Ba Gua Pre birth /Post Birth

[Sil Lum Palm]

Lately I have been trying to learn a bit about Ba Gua before I begin my ELF classes and I was wondering if anyone could help me with a question I have? Okay, now I've heard that there is two different ways to approach Ba Gua, and those are pre-birth and post-birth. I know that pre birth deals more with the meditation and spiritual side of Ba Gua, and that post-birth deals more with fighting and its applications. What I was wondering is this : Would it be counter-productive to learn Ba Gua as a pre-birth method if I am practicing an External Shaolin style, or would it strengthen my Shaolin technique? Also, if I take the pre-birth approach to Ba Gua would it be possible to reach more "advanced" fighting stages of Ba Gua in the future?

I would like to hear from those practicing both sides if possible. Also, how many others here practice Ba Gua's pre-birth method?

[Rockwood]

Hi , I like to practice baguazhang. As I understand it, prebirth practice refers to the circlewalking palm change sets. These are primarily for body training, and programing the body to move in a "ba gua" fashion. The postheaven straight line drills are more combative and tactical in nature, although they are always based on the circle forms. I am sure others could give you a much more in-depth description of how things are classified, this is just the general idea.

Also there are many bagua styles that do not use this calssification system, perhaps they do not even have any straight line forms at all.

As I understand it, pre and post heaven techniques are both equally important.

Regarding cross training, be aware that when you practice CMA, you are engaging in "body washing" where you are literally changing you body from the inside out to be more like your teacher. You "become" the art with time. So if you are doing half of one, half of another, you will end up as a synthesis, never truly in one camp or another. My advice would be to complete your Shaolin training and achieve a "shaolin body". Then you will be able to carry that forward with you into your next course of study. Otherwise you are in danger of not reaching a high level in either.

On the other hand there is no harm in visiting and feeling other styles to get an idea of what they do, just in case.... :)

-Jesso

[Sil Lum Palm]

Good reply. I was also thinking the same about cross training, but I was also thinking that maybe the internal power ba gua gives would enhance my external power. In the Five Family Fist classes you learn the five element fist and foot of TCM or Xing Yi whichever you preffer to call it, as well as the five animals and five families system. Five Family Fist has some internal work as well. I also think your right about sme schols not even using this classification, and thats the direction I kinda wanted to take this discussion. Also, I'd like to hear about who does and who does not use these methods , along with a little exlanation. Also, I still want to hear others opinions on cross training just to get a generla idea. Thanks.

[Sil Lum Palm]

I also wanted to add that the system of Ba Gua taught by our Sifu is Royal Palace style, part of Tai Tzu Chang Chaun.

[Rockwood]

Sil-
Yeah, you will find that there is no clear definitions among the baguazhang schools, different schools use the same terms for different things. For instance, your use of the term Five Family Fist is one I have never heard before. Have you had a chance to read the old Pa Kua Chang Journal? This publication had a pretty exhaustive examination of the major baguazhang schools in Taiwan and mainland China. You would find a lot of insight in the way these systems classify their material by reading the old Journal.

-Jessæ

[TheBigToad]

This pre-birth and post birth Bagua is really nothing more then a great misunderstanding and mistranslation of I-Ching and trying to apply it to the martial art of Baguazhang.

The circle is the heart the very core of Baguazhang, it is what trains it's techniques, builds the power and restores and balances the health of a person, the Chinese would say, to return to a state of prefect health as one was in the womb.

Being that China at that time didn't have a large population of crack addicts and thus the crack baby who is addicted and who's body craves this addiction and bares the ill effects of his/her crack ***** mother wasn't exactly part of Daoist/Buddhist thinking of prefect health before birth.

The linear sets came because of the great interest by Hsing-I Chuan people in Bagua and it was easier to conceptualize the linear fashion. Linear Bagua was never meant to be more combative and technique teaching then the circle walking, neither is it anywhere near has health producing or developmentally challenging as circle walking.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[Sil Lum Palm]

Nice reply Toad, I had also been told by others that the circle walking was the core of Ba Gua. I have seen people doing the circle walking, but I know without actually being taught there is no way to understand it. I've read a bit of material on it including B.K Frantis' book, "Power of Internal Martial Arts", and thats where I heard the pre/post birth thing. I'll learn more about it when I begin my ELF course I'm shure.
Rock-
Five Family Fist/ Five Animals is a Southern Sil ( siu) Lum system. It is the system I am currently studying now, and it is also the system I will start Master's Degree courses in beginning September. Emperor's Long Fist ( Tai Tzu Chang Chuan) is the internal art practiced at our school which contains Ba Gua ( Royal Palace style), Xing Yi , Tai Chi. ALso where can I get a copy of that book? Thanks.

[Rockwood]

Sil-
You can find some back issues of Pa Kua Chang Journal (its a mag not a book) at http://www.plumflower.comOther than the few they have, you will have to find people that have them and check it out. They have lots of historical, lineage, and training data.
Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is something I have never heard of. Of course, China is a big place and there are lots of different villiage and family styles that are unique and unknown in the west. Is it from the mainland or was it brought from Hong Kong or Taiwan?
I must admit it sounds almost unbelievable that someone could synthesize so many martial arts into one. It would be like bringing bowling, baseball and hanggliding into one practice. Of course, it it might be possible, but it would take a super genius to do it!
Do you train all of the different forms, or have the principles of each been distilled and brought together into one series?
-Jess

[RAF]

In our system of Yin Fu style bagua ala Gong Bao Tian, linear forms also employ some type of weapon. In the Ying Shou form, deerhorn knives are added so the form is either open handed or with weapon. We also, with slight modification, put in the bagau hooked swords. At another level of the form, we add back in circle walking utilizing the 8 mother palm forms so the form consists of both noncircular segments and circle segment. The linear form ba gau combination fists can utlize the pens.

In the bagua sword we have segments that are noncircular and you can also put in circular segments. Our post work also has circular and noncircular segments and I have been told that all of the linear forms can be decomposed back into circle walking.

Xiao kai men, our first and most elementary form can be linear and decomposed into circle walking. Applications are most evident in the linear form.

I know that our nei shou zhang and eight mother palms are designed for conditioning and qi circulation but all have applications.

Some say that the linear forms in our style is really Lohan but I don't buy it. It may have the some of the movements and postures from lohan but they are filtered through the techniques and jings of bagua.

The count can probably add a bit more to this

[TaoBoxer]

WTH was THAT all about? By the way, You're right In the 1850's there was no rock cocaine in china because everyone was smoking opium. Ever heard of the Sick Men of Asia? This dark period lasted untill around 1911 when the Republic was formed and the use of Opium was banned and punishable with death.

I just wrote an article on Pre- and Post birth training in Ba Gua and basically, it's all an illusion. Your Intent (yi) is what makes it Yin or Yang, Post or Pre birth.

I know I haven't read any of the I Ching in the original chinese, and I don't think Kevin has either. I'd be carefull about swallowing too much of that "Misinterpreted reading" stuff. Too many people are using the "ancient chinese secret" BS these days. But...as far as I remember.. All of my translations of the I Ching don't even MENTION the pre- and post birth arrangement. It is more often talked about in TCM.

[TaoBoxer]

As far as pre-birth (linear, yang) being done with weapons and post-birth (circular, yin) being done empty-hand, again, it is an illusion. The key to the internal arts as I understand it is yi. Change your intent from empty hand to weapon, and Poof! It's a weapon art. I realise that a lot of styles of ba gua have unique weapon forms, but in our family I have been told that you merely practice your palm changes as-is with the weapon in your hand. It is easy on one hand but very challanging on the other.

One thing Kevin said I do agree with is that if you wanna get good at bagua.... PRACTICE BAGUA! Don't get too tied up with this pre-post-am I moving my chi-My master can beat up your master crap.

If ya wanna get good, get on the Circle and walk baby...... Thats the secret.

Bill

[TaoBoxer]

WTF was THAT all about? By the way, You're right In the 1850's there was no rock cocaine in china because everyone was Smoking Opium!!! Ever heard of the Sick Men of Asia? This dark period lasted untill around 1911 when the Republic was formed and the use of Opium was banned and punishable with death.

I just wrote an article on Pre- and Post birth training in Ba Gua and basically, it's all an illusion. Your Intent (yi) is what makes it Yin or Yang, Post or Pre birth.

I know I haven't read any of the I Ching in the original chinese, and I don't think Kevin has either. I'd be carefull about swallowing too much of that "Misinterpreted Translation" stuff. Too many people are using the "ancient chinese secret" BS these days. But...as far as I remember.. None of my translations of the I Ching don't even MENTION the pre- and post birth arrangement. It is more often talked about in TCM.

As for Linear Bagua being "simplified" so Hsing I guys can understand it.... That's kinda talking down to Hsing I. I am not sure as to the origins of the linear sets, but I do know that Gao Yi Sheng supposedly learned them from a wandering Taoist that no one had ever met before. (And as a student of Doc Painters, that story should sound familiar kevin) I get the feeling that the most likely explanation of the Linear sets is the EXTENSIVE cross-training between Hsing I and Ba GUa guys back around the turn of the century in Tianjin and Beijing.

[count]

Obviously different things to different people and nothing at all to some. Generally the pre-post thing in the I-ching has to do with the two different layouts of the trigrams. By the way taoboxer, both layouts are found in my translation of the I-Ching. One earlier more orderly version and the post method which is more complicated and related to baguazhang. Again, the relationship with the I-ching and baguazhang means many different things to different schools.

Some styles hold to the pre-birth method or returning to the natural state in a physical way. The way you were in the womb before you were born. A different way of breathing, a different head position etc. For our style (Yin style), it is pre-birth more for development of internal strength and health and post-birth more for combative. Not that the circular forms aren't combative either. These linear forms in the post birth methods may have the slightest similarities to hsing-i and lohan, but are clearly bagua not hsing-i. They are the same forms as the circular ones.

RAF, a point of order. First of all I haven't heard the same explanation of pre and post birth related to the fact that many of our hand forms later add the weapons. Is that what you were saying in your comments? Also, I was told our forest palm is the set for the needles. The fist set is for brass knuckles and to add to that, our bagua 12 elbows is the set we use to learn the elbow dagger's. I'm sure they are interchangeable to some extent though. You have to show me the bagua sword form when I come out for the tournament in October. I don't think Jason knows that set. ;)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[RAF]

Count

I do not know the 12 elbows (seen pieces of it demonstrated). I know a form called bagua combination fist. I was shown a couple of moves on how to put in the bagua needles (for this form) (except its not quiet a needle--its an 8 inch tapered piece of steel with a ring in the middle which permits the bar to rotate. Its tapered on both ends)

The tighthand form is used with the deer horn knives (technically not deer horn knives but that is what we use). One set of deerhorn knives fit into the palm your hand (Tony had them when he came over from Taiwan but now they have somehow mysteriously disappeared or borrowed). In the same form you can take hooked swords and play them. As we add some of the circle walking postures back from nei shou zhang, the deerhorn knives follow both the circular walking pattern and noncircular walking pattern. I have been told that another form, the bagua combination hand, is for use regarding the judge's pen.

So you are right, not every noncircular (linear) has a weapon to it. Although at a very high level, TaoBoxer is probably correct any weapon should fit. However, at these low levels, it is not a one-to-one correspondence of the open hand to the weapon in the form. There are some movements that must be changed to accomodate the weapon usage.

I have seen footage of GM Liu playing the deerhorn knives and then with the same form playing the hooked swords. We have these segments on our xiao kai men tape and I will share them with you sometime.

I have never heard of the noncircular (linear) being a modification for Xing Yi players.

I will share with you information on the sword in an e-mail.

As I have said, you can probably shed more light on some of these forms. Yang Laoshi tends to be short on theory and big on practice (especially basics) and it has only been in the last 3 years that he has really opened up. We spent many years in xiao kai men and still do to this day. I once knew the two man xiao kai men fight but my partner left 3 years ago and I have since forgotten it (I'm angered at myself). It was a really good form with rotating arms, elbow strikes, leg sweeps, groin strikes. Very simple but effective.
Like I said in a previous post, I really concentrate on the 64 moving (nei shou zhang) and the conditioning exercises.

I really hope you can make it and we have time to sit and exchange some ideas.

Later.

[TheBigToad]

To be very honest I have read and have had read to me YiJing Chinese and have talked with a few YiJing scholars to make sure what I say is correct you wanna debate YiJing with me, tell me where I'm wrong, bring the noise...

There is nothing about what I wrote concerning Pre-brith and post birth Bagua that is totally wrong. In your system there may or not be a pre and post birth system, however the idea of circle walking restoring one's health to a place of prefect energy before one wasted(pre-say) it as he/she lived is a Daoist way of thinking and is way circle walking was used for at least a 1000 years in Daoist temples as a health only exercise.

As for intent. Well, welcome to club buddy. I'm about one of the only people that talk intent, intent behind movement, intent behind the Gua..So what are you doing, Shifu Painter is HUGE on intent, maybe you could learn something? Happy to see an article out on it maybe you'll bring more people around.

The point I was making is that its only conceptual if you don't work in the fact that one can be injured and sickly before birth, most of the people on this boards know crack so thats the term I used.

The idea of a post birth Bagua is after the fact, since we are doing Bagua after we are born everything we do is post birth and therefore there is no pre-birth, which is where the mistranslation comes from.

I'm in no way down playing Hsing-I Quan I done, studied, fought with and lived on it for 13 years now. I pretty much have a good foundation to say the least. It is hard fact that Hsing-I people where interested in Bagua, Bagua people weren't as interested in learning Hsing-I, linear methods came so Hsing-I people could conceptualize and rework Bagua into their already proficient Hsing-I matrix. If you took something from that and it twanged some insecurity of yours don't let it out on me.

This sounds more like an attack on Shifu Painter. As I can see where one post was made and another made just to make sure the dig on Painter gets in. I'm pretty sure your in Texas ... you think he is full of so much crap..simple go see him. That simple. Prove to me he doesn't have skill, that he made the whole system up, let me tell what will happen, I can play this both ways.

First you try and take a piece out of his ass and choke on it, thats a given the only constant in this equation. You can then tell me yes he is rooted and steeped in classical and traditional Chinese martial art which is beyond your understanding of how he came by this knowledge. Or.. you can still tell me he made it all up. And we can work on the assumption that he is a martial genius with some of the most natural and powerful skill in modern times.

I'm game either way dude.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[Braden]

Pre-heaven/birth/natal and post-heaven/birth/natal arrangements of the eight trigrams are often called Fu Xi's arrangement and King Wen's arrangment, respectively.

Hopefully that clears up some confusion for those who cannot find them in their books.

[Guandi]

>I'm pretty sure your in Texas ... you think he
>is full of so much crap..simple go see him.

TaoBoxer stated some time ago that he has already visited him.

Guandi

[TaoBoxer]

Someone sounds a little sensitive......

Where was there an attack in anything I said? If you're mad about the Gao Ti Sheng comment, sorry, but if the shoe fits..... As far as "Debating the I Ching," When did I say I was right and you were wrong?

Us poor white folk (and most non-chinese) are at a pretty big disadvantage when it comes to the cultural and historical nuances of China. This whole pre- post-birth thing is just another example. My Tai Chi teacher told me once, when asking him a similar question "Mmm Hmm...." Shaking his head, "This kind of thing all psychological. You forget about it....you want to learn taiji you DO TAIJI.... this just psychological trick...."

If ya wanna learn Ba Gua, just do it. A lot of this other stuff just falls into place after some time.

And yes Guandi, my stance on Doc Painter has been made, and I am not gonna rehash it here AGAIN.

[ELFdisciple]

I just wanted to step in here and answer you're questions, hopefully I will avoid the heat!

Tai Tzu Chuang Chuan is Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu, it was compiled in 960AD by Emperor Chao Kuang-Yin, sometimes called Tai Tzu. The art is a northern art made up of 50% original Tai Chi, 25% Hsing-Yi, and 25% Ba Qua. It was brought over to the US by Chao Yuh-Feng, the 35th Patriarch. He taught the art to Sifu Kash, who was known in China already as he used to be a monk at the Shaolin temple. Si Lum is learning the Five Family Fist from Sifu Kash and that is a separate art from ELF. Sifu Kash then became the 36th Patriarch and the first american to be ranked in the art. My instructor is William Seibert (Wei Shi Bei) and is the 37th Patriarch. I don't know much about the Five Family Fist, but my instructor told me it was a very good art, I look forward to learning it one day.

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[Sil Lum Palm]

Yes , William Siebert is in the Wei family, as I hope to be one day as well. The arts are seperate so when I am asking about questions pertaining to ba gua, Xing Yi, or Tai Chi I am merely looking for more info. Sometimes its hard to ask your instructor all theses questions , especially when its not pertaining to the subject matter of the class. I haven't learned a single thing about these arts yet except what has been discussed between other classmates and I. I know I will learn it in time, but I like to have a foot ahead if I can, it helps to be prepared.

My main interest is in the Five Family Fist/Five Animal system, however I know that I'll be moving on to the Tai Tzu system as well one day so I'm trying to learn as much about internal as possible. I've noticed that there is a lot of good Internal stylist here so that's why I asked. Also I know a couple of you out there may be practicing Tai Tzu ( Royal Dragon, ELF) , so I can usually get good answers there as well.

I heard about pre/post heaven-birth ba gua through "Power of the Internal Martial Arts" by B.K. Fratzis and I was wanting more info about the concept. I'm not shure what approach to Ba Gua is taken at our school.

[northstar]

ELFD: your description of taizu changquan confuses me! I thought Zhao Kuangyin devised a system of his own. I also believed that none of the arts of taijiquan, xingyiquan nor baguazhang had been invented in 960.
Also, Royal Dragon posted on the cyberkwoon site that Zhao was a master of Shaolin luohanquan before he invented the original changquan set.
????

[This message was edited by northstar on 07-14-01 at 12:10 PM.]

[ELFdisciple]

>I also believed that none of the arts of taijiquan, xingyiquan nor baguazhang had been invented in 960.

Here is where I am going to have problems with people, been there, done that. The system was compiled in 960AD when Emperor Chao ascended the throne, it is composed of Tai Chi, Ba Qua, and Hsing-Yi. Our lineage is a direct line back to the Emperor with the names of every Patriarch recorded on our scrolls. I don't care what anybody else claims about 'when' these arts were created. That is our history, we have some documents that back this up, although I'm sure people will dispute that.

>Also, Royal Dragon posted on the cyberkwoon site that Zhao was a master of Shaolin luohanquan before he invented the original changquan set.
????

The set you refer to was made after Tai Tzu began to compile information about the best forms of MA at the time. He used the three best forms of MA for the foundation and then built upon that. Now, you have the Tai Chi, Ba Qua, and Hsing-Yi in the junior ranks. In the black ranks you get some of the other things, monkey fist, kuntao, praying mantis, bodyguard (inheritor's only), etc. And you also work on perfecting the other arts as well and combine them with what you are learning.

As far as Tai Tzu being a master in Shaolin, I really couldn't tell you. I know that we have alot of Shaolin ties, even today.

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[northstar]

The general view among historians of CMAs seems to be that...
baguazhang was created by Dong Haichun (1813-1882)
xingyiquan is attributed in the xingyi legends to Yue Fei (1103-1141), but probably is the creation of Ji Longfeng, AKA Ji Jike, (late Ming)
taijiquan stems from the style Chen Wangting createdin the years after the fall of the Ming in 1644.
I have no personal stake in the histories of the neijia, but if your school has historical evidence about the antiquity of these styles there are a lot of people who would be very interested in finding out the truth. So even if you've been there done that, the struggle against ignorance is like the work of Sisyphos.

[Sil Lum Palm]

I can back up what ELF is saying. Go to our website,www.dokungfu.com , my Sifu is the retired 36th Patriarch of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. ELFD's teacher is the 37th, and I believe what he is saying is correct. The basic history is on the site. It may have Shaolin ties , and I'm shure it does since my Sifu is Lineage holder of Wong Ark-Yuey's Five Family Fist (Southern Sil Lum), as well as retired Patriarch of the ELF system and I believe that Shaolin and the ELF system have been kept close together for many years. ( ELF is taoist)

[Braden]

Can't... hold... back... much... longer.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

My experience with Baguazhang is that what falls into the category of pre-Heaven practices are the foundational Qigong exercises like inner-palms and extended circle walking (continuous circling as meditation). This is the work of body alignment, joint balancing and tissue opening.

Post-Heaven training is generally the palm changes and fighting drills, roushou and power emissions.

Gao Yisheng was in the Cheng Tinghua lineage wasn't he? Do any other Cheng lineages use linear drills like the Gao stylists? It seems to me that I saw a video of Lou Dexiu from Taiwan doing a couple of those drills, but no-one I've trained with uses them. The only Cheng Tinghua training I have experince with is some Qigong and the combined Xingyi Bagua sets (I got those from Andy Dale in Seattle, a student of Zhang Jie).

Hey Braden, I'm just down in Kingston these days. Mind if I take the first swing?

Given that I actually have professional credentials in Chinese history, especially the history of Chinese physical culture, I have to take objection to the story of the ELF school. It seems to be about as historically acurate as Batman. Your school may have "some documents" but the weight of evidence for development of these three styles from the 17th century and later is crushing in comparison. You can take offence, you can devote yourself to notions of loyalty, you can question my own integrity, but its like saying you have documentary evidence that the Declaration of Independance was actually written in renaissance Italy by Leonardo da Vinci. Fantastic claims engender incredulous responses. Once again I have to point out that I suggest nothing bad about the style or its practitioners, but the Chinese have a tradition of making false claims of antiquity to lend something an aura of legitimacy.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Sil Lum Palm]

Kevin, read the history and judge for yourself, I don't know enough about the system to argue about it. Also, is there ANYWAY POSSIBLE that we could have one post stay on topic?

[Sil Lum Palm]

Sorry, the adress is www.dokungfu.com (http://www.dokungfu.com) , then go to CFCWA Homepage and click on Martial Arts, you will see Emperor's Long Fist as a link, go there and you will get an accurate account of our system's history. E-Mail me with your thoughts afterwards and maybe you can help us clear this up. I have no credintials in any chinese history or anything like that so I'm in no means trying to act like I know it all. I'm learning.

[Braden]

Kevin - "Do any other Cheng lineages use linear drills like the Gao stylists?" Yep! I will be learning such a set that can be traced back to, at the very latest, Cheng TingHua -> Zhuo Yuxiang -> Yan Dehua (no connection to Gao at all, so far as my research has shown). Andrea Falk out in Victoria (www.thewushucentre.ca) out in Victoria has a book by Yan Dehua showing the form, for reference.

"Hey Braden, I'm just down in Kingston these days."

You're training with Eric Tuttle, right? How's that going? He's on my list of "better spend time with this guy" when my current instructor decides to send me out into the world. ;)

Sil Lum Palm - "Also, is there ANYWAY POSSIBLE that we could have one post stay on topic?"

I don't think it's so bad for the discussion to wander, after all, this is a discussion board. The alternative, in this case, would have been to start a new thread entitled "What I don't like about ELF," which I don't think reflects well on anyone.

But, since the topic has been "opened up for discussion" here...

I think alot of people are having some conceptual difficulties with your school, and it's not entirely due to the historical claims. I briefly went over the website you keep posting and listed a number of things that jump out to me as being "sketchy." I'm not the only one. The impression I get is that the people in that organization are desperate to be seen as legitimate, and have done some very questionable things to that end. Of course, I'll prelude this with the usual disclaimer. I'm not making any comment about the martial ability nor the personality of people affiliated with the organization. I've never had contact with any of them. I can only comment on the IMAGE of the organization.

So here goes.

1) The name, "...Chin Woo Martial Arts Association." Chin woo is a famous traditional kungfu association - which this school is NOT affiliated with. (for inquiries, check www.chinwoo.com (http://www.chinwoo.com)) They dodge the legal bullet in the first paragraph on the webpage: "The Chin Woo Association was originally founded in March of 1909...The Cloud Forest Chin Woo... was established in 1996." However, they make their implication clear on the "School/Group Memberships" link, under "Benefits of School Membership": "The school becomes a part of a famous historical organization founded in 1909..."

2) The sheer volume of styles. It's silly to consider anyone a master of such a vast number of styles. Taiji, xingyi, bagua, ELF, northern shaolin, southern shaolin, tzuranmen, chinna (whatever that is), 18 traditional weapons (whatever that is), and a number of specialized gongs. Not to mention that the instructors in question also claim to be arnis experts? That's certainly ALOT of experience, especially when (although they seem to speak of it boastfully), they average only 20 years of experience each.

3) The history of Emperor's Long Fist Taiji. Not just a variation on popularly accepted history, as found in most schools - but a complete refutation of all said history, and claims that only this line has recieved the true transmission - not only of taiji, but also of bagua and xingyi.

4) The history of the natural style. Again, a complete refutation of accepted history. It's got nothing to do with shuia chiao, nor is it a particularly old style. Accepted history traces it's foundation to Dwarf Xu perhaps 100 years ago.

5) The AS degree offered in traditional chinese medicine. What is an AS degree? Is this recognized by anyone? My research says no.

6) They sell "individual membership" to anyone, anywhere, who wants it. What are the benefits? "You become part of a historical organization founded in 1909..." Well, no you don't. "You can receive traditional, legitimate international ranking titles, conferred names..." Recognized and deemed official by who? So far as I can turn up - only the people doing the bestowing. "All ranks, titles, etc. are Internationally certified." See last comment. "You can be accepted into a real family genealogy and lineage." See every comment made so far. "Duan (Dan) and Ji (Kyu) Ranks." Since when did chinese systems have Dan and Kyu ranks? Basically, send them money, they give you a diploma. It gets worse. "Professor of Martial Arts Title $400.00 U.S" What is a Professor of Martial Arts? "Inheritor Titles and Titles of Honor $200.00 U.S." Yes, you can buy titles of honor. This is just a sample.

7) School/Group Memberships - see above.

8) Masters Degrees in TCM, Shaolin Kungfu, and ELF Kungfu. Again, who recognizes these degrees? Are they recognized in north america as masters degrees? Apparently not. Technically speaking, I can give you all masters degrees from "Braden's House of Knowledge", but they won't count for anything. Same deal here.

9) Member schools. Among the list: www.sijo.org (http://www.sijo.org) Need more be said?

10) The ridiculous titles. What is a Patriarch? The best I can guess is that this is supposed to be the title of a head monk in a taoist temple. They're not in a taoist temple, nor are they monks. And of course, they make a big deal about being Grand Masters, Masters, and 10th Dans, but who is the governing body that has given them any of these titles? The answer - they are.

11) Arrogant history qualms. They have the only transmission of true shaolin. They have the only transmission of true taiji. They have the only transmission of true xingyi. They have the only transmission of true bagua. They have the only transmission of true tzuranmen. PLEASE.

12) Too many affiliations with famous characters. Check the website. They claim affiliation and/or lineage with Bruce Lee, Jet Li, and Ku Yu Cheong among others. This is in addition to all of their other lineage claims. What's going on here?

13) Photo evidence. http://www.livingstonkungfu.com/ This is one of the "Patriarchs." Let's assume since this pictures were put up on the web from the source, that they're reasonable representations. His bagua circlewalking doesn't even pay lipservice to coiling or spiralling energies. For instance, it's clear to see his torso points directly forward. His weight is completely normal. In the one without the saber, his gua are closed. In the one with the saber, his "supporting" hand is doing the most basic error it can do - notably, preparing his fingers for dismemberment. I won't comment on the other pics, since they're not my style. But I will say that it seems to me that in all of his bow stances, he fails to bring the hips facing mostly forwards (instead having them tilted as feels comfortable to a beginner, to allow the rear leg to be held back). This is the very first mistake my instructor pointed out to me in my performance.

Again, I'm making no claim against the good-will nor the martial competancy of the instructors. However, something odd is definitely going on here. This is NOT the kungfu that the rest of the world knows.

[Sil Lum Palm]

Your an idiot. Flat out idiot. Complete idiot. Our school/style has plenty of rep without you. Idiot. Troll. Suck one... I'm done.
You're calling Chao Yu Feng and Wong Ark-Yuey fakes as well and thats a big claim from a little idiot. Go back to your cave troll until you figure out what it is your talking about, because you obviously have no idea.

[Sil Lum Palm]

Also, if my school is so fake or the rep is so bad then why do people keep getting reffered to us? What you have said has taken it a step too far I believe. You have crossed the line of discussion to reach conflict, which you obviously enjoy so much. Patriarch is like a head of a system, if you knew enough about kung fu to call people fake then you would know that.
Like I said, I'm done here. I see why the ones that know anything at all allways leave. This was a good forum, now everyone hollars fake like a freakin witch hunt. Who care's if you think my Kung Fu is fake, if you have anything to prove...prove it.

[Guandi]

>Who care's if you think my Kung Fu is fake, if
>you have anything to prove...prove it.

hopefully your martial ability is better than your ability to understand what other persons are writing...

Guandi

[northstar]

SLP - from what I recall of your other posts, you have something to contribute to this forum when it comes down to serious discussion of techniques. It's sad to see that your leaving when it ispointed out that your school's history runs to counter what most people consider to be the history of the neijia, and what serious historians of CMA claim about these things. CMA are full of made up stories, and we should take anything pre 19th century with a grain of salt. I don't see many WC people getting upset when someone questions the authenticity of the Ng Mui legend. No one has question the validity of what you have learned in terms of techniques.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Hey Braden, yes I'm in Kingston with Eric Tuttle. We are having an awesome time, Chen for breakfast, Xinyi Liuhe Quan to loosen up before the Yin Fu Baguazhang. We are going through Yin Fu's 64 changes, a great curriculum.

Ah, Zhao Yuxiang to Yan Dehua, very interesting. I'll have to look for Andrea's book.

SLP, sorry if your feelings have been hurt, but I think you need to look beyond what your teachers have told you. They may be skilled and they may well intentioned, but someone has been misled. By the way, we have addressed the key topic while we've been raining on the Elven parade. ;)

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[ELFdisciple]

I will grant that some of the things my organization say are 'sketchy'. I will admit that some of the things my organization does is 'sketchy'. However, I know kung-fu. In the picture he may not look correct, but he is posing for a picture. We teach this art correctly, the twisting of the body, the circular motions, etc, etc.

Yes our claims are outrageous, but its the little things that make me believe. Faith? Perhaps. But please allow that history is not always completely accurate and can be rewritten at times. Just because something is written in a book doesn't mean its true, and just because a man claims a lineage doesn't mean its true. ELF has long made its claims on the history of the art and its origins, but nobody bothers to listen to us because in their minds they have their truth already.

I made my judgement on this art long ago, I have seen nothing like it, and its works. So, I will not argue, but I will not claim anything different just to sooth the ego of the world. All the forms of KF that I have seen are excellent and I am looking forward to learning some of their styles. But I will not renounce my art, it has been proven to me and that is enough. Rip into it and me if you will, I am past the point of caring.

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[Braden]

ELFdiscipline - Thank you for your reasonable reply. I never suggested anything contrary to what you have just said.

[ELFdisciple]

Well, thank you for not ripping into me, I'm pleasantly surprised. :)

ELFdisciple

Direct Disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist Kung-Fu

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[wujidude]

Gao Yisheng studied with Zhou Yuxiang (spelling?)for three years or so before Zhou took him to Cheng Tinghua for more training (not much, as Cheng was killed in the Boxer Rebellion of 1900 shortly afterwards). Later, according to his own account, Gao met up with one of those fabled, wandering and mysterious Taoists, fella by the name of Song, who was supposed to have taught him the 64 linear "post-Heaven/natal" application forms of Gao-style baguazhang. No one else seems to have received the benefit of directly studying with this Song guy.

Yan Dehua was a student of Zhou, which makes him a gong-fu brother of Gao (I'm not sure whether he was senior or not). Other students of Zhou also studied linear forms--they are not unique to Gao. My own understanding (from a guy who studied in Taiwan and did a little research into the matter) is that in all probability Gao learned a number of basic linear application forms from Zhou and reworked/"improved" on them, eventually developing a nice round Yijing number of 64 of them.

I've seen some of these Gao-style linear sets. Luo Dexiu's students here in the U.S. (including Marcus Brinkman in Boulder, Tim Cartmell in LA and Bernie Langan in SF)have Luo on a seminar tour where some of these forms are being taught. Allen Pittman, who learned these sets from Hung I-mien in Taiwan, has completed a book on the 64 Gao-style linear forms which has been in "the hands of the publisher" for the past several months.

Cheng Tinghua seems to have worked on some linear bagua forms of his own, in conjunction with his xingyi playmates. I think it was Rockwood who mentioned (some months ago) that his former teacher in Michigan (Victor Chao?) taught 23 linear bagua forms out of the Cheng Tinghua lineage (my memory is not clear on this one). In any event, the Nine Palaces lineage from Liu Xinhan and Wang Wen-kuei does have linear forms directly reflecting xingyiquan influence. Andy Dale's linear forms from Zhang Jie come out of Liu's teaching. It would be interesting to find out from Kevin's friend David Meikle whether his teacher Yang Guo Tai (in Vancouver)teaches linear application sets; Yang is in the Nine Palaces lineage through Wang Wen-kuei.

The Yin Fu lineages include their own separate, and distinct, linear form sets. I've only seen a few of these.

Respectfully submitted,

Wujidude

Direct Disciple to the First Patriarch of Everything

Major Dude

[TaoBoxer]

I worked out with Victor Chao in michigan once....good guy.....very knowledgable. He told me they did the Gao style bagua in addition to I Chuan and they had 64 linear sets.

In the Ba Gua I practice we have 32 linear and 32 circular. This is the system that RW Smith taught. My teacher was with him for a time, then finished the system with another man who was from the same lineage, it branched off at I believe Chang Chao Tung, the Hung Brothers teacher.

[Braden]

wujidude - thanks for the info!

[count]

This graphic brought the whole pre, post, heaven, birth, circular, linear, yin-yang, trigram, bagua thing together for me. Seeing it written out made it clear where the 64 palms is. What do you think?

http://privacyplease.net/images/prepost.jpg

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Thanks very much Wujidude. You are the Dude!

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Rockwood]

Hi Wujidude-
You were mentioning how Gao Yisheng is famous for the 64 straight line sets he developed. I think you are right that they are his creation based on the essentials of the Cheng Tinghua school. As I understand it, the 8 palm changes of Gao's system are all extrapolations of the single, double and smooth body palm changes. The 64 linear sets are all break downs of the corresponding circle set. When Luo Dexiu was here the last couple of weeks he taught the 5th group of straight line forms, th e "8 elbows" set that corresponds with the 5th palm change, "Turning Body Palm". Gao's system is really quite brilliant, the structure allows for deep investigation of each basic priciple in circle, linear and partner practice. Luo's Baguazhang is the most beautiful, and most direct and powerful in application that I have ever seen. All are taught for use in meeting an opponent, closing with him and destroying his structure.
I have seen Yan Dehua's book, and it is hard to find similarity of his techniques to Gao's straight line forms. I would assume that they both developed their technique independently based on the Baguazhang that they learned from Zhou.
Perviously I studied the Sun Xikun style Baguazhang from my first teacher Chris Johnson. He learned in Ann Arbor from Gabriel Chin (not Victor Chao). This system has 23 (possibly more) straight line drills that are more similar to Yan Dehua's applications, much shorter drills, simple 2 or 3 move applications, not the longer linear sets that Gao's system does.
I have seen some Yin Fu Baguazhang, their linear forms are of a much more Shaolin looking variety, many more moves, longer, more complicated, and moving around more. Some say they are based on Lohan, but I have never seen Lohan, so I couldn't say. The Cheng Tinghua lineage straight line forms are much more like Xingyiquan, particularly Gao's. They are short, and go back and forth on a line, the crossover is very clear if you have seen Xingyiquan before.
As an aside to Taoboxer, the Hong family learned from Zhang Chunfeng.

-Jesss

[wujidude]

Thanks for the correction about your Michigan teacher, Rockwood.

The thing I like about Luo is that he not only thoroughly studied/studies the Gao system, but also broadened his investigation of bagua with other teachers, looking for the deeper principles and practical applications.

As an aside to your aside, the Hong Bros did in fact learn from Zhang Junfeng, who in turn learned his baguazhang from Gao. It's my understanding that Luo learned at least a little Gao style bagua from Zhang Junfeng before he died, although most of Luo's training was with the Hongs (especially Hong I-hsiang).

I also heard that Luo is working on a series of Gao-style baguazhang tapes, newer productions that will be more complete than his earlier tapes produced by Dan Miller that featured Bill Tucker and Tim Cartmell. I don't have any details on these tapes, though.

[Zhin]

This post came up as a part of the KF/Abel saga.

I just wanted to add something to it.

Genki Ryu does not translate as Spirit Dragon.

Unless my japanese sucks way worse then I think it does, Genki can be translated roughly as healthy feeling, and has the implication of enthusiasm. In Japan, "Genki?" is a common method of asking if someone is well.

[Braden]

Since this thread is active again...

I recalled the other day that the old baguazhang tutorial at www.emptyflower.com (http://www.emptyflower.com), which featured David Meikle, demonstrated a technique which was exactly the same as the fourth technique from Yan Dehua's set.

... just could be pertinent to some points wujidude brought up.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm about to commit political suicide here.

I as a Tai Tzu practitioner myself and being loosly afilliated with this perticular line "I" DON'T BUY MUCH of thier BS!!!

Tai Tzu was the ORIGINAl 32 Long Fist form of Chao, Kuang Yin. Later, his desecndents develped a Southern style to compliment the Norhtern style. Chao, Kuang Yin was also said tom practice the Six Stepp Monkey Boxing and this is also taught in many lines of Tai Tzu. The Tai Tzu style WAS the foundational training of many masters that later went on to found thier own styles, North Mantis being one of those styles.

I'm told that the Chao Family also kept a closed door system that was stricty internal. My research seems to indicate it was based on PARTIAL traning Choa, Kuang Yin recived from Chen Po, founder of Li Hu, Ba Fa. Our Taji suposedly dates back to 960-976 AD. And the taoist Natural Fist. Our 36(sometimes called 37) move for is IDENTICAL to the Chen Man Ching form up to the 8th or 9th move, then it gets radically different. Or 64 move form is basically practicing the first 8 postures of Taji in 8 diferent direction with linking movements in between.

I am told that our Taji was taught to Chen Wang Ting by General Jiqiuan, the same that wrote the "History of boxing".

In my own personal research, I once discovered a writing stating that Cheng Zhanfeng was a 4th generation student of Chen Po's (Li Hu, Ba Fa) line. If this is true, then there is a link, but to say Tai Tzu's "closed door" system is the original Taiji is still arrogant, especially since Li Hu, Ba Fa came first AND Chao, Kuang Yin WAS Chen Po's student at one time.

In an interesting note, Grand Master Livingston discoverd this link to Li Hu, Ba fa as well, when he brought it up to Chao, Yuh Feng and Grand Master Kash they totally denied the connection and acted insulted at the discovery. This story has brought questions in my mind about the organasation.

THEN, about 9 months later, Grand Master Kash basically just GAVE Grand master Livingstons 37 generation inheritance to William Siebert, a TWO YEAR student in the style. at the time, he did not even have our 64 move form and from what I'm told did not know any more of the style than I do now.

Also, if you look on thier "New" lineage chart, Livingston is listed under John Kash and "collateral students", instead of directly under Chao, Yuh Feng and next to Kash where he belongs.


"I" have copys of many of Grand Master Livingston's certificates (due to past burnings, I requested them right off). He is listed as a 9th degree Master and PRESIDENT and co owner of the Cloud Forest Chin Woo association in 1995.

In 1996 on his certificate documenting his promotion to Grand Master, John Kash is only listed as vice president. I also have a copy of a informational document listing Grand Master Livingston as the 37 generation inheritor, a position bestowed on him by Chao, Yuh Feng in !!1993!!!

How Grand Master Kash can now YEARS later bestow that SAME position on a two year student is BEYOND ME!!

Based on the documents "I" have copys of, "37th" genetation inheritor William Seibert is either a fake, or a victem of fraud.

I myself take great comfort in the fact that Grand Master Livingston is now on his own and running his own Cloud Forest branch (now called "Lion's Roar spirit" brance of Cloud forest).

I fully understand his descision to persue his own line, seperate from Kash.

As for the legitmacy of the art, I have researched that too, and We do teach forms and movements consistant with other Tai Tzu lines in Taiwan and China. Only the formerly "closed Door" family system differs, but that is still consistant with the legands of our founders martial experiance. I Do belive our taji goes back to 960 AD., or close to it.

IF we have any Bagua like or Hsing I like movements, I have not seen them yet, and they are most likly incomplete Li Hu, Ba fa training our founder recived from Chen Po, NOT!! the actual styles of Bagua and Hsing I.

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[northstar]

RD, I admire your passion for your style! You may have committed political suicide with the Cloud Forest People, but I believe you gained a lot of points with the people on this board (so whenever there's a fight on the Internet, we just might be around :D ). A question: how do you go about conducting your research into the history of your style? Where do you access documents, etc? Do you know Chinese? Just curious, since I'm also interested in CMA history.

[ELFdisciple]

Great, now I am suppose to defend my art from my own people. RD, you are a product of GM Livingston's teachings and know nothing of what happened. The same is said for me, I will not claim to know what is going on. But I do know that my instructor IS the 37th Patriarch and he IS the BEST martial artist I have seen next Sifu Kash, and all the other great KF masters. You sh*t on my instructor and his knowledge without knowing anything about him. You claim to know things, you claim to be right, but all I see is selfish, foolish pride. The people on this forum have acted, for the most part, like childish little boys on the playground screaming at each other that their Sifu could beat up my Sifu. I am both hurt and disappointed in what I thought was a MA brotherhood. Rather than make allowances for people and their views and letting people live and let live, you trash each other to put yourselves one notch higher on the social ladder. None of you are my brothers, you are all strangers to me and my world. RD, if you feel this way, split from us then and form you're own style. At least then we can try to salvage our reputation that you have tainted with you're poisoned words. I do not refer to you're knowledge, and I do not deny the truth, but you have attacked the very people you should be defending. I can see now that MA is a bit of a lonely journey, everyone is too selfish to allow it to be otherwise. Its all about kicking each other around just so you can look cool. Well, the MA world can kiss my ass, I don't need this in my life. My arts are excellent, and I have seen many. My instructor is one of the best, and I have seen many. And I don't need to prove this to anyone.

ELFdisciple

Lineage holder and direct disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[Royal Dragon]

You are sadly mistaken, "I" was a personal guest of Sifu Livingston At HIS HOUSE the week this all went down, DON'T tell me the pain I saw in his eyes wile he was sitting on his couch was from some sort of BS lie. KASH totally back stabbed the man.

And for your information Livingston DID seperate from Kash's organasation when Siebert called him up and "Tried" to tell him he was now his [Livingston's] Seinor. Not only that, but holding his title as well. Chao, Yuh Feng himself bestowed that title on Livingston. He WAS the 37th generation inheritor of the Chao family style. KAsh sold him out for Ca. On top of that, Kash gave Seibert a HAND MADE sword that Livingston had specially made for him as a birthday present once, thus trashing a 20+ year friendship at the same time. Now, they suposedly reconciled, but Livingston STILL maintains his own line now, I wonder why?

Just so you know, "I" have copys of certificates. AND I can look at dates and signitures, you can't.

Trust me something don't wash this Sunday.

I don't want to make enemy's here, but my name got dragged into this mess, and I had to speak up to maintain my integrity. This board is VERY intolerant of frauds and I can't afford to get sucked into something that My Sifu has already taken stepps to distance us from.
If you are devoted to the Tai Tzu style, I sugjest you just sit back and observe from as many angles as you can. If you are devoted to your Sifu, then hate me.

So far as my reasearch goes, I don't speak Chinese, but I have a library of over 100 tiltes in books alone.

Also, you guys may remeber my little "Tai Tzu, a rare Kung Fu style" add I spammed the net with a few years ago? I made some AWESOME contacts in the Tai Tzu world off of that. I found some of Kash's old students, as well as students who thought THEY were the only Tai Tzu line in the US. just like we did. I bout ANY video or book I could get my hands on that even MENTIONED our system. I spent probually 100's of HOURS communcating through E-Mail to Tai Tzu practitioners WORLD WIDE. I even found a Shaolin Monk in Austrailia (who's sending me video on ALL our external forms by the way :)

Research is DIFFICULT at best, but THANK GOD FOR THE INTERNET!!! He, He

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[Zhin]

Hey RD,

I have to applaud you for doing your own research. When I first saw all your posts ages, ago, I wrote you off. More correctly, I did my own research and wrote you off.

I don't agree with everything you say to this day, but I'm glad you are taking the time to check things out on your own.

As of ELF disciple, even if everything you say is correct, it still doesn't change the fact that your teacher can't speak japanese, and shouldn't be teaching some garbage "spirit dragon" form. It weakens your case severely.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah,
To be honest with you, I don't buy some of the things I said back then anymore either. I still think orb taji goes back to 960-976AD. but I think it was our 64 move form now. It is designed to drill basics over and over agian, and it is similar to what the "Experts" say Taji might have looked like during the time of Cheng Zhan-Feng.

As for the Chen WangTing learning Tai Tzu, I never found any evidence he learned our internal system, only our external systems. That does'nt mean our Taji did'nt influance Chen style, but that I think comes from Kash anyway so I'm not really promoting it anymore, incase I'm REALLY REALLY wrong. I'll update my site later down the road, when I get Front Page to work, It's too hard to do in Word.

RD


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[ELFdisciple]

RD, what the hell did I ever do to you? This thread got brought back up and suddenly you attacked my instructor, for what reason?!! You are trying to argue something with me that YOU know nothing about! And just the same, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT EITHER!!!!! Why do you attack my instructor?!! YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HIM!!! Yes, he got the title of Patriarch after only two years in the art, even he admits that. But instead of refusing to accept that honor he is working hard to be worthy of it. However the man has 29 years of MA experience and more belts than I can remember, so I don't think that he is completely unqualified.

So, for EVERYONE OUT THERE, let me say this. I DON'T CARE WHO IS RIGHT OR WHO IS WRONG. I am learning Tai Tzu Chuang Chuan and Genki Ryu Do Karate. I don't care about you're translations or you're opinions on lineage or who is the best or who is worthy of what title. I don't care what you know, what rank you are or who you learned from. Say what you want about me. Say what you want about my instructor, I don't care anymore. Actions speak louder than words and I have seen what my instructor teaches and it is the best that I have found. I have been many places in this world and I have seen many things, what he teaches is real and he is really good. If you don't believe me, come visit the school and see what we do, all are welcome. Maybe Sifu Kash is jerking us around, maybe not, but I don't care. His Kung-Fu is excellent and that is what I will learn.

That being said, goodbye everyone.

ELFdisciple

Lineage holder and direct disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[TaoBoxer]

lol...... Yeah. THAT is the kind of moral character I'd like to see in my 38th generation chairman of the grand pooba council.

Stick to star wars figures and dungeons and dragons reinacments.

"When you can't trust Slog the Barbarian...who can you trust??"

[wujidude]

Braden:

I remember the pictorial Meikle did with DeVere at the emptyflower site. I think you're right about it also being shown in Yan Dehua's book (but I don't have that with me as I write).

To me that just speaks of the cross-fertilization between the various Cheng Tinghua schools. There are only so many techniques/moves possible with the human body. David studies with Yang Guo Tai in Vancouver, an excellent teacher whose own teacher Su Jin Beo (I think that's the spelling) studied with Wang Wenkuei of Liu Bin's 9 Palaces lineage (Wang was an older gong fu brother to the more well-known Liu Xing Han). Sun Lutang played with the Liu Bin crowd. It's likely that Zhou, another student of Cheng Tinghua's along with Sun and Liu, practiced with them as well (say, mid- to late-1890s). So if Yan Dehua, a student of Zhou, described the same technique as Meikle executed in the pictorial, that's not so surprising. Both Yan and Meikle can ultimately trace their training lineage back to Cheng Tinghua.

Interesting stuff. Hey, if you do make the move out to Vancouver, B.C., be sure to look up Yang Guo Tai. It'll be different from your Jiang Rongqiao stuff, but you'll probably dig it.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok Guys,
I can see you got blind sided by this whole thing. In another thread (Check my message board, the link to it is there), both MY credibility and that of one of my students as well as my Sifu was going down the toilet due to reprecussions resulting from the actions of David Kash. The accusations of fraudulant teachings and misguided loyaltys HAD to be delt with imedieately. Unfortunetly, in order to preseve my integrity I was forced to publish some of the inner political dirt responsible for the spilt of our line into two branches.

It's well know with in the organasation that your instructor Bought his title from Kash for a large sum of money. Kash back stabbed the legitimate holder of that title in the processs. Your instructor is NOT recognised by the Chinese comunity as the 37th generation patriacrch, Edgar Livingston is. Because of this, there is much tension about the situation.

I had opted to stay out of the situation, and did so untill MY credibility and the credibilty of one of my students was directly challenged over my connections to your branch through my Sifu (the former Co-owner of Cloud Forest). It was then, and only then that I brought this situation to pubilc light.

I never meant to hurt you guys, but often in situations like this, shining light on the truth is the best thing to do.

I hope we can eventually recover from this and resume being friends some day.

Gian Lencioni


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com