Please let me have your thoughts.



My thoughts are that you got into an argument somewhere else and didn't like the fact that someone was disagreeing with you, so you brought it over here where that person couldn't respond and you could try to make yourself feel better by saying, "Hey guys, I'm right! Right? Right?" :rolleyes:



Not working out exactly as you'd hoped here either. Oh well...

[IronFist]

Didn't oldschool boxing use that upside-down fist stance? Was there a jab from that on-guard position?

[WinterPalm]

The points made about early h0mo sapiens are pretty much false.
The correct date is closer to 130,000 years ago...this date means that we now have fossil evidence that suggests these were BIOLOGICALLY modern h0mo sapiens. Our biology has not changed since this early time. Our culture has definately adapted and grown; but the ability for humans to learn and think is no different then as it is now. Only difference being that we now stand on the shoulders of giants and back in the day (130,000 yrs ago) we had to start from scratch. We are much smarter and intelligent due to the ability to grasp and understand complex arrangements of symbols, but the ability to do this is no better or worse than back in the day. Only difference is exposure to what came before and more refined ways of thinking and manipulating abstract symbols.

As all humans are equal in this biological sense, there can be no primitive. For to suggest that one is primitive suggests that another is modern and this usually implies a grading scale...this is inherently racist and old fashioned. A concept that may help is historical particularism...it's been around since the 1930's and states that every social group or society, culture, human cluster, exists within its own unique historical past, present, and future and cannot be compared to any other.

Sorry for the rant but this is the discipline I've spent a good amount of time researching and hope to work within.

In terms of the jab I can't add anything other than if it works for you use it! Or a HIGH KICK TO THE HEAD.

[Pork Chop]

Didn't oldschool boxing use that upside-down fist stance? Was there a jab from that on-guard position?

yeah, but that old school stance was a lot more dynamic than you might be thinking, the defense was a lot more active than a lot of today's stuff. Modern boxing gloves take up a lot more space than a bare fist so your defense can be a lot more static- shelling's a more viable tactic when wearing gloves.
There's a cool clip of harry greb with his active defense on his website. It's pretty cool, but probably odd to people expecting today's boxing style, and it looks a lil like bak mei meets muay thai (elbows).

there were multiple jabs from that old on-guard position, some of them being "upside down" jabs, others using a ton of "corkscrew" type action (i imagine to facilitate sliding over and through a parry).

[Golden Arms]

Are you guys seriously telling me nobody in the long history of martial arts though of using the Biu Sau/Finger Spear technique to the eyes as a jab? If you have trained hands, its not risky, especially without a large amount of power behind it, doesnt need to be very comitted and works great for setting up following techniques whether it lands or not. :eek: Look at the snake in Hung for example, or even some leopard technique and tell me that nobody was smart enough to figure you could aim them at the eyes and then work off that setup.

[unkokusai]

As all humans are equal in this biological sense, there can be no primitive. For to suggest that one is primitive suggests that another is modern and this usually implies a grading scale...this is inherently racist and old fashioned.


"Racist"? Um...against what race? :confused:

[PangQuan]

Are you guys seriously telling me nobody in the long history of martial arts though of using the Biu Sau/Finger Spear technique to the eyes as a jab? If you have trained hands, its not risky, especially without a large amount of power behind it, doesnt need to be very comitted and works great for setting up following techniques whether it lands or not. :eek: Look at the snake in Hung for example, or even some leopard technique and tell me that nobody was smart enough to figure you could aim them at the eyes and then work off that setup.

word

it may not have been highly used or taught, but i think great masters of the past my have had enough creativity, common sense, and time, to have at least one time at some point used a punch that would highly resemble a jab.

but of course people like to go based of of RECORDS, and we all know that records dont mean sh!t other than that was the first time it was RECORDED.

the world was round long before it was recorded so...

[Golden Arms]

Lung..who exactly told you what techniques are supposed to be used for? One of the basics of fighting is that you use whatever tools you have for whatever works for you, and the 4 finger biu fits into an eye socket just fine among other targets. That whole thinking of "this is used for this" is a big thorn in the side of martial artist in my opinion. If you just train the hands, do a lot of heavy bag work, partner drills, etc, you will find what works for you. That is the only rule I would think..what works well.

[lunghushan]

Lung..who exactly told you what techniques are supposed to be used for? One of the basics of fighting is that you use whatever tools you have for whatever works for you, and the 4 finger biu fits into an eye socket just fine among other targets. That whole thinking of "this is used for this" is a big thorn in the side of martial artist in my opinion. If you just train the hands, do a lot of heavy bag work, partner drills, etc, you will find what works for you. That is the only rule I would think..what works well.

Okay, whatever. The reason I took down the post was because it was obvious you guys would argue. And the only way I can respond is by giving out another technique which shouldn't be posted here.

[Vajramusti]

using a lead hand for a straight motion of some kind is old and ageless- but the foundation of the contemporary western boxer's jab can be seen in the work of gentleman Jim Corbett who lifted John L Sullivan's title....around 1892-no film of that exists that I know of... but ther is brief clip of Corbett and Fitzimmons and their jabs.

joy chaudhuri

[Golden Arms]

I am not saying your post doesnt have merit, just saying that, at least from the teachers I have learned from, they all had in common that technique is conceptual, and not rigid as to where it goes. If you limited a boxers right cross to the chin as a target, then dempsey wouldnt have been punching guys with the same punch in the heart or solar plexus. As long as the body mechanics are sound, technique should go wherever the opening presents itself. Do you agree?

[PangQuan]

as in when sifu gives me a new technique.

sometimes i will say "sifu, should i strike here, or here"

then he will say "that be ok"

[Royal Dragon]

My guess is the jab became prevelant when sports that restricted techniques to only punching became prevelant.

[David Jamieson]

actually...Ima gonna go with Rudy's assessment.

Here's why. There is artwork from the minoan civilization, uncovered with teh akrotiri site in teh mediterranean that shows...well fancy that, Two youths boxing!

And not only that, but a jab is being thrown.

so there goes the whole modern idea right down the toilet.

Here's the truth boys, There is nothing new under the sun.

here's the pic and thanks for coming out. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/357px-NAMA_Akrotiri_2.jpg

rudy you ARE right. :p

[Royal Dragon]

Wel I'll be Horn Swaggled!

[David Jamieson]

Wel I'll be Horn Swaggled!

Dude, you'll be going elsewhere for that kind of action because there is no way in hell I am gonna swaggle no horn no how not yours or any other horn bearing dude looking for some swaggling. :p

[Royal Dragon]

I bet My Russain Chick would accomodate me!!

[Ben Gash]

Um, we know the Greeks boxed, using gloves that actually increased damage. I can't see the jab in that picture though :confused: The guy actively punching is using a cross, and who knows what the other guy's doing, but I'm guessing from the fact that his hand has stayed out and is past the other guy's head it wasn't a jab.

[Ben Gash]

We also know that Alexander the Great was worried that boxing was diminishing true combat skills, so there really is nothing new under the sun!!! :D

[David Jamieson]

a cross is not thrown from the lead. the punch illustrated shows a lead straight punch a.k.a a jab.

a cross is generally not thrown from a lead.cross and uppercut come off the back leg and utilize the hip generation of force.

jab and hooks come off the lead for the most part.

of course, these are not hard and fast rules, but they generally hold true to boxing.

[Lam Tong Long]

Late arrival, sorry...

Through all this conjecture about ancient civilisations and stuff one key factor is being missed: DEFINITION.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jab
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=42308&dict=CALD
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jab

This definition is pretty much identical for all dictionnaries that I checked.

So where does it leave us?

If we are talking about the first definition it means any "quick, sharp or sudden" blow, then the jab has existed forever (-ish). And Rudy would be right.

If we are referencing the TECHNIQUE (ie that taken from definition which explicitly mentions BOXING) then we can only call it a jab so far as it was part of boxing.

The same way a technique would only really be 'gwa choy', for example, if it was performed in line with what a particular art (eg. CLF in this case) deemed appropriate.

So therefore by the boxing related definition it has only existed as long as boxing has used it (since that is a parameter of the definition). And Rudy is wrong.

This really is one of the most pointless arguments. Totally arguing over semantics.

[Royal Dragon]

This really is one of the most pointless arguments. Totally arguing over semantics

Reply]
Around here, sometimes those are the most active threads!

[PangQuan]

there is the technicality

if talking about a boxing jab, that jab is ONLY a boxing jab, but not the ground rule for ALL jabs. its just how a BOXING jab is thrown.

jab is just a quick snappy punch with a fast return....no matter what you wanna call it.

[WinterPalm]

"Racist"? Um...against what race? :confused:

Whichever 'race' in question. Even the term race is pretty worthless outside of a false sense of security. For instance, you could label an Indian man and an African man BLACK or negro, or even African American...but they are quite dissimilar.

Royal Dragon mentioned primitive Hunter/gatherers...so the San bushmen would be one.

Do you understand now?

[David Jamieson]

sweet jesus.

short = shortest distance to target ergo off the lead leg. ultimately in boxing, "slow" punches are unheard of, so that is kind of a silly thing to say "short and quick" all punches should be short and quick and shocking.

secondly, the picture i posted from one of the most ancient civilizations the earth has had, shows "boxing". "boxing" as a competitive sport has been around a lot longer than marquis of queensbury rules and had many variations.

if you go to any boxing club, you will be shown what technically a jab is.

It is a straight punch thrown from the lead leg. It is best thrown at range and sometimes it is used as a range checker and sometimes as incoming to cover a cross or a hook that will follow in the combo. Uppercuts are virtually always thrown from the inside because they are whatr's called a very short technique.

man, there's only really four punches in boxing. Different styles for throwing them and sometimes different idea of how to throw them but they will always be jab,cross, hook and uppercut.

not every punch is a jab. and dictionaries are notr reliable sources of information on how technique is carried out. they are a reference for only the word.

[David Jamieson]

Whichever 'race' in question. Even the term race is pretty worthless outside of a false sense of security. For instance, you could label an Indian man and an African man BLACK or negro, or even African American...but they are quite dissimilar.

Royal Dragon mentioned primitive Hunter/gatherers...so the San bushmen would be one.

Do you understand now?


do you mean a slurpee indian or a casino indian? :p

[KC Elbows]

It is a bit difficult to believe that no one jabbed before the period suggested, unless one limits jabbing to a strict boxing definition of it, and even then, it's a bit difficult to buy. I mean, one could say that Minoan art is not showing a jab, but, if they were fighting with that, it is hard to accept that they never once would have done it quickly and tentatively/probing-like.

Congratulations, David, you win the prize for best use of minoan boy art. Again.

[lunghushan]

Actually there are some racial differences that seem to pertain to martial arts.

For example, I was practicing with a Chinese guy the other day, and he was blocking my hand, and in doing so, he wiped my hand across his face.

Now, with the normal big nosed caucasian, that would have hurt a heck of a lot. But for some reason he has this flatter, stubby Chinese nose, and it just kindof went over it without hurting him at all. :eek:

Also, blacks it is well known have higher levels of testosterone than other races, which has been linked to the higher levels of melanin pigments, which could explain some of their more aggressive tendencies and higher sex drive.

So race is not just a number, so to speak.

[David Jamieson]

It is a bit difficult to believe that no one jabbed before the period suggested, unless one limits jabbing to a strict boxing definition of it, and even then, it's a bit difficult to buy. I mean, one could say that Minoan art is not showing a jab, but, if they were fighting with that, it is hard to accept that they never once would have done it quickly and tentatively/probing-like.

Congratulations, David, you win the prize for best use of minoan boy art. Again.

unfortunately, later on in the fresco, they start blowing each other and doing some weird ass stuff with a bull's phallus.

but hey, what can you say about the ancients. Big pack of h0m0s realy weren't they? lol

[unkokusai]

Actually there are some racial differences that seem to pertain to martial arts.

For example, I was practicing with a Chinese guy the other day, and he was blocking my hand, and in doing so, he wiped my hand across his face.

Now, with the normal big nosed caucasian, that would have hurt a heck of a lot. But for some reason he has this flatter, stubby Chinese nose, and it just kindof went over it without hurting him at all. :eek:

Also, blacks it is well known have higher levels of testosterone than other races, which has been linked to the higher levels of melanin pigments, which could explain some of their more aggressive tendencies and higher sex drive.

So race is not just a number, so to speak.


Holy crap! :eek: WTF?! That is some of the most offensively stupid **** I've read in quite some time! :mad:

[KC Elbows]

Actually there are some racial differences that seem to pertain to martial arts.

For example, I was practicing with a Chinese guy the other day, and he was blocking my hand, and in doing so, he wiped my hand across his face.

Now, with the normal big nosed caucasian, that would have hurt a heck of a lot. But for some reason he has this flatter, stubby Chinese nose, and it just kindof went over it without hurting him at all. :eek:

Also, blacks it is well known have higher levels of testosterone than other races, which has been linked to the higher levels of melanin pigments, which could explain some of their more aggressive tendencies and higher sex drive.

So race is not just a number, so to speak.

One could point out that there is no "black" race, that there are actually a large number of groups with dark skin and virtually nothing else genetically in common.

I just read a very good article about the question of whether there actually are "manchu" in any definitive sense. The article posits that the distinction between manchu and han was historically more political than factual, that during the qing, the idea that there was a difference was not necessarily in the mainstream(considering that many of the qing emporers had han parentage), and the racial card only came heavily into play when the qing political machine was weak, so that saying "they(the manchu we've been breeding with for ages) aren't like us!" was more a tool for leveraging the people than an ethnic truth. By this time, the Manchu language was pretty much dead, there was no one set of customs that one could call Manchu that most Manchu lived by.

On the flip side, when the Manchu needed to leverage their people earlier in the dynasty, they simply made an artificial line in the sand, so to speak, that said, we are Manchu, you are the conquered Han, but the fact was, substantial numbers of those considered Manchu by this political division were actually Han.

Back to the example of "black", I've met very few black americans who weren't Scottish.

[Lam Tong Long]

ultimately in boxing, "slow" punches are unheard of

All relative. Is a jab quicker than a hook? Yadda, yadda....erm yes, in a nut shell.


the picture i posted from one of the most ancient civilizations the earth has had, shows "boxing". "boxing" as a competitive sport has been around a lot longer than marquis of queensbury rules and had many variations.

Wrong. Boxing IS the sport which was formalised with the Marquis of Queensbury rules. Or is CMA 'boxing' as well? LOL.


if you go to any boxing club, you will be shown what technically a jab is.

Wow, you assume no one has boxed here? And that is only a BOXING jab. If someone showed me any thrusting motion with the fist that would be a 'jab' too. But it wouldn't look like the one that I was shown if the guys at the boxing club showed me would it?


It is a straight punch thrown from the lead leg.

Wrong. Watch Bernard Hopkins jab from the rear leg. Or watch Muhammed Ali 'jab' George Forman in the Rumble with the rear hand.


not every punch is a jab. and dictionaries are notr reliable sources of information on how technique is carried out. they are a reference for only the word.

Who said they were? Since these guys are 'debating' whether a cylinder is 'round' they should have some idea about which SPECIFIC instance of 'jab' that they are discussing.

In fact, scratch all of that because I was reading the original thread on "the not to be named site" and it's just a few rounds of Rudy trolling under several different usernames.

[unkokusai]

Whichever 'race' in question. Even the term race is pretty worthless outside of a false sense of security. For instance, you could label an Indian man and an African man BLACK or negro, or even African American...but they are quite dissimilar.

Royal Dragon mentioned primitive Hunter/gatherers...so the San bushmen would be one.

Do you understand now?


No. The comparison between earlier humans and later humans was being discussed, there was no particular race in question other than the human race. The word "racist" is too often misused even to the extent that it can be applied.

If you want to see racism, take a look at lunghushan's post above. That is some truly offensive racism right there.

[lunghushan]

If you want to see racism, take a look at lunghushan's post above. That is some truly offensive racism right there.

Well it's true, bozo. I for one would rather have the Chinese nose. I think a lot of blacks have a flatter nose, too. It would help out a lot in sparring.

If you overlook the obvious truths about race, then you don't solve any problems. The blacks and higher testosterone thing has been shown to be true in multiple studies and has many implications even for health. Hormone levels have been shown to be a problem for some types of diseases.

You can't treat every race, or even every person, the same, as medical care is finding out.

[lunghushan]

Basically the bottom line is, races are like different types of dogs.

Dogs are all the same species and can interbreed, but they don't all look the same, and do not act all the same.

Same thing with humans. Not as pronounced a difference, but the same thing.

[unkokusai]

Well it's true, bozo.


I used to just think you were an idiot, now I see you are a truly reprehensible piece of trash.:mad:

[David Jamieson]

All relative. Is a jab quicker than a hook? Yadda, yadda....erm yes, in a nut shell.



Wrong. Boxing IS the sport which was formalised with the Marquis of Queensbury rules. Or is CMA 'boxing' as well? LOL.



Wow, you assume no one has boxed here? And that is only a BOXING jab. If someone showed me any thrusting motion with the fist that would be a 'jab' too. But it wouldn't look like the one that I was shown if the guys at the boxing club showed me would it?



Wrong. Watch Bernard Hopkins jab from the rear leg. Or watch Muhammed Ali 'jab' George Forman in the Rumble with the rear hand.



Who said they were? Since these guys are 'debating' whether a cylinder is 'round' they should have some idea about which SPECIFIC instance of 'jab' that they are discussing.

In fact, scratch all of that because I was reading the original thread on "the not to be named site" and it's just a few rounds of Rudy trolling under several different usernames.

dude, reading comprehension is important and your absolutes are the only thing that is "wrong". lol

[lunghushan]

I used to just think you were an idiot, now I see you are a truly reprehensible piece of trash.:mad:

Well at least you're finally being honest. That gets you off my ignore list. :)

Bottom line is, in our politically correct culture, it is actually harmful for people's health.

Men and women are not the same, especially from a health perspective. To treat them the same, would be very bad. They don't even have all the same body parts.

The races are also different. To ignore that fact can cause a lot of problems. From a health perspective, you cannot treat them the same.

[David Jamieson]

also, in re: origin of the word

[Origin: 1300–50; ME box a blow, boxen to beat, of uncert. orig.]

so unless the marquis of queensbury was around 400 or so years before he was born, I would say that you need to review your source.

and think again about that back leg thing you're talking about. I said "generally" and in the general sense, it is correct to state that a jab comes off the lead side. and yes, I'm going to assume you haven't boxed because i have and your info is merely argumentative and mostly incorrect.

thanks though for throwing more confusion into it.

[David Jamieson]

as well, I would say that "chaun fa" is pretty much as close to "boxing" as you can get as far as it is concerned and yes, there is an aspect of boxing in cma. duh!

[unkokusai]

Well at least you're finally being honest. That gets you off my ignore list. :)


I was never on your 'ignore list.' Don't add lying to your growing list of offensive behaviors. :mad:

[Lam Tong Long]

dude, reading comprehension is important and your absolutes are the only thing that is "wrong". lol

Quite. Try improving yours. The whole point of my two posts was that, essentially, this is a stupid 'debate' in-so-far as BOTH sides can be correct in context.

However, since reading the 'context' (Rudy trolling 'that site') it seems there is no context.

So there is no right or wrong.

But thanks for ignoring all the points I addressed with solid examples (maybe Mr. "go to any boxing club" hasn't seen enough Ali or Hopkins???).

Reading Comp? Now you proved you're wrong. That's absolute.

[Lam Tong Long]

and think again about that back leg thing you're talking about. I said "generally" and in the general sense, it is correct to state that a jab comes off the lead side.


if you go to any boxing club, you will be shown what technically a jab is.

It is a straight punch thrown from the lead leg.

No mention of "generally" there. You even put 'generally' in quotes!!!

Reading comprehension.

Mr. Absolutes....LOL

[Lam Tong Long]

So first we have:


actually...Ima gonna go with Rudy's assessment.

Here's why. There is artwork from the minoan civilization, uncovered with teh akrotiri site in teh mediterranean that shows...well fancy that, Two youths boxing!

And not only that, but a jab is being thrown.

so there goes the whole modern idea right down the toilet.

Here's the truth boys, There is nothing new under the sun.

here's the pic and thanks for coming out. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/357px-NAMA_Akrotiri_2.jpg

rudy you ARE right. :p

Then later it becomes:


also, in re: origin of the word

[Origin: 1300–50; ME box a blow, boxen to beat, of uncert. orig.]

so unless the marquis of queensbury was around 400 or so years before he was born, I would say that you need to review your source.

Now some quick google and I learned that the Minoan period spanned 2600BCE - 1400BCE (from http://www.ancient-greece.org/resources/timeline.html)

Can anyone else see the huge flaw in this watertight argument?

LMFAO

If you want to argue semantics and "reading comprehension" then at least get your own problems in order.

[Lam Tong Long]

as well, I would say that "chaun fa" is pretty much as close to "boxing" as you can get as far as it is concerned and yes, there is an aspect of boxing in cma. duh!

Is that the same 'boxing' as the Minoans were doing before the origin of the word, Mr. "Reading Comprehension"?

Duh!

[Pork Chop]

ali liked to lead with the straight right (rear). While it was a fast, snappy, non committed blow i don't know if anybody would call it a jab.

On the other hand, just coz you throw a straight punch with your lead hand doesn't really make it a jab- so there's no way we could say that Minoan drawing showed a jab. Dempsey called his a "lead jolt". Liston was said to "knock people out with a jab" but again, it was more of a lead straight- much more committed than a jab should be.

boxing may only have 4 punches, but it's the variations (and angles) that kill.

[Ben Gash]

It's confusing with that painting because of the degredation of the lines and colours, but if you follow the lines of the hip and shoulder, then his right foot is forwards and he is punching with his left. This is supported by the fact that he is striking the right side of his opponent's face, and the top of his punching arm is obscured by the right arm.

[lunghushan]

I was never on your 'ignore list.' Don't add lying to your growing list of offensive behaviors. :mad:

What is up with you. It seems like you just like negative attention.

Where are you really?

[_William_]

Also, blacks it is well known have higher levels of testosterone than other races, which has been linked to the higher levels of melanin pigments, which could explain some of their more aggressive tendencies and higher sex drive.


Basically the bottom line is, races are like different types of dogs.

Dogs are all the same species and can interbreed, but they don't all look the same, and do not act all the same.

Same thing with humans. Not as pronounced a difference, but the same thing.


This is the dumbest s h 1 t I have ever seen. I think everyone here can see you for the racist scumbag you are. Ya just can't hide it, can you?

[lunghushan]

This is the dumbest s h 1 t I have ever seen. I think everyone here can see this racist bs for what it is.

It is not racist. Are you really that stupid? I'm not saying any race is better.

You know the difference between a breed and a species, right? Humans are like different breeds of dogs.

'White' skin, for example, has less melanin, the dark pigmentation. This leads to more sun sensitivity, likely developed for climates with much less light and more trees. The reason for the lighter skin is probably for greater light sensitivity for Vitamin D production.

So 'whites' have a much higher susceptibility to skin cancer. They shouldn't go out in the sun as much, or should use more sunblock. Many studies have shown this to be true.

The 'slanty eyes' of Asians also is present in some caucasians in the far north, such as Finland. This feature helps them see in the extreme glare caused by snow. So it is thought that this is an example of convergent evolution -- either that, or the Asians actually came from the far north, or Asians migrated to these northern regions.

It is not stupid. It is called SCIENCE. Separate your emotions from your logic for a moment.

[PangQuan]

ill concur

he is not being racist. he is simply stating what modern science has said regarding the differences between breeds of humans.

seeing as how hes has said something regarding several races....which one is he hating on?

do you know what color his skin is for a fact?

[_William_]

LOL at your "science". Why don't we bring back eugenics too, using your logic?

[David Jamieson]

man, i can't believe nobody upped with a "lol" on slurpee vs casino.

whatever happened to levity.

oh and by the way, just to rebut the whole comprehension bit cause im feeling testy (my own testys :p)


a cross is not thrown from the lead. the punch illustrated shows a lead straight punch a.k.a a jab.

a cross is generally not thrown from a lead.cross and uppercut come off the back leg and utilize the hip generation of force.

jab and hooks come off the lead for the most part.

of course, these are not hard and fast rules, but they generally hold true to boxing.

I said that only a few posts in tehre lam tong long, so there, nyah nyah, etc. :p

[_William_]

And to say that humans are different as breeds of dogs are is absolute nonsense.

[David Jamieson]

And to say that humans are different as breeds of dogs are is absolute nonsense.

this is correct. we are all exactly the same excepting the superficial differences in external appearances that are generational, due to diet, environment and genepool factors only. genetically speaking we are virtually the same one to the next.

specisim is tantamount to nazi ideals and is in fact a dangerous and frankly stupid path of thought.

make fun of the outside if you like, but inside, you're the same.

[lunghushan]

And to say that humans are different as breeds of dogs are is absolute nonsense.

I said the differences were less pronounced.

[SifuAbel]

Quite. Try improving yours. The whole point of my two posts was that, essentially, this is a stupid 'debate' in-so-far as BOTH sides can be correct in context.

However, since reading the 'context' (Rudy trolling 'that site') it seems there is no context.

So there is no right or wrong.

But thanks for ignoring all the points I addressed with solid examples (maybe Mr. "go to any boxing club" hasn't seen enough Ali or Hopkins???).

Reading Comp? Now you proved you're wrong. That's absolute.

This made no sense. Try again. I wonder who you are "over there" to actually give a poop if I was trolling or not.

As to unkokuwagamichipoopoo the difference is that I don't have to create a different name every 5 minutes just to get a comment out. And that even with all the tet e tet this is still somwhat civil and dummy free except for a couple of people. The dense factor over there is max times 10.

[lunghushan]

man, i can't believe nobody upped with a "lol" on slurpee vs casino.

whatever happened to levity.


I don't get the slurpee vs. casino thing.

[David Jamieson]

I don't get the slurpee vs. casino thing.

now THAT is funny! :D

awesome dude.

[lunghushan]

now THAT is funny! :D

awesome dude.

Maybe it's because most of the 7-11s in my town are owned by Pakis and not Indians. I don't know.

[SevenStar]

ali liked to lead with the straight right (rear). While it was a fast, snappy, non committed blow i don't know if anybody would call it a jab.

On the other hand, just coz you throw a straight punch with your lead hand doesn't really make it a jab- so there's no way we could say that Minoan drawing showed a jab. Dempsey called his a "lead jolt". Liston was said to "knock people out with a jab" but again, it was more of a lead straight- much more committed than a jab should be.

boxing may only have 4 punches, but it's the variations (and angles) that kill.


very true. holmes had a stiff jab as well.

[unkokusai]

the difference is that I don't have to create a different name every 5 minutes just to get a comment out.

Whatever the hell that means...

...............:confused:

[unkokusai]

This is the dumbest s h 1 t I have ever seen. I think everyone here can see you for the racist scumbag you are. Ya just can't hide it, can you?

Exactly! Well put!!

[SevenStar]

Also, blacks it is well known have higher levels of testosterone than other races

and bigger man parts...

[lunghushan]

They actually have a shot now that can give you darker skin and they found coincidentally that it reduces your appetite and increases your sex drive.

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=438402005

BTW, Redheads need more anesthesia:

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/000341.html

[unkokusai]

They actually have a shot now that can give you darker skin and they found coincidentally that it reduces your appetite and increases your sex drive.]

Is there a shot that can make you stop spewing nonsense?

[lunghushan]

Is there a shot that can make you stop spewing nonsense?

Is that a threat? We're not supposed to make threats at each other on this board.

[unkokusai]

Is that a threat? We're not supposed to make threats at each other on this board.

Yeah good, go run and get your mommy, psycho. You and your racist attitudes make me sick.

[lunghushan]

Yeah good, go run and get your mommy, psycho. You and your racist attitudes make me sick.

Your negative trolling is ****ed boring. :)

I mean, seriously, you have never really said anything on this forum that I can remember except negative vindictives and one-liners.

Are you some extremely bitter young man in a wheelchair or something who can't practice martial arts? Do you do any martial arts? Do you ever contribute anything?

[unkokusai]

Are you some extremely bitter young man in a wheelchair or something ?

I'm sure if I were that you would find some way to ascribe a racially-based explanation for why. :rolleyes:


And let's not fail to mention how you have now stereotyped all handicapped people as "bitter." Just keeps gettin' better and better with you, doesn't it?

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmm, me thinks someone is a bit too sensitive here.


If I said Italians like to eat Spagetti and Garlic bread, would yo be offended?

I mean, it is true, by virtue that Italian's invented the dish and it is very prevelant in our diatary culture....but you seem to find truth to be offensive.

except when a Black guy (Seven Star) says Black Males have big Johnsen's....that sterio type is Ok, and goes unchecked.....

Why is that?

[unkokusai]

Hmmm, me thinks someone is a bit too sensitive here.


If I said Italians like to eat Spagetti and Garlic bread, would yo be offended??



If you did so in a way that singled out, stereotyped, and limited Italians in any way, then yeah I would.

If you then went on to ascribe feelings, reactions, and behaviors based on that (or any other generalization) then I would be all the more so. If you further attempted to explain some stereotypical behavior that you imagined that Italians engaged in more than any other people and did so solely on the basis of appearance, then I would be right ****ed.

The fact that 'Italian' isn't a race per se, makes your example suspect, and the fact that I don't believe you are Italian (in the sense of being a citizen of that nation) makes your example superficial.



I mean, it is true, by virtue that Italian's invented the dish and it is very prevelant in our diatary culture....but you seem to find truth to be offensive.

except when a Black guy (Seven Star) says Black Males have big Johnsen's....that sterio type is Ok, and goes unchecked.....

Why is that?


Let's forget for a moment that Italians didn't invent pasta, garlic, or bread...


That last example was beneath comment, but apparently nothing is too base or juvenile for you.:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Spagetti, with Garlic bread is still decisively and Italian Dish. It does not matter who invented what.

If you did so in a way that singled out, stereotyped, and limited Italians in any way, then yeah I would.


Reply]
I singled out Italian's, and Seven Star singled out Blacks....don't you think you'd better get to attacking us?


As for my last comment, why do you call lunghushan for stateing basic truths about the various races, in a non derogatory way, but don't call Seven Star on it?

One of my best freinds is a nurse at one of the busiest ER's in Chicago, she pretty much agrees with lunghushan's comments that various races have different physical tendancies. There is nothing wrong with mentioning the facts, when they are true.

So far, lunghushan's comments seem to be inline with what i have heard in the past from my friend, and also a number of her professional medical freinds from her work (Doctor's, other ER nurses etc...)

Some how, you seem to take it as a slight, and an attack on the various races. I am not sure why you are being so sensitive, but no slight was intended here. Just mention of a few things that are basic common knolwedge in the medical field.

Again, why are you so hyper-senstive? You act like the little dweeb kids would pick on in grade school because it is so easy to get a rise from them.

[lkfmdc]

meanwhile, talking about the JAB :rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

Well at least you're finally being honest. That gets you off my ignore list. :)

Bottom line is, in our politically correct culture, it is actually harmful for people's health.

Men and women are not the same, especially from a health perspective. To treat them the same, would be very bad. They don't even have all the same body parts.

ROTFLMAO!


The races are also different. To ignore that fact can cause a lot of problems. From a health perspective, you cannot treat them the same.

The problem is that you cannot treat ANY two people the same, health care wise, even within the same "race".

In fact, you'll see far more uniformity of health care needs within a family than within race, and you'll likely find families of other "races" who have very similar needs. Given that aside from arbitrary markers of race like skin tone, two such families are more similar than their respective "races", do you then define them as being from the same race?

As already stated, most black americans have white heritage as well, we all have a melange of dna going on in us for the most part. While you could state that some people have the resistance to malaria that causes sickle cell anemia, and while you could say that most of those people are black, you still can't generalize that to many, possibly most, black people. The same goes for any so-called "race".

The differences that we see as different races are arbitrary and cultural (and situational) to a larger extent than they are actual. Difference in skin tone likely takes as many genes to express as difference in eye color, yet only one of those two is accepted as a marker for race in most cases. If people who have dark skin and broad noses are a different race, why aren't people who have big feet and lanky limbs? Because our tendency toward arbitrary distinction does not include those traits.

Mind you, historically and socially, there is race, it's hard to refute that, but genetically, it's a highly difficult thing to prove that race is a reliable tag at all. It's far more based on what you see than what is.

[KC Elbows]

Also, I would like to refute RD's statements on race being relevant as being completely unreliable, since he could not possibly have taken the time to educate himself on this topic while also intercepting truckloads of cigarettes, eating meatballs, and arguing with his wife about his mistress in their white shag carpeted living room by the couch with the plastic covering.

[KC Elbows]

As for SevenStar's points on the issue, I will not refute them because angry black people scare me.

[Royal Dragon]

Also, I would like to refute RD's statements on race being relevant as being completely unreliable, since he could not possibly have taken the time to educate himself on this topic while also intercepting truckloads of cigarettes, eating meatballs, and arguing with his wife about his mistress in their white shag carpeted living room by the couch with the plastic covering.

Reply]
Have you been spying on me? Also, we NEVER eat in the livingroom. It must be kept vertually steril for when we have company over (hence the clear plastic coverings on the couch).

We eat in the Kitchen, unless it a special occasion, then we eat in the dinning room. The dinnning room is never used otherwise.

All family socialising is done in the Den, to keep the living room unused, except for guests.

And yes, growing up in an italian family it WAS like this.

My families buisness centered around Ice cream, not cigatretts. Italians are involved in many buisneses traditionally, such as construction, bars/ resturaunts, car washes and anything that is mostly a cash buisness.

Although I am not deeply educated on the subject, my source is as she is a medical professional. There are medically recgnised differences between the major races for example, African Americans are known to be more prone to Kidney failure, Sickle Cell Animea, and Diabetes. Europeans tend more toward heart disease.

[KC Elbows]

Have you been spying on me?

I tried to, but the view was always obscured by your sister's huge hair.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! Another truth that hits too close to home!!

Athough in reacent years, she has moved form that hairstyle and shifted to somehting more corperately acceptable.

[Royal Dragon]

Also, the argument would not have taken place in the Living room with the white shag rug, it would have taken place at the kitchen table...we ONLY use the living room, with the white shag rug, for entertaining guests.

[lunghushan]

Well I have to admit, I did expect that the comment about race would get some detractors.

That's why I followed it up with the dog statement... even though it is valid to compare human races to dog breeds, a lot of people consider dogs a lowly creature and an insult.

But don't you think it's weird that nobody has ever tried to breed different types of humans? Maybe in the future we could do that... we talk about genetic manipulation but nobody has ever tried to breed different types of humans, have they?

[lunghushan]

Anyways, as for the jab, I know nothing about the jab, I have to admit.

[lunghushan]

Also, the argument would not have taken place in the Living room with the white shag rug, it would have taken place at the kitchen table...we ONLY use the living room, with the white shag rug, for entertaining guests.

Well we weren't Italian growing up, but rather American mutts, and we only used the 'living room' for guests or watching T.V.

We usually ate in the kitchen. In fact, the food rarely lasted long enough to get out of the kitchen to get to the 'dining room' except on occasions like Thanksgiving.

[unkokusai]

Although I am not deeply educated on the subject...

............................:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Well I have to admit, I did expect that the comment about race would get some detractors. =racist troll

[lunghushan]

It seems like the politically correct culture, and stifling the entire race and culture thing, is causing more problems than it solves.

I've gotten into a lot of trouble at work by treating Asians the same as Americans. They just aren't the same. The culture is very different.

[unkokusai]

I've gotten into a lot of trouble at work by treating Asians the same as Americans. They just aren't the same. The culture is very different.



You can stop digging anytime now...:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

So unkokusai decides to Quote me, but to prove his point he only included HALF the original sentance, to intentionally take it out of context as a dig against my argument.

See here is his quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Dummy

Although I am not deeply educated on the subject...


............................


But the rest of the original sentance goes on to say I am quoting an educated source.

The full sentance was actually this:

Although I am not deeply educated on the subject, my source is, as she is a medical professional.

Once again, he proves himself to be the little panzy....

[unkokusai]

So unkokusai decides to Quote me.

See here is his quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Dummy

Although I am not deeply educated on the subject...


................................



The pertinent admission was highlighted for everyone (especially YOU) to see.

[Royal Dragon]

So, who cares, my source is a medical professional in one of the busiest ER's in the country. Her EDUCATED and PROFESIONAL opinion trumps all of us on this subject.

In your vain attempt, you omited the part of the sentance that negates your position...on purpose, because you're a panzy loser.

[unkokusai]

So, who cares,



Apparently not you..........:rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

Anyway, maybe we should keep away from sensitive subjects.

[Royal Dragon]

No one seems all that sensitive about it but him.....he's weak, and easily hurt, that is not our problem, it is his. He needs to toughen up some.

[unkokusai]

He needs to toughen up some.

Yes, typing racist drivel on the internet is real tough. Stop, stop, you're scaring me.:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

No one else sees racist drivle, but you....you're hyper sensitive, and a panzy.

***Pokes Dweeb with pointy stick to see how much of a rise can be gotten***

[SifuAbel]

meanwhile, talking about the JAB :rolleyes:

Yes, please, don't hyjack this to cuba.

Please don't feed the unkkookooboy. He will only go on and on in the fashion only the bi-polar can go.

[SifuAbel]

Whatever the hell that means...

...............:confused:

What?, you don't know what that means? I'll tell you all later, if you care to hear the story.

[Royal Dragon]

But it's fun to toy with him!!!

****Pokes unkokusai with pointy stick to see how much he whines***

[unkokusai]

No one else sees racist drivle, but you....

Oh, is that the criteria for what constitutes racism? How many people on a kungfu forum type in their agreement? Interesting. :rolleyes:

Anyway, you may have missed a few posts in the last few pages.

[unkokusai]

What?, you don't know what that means? I'll tell you all later, if you care to hear the story.


I'm all ears.

[SifuAbel]

I'm all ears.


wagamichi, if you don't know, then you are a dumb azz.

[Royal Dragon]

Hee, hee, hee

Poke Poke....Taunt, Taunt! :p

[KC Elbows]

RD has trumped me on this. No, no italian I know would EVER use the living room for anything other than company. I never even put that together.

[Royal Dragon]

Big grin---------->:D

[Merryprankster]

This thread sucks.

I'm going for a burrito.

:D

[unkokusai]

wagamichi, if you don't know, then you are a dumb azz.

Still no idea what the heck you are talking about.

[KC Elbows]

To bring this thread back on topic through the gestalt approach, lets simply rule out which peoples could not have invented the jab:

For instance, the Germans could not have invented the jab, because there is no historical record of the French surrendering to it.

We've already ruled out the Germans. This approach also favors the English as an early favorite in regards to who would have invented it, since a jab from an englishman was, in the past, a great way to get someone to not notice the Ghurka next to the englishman until too late. However, there is stiff competition from those who hold that boxing as a whole was a Mexican invention designed with the intent of legally holding a job.

As you can see, there is no question that cannot be held prostrate and plumbed with the penetrating probe of reason.

[Merryprankster]

As you can see, there is no question that cannot be held prostrate and plumbed with the penetrating probe of reason.

However, whether or not you can do so legally depends on what the sodomy laws are in your area.

[KC Elbows]

However, whether or not you can do so legally depends on what the sodomy laws are in your area.

Good point.

Perhaps the question is more like a stripper, and we must calmly wave our carefully folded dollars of argumentation so that she might reveal her glittered bossoms of truth, knowing that, even though she seemed to show those bossoms to the guy at the last table, she's dating us; sure, it's a disfunctional relationship, where you argue and argue, but man the make-up sex is crazy good, and after six months of her burning your stuff and getting you in fights with 'roid freaks and hitting on your dad, you decide that you've had enough, and the next time the topic comes up on the forum, you're like, "Oh, I already hit that."

[tug]

Good point.

Perhaps the question is more like a stripper, and we must calmly wave our carefully folded dollars of argumentation so that she might reveal her glittered bossoms of truth, knowing that, even though she seemed to show those bossoms to the guy at the last table, she's dating us; sure, it's a disfunctional relationship, where you argue and argue, but man the make-up sex is crazy good, and after six months of her burning your stuff and getting you in fights with 'roid freaks and hitting on your dad, you decide that you've had enough, and the next time the topic comes up on the forum, you're like, "Oh, I already hit that."

Laying down the correct, it seems, KC is.

[SifuAbel]

I feel dirty.

[David Jamieson]

That's what you get for jabbing all night.

[PangQuan]

Well I have to admit, I did expect that the comment about race would get some detractors.

That's why I followed it up with the dog statement... even though it is valid to compare human races to dog breeds, a lot of people consider dogs a lowly creature and an insult.

But don't you think it's weird that nobody has ever tried to breed different types of humans? Maybe in the future we could do that... we talk about genetic manipulation but nobody has ever tried to breed different types of humans, have they?

for a time the chinese (some, cant remember what part or who of china, im sure others have more info on this as i am going from memory and to lazy to pulll up sources) were infatuated with half chinese half europians. the fad died out after a short time however...many people found the look of half chinese half euro to be exotic and beautiful.

which it is.