wing chun and tournaments

[sir-elrik]

Can anyone provide me witha video of the application of wing chun in a fight. I see people arguing that they know wing chun and attend tournaments( san da, NHB u name it) but when i see the video , i see litle or non at all wing chun.

[AmanuJRY]

Watch out, that's a trolling question.;)

fights look like fights, how can you clearly define where WC training affects the outcome.

It's not going to look like WC if it goes to the ground, and WC doesn't have very many distance (gap closing) techs like boxing, savate or MT.

So why doesn't it look like traditional WC?....because it's mixed with other techs, you have to move more naturally and fluidly in a fight and most importantly you need to use what works (before anyone misinterpets that statement, it's not to mean that WC isn't effective, just not in all ranges and situations).

[tjwingchun]

Watch out, that's a trolling question.;)

fights look like fights, how can you clearly define where WC training affects the outcome.

It's not going to look like WC if it goes to the ground, and WC doesn't have very many distance (gap closing) techs like boxing, savate or MT.

So why doesn't it look like traditional WC?....because it's mixed with other techs, you have to move more naturally and fluidly in a fight and most importantly you need to use what works (before anyone misinterpets that statement, it's not to mean that WC isn't effective, just not in all ranges and situations).

We have differing viewpoints here, which derive from different life experieces. For years I have been teaching 'ENTRY TECHNIQUES', that is when closing the gap how to get from no arm contact to one, and from one to two armed contact, while kicking out to contact legs. Whether using the man sau (asking hand) from Biu Gee or the double gan sau off the dummy, closing the range is a vital issue in fighting dealt with within these forms concepts and principles.

'Fluidity'? I think chi sau provides the perfect vehicle to train for 'fluidity' while in contact with your opponent, learning how to cope with a stronger, heavier foe while they are trying their best to hit you, of having to cope with a smaller, faster type are inherent practices that provide varied learning situations.

Understand the forms for the structures and isolated body mechanics and applications to find out how to move 'naturally' when using the skills practiced in chi sau.

I agree with you AmanuJRY on how a fight looks, sir-elrik you can go to the www.alanorr.com site to scan through their library to see if you can spot a classic Wing Chun technique, but I would not hold my breath. I believe I have said before how in Alex's first fight it was a Biu Gee uppercut that ended the contest, some might call it a Dempsey "Shovel hook", but it did not look classically from anywhere, however I could see where Alex used the co-ordination that that part of Biu Gee trains in applying the punch.

I see Wing Chun as a method of understanding the individual body parts and how to use the energies in violent confrontations, I teach shoulder charges, crashing in with hips to disrupt stances, all application depends upon specific circumstances, my tan sau would not look like one from the form as it will be dealing with a specific line of attack which has intent and not from someone who has three arms and one leg! :D

If I see any clips in my passage around the net I will post them here.

[AmanuJRY]

We have differing viewpoints here, which derive from different life experieces. For years I have been teaching 'ENTRY TECHNIQUES', that is when closing the gap how to get from no arm contact to one, and from one to two armed contact, while kicking out to contact legs. Whether using the man sau (asking hand) from Biu Gee or the double gan sau off the dummy, closing the range is a vital issue in fighting dealt with within these forms concepts and principles.

'Fluidity'? I think chi sau provides the perfect vehicle to train for 'fluidity' while in contact with your opponent, learning how to cope with a stronger, heavier foe while they are trying their best to hit you, of having to cope with a smaller, faster type are inherent practices that provide varied learning situations.

Understand the forms for the structures and isolated body mechanics and applications to find out how to move 'naturally' when using the skills practiced in chi sau.

I agree with you AmanuJRY on how a fight looks, sir-elrik you can go to the www.alanorr.com site to scan through their library to see if you can spot a classic Wing Chun technique, but I would not hold my breath. I believe I have said before how in Alex's first fight it was a Biu Gee uppercut that ended the contest, some might call it a Dempsey "Shovel hook", but it did not look classically from anywhere, however I could see where Alex used the co-ordination that that part of Biu Gee trains in applying the punch.

I see Wing Chun as a method of understanding the individual body parts and how to use the energies in violent confrontations, I teach shoulder charges, crashing in with hips to disrupt stances, all application depends upon specific circumstances, my tan sau would not look like one from the form as it will be dealing with a specific line of attack which has intent and not from someone who has three arms and one leg! :D

If I see any clips in my passage around the net I will post them here.

Just for the record, I'm referring to 'Entry techniques' that I have been exposed to (taught or witnessed), if you have been trying something new I'd be delighted to see it.

With that in mind, the techs for 'entering' or closing the gap that I have witnessed use a tight WC stance in the outside range (outside of contact that is) this seems too slow and fixed to be able to 'flow' (this is my term for coordinating the footwork with the hand techs into a unified, natural movement). Now, I understand that not all WC use the same footwork, so, obviously there are some out there who don't understand this drawback. From the lineage I came from and their views on footwork, I had to 'learn' (from my own conclusion) to be more natural in the outside range and Escrima and now Savate have shown me concepts and techniques that improved me in that area. Some lines of WC have footwork that is already more like the Escrima and Savate footwork, these people probably have less issue with this.

Also, unless you spar periodically, people don't see the dynamic of moving in and out of each others ranges. It is highly unlikely, unless you have your opponent completely out-skilled (or if it is the goal of both you and your opponent, like in WC/Chi Sau), that you will be able to close and stick (and even then, what about the clinch and getting thrown), so being 'fluid' would also mean being able to move in and out of the various ranges of fighting and not missing a beat.

Basically, trapping range is WC's 'comfort zone' and many are not able to do much outside that 'comfort zone'.

But, suit yourself is my motto. If you can develop good outside movement, entering techniques and grappling techniques from WC, more power to ya.
I'll be looking for those WC techs at the next UFC.:D

[sir-elrik]

Watch out, that's a trolling question.;)

fights look like fights, how can you clearly define where WC training affects the outcome.

It's not going to look like WC if it goes to the ground, and WC doesn't have very many distance (gap closing) techs like boxing, savate or MT.

So why doesn't it look like traditional WC?....because it's mixed with other techs, you have to move more naturally and fluidly in a fight and most importantly you need to use what works (before anyone misinterpets that statement, it's not to mean that WC isn't effective, just not in all ranges and situations).\

in my understandings wing chun have gap closing techniques. I dnt understand why it has to be mixed with something else (maybe ground techniques sound goods if u want to stand a chance in MMA event) it has specific moves if u cnt use it dnt claim i fought with wing chun. state something different.

especially i cnt understand high kicks or low kicks (in MT fashion). we dnt hv staff like that for a specific reason.

Offcourse i hd never step in a ring and i dnt know hw i wl react in such occasion ( i hv a tedency for hooks).

still it dsnt make sense

[toddwc]

\

in my understandings wing chun have gap closing techniques. I dnt understand why it has to be mixed with something else (maybe ground techniques sound goods if u want to stand a chance in MMA event) it has specific moves if u cnt use it dnt claim i fought with wing chun. state something different.

especially i cnt understand high kicks or low kicks (in MT fashion). we dnt hv staff like that for a specific reason.

Offcourse i hd never step in a ring and i dnt know hw i wl react in such occasion ( i hv a tedency for hooks).

still it dsnt make sense



Heya i guess it all depends on who your training with and there ideas some are more bound to what there teachers have taught them and wait for them to say whats WC and whats not and others are more open to expand there knowledge within the principals of there system.:D But what do i know i just train to someday achieve the goals i wish to pursue.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Would like to put my two cents into this subject starting with my usual points about wing chun being almost exclusively an infighting system - but with an additional point or two about wing chun being perhaps more of a concept based system than a technique based one - compared to most other systems.

If you can just accept my idea about "short range only" as a working hypothesis for a moment (assuming you don't agree that it is)...then the evidence I would use to support this idea must also include the VERY FACT that it's hard to find a "wing chun application in a fight" as the original post on this thread postulates.

What I'm saying is...it's hard to find it in a real spontaneous fight (or realistic fighting tournament) because only certain parts of "real" fighting will include very close quarter striking wherein it's safe to completely face your centerline to the opponent and/or use your two arm simultaneous (or near simultaneous) attack and defense moves that don't really include much in the way of round strikes and round kicks...whereupon you might actually get to see very specific wing chun moves like pak da, lop da, bong sao, kan sao, garn sao, the front heel kick, etc.

It's mainly in some some sort of demo or drill atmosphere that you get to see these moves coming out all over the place - because they're usually being done against a very committed straight punch of some sort, or a haymaker hook, a very committed roundhouse kick, or whatever...NOT BEING THROWN IN COMBINATION AND NOT SET UP THE WAY A GOOD BOXER/KICKBOXER, etc. might do it.

But the drill/demo atmosphere is not how most of today's skilled fighters will attack you...perhaps against a basic street fighter type this might be the case - but against people with more subtle movement and skillful attacks - whether they be kicks, punches, elbows, knees, attempts to clinch, shoots for the legs and more likely some combination of some or all of the above...

now you're talking about needing MORE long range fighting strategies and techniques in order to compete - or to bring the fight successfully into a closer stand up striking range wherein the aforementioned wing chun moves might be more readily used and recognized as such.

But certain wing chun CONCEPTS AND PRINCIPLES CAN BE USED from other ranges besides the one mentioned - if not the exact "techniques" usually associated with wing chun per se...hence it's possible to adapt the centerline/centraline/shoulder line principle(s) and the concept of two arms always being used simultaneously - along with preference for straight line striking (to name 3 basic wing chun principles/concepts)...

these things can be adapted to longer range fighting (ie.- no bridge of any kind), or in the clinch, or even in certain circumstances on the ground (ie.- using some "chi sao" type moves with your arms/hands while caught in someone's guard)...AS LONG AS you're willing to be creative and also put round strikes, round kicks, and other types of footwork/body motion into the mix as well.

Hence it might be hard to pick out a specific wing chun "technique" that you're "used" to seeing - but the concepts and principles are still there nonetheless.

To a point.

And imo after that point it's time to incorporate actual grappling/wrestling concepts and techniques in clinch or ground mode - and before that "point" - as I've said - use some boxing, kickboxing, or perhaps some Thai boxing concepts and techniques because you're now in a longer range wherein directly facing the centerline to your opponent's center of mass is not the way to go - because you will be picked off by his longer range strikes, kicks, feints, mobility of footwork, etc. while also showing him too much target.