Okay...

[Daniel Madar]

The whole pressure point fighting controversy in the main forum is driving me nuts.

The reason why it's driving me nuts is this:

Other than Erle Montaigue, has anyone else ever studied Taiji as a pressure point fighting technique?

I've known people or communicated with people who've studied under:

Kuo Lien Ying--guan ping Yang
Mah Liu Liang--Wu Jien Chuan
Hao Sao Liu--Hao/Wu
Wang Xian--Chen
Chi Xi Shin--Yin fu bagua
Liang Qiang Ya--Fu bagua
Cheng Man Ching--Yang/Mi Chuan yang

and none of them has ever mentioned either bagua or taiji as a dian xue art. As a point of fact, it has been my experience that external stylists tend to study dian xue, while internal stylists focus on being able to kill someone just by punching them.

Now, I don't really care about erle montaigue or his credibility, or his students. I've enjoyed sam's posts, but it's always driven me nuts. Can anyone other than these gentlemen corroborate this? I'm simply curious. And I'm also aware this seems like an inflammatory post, but I can deal with it if you can.

Merciless is Mercy.

[count]

Start with this thread about dimak in baguazhang. (http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=123191102&m=4941951461)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

[Ky-Fi]

DM,

I study at YMAA, and Dr. Yang does teach that there is a Dian Mai and Dian Xue aspect to Taiji at it's highest levels. I think in his book Taiji Chin Na he gives some basic examples of it--most of them coming after you've already got control of them in a lock. From my limited experience, though, I don't think it would be practical without a VERY high level of skill in the more common aspects of the art. I know even with chin na training, there can be a big difference between the stiffness, strenght, and flexibility and sensitivity of the limbs and joints of various people, and I have been told that a certain small percentage of chin na techniqes will be ineffective against various individuals--and I find that it's difficult enough to be able to apply chin na against someone resisting. I would think that would be more so with Dian Mai.

I'm fairly sure that in the full YMAA Taiji curriculum, which I believe would take over 10 years to complete---there's no listing of Dian Mai techniques in the training or testing. So, I guess to answer your question, yes, I think those techniques are present in the art at the highest levels, but no, I have not been taught Taiji AS a pressure point fighting art. Again, no offense to anyone who's been taught otherwise, that's just where I'm coming from.

[Daniel Madar]

Count: Thanks for the thread, but the majority of posters there are students of Mr. Montaigue. I believe that the only non student of Mr. Montaigue that posted was Kevin Wikse.

Ky-Fi: Just out of curiousity, do you think it's possible the Dian Xue aspects of the YMAA curriculum might come from one of Yang's other arts, such as White Crane?

Merciless is Mercy.

[Ky-Fi]

DM, I know that Dr. Yang has specifically said (in the book, too, I think) that he's adapted some of the softer and more circular chin na techniques from his White Crane into the Taiji he teaches, so you may very well be correct--I'm not positive.

[Mark M]

I've been to a few Montague seminars here in NJ. In fact his main rep here in the US used to study with us. He shows the points that he is working on with each posture and concentrates on getting them right. My teacher does not dwell on the points, but when we go over postures, the strikes and grabs are getting the same points. She emphasizes this by either digging in with the finger tips or giving a little shot to make you take note of the of the sensitivity. Never brought up specifically as "point strikes", it is just part of the application and this is the way you do it.

[ELFdisciple]

My art (Emperor's Long-Fist) is a compilation of Tai Chi, Ba Qua, and Hsing-I. We use dimak points with a technique called 'secret sword' and also with the Tai Chi sword. Although we are not taught many points, still it is taught and it is part of the original art from china. I hope this helps to clear the air a bit.

ELFdisciple

Lineage holder and direct disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor's Long-Fist

Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat

[TaoBoxer]

I started learning about internal kung fu by reading RW smiths books. In Masters and Methods he tells a story about...I believe Hung I Shiang... One day just prior to his leaving Taiwan Smith went to see the man and he told him about "dotting" or point hitting. He drew dots on smiths body where the most effective points were and told him what time of day, etc, when those points were active. He tried to get Smith to wash them off before he left, but Smith found a way around it and recorded the points when he got home.

So yes, Internal stylists do this. I think Internal stylists are uniquely equiped for the practice due to the softness and sensitivity in our applications. I have studied Shiatsu and Tui Na, and now several years of Ba Gua, and here is my take on point striking:

Take a dot...smaller than George Bush's Chad.... and glue it to an acupuncture point on a friend. First...which point? how do you know which will work? Do you really know what effect you want to achieve? Now......free-spar. You must bait him into exposing his chad, and you must strike it, accurately, at full speed. But...how do you hit it? you must probe it, activate it, manipulate it...all in active combat. This is on top of a deep philosophical knowledge about acupuncture and meridian manipulation. If you can do this, then you may be qualified to really talk about Dian Xue.

Hung I Shiang was a master healer and practiced bonesetting and herbology. He had spent a life time learning his craft. I don't think there are too many guys with websites up that can claim that level of skill or training........ I sure know I can't. I think this is one of those red herrings we all like to gripe about (like Is Chi Real?) rather than train.

[TaoBoxer]

Now were point stiking with swords....nice. I am sure the REALLY SHARP STEEL needs the added boost of dim mak.......

[Esteban]

Hi Daniel, Mark,

well, imho, point-striking is part of chin na, and an inherent part of CMAs --as much, I'd add, as strangling and breaking bones. I think, though, that what's really driving people nuts is the idea of "death touch." Even more maddening is the notion that this point changes depending on season, time of day, what the person has eaten that day, as well as the problem of doing this while fighting. There's the additional problem of training: i.e., how do you practice and know that it works? Anyway, fwiw, I have heard of "point striking" as a particular skill in tjq and bagua. CMC is reported to have said that it would be his response to the attack of a grappler. This is the "last resort" strategy. However, afaik, CMC did not address the specifics of training or which particular time of day to attack which particular organ, etc. OTOH, there's the view promoted by those from a "military" background, such as Gen. Li Jinglin, etc., who approached the "point" of the hand as if it was a "sword." Sun Lutang, also a military person, wrote a treatise on "point-striking" that he mentions in his book on bagua. Then, I've heard, there is the tradition of bodyguards --who carried concealed weapons, often darts. Besides throwing the darts, a la kung fu movies, they could simply be held --like the famous bagua weapon. Anyway, those are the contexts in which I've heard of "dian jue."

Respects,
Esteban

[dingo]

A friend of mine is an indoor disciple of a line that claims descent from Yang Shao Hou (and, no, I'm not talking about Erle Montaigue's people, in case you were wondering.) From experience of meeting him (in the flesh) and talking with him, I would say that dian xue is a part of taiji (it is one of the higher level combat skills, along with things like tearing tendons and stopping blood flow), but taijiquan is not a 'pressure point fighting art'.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Haven’t had much experience with bagua or any of the other internal arts. None of the teachers that I studied TC with mentioned anything about pressure point type movements. The locking breaking and other applications of the from are pretty straightforward and can be found if looked for.

Although one teacher in HI. could cause your arm to numb out at anypoint he touched. His fingers felt like spikes so it didn't really matter where he hit you with them.

What they did stress was relaxing and the use of the mind to control the body movements.

Just using the mind intent alone they could/can do some amazing things. Since TC concerns itself so much with the touch maybe they felt that these type of techniques where ineffective against some one who was relaxed and in control of their mind. It would seem that the pressure point is still a very physical idea or technique, compared to the many ideas presented by internal styles pertaining to the use of the mind coupled with the body movement. You don’t have to touch to lead the mind, and the touch that you do use is very light. Not saying that one is better just a different approach.
Like trying to apply some type of joint lock to a high level TC person.

good post

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Rory]

I know of a few pressure points that my teacher has taught me but no it is not pressure point. theres not very many moves were they use pressure points

[Fu-Pow]

I always thought that Taiji was about being able to strike any point on the body with any part of your body and inflict damage. Seems like pressure point striking makes more sense for the external arts eg crane style. In my "external" style, CLF, pressure point striking is considered high level. It is emphasized in the form Hok Ying Kuen (crane form). This is an advanced form. The earlier forms focus on easier and more lethal/painful targets, groin, throat, neck, eyes, joints etc. This progression makes sense for our style. It developed as an emergency combat style for civil war in China. You would initially want to train your troops to take the quickest, deadliest route to take out the opponent. You would not want them dinking around with pressure points. However, because CLF is a buddhist influenced art, at the higher levels practitioners would learn how to subdue an opponent without permanent injury. This, however, would not have been practical at lower levels because of the circumstances of its development. BTW, I think Dim Mak is BS and it is not something that I would waste my time training for.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[EARTH DRAGON]

If you follow chinese culture you will realize that the time of day, season and postion of the earth all play a very important role in when to hit and why! if this is your understanding that is has no signifigence then you are mistaken.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Esteban]

Hi Earth Dragon,

"If you follow chinese culture you will realize that the time of day, season and postion of the earth all play a very important role in when to hit and why! if this is your understanding that is has no signifigence then you are mistaken."

I'm absolutely sure it has some effect. I wasn't dissing Chinese culture, or the idea. I'm also sure that the seven stars have some effect, but I gave up astrology because it was tooo complicated. To know that one must strike "point a1" at a certain time of day in the winter in order to affect/disable an organ in another part of the body is pretty tough. It just seems that it would take a lifetime of study to learn, and another lifetime of practice to accomplish. I'm not saying it's impossible.

Respects,
Esteban

[Chris McKinley]

Hey Daniel,

Add me to the list. I can't answer to XingYi Quan, but my TCM mentor and first neijia instructor Li Xian was also the one who introduced me to Dim-Mak within Taiji, and later within Bagua. Perhaps you may not be giving enough weight to the cultural stigma against teaching gwai lo the most treasured aspects of Chinese culture. Though I have seen various attempts at incorporating Dim-Mak knowledge within certain external styles, it's always been uniformly unimpressive and rudimentary at best. Realizing I have high standards as a TCM guy, still I find no comparison to the comprehensive sophistication of Dim-Mak as taught within the neijia.

[Repulsive Monkey]

In Robert Smiths "Masters and Methods" Cheng Man-ching is quoted as having learnt Dim Mak but professed to never of taught it because he only half learnt the art i.e. the disruptive methodology and not the curative side. So he did learn it but just didn't teach it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

my apologies, I thought you were stating that it has no signifigance in dim mak, Yes I will have to agree it is hard and does take a lifetime to learn..... so does tai chi, so many people take such a short time to judge things we have little understanding about and then make an assuption. I was recently in a discussion with a tai chi instructor who thought chi did not exsist unless you practiced every day.... I explained to him that with out chi this conversation could not take place, he looked at me puzzeled and said why? I had to laugh to myself as I asked him how long have he has been teaching tai chi.........

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[joedoe]

Actually, I had also heard that there are certain schools that practice dim mak without worrying about the season/time/person's dietary habits etc.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[TaoBoxer]

Bandit....

Some points are going to be dangerous no matter what....others depends on the persons constitution. Points like H1 or CV1 are going to work regardless.

[dwid]

Did anyone see the episode of Ripley's Believe it or Not where Erle Montaigue dim mak's a bunch of people? They had electrodes hooked up to them that showed their hearts going into fibrillation or something...definitely an abnormal rhythm. I was just curious if anyone had any alternative explanations for this. Being scientifically minded, I'm open to the possibility of it being legit, but I could explain it as purely psychological if it weren't for that physiological response.

Any ideas?

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

[Fu-Pow]

Yes, it's called pain.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[dwid]

please elaborate. pain alone is an insufficient explanation.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

[PlasticSquirrel]

yes, dingo, i've also heard about those parts of qinna in yang taijiquan.

i found some stuff on peter lim's site. the most immediately relevant information is below, but i would highly recommend his site: http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/

"One of the most esoteric of these skills, which should not actually be considered esoteric since it is simply the attacking of the body's vital points is accupoint striking or 'Dian Xue'. Accupoint striking involves striking or grasping accupoints to cause injury, incapacitation or death. Unlike external accupoint striking, the opponent's own momentum and body mass is utilised to contribute to the power of the strike with minimum exertion from the exponent.

Bone Locking is also found in external martial arts. The idea is to restrain the opponent with joint locks. In Yang Tai Chi Bone Locking the opponent's body mass and momentum are the major motive forces, once so restrained, the opponent can be dealt with in an appropriate manner.

Bone Hitting is a quite different, this involves actually breaking of the bones. No matter how soft and supple a person is, the bones will always be hard and substantial. Bone Hitting utilises knowledge of the range of motion of the joints, the connection between the different bones in the body to break them and so incapacitate the opponent. Once again the opponent's mass and momentum are used to get them into the appropriate position where this skill can then be applied.

Sinew Splitting is akin to causing sprains and muscle tears deliberately. The mass and and momentum of the opponent again being the main motive forces. The musculature is specifically targeted and a good knowledge of the musculature, origins and insertions of muscles and tendons is necessary to apply this skill effectively.

Blocking and controlling blood flow pressure points can cause incapacitation by causing the opponent to faint or loose the use of one of his limbs due to inadequate blood flow. This is different from accupoint striking. Here the junctures of major and important blood vessels are targeted. As in typical fashion, the opponent's own mass and momentum are the primary motive forces causing him to be his own undoing.

Psychological attacks are also an advanced skills, playing on the emotions and psyche of the opponent. Both Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao Hou were recorded to have changes in facial expression and emotion when doing the form as well as shouting and roaring at the appropriate moments. These serve to cause fear, shock and indecision in the opponent."

http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/yshsmfr.htm

hope this helped out. if it makes any difference, didn't erle learn his taijiquan from the same guy as he learned his wudang from?

[Braden]

Daniel - Mike Patterson talks about dim mak applications on the video clips he has put up on his website www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com) . I know of others, but that's one you can verify easily. He has no relationship to Mr. Montaigue.

[Daniel Madar]

Interesting, I've watched all mike pattersons clips, and I have not seen him discuss such a thing. Can you tell me specifically which one?

What I'm picking up is simply that I have a different definition of dian xue/dim mak than many people. For example, I might punch someone in a pressure point, but I consider the effects to be purely physical. ((Example, there is a point very near the heart that you can hit an cause the heart to lose it's rhythm, and potentially go into shock.)) I don't consider this to be dian xue though many people would. I don't consider bone breaking to be dian xue, either. Perhaps in my conversation with people, they felt they were discussing dian xue and I simply did not.

Merciless is Mercy.

[Esteban]

Hi Daniel,

what exactly did you mean by "dian xue"?

Do you mean "accupoint striking"? Or "vital point striking"? Bone hitting might be excluded, but the skull is a bone with strong parts and weak parts. Anyway, do you mean that the result would be death --particularly delayed? or injury? IMHO, wildest and most controversial claim that we've heard would be something like this. A 350lb wrestler gets mad at an 85 year old martial artist. The wrestler attacks with furious blows. But the old man just steps aside and touches his attacker lightly on some part of the body. Somehow, the conflict ends; the wrestler goes home and begins to cough up blood. In 12 hours, he can not stand, 24 hours later, he's gone. So, the questions are: where was the point the old man touched? was it specific for that wrestler at that time of day? would it change in another part of the day? Etc., etc.? I'm not arguing that it is impossible. I just don't know the extent of what is possible.

Respects,
Esteban

[EARTH DRAGON]

in your last post you stated about the wrestler guy. as I said before my qi-goong teacheris very very high level and heals people all over the world the first qestion she asks is what time did your injury happen, then what year and what time were you born. Two very important elements in her diagnosis. She then with many hunders of people makes them bounce shake and roll around on the floor, with out their knowledge. She has pointed to one arm on a car accident victim while his back was to her and only that arm began to shake. So again she can control your entire being with the swip of her hand, as if they were pupett's on a string. So it is totally possible to control anonther's movements,bodily functions chi, or even health.....it just depends if you are there to heal them or hurt them. This is why so many masters of this level decide not to teach this skill, with it comes great responsibility, humbleness and indefinate love for others.....

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Esteban]

Hi Earth Dragon,

I am not doubting anyone's ability, or the possibilities. I just wanted to be clear on what we were talking about. I'm not sure that everyone means the same thing when they say "dian xue." Some might believe it's a myth: some believe it's the center of their art: some don't think it matters one way or the other. Actually, I think you said something very important. From what I have heard, any success at all on the type of thing you are talking about requires far more training in healing and medicine than in fighting. It's a skill that comes as a result of knowing the human body, lots of them, very well. Unlike the harmful side, it can be practiced often. And, the practitioner should always be able to reverse the effects, on himself and on others. That's why some people complain about publishing specific information about "vital points," etc. OTOH, it's soo precise and compicated that, in most cases, a person will just punch the guy in the nose. It's more socially acceptable :) --but still assault and battery.

Best,
Esteban

[Braden]

Hi Daniel. I'm away from home and thus wonderful high speed connections that permit me to scroll through Mr. Patterson's clips. If I haven't responded to this in a week, I've forgotten, so give the thread a bump up to remind me.

I wasn't aware that the implied explanation/mechanism for the points effects was the key point in this conversation, but rather only their usage. For being a martial artist, does it matter what you use to make your body understand something? If two people do the same with different ideas of how it works, they're still doing the same. Personally, I don't think of how it works at all. For being a scientist, that's different. But none of these men claim to be scientists!

[Daniel Madar]

I was thinking of accupoint striking. That is to say, using pressure along the meridians, etc, along the lines of the way an accupuncurist treats their patients.

Joint, bone and even nerve point manipulations do not qualify in my mind.

As for the wrestler story, that is exactly part of my point. The internal--skilled--stylists I know who can cause injury at any point on that level, as a result of their internal skill. It requires no particular striking point.

As for the accupuncturist, this again is an example of internal skill, not point attacks. I know an individual with the same sort of ability. This is not a result of simple accupoints.

[This message was edited by Daniel Madar on 08-10-01 at 02:07 PM.]

[Braden]

Hi Daniel; Re: Mr. Patterson's mpegs:

In 'Hsing-I Horse Application #2' @ 00:20: "Striking into the bottom points, grasping large intestine 9, 10... grasping heart 3 on the other side of the arm..."

In 'Liou He Ba Fah - First Section Application" @ 02:11: "[something] point or large intestine 18, [something] point..." (sorry, don't know my points, and don't want to embarrass myself trying to spell what he says phonetically)

[Daniel Madar]

Thanks, I was actually too lazy to go through them on my own.

Merciless is Mercy.