Importance of gradings/sashes

[Su Lin]

Had some good news this week, I', going in for my next grading soon.This one feels like more of an achievement after coming back from back problems which were affecting my training for over a month, then I was off completely for 2 months .I have been back for about 2 months now and trying to catch up with everyone!
I became a bit obsessed with grades, and the fact that my bf has jumped one ahead of me now,as he raded while I was off. However, just recently I have come to realise that the grading system and sashes are really quite irrelevant. Is it just a western thing that we like to be rewarded and to show other people where we stand/a hierarchy in schools?
Personally before I started kf I always did activities that had rewards with different leves and exams, rewards etc.
What are other peoples feelings towards gradings/sashes etc?
Im glad that I have finally realised that they arent important, as it has let me focus more on what I am actually doing.Its good to have something to work towards, but its kind of changing me as a person too, which is a good thing!

[The Xia]

A belt or a sash is only good for holding your pants up. My contention with belts/sashes is that most people care more about them then their actual skill. That, and the system is easily corruptible (good schools can turn into belt factories).

[shiyonghua]

Well, sashes were used to keep people's pants up cause that's what they used instead of belts.

Color sashes for rank is a new invention in CMA

[us0kch]

My understanding of TCM is that there are no belts to distinguish between rank or skill, you are basically part of a family or brotherhood/sisterhood of a group. Whoever starts before you is considered senior above you, regardless of how slow they learn and absorb the material and how fast you do. Most Traditional Chinese Sifu's will teach you something new when they feel you've accomplished and mastered the basic skills, whether it be horse stance, punching, kicking, etc.

Patience, dedication, commitment and hard work are all a virtue of Kung Fu, while the belts and grading/ranking system, as everyone said, is used to hold your pants up. :D

[Green Cloud]

Actualy the Sash is very important, it works just like a weight belt that body builders used.

Since we do a lot of low stances in Kung Fu it is important to wear a sash so you don't bust a gut.

hernias are very comon and the sash helps prevent that. As far as colors are concerned that's ok to as long as that is not your main focus. Even in the military you have rank.

As long as rank is earned there's nothing wrong with it.

[KC Elbows]

Once you have been burnt on belt sashes, there's no returning back. I.E. if you lessen their meaning, you will destroy their use.,

[The Xia]

It's the person's kung fu, not belt, that counts. If you put faith into a belt then you are missing the picture. It's like the Bruce Lee line in Enter the Dragon, "Do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."

[Green Cloud]

True that, not all schools are created equal. In my Kwoon we have colors but that's so I can keep track of who's on what. If I just taught a few students than I would do a way with ranking and keep in mind in my Kwoon it takes ten years to achieve a Black sash.

I'm sure it's easy to figure out a belt factory school over a hard core school.

[The Xia]

The thing is that belt systems often appeal to egos. I mean let's be honest, when someone gets a sash is he any better then he was the day before? However, that person often feels that way. The color worn around the waist becomes the paramount concern. But when push comes to shove, how do they know that a lower rank won't wipe the floor with them in a fight. Perhaps the higher rank does more of the system but maybe what the lower rank does know, he does better. It becomes harmful to progress when belts are what's important. Many people fall into that trap because of ego.

[us0kch]

Actualy the Sash is very important, it works just like a weight belt that body builders used.

Since we do a lot of low stances in Kung Fu it is important to wear a sash so you don't bust a gut.

hernias are very comon and the sash helps prevent that. As far as colors are concerned that's ok to as long as that is not your main focus. Even in the military you have rank.

As long as rank is earned there's nothing wrong with it.

Mr/Sifu Green Cloud,


That's interesting take, since I've never heard of getting a hernia by doing low stance work in Kung Fu? Not saying its wrong, but I've always believed low stance work was putting most of the stress on your legs to build and strengthen them up? In a sense, I guess you are tightening up the abs and while doing so, keeping your back straight, but I just don't see how it could bust a gut?? Coming from a Chinese background, I was always told the belt was used to hold your pants up and as my mom puts it, to keep the poor starving chinese people from being hungry by "closing up the empty space." :D

I know, mom's old wives tales

[Chief Fox]

Mr/Sifu Green Cloud,


That's interesting take, since I've never heard of getting a hernia by doing low stance work in Kung Fu? Not saying its wrong, but I've always believed low stance work was putting most of the stress on your legs to build and strengthen them up? In a sense, I guess you are tightening up the abs and while doing so, keeping your back straight, but I just don't see how it could bust a gut?? Coming from a Chinese background, I was always told the belt was used to hold your pants up and as my mom puts it, to keep the poor starving chinese people from being hungry by "closing up the empty space." :D

I know, mom's old wives tales

I'll say that it's wrong. That's wrong dude.

Your sash isn't even tied around your body in the correct position to stop you from getting a hernia.

You get a hernia in two ways.
1. You've had a weekness in your abdominal wall your whole life and something happens, could be as simple as a sneeze, that triggers the abdominal wall to rupture.
2. Straining from lifting or moving weight improperly.

I don't think holding low stances cause the kind of straining to cause a hernia.

Also,

Comparing a sash to a weight belt is totaly in-accurate. Many people wear weight belts to protect their abdominal wall while lifting. In recent years, weight belts have fallen out of favor because they allow people to actually lift with poor form. IMO, if you can't lift a weight without a weight belt, then you can lift that weight.

A sash holds your pants up. A colored sash pads your ego.

Sash tests are lame.

[Green Cloud]

Mr/Sifu Green Cloud,


That's interesting take, since I've never heard of getting a hernia by doing low stance work in Kung Fu? Not saying its wrong, but I've always believed low stance work was putting most of the stress on your legs to build and strengthen them up? In a sense, I guess you are tightening up the abs and while doing so, keeping your back straight, but I just don't see how it could bust a gut?? Coming from a Chinese background, I was always told the belt was used to hold your pants up and as my mom puts it, to keep the poor starving chinese people from being hungry by "closing up the empty space." :D

I know, mom's old wives tales

I don't dissagree with you or Xia but the with of the belt is designed to keep the organs in place and the back strait, especialy when doing Dynamic tension stuff just like weight lifting. BTW I have had two hernias while training.

As far as rank is concerned it doesn't make you better it's just a sighn of achievement. There nothing wrong with acknowledging someones efforts as long as the belt is worn around the waist and not the head.

Humility is very important.

[shiyonghua]

one of my old Shrfu's did discuss the importance of the sash in terms of what it does for you during training. I can't remember the details anymore (I know I'm a bad student) but I had thought it had something to do with keeping organs in the right place. As is often the case, I could be wrong, but that seems to be in line with what Shrfu GreenCloud was mentioning.

Insofar as rank, I agree that it gives one a sense of accomplishment, and that can be useful for motivation. There is no doubt, however, that the color sash ranking system is not "traditional," and is a tool that relatively modern instructors use. so getting back to the original question, I'd say that that one should concentrate on training; if you're training in a good place, the rank will come as you progress just as in any other MA that uses ranking systems.

[lunghushan]

Actualy the Sash is very important, it works just like a weight belt that body builders used.

Since we do a lot of low stances in Kung Fu it is important to wear a sash so you don't bust a gut.

hernias are very comon and the sash helps prevent that. As far as colors are concerned that's ok to as long as that is not your main focus. Even in the military you have rank.

As long as rank is earned there's nothing wrong with it.

??? KF sashes are very flimsy. I never heard the thing about hernias before. ???

Anyway, like somebody said, hierarchy has always been very important in KF. Older brother, uncle, sifu, stuff like that.

[shiyonghua]

ok, sorry about that, by the time I finished typing, GreenCloud has already finished his post . . .

[lunghushan]

BTW I have had two hernias while training.


??? What are you doing that you get hernias? I've never heard of this before. ???

[shiyonghua]

yes . . . makes sense.

Getting into a discussion about whether or not MA should use color ranking systems, however, does not make sense. Some people think so and others don't. What we can say though, is that traditionally Chinese martial arts did not have this ranking system, so matter how many student. Again: NOT passing judgement, cause I think its always dependant on the instructor. The bottom line is that there is no governing authority on all martial arts, so no one is going to come up with and incorporate the definitive answer

[shiyonghua]

Maxwang, I'd say go to another school . . .

[lunghushan]

The reason I am thinking this is I have been in a lot of fights and know I can pumel at least 3 Shifu/ balck sahes in my school who have never really been in a fight but have the rank. I have also beaten them in forms competition as well. So a lower belt beat a higher belt. What does this mean??

Belts have nothing to do with fighting ability in most MA. I think Judo and BJJ are the exception.

Belts usually just mean you have done N number of katas and have tested, or N number of fighting techniques, etc.

So just because you can pummel the black sashes (I mean, some guy off the street can pummel black sashes in most MAs), just means that you're at a normal school.

[Helena Handbask]

I was taught that sashes are used like weight belts for support.:p

[lunghushan]

I was taught that sashes are used like weight belts for support.:p

No, this weight belt thing is nonsense (at least I never heard of it). If anything, there is a Chinese tradition that you should cover your stomach and keep it warm. So you can find Chinese out in the cold sometimes with a bare chest but the belly covered.

[lunghushan]

We should treat all students with respect as potentially superior performers of our art?

It is like the saying, "treat your people as they potentially could be rahter than as they are?"

It's a ranking. I mean, they used to have older brother, uncle, etc., thing no matter the person's martial skill.

It's a Confucian thing, show respect to the elders. So if somebody started before you , then he is your older brother, irrespective of his fighting ability or even the number of forms that he's done.

[Green Cloud]

??? What are you doing that you get hernias? I've never heard of this before. ???

I'm sorry I wasn't being specific, At the time I was carrying weights while doing plyometric type exercizes to build power. I was squating in a low horse than jumping over objects to built explosive power. And onother time I simply sneazed:o Both times I wasn't wearing a sash. Personaly I don't like to wear it but now I do if I'm going to be lifting squating or doing dynamic tension exercizes.

[lunghushan]

I'm sorry I wasn't being specific, At the time I was carrying weights while doing plyometric type exercizes to build power. I was squating in a low horse than jumping over objects to built explosive power. And onother time I simply sneazed:o Both times I wasn't wearing a sash. Personaly I don't like to wear it but now I do if I'm going to be lifting squating or doing dynamic tension exercizes.

Okay ... I never heard of that before. I thought they just wore the sash in cold weather to keep their belly warm.

[Monkeyboy13]

Belts have nothing to do with fighting ability in most MA. I think Judo and BJJ are the exception.

Belts usually just mean you have done N number of katas and have tested, or N number of fighting techniques, etc.

So just because you can pummel the black sashes (I mean, some guy off the street can pummel black sashes in most MAs), just means that you're at a normal school.
lunghushan,
If you consider this a normal school, I suggest you start to look for a better school.
A. If all your school needs for sashes is "N" number of taolu (kata is japanese BTW) then you are being cheated. Especially at the higher levels. The taolu are useless if you cannot use them. AND, if you are not being taught to defend yourself, then you really should switch to contemporary wushu and call it a day.
B. If you expect some guy off the street to be able to pummel your black belts, that doesn't say much for them, OR your sifu (or more importantly, your opinion of your sifu).
Max,
It may be time to look for a new school, unless there are extenuating circumstances which may have impaired these black sashes (physical or mental disfunction, etc.)

JMO
Peace, MB13

[lunghushan]

lunghushan,
If you consider this a normal school, I suggest you start to look for a better school.
A. If all your school needs for sashes is "N" number of taolu (kata is japanese BTW) then you are being cheated. Especially at the higher levels. The taolu are useless if you cannot use them. AND, if you are not being taught to defend yourself, then you really should switch to contemporary wushu and call it a day.
B. If you expect some guy off the street to be able to pummel your black belts, that doesn't say much for them, OR your sifu (or more importantly, your opinion of your sifu).
Max,
It may be time to look for a new school, unless there are extenuating circumstances which may have impaired these black sashes (physical or mental disfunction, etc.)

JMO
Peace, MB13

For the record, I don't go to a school. And my sifu doesn't give out sashes.

I'm just saying what's out there. I used to go to schools, and that was what was out there.

I mean, a lot of sifus are old and can't fight anymore. Does this mean they're still not a master? Does it mean they still aren't higher than you? No, it does not.

If you're looking for a school that passes out ranking purely on fighting ability I don't think you're going to find it outside of Judo and BJJ which are more tournament based.

[Green Cloud]

Sometimes tradition sucks, when we talk about hierarchy in kung Fu I think it's stupid to have to bow down to someone because they met your Sifu first even though you have been training consistenty longer.

This is when ranking in the modern day make sense, How can you call someone Si Hing Or Dai si hing if they haven't been training in the system.

[Su Lin]

I missed out on a ood debate last night! **** time differences! My trousers have an elastic waist so I dont even need a belt to hold them up!!!
I agree with the whole belts arent important thing. Our teacher is becoming less interested in them, correctly teaching us things when we are ready ,even for higher rades ,when we are ready.
THe club uses a syllabus ,as do many clubs over here (especially Lau Gar clubs) which he is beginning to mix up a bit. It's bringing us on far more as students.
There is one guy in particular who is really quite hung up on belts, and doesnt like it if a student who hasnt been training as long as he has, but goes to more sessions a week, does loads of training at home and to be honest puts more effort in, overtakes him and gets a higher grade.
Its definitely an ego thing, and realising that and not concentrating on the grades has been liberating really. My training is definitely coming on now and I really dont care which belt I am.
I was pretty pleased though when he told me I would be doing my mext grade this time as I have put lots of work into getting back upto a decent standard after being off for a while.

[omarthefish]

No, this weight belt thing is nonsense (at least I never heard of it). If anything, there is a Chinese tradition that you should cover your stomach and keep it warm. So you can find Chinese out in the cold sometimes with a bare chest but the belly covered.

2 things.

1. Been to China have you? Because that last sentence is complete BS. Sashes don't cover your belly anyways.

2. Worn an actual traditional Chinese sash too? 2 Kinds of them.

- decorational. These are the satin thingees worn around the waist along with the silk pajamas.

- funtional. The cotton sash that is about 4-5 inches wide and wraps around your waist several times effectively doing exactly what is claimed. It keeps your waist wrapped almost as tightly as hand wraps do to your hands and not only keeps the pants up but yes, offers a certain degree of protection against injury at the waist.

[The Willow Sword]

it is an american system of ranking with in the martial arts. any martial arts. started by the japanese to accomodate the american sense of "rank advancement". in the beginning it was only 4 belts ,white yellow brown black. There was no real ranking in CMA, just the acknowledgement of Student and master. or disciple and master.

in a way the belt ranking system is useful for the instructor, that way he/she can keep track of the students progress(and if you have alot of students you need something to keep track of where they are in their training). if you are a teacher that has but a few students then you really do not need any thing to remind you of where a student is in his/her progress.

i have always felt that the ranking system in martial arts took away and distracted you from your actual progress as a martial artist. you get so wrapped up in "when am i going to test for the next level?" it becomes an obsession rather than just a simple marker of where you are in the teaching you have been recieving.

i dont give any real creedance to my 2nd degree black belt, i have always thought of myself as a student, and at one time an assistant instructor.
TWS

[Green Cloud]

Thank you Omar, that's what I'm talking about. Oh yea it also holds in the fat sifu's gut.

[MasterKiller]

what happens when a lower sash/belt beats a higher sash/belt in a fight or form competition?

Like when my Blue Belt training partner tapped a Brown Belt at Super Slam this weekend?

People generally slap you on the back. It's not a reflection on the Brown Belt's skills, but on the Blue Belt's achievement.

[Green Cloud]

In some styles like Judo, Jiu jitsu, Swai jow the belt is used to throw your oponent.

[The Xia]

Yeah, there are also techniques, like certain chokeholds, that use the opponent’s gi. These can be applied to other types of clothing like shirts though.

[Helena Handbask]

No, this weight belt thing is nonsense (at least I never heard of it).

So I assume you know everything about everything. And to call what I have been taught "nonsense" just shows how ignorant of a person you are, your instructor must be something special.

[lunghushan]

So I assume you know everything about everything. And to call what I have been taught "nonsense" just shows how ignorant of a person you are, your instructor must be something special.

I can express an opinion on here if I want. As for the hernia thing, if you're getting hernias you must be weak or have bad training.

As for Omar's thing, modern Chinese may not do this but modern Chinese don't do a lot of things that Chinese people used to do.

Anyways, in Japan this is called a haramaki. I don't know the name in Chinese.

[omarthefish]

http://homepage1.nifty.com/koshifumi/fdc-02a.html

lol.

http://www.e-budostore.com/special.htm

Now we're still waiting for any examples of this sort of thing in CHINA. Old China, new China, a piece of Chinese artwork....anything.

[lunghushan]

http://homepage1.nifty.com/koshifumi/fdc-02a.html

lol.

http://www.e-budostore.com/special.htm

Now we're still waiting for any examples of this sort of thing in CHINA. Old China, new China, a piece of Chinese artwork....anything.

Unfortunately I don't have time to hunt it down. No skin off my back in that I don't really care to prove it to you anyway. :)

[omarthefish]

There's no need to.

Most everyone knows your FOS on this subject anyways. It's your theory.

Can you even say where you head this story or even where you heard that something similar has ever been a traditional piece of Chinese clothing?

[BoulderDawg]

I'm not really a fan of using the belts as a form of advancement. I think there can be too many levels and, in many classes, belts are awarded when they probably shouldn't be.

I think a belt is just a belt. To be honest if a school is going to award them then it should be up to the student in question as to when he feels like he's ready to advance. Some students would award themselves up to black belt within months without really knowing anything while others may stay at a lower rank even though their skills far exceed many above them.

Personally I like the idea of having a fixed test for everyone...No more than four times a year. That way you could actually guage the progress that you have made over the past three months.

One other thing: Many schools use advancement as a way to make money through testing fees. I think in situations where you actually pay for your test the school is NOT going to fail you unless you screw up bad.

[Green Cloud]

I can express an opinion on here if I want. As for the hernia thing, if you're getting hernias you must be weak or have bad training.

As for Omar's thing, modern Chinese may not do this but modern Chinese don't do a lot of things that Chinese people used to do.

Anyways, in Japan this is called a haramaki. I don't know the name in Chinese.

Just a reminder, I was carrying weight and working on plyometrics. I'm sure at your level you don't train the way I do. Any type of high impact training or heavy lifting can cause a hernia. Unless you practice Tai Chi;)

Any way none of what I have debated here has anything to do my own preferences. But when it comes to sensiblity rank is sometime neccesary, Think of it from a Military sence. After all Kung Fu is a war art and rank in a neccesity to keep order.

Show me a School that doesn't have a ranking system and I'l show you a School that can't pay it's rent.

narcissism is exactly what make some folks resist authority and a disciplined structure. People like this want to say their part of the team but don't want to wear the uniform.

greencloud.net

[omarthefish]

I can show you at least one school with no ranking system that pays it's rent but I do admit that it is in the extreme minority and I still agree with your point.

Lunshan,

I'll admit up front that I am coming on a bit stronger than your posts merit just because I have seen you to spout off an awfull lot, making really authoritative declaritive statements about stuff you don't really know about before and in general you have some kind of ax to grind or SOME sort of issues I don't understand about teachers, schools etc. You don't seem to like anything and somehow think you are qualified to judge in many areas that you just aren't. That being said......

A "hong dou" is not like a hakimara beyond some very superficial resemblances but then swimsuits and lingerie are similar too. Doesn't mean they share a common root. The hong dou has nothing whatsoever to do with covering the belly for some sort of TCM belief. More relevant to your analogy, a hong dou covers the belly AND chest. It's still worn today by children in the countryside. Little children with no pants on run around with them on. It also, served as a kind of Chinese lingerei for WOMEN as it covers their breasts but leaves the back open. You can see Gong Li looking very sexy in one in "Joudou". They are generally red and satiny.

Here's some examples courtesy of google:

http://images.google.com/images?q=%E8%82%9A%E5%85%9C&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi

Very sexy......

heh. Ironically, most of the examples provided by the Chinese search engine, Baidu.com, don't even cover the belly:

http://image.baidu.com/i?tn=baiduimage&ct=201326592&lm=-1&cl=2&word=%B6%C7%B6%B5

Here's one terrifying example:

http://image.baidu.com/i?ct=201326592&z=0&flag=1&pn=6&cl=2&lm=-1&cm=1&sc=0&rn=16&tn=baiduimagedetail&word=%B6%C7%B6%B5&in=7

Here's a nicer one:

http://image.baidu.com/i?ct=201326592&z=0&flag=1&pn=15&cl=2&lm=-1&cm=1&sc=0&rn=16&tn=baiduimagedetail&word=%B6%C7%B6%B5&in=16

ooh...better still:

http://www.5vmm.com/nv/mm/2324.html

[lunghushan]

Omar,

That's not what I'm talking about.

Based upon the arguments that modern sanshou and modern sanda are realistic of CMA, the fact that somebody selling internal herbal formulas without listing the ingredients argues that this is okay by FDA rules (it is not), and numerous other examples, such as you arguing with me about something from Chinese history based upon modern China, and that modern Shaolin is somehow of martial value, I've come to the conclusion that there's no point in talking to any of you anymore.

For the record (I removed the post), I spoke with an older Chinese gentleman who said this was indeed a traditional garment, called a du-do ('protect belly'), and now the term is also used for a tank top type of garment, but the modern Chinese don't like wearing it anymore.

He said he used to see people in villages wearing it when he was a kid, but now that it's only used for traditional Chinese medicine for holding on herbs about the belly. He did say that people in remote villages possibly could still wear it (which would account for the reference in a book I found).

As for the weight belt thing, he said they never used a sash for this, but rather a stout belt usually made of leather. I've come across Hung Gar people wearing that.

[omarthefish]

Dude, it's not me.There's no point in you discussing this or any of the other things you post about with anyone. It's the same on all of your threads. Wether it's crapping on every MA teacher you ever met, explaining why contracts are bad, Chinese medicine or whatever your current rant is.

And btw, "du dou" does NOT mean "protect belly". The "du" does in fact mean "belly" but the "dou" just means a "pocket" or a "bag". You are here trying to remember a conversation with some Chinese guy you had and I am on the other side telling you what it actually means. It's the same garment. Here's a pic of the more traditional du dou, not the fasionable lingerei version:

This is a traditional du dou that you might see worn by a young woman in the countryside:

http://image.baidu.com/i?ct=201326592&z=0&flag=1&pn=0&cl=2&lm=-1&cm=1&sc=0&rn=16&tn=baiduimagedetail&word=%B6%C7%B6%B5&in=1

This is another very traditional kind worn by a baby:

http://imgnews.baidu.com/ir?u=http://photocdn.sohu.com/20060809/Img244705454.jpg&f=http://news.sohu.com/20060809/n244705453.shtml&c=baidu&fr=baidusmallnone&st=detail

This is the basic pattern when not being worn:

http://image.baidu.com/i?ct=201326592&z=0&flag=1&pn=30&cl=2&lm=-1&cm=1&sc=0&rn=16&tn=baiduimagedetail&word=%B6%C7%B6%B5&in=31

And your post above is very representative of why most people around here find you to be an irritating dilletant.

It's good you retracted the statement (even though you restated it above) because you clearly either misunderstood the old Chinese dude, he misunderstood you or you just don't remember your conversation clearly enough.

[lunghushan]

It's good you retracted the statement (even though you restated it above) because you clearly either misunderstood the old Chinese dude, he misunderstood you or you just don't remember your conversation clearly enough.

Dude, I talked to the guy TODAY. He's from Beijing. He even gave me the Chinese letters written down, which I would transfer to computer except there's no point in dealing with you anymore.

[omarthefish]

Dude, I talked to the guy TODAY. He's from Beijing. He even gave me the Chinese letters written down, which I would transfer to computer except

....there's no point in dealing with you anymore.

And yet....here you are......

The Chinese "letters" are written down on every single one of the links that I gave you.

肚兜


肚 = tummy

兜 = a pocket, pouch or similarly shaped object.

He told you what it was called and I have provided pictures. Just not very similar to the Japanese thing at all. China just doesn't seem to have that kind of traditional clothing. You have clearly either misunderstood him or he misunderstood you. Don't keep flaunting your ignorance on the subject like you always do by trying to argue this point. There is no connection between the hong dou and "yao dai", or traditional Chinese belt. Completely different items worn for completely different reasons. You're arguing from "this dude told me..." and I am arguing from "Oh yeah, I know what that is from personal experience. No. Not what you're thinking of." I even provided pictures of both the traditional kind worn by women, the kind worn by babies and the new fasion version that "everyone's wearing these days".

NONE of them serve as a belt of to keep anything warm or are worn for health reasons. The belt, as worn by most southern stylists, has been a common article of traditional Chinese clothing for just as long as the du dou. There's no evidence whatsoever that one came from the other.

You're just speaking out yer rear end and only arguing because it's embarrasing to get called on it.

[David Jamieson]

as a device for ranking, they are relevant only relative to the school you are part of.

for support, they afford some support to the lower back if they are the proper size and width and tie.

other than that, not much more to say about them.

[The Xia]

It's interesting to note that many Hung Gar stylists use actual weightlifting belts in their training.

[The Xia]

It isn't necessary if the class is small. I can see a Sifu using colored sashes, or some other kind of marker, in a large class where students come and go. Since the Sifu would have too many faces to remember he can use belts to indicate what that person is working on. When the Sifu sees that the person should move on he slaps another sash on him (no belt testing). I can see this as a viable solution for dealing with the difficulty of having a large class. Even in this system, it is important for the students to realize that it’s their Gong Fu, not sash color that counts. However, if you are teaching a small group, sash systems aren't necessary.

[dainos]

we have over 300 students at one time so. it might take a bit.
we have 5 senior intructer. 4 sifus and 1 si mo. we getting biggered fast. i know im not using real words

[Anthony]

"I have come to realise that the grading system and sashes are really quite irrelevant. Is it just a western thing that we like to be rewarded and to show other people where we stand/a hierarchy in schools?"

It was my understanding that the belt system was developed by Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo. Does anyone know if he did this for the sake of teaching Americans or did he develop it in Japan before introducing Judo to the US.

I'm sure you'll correct me if my facts are wrong on any of this.

Another thing, if the belt system was created to cater to the American ego, as some of you imply, what do they do in Karate schools in Japan? I'm not 100% sure but I would guess that a Kyokshin school in Japan would have the same ranking system as that in America, since the schools are governed by the same organization. It would seem....and this is just me.....that they have a sense of achievement as well. Do Colleges in other countries offer degrees or do students just pay, learn, and leave without getting a diploma?

I don't think that a blanket statement like "american's like to be rewarded" makes sense in light of this. It's kind of like the common belief that all Americans are out of shape......I happen to be in great shape. I think that it's up to the individual's mindset how much emphasis they place on rank. You can't control that. Some people are superficial and some are not. But, the rank system is a necessary evil.

[The Xia]

Yes, Jigoro Kano did invent the belt system. After he did this, it was adopted by other Japanese styles. Karate first saw belts, and dogi, when Funakoshi taught in Japan. I sincerely doubt that the colored belt system was invented to feed egos. To be honest, I am not quite sure of why it was invented. I cannot remember where, but I heard that Kano used belts in order to properly match competitors with those of their own skill. If you think about it, belt rankings would also be welcomed by 20th century Japanese militarism.

[Anthony]

"I cannot remember where, but I heard that Kano used belts in order to properly match competitors with those of their own skill."

My guess is something along those lines as well. I don't think that belt rank in the states really lost meaning until the McDojos started to flourish. Before that, schools were not as widespread and the ones that were around were hard core. The thing that kind of irks me is that people are so quick to point fingers at the west as being the great corruptor of everything. As if all MA teachers in China's past were "Mr. Miyagi." They don't know that they are proudly showing their ignorance. There may not have been belt rank but China certainly had it's share of unscrupulous MA teachers.

[The Xia]

There was some bullshido around. A perfect example of that is "Spirit Boxing". But historically speaking, Kung Fu was used by people who actually fought in life and death confrontations. Also, the majority of those that used Kung Fu weren't Imperial military like many would assume. It was quite the opposite actually. Societies with the doctrine of overthrowing the Emperor were filled with Kung Fu practitioners. A mercenary was a common profession for a Kung Fu man. Many Chinese martial artists also wandered around as street performers. It is true that Kung Fu was present in temples. Many martial monks were killers though. Kung Fu was not something that had full social approval. It was a pursuit largely relegated to people not looked upon in a favorable light by the Imperial court.

[Anthony]

That's a big can o' worms. To sum up TCMA history in a nutshell is impossible. I could tell you that Stanley E. Henning, Charles Holcombe, Dr. William C.C. Hu and Fred Bleicher are good authors if you can find any of their articles on the net. Back when I had time I kept an eye out for the most seemingly well researched sources I could find on anything pertaining to TCMA history.

But to address the point of con artists in TCMA's past, off the top of my head....."Societies with the doctrine of overthrowing the Emperor were filled with Kung Fu practitioners."

Alot of these societies preyed upon the illiterate masses. Although they were largely illiterate, they knew folk legends and heroes of novels that were popular at the time (fictional characters). Some instructors actually claimed to be these fictitional characters in order to entice students. Some claimed to have learned from them. Instructors would put on elaborate demos in which they and their students would fake feats of strength and skill (pretending to be impervious to swords, guns, etc).....again, to lure students. These types of cons got students killed. Now, granted, I'm talking about a specific time and place. TCMA history is long and China's a big place.

"Many martial monks were killers though."

Althought it's not the point, there were martial monks in Japan and throughout Europe as well. Don't you think that monks killed people during the crusades.

Other point's to consider regarding TCMA history are:

TCMA and theater go back to the time before Christ. Fact and fiction were constantly interchanged.

How Chinese martial artists fought is poorly documented and it is believed that they fought like regular soldiers.


Every time I re-read and old book or article of mine, I learn something new. I don't want to get too much off the point which was that too many people seem to have a comic-book notion of TCMA's past which just isn't factual. Before ten more people jump on this thread and start arguing with me I'll just refer you (or anyone else) to the above authors as a good start. I could never go into the kind of detail here that their works go into.

[The Xia]

I agree that the history of TCMA is long and complex but I was just throwing out some factoids. As for "Spirit Boxing", I cannot find much about it on the internet. This article is a good introduction if you are interested. http://kungfucinema.com/articles/20051220_01.htm

[unkokusai]

You can see Gong Li looking very sexy in one in "Joudou". ]



Of course Gong Li would look very sexy wearing a burlap sack!:eek:

[unkokusai]

It's good you retracted the statement (even though you restated it above) because you clearly either misunderstood the old Chinese dude, he misunderstood you or you just don't remember your conversation clearly enough.



Don't forget option 'D,' which is that he never had a conversation with anyone and is cooking it up as he goes.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Sash/Belt gradings should be used as a learning step if they are used. Each sash should represent what the person has learned and what the next step of learning will be. The tests should also be difficult mentally and physically and the person should certainly have a sense of pride when finished.

[BoulderDawg]

I think most school's grading/testing structure is based on the psychology of keeping the beginner interested enough to keep coming back. I know in my school at least 50% of the people who sign up don't make it through the first 3 months.....and this is even with the easy advancement possible.

I think the first couple of advancements/belts should be fairly easy to obtain. This will give the new student some encouragement and hopefully inspire him/her to go further. Afterwards the test and grading should be a lot tougher.

I'm of the opinion that in a normal program, if you work hard and show up for class, you should be able to achieve a high level (Black belt or equalvalent) in about three years. I think this is a good time frame. Anything shorter is not enough time and anything longer may cause the student to lose interest. I worked with a woman who was into Karate. She was telling me the average time to get to black belt level in her school was 10 years. I don't imagine that many people stay long enough to reach that level at her school!

[SilverNeedle]

I think sashes are important, we should accept that we are not chinese. We are occidentals, we have a different culture. So we use this sistem to have some kind of 'organization' in our training. I also see it like a reward to training (which should be hard), dedication, effort, etc.

but I know some shools suck. :rolleyes:

[The Xia]

I think sashes are important, we should accept that we are not chinese. We are occidentals, we have a different culture. So we use this sistem to have some kind of 'organization' in our training. I also see it like a reward to training (which should be hard), dedication, effort, etc.

but I know some shools suck. :rolleyes:
I disagree with you here. It doesn't have anything to do with Eastern vs. Western. After all, the Japanese came up with the colored belt rankings. I feel that belt systems are easily corruptible. The only place I see purpose in them are when a Sifu has hordes of students and cannot possibly remember where they are at. Therefore, he uses them as an indicator. Other then the circumstance of a very large class, they are totally unnecessary and act as a hindrance. Some people may like belts because it seems like a tangible reward for effort. This is a distorted view. It is the skill, not the belt that is the reward. It is counterproductive for the goal to be a belt. The goal of training should be improving your Gong Fu.

[SevenStar]

I disagree with you here. It doesn't have anything to do with Eastern vs. Western. After all, the Japanese came up with the colored belt rankings. I feel that belt systems are easily corruptible. The only place I see purpose in them are when a Sifu has hordes of students and cannot possibly remember where they are at. Therefore, he uses them as an indicator. Other then the circumstance of a very large class, they are totally unnecessary and act as a hindrance. Some people may like belts because it seems like a tangible reward for effort. This is a distorted view. It is the skill, not the belt that is the reward. It is counterproductive for the goal to be a belt. The goal of training should be improving your Gong Fu.

ANYTHING is easily corruptible. That is not due to the rank system, it's the morality of the teacher. I know students in non-sash systems that suck. badly. In some cases, their teacher is chinese. Now, attend a bjj school and try to find a black belt that sucks. you'd be hard pressed. It has zero to do with the ranking structure.

the goal really doesn't matter, when you think about it. If my students' goal is a belt, that's fine. My job is to make sure they are at the appropriate skill level before I give them the belt.

[Samurai Jack]

I'd like to relate what a good friend of mine who has taught and practiced Wu Mei for over thirty years has told me concerning the wide Southern style belts you often see in old photos. His system still uses them. He told me that it is used to provide pressure around the Dan tien so that the student learns to link thier hips with thier shoulders so that they can more easily learn to issue power from thier Dan tien. He also says it protects the lower back and belly from herniation, much as a weight belt might.

We use our obi in aikido and iaido for exactly the former reason, but not the latter. Basically it encourages us to learn to use our centers more effecivly. It helps to inflate our abdomens somewhat by pushing down on our diaphram. Using this pressure, our hips connect to the rest of our body more firmly. It helps us to move properly for our systems. Eventually you can practice doing it without the obi by loosening it somewhat.

I'll note that in my Hsing-i training, we also do the same thing, but without a belt. The student first becomes really aware of this inner pressure when learning Pao Chuan during the belly hitting portion of the movement. When you do that you inflate your abdomen at the same time that you contract the muscles of the abdominal wall. Again, it is a major step in learning to make internal connections. Normally people will contract thier abdomens without inflating, and this produces an incorrect pressure.

The same thing is accomplished during chi kung meditation through reversed breathing.

On the other hand, there are many arts that do not emphasize this technique, or which find other ways to accomplish it just as Hsing-i has. I think it's reasonable to assume that amoung the hundreds of different styles of kungfu, that not all of them will make use of a thick belt, nor would they all use the belt for the same reasons.

Hope this helps.

[The Xia]

I agree that it is the teacher's skill and ethics that determine the quality of students but belt systems create an illusion that students must overcome, even in good schools. It is important for a good teacher that uses belts to stress to the students what is really important.

[The Xia]

Before ten more people jump on this thread and start arguing with me I'll just refer you (or anyone else) to the above authors as a good start. I could never go into the kind of detail here that their works go into.
I understand that something with such a long and rich history cannot be explained with a paragraph. I am not quite clear on your point though. Although my post is not a dissertation on TCMA, I tossed some facts out. Do you contend with anything I have said?

[Helena Handbask]

I can express an opinion on here if I want. As for the hernia thing, if you're getting hernias you must be weak or have bad training.


I never mentioned hernias. Your attention to detail is staggering *lol* as probably are your stances *LOL*:D

[The Xia]

No use replying to lunghushan now. He hasn't posted here in a little while. His apparent goodbye is on the Min Loi Jam thread.

[Ray Pina]

On one hand, belts mean nothing, it's what you have that matters.

On another hand, I have tapped plenty of 4-striped white belts at Renzos even though my white belt has no stripes. I'm getting by on experience and fight spirit. They have more technical skills than me, so our ranks are right. I turn to them for guidance and assistance because they know more about what I want to learn than me.

Belts mean nothing to me.... belts mean a lot to me. I never let mine, be it white (Gracie) or black (isshin-ryu), hit the floor.

[Helena Handbask]

:eek:
No use replying to lunghushan now. He hasn't posted here in a little while. His apparent goodbye is on the Min Loi Jam thread.

oh poo!

[SevenStar]

I agree that it is the teacher's skill and ethics that determine the quality of students but belt systems create an illusion that students must overcome, even in good schools. It is important for a good teacher that uses belts to stress to the students what is really important.

To be honest, I don't think you need to emphasize anything at all if you are in a school that has a good progressive system and emphasizes sparring. In bjj, take ANY white belt and put him against a purple belt - the difference is obvious. It reinforces itself. If you are in a school that focuses on things like forms and point sparring, then it's not so obvious, as you can't really draw a skill line fighting wise. And THAT is the main problem with belt ranking.

[SevenStar]

I can't agree more with this. When I left my first KF school (hung gar) that used a sash system, I realized how incredibly scewed and flawed my thinking was. It just does not encourage the proper mind set (especially in CMA). Its so unimportant. Students only pay attention to what they need to get their next rank, which is the natural reaction.

And THAT is the next big problem. schools have set forms and techniques to know and then they are permitted to test. That in itself takes away from the skill required. You are allowed to test because you know the material and can perform it well. IMO, that sucks.

in bjj (would likely be the same for muay thai, if we had ranks), you have to be able to beat those better than you. For example, a white belt will not even be considered for his blue until he can beat the blue belts above them some of the time and hang with them all of the time, regardless of which techniques he knows and performs well. This keeps things in check, skill wise - you know the student is at the level of the next rank, because he can at least hang with them and almost beat them.

When ranking is done this way, it doesn't matter what the student focuses on. It actually gives them more freedom to think about what they want. For example, I HATE ippon seionage. On the other hand, I LOVE harai goshi. (yeah, they are judo techniques, but there are no bjj techniques I can think of that I hate, so bear with me)

if my school has a focus on knowing the techniques in a curriculum, I have to regularly train seionage even though I will never use it in a fight or competition. If my school focuses on fighting skill development, than I can use whatever is enabling me to win. consequently, I know seionage as it's been taught, but nobody is forcing me to train it, as they are promoting my fighting development.