Am I wrong/OT

[bodhitree]

I was on the bus last night and as the bus passed a known trouble bar (shootings happen there every few months) there were police outside and the police were repeatedly slamming a guys head on the car, my first reacion was to say out loud "good". My thoughts were the guy is probably a scum bag criminal giving the police a hard time. There were college students on the bus who started complaining about 'police brutality' and 'civil rights abuses'. Lately, I have developed a hatred for people who have a criminal/thug/ lifestyle that makes the world less safe. I don't know. Should I feel bad that I was happy about this guy getting his head slammed on a police car?? I just can't stand criminals, and there are so many examples of violent crime (being from Pittsburgh you all probably heard about the Duquesne university shooting of 5 basketball players, by non-students of course). Thoughts?

[Ben Gash]

The problem is that if the police are unrestrained then none of us are safe.You simply replace fear of criminals with fear of the police. How do you know what this guy had done? You're making assumptions that this guy had committed some serious crime, but for all you know he could simply have been drinking in public (that is the world's most stupid law), mouthed off to the policeman and hey presto. The problem with brutality is that it breeds brutality, and therefore is a problem. If the police beat up people when they're under restraint, why should they be shocked and outraged when a police officer is brutalised? If the police feel that they can randomly beat people up on the basis that they've p*ssed them off then none of us are safe. I work with the police a lot, and I'm always shocked at how people who are supposed to uphold the law and enforce the rules are so bad at following the rules and feel they're above the law.
The law is the law, and your rights are rights. If some pimp had p*ssed you off and kicked off when you tried to stop him slapping his girls, and you drageed him outside and repeatedly smashed his face into a car body,those police wouldn't have any second thoughts about arresting you, and would probably give you the same rough treatment.

[David Jamieson]

building hatred in you is somethiung you have to watch out for. It's bad for your mind and you body. Passive awareness of these things and a want to affect change in some way is much healthier.

But, I would also add that when police do criminal actions, then it is indicative of societal problems that are deeper than the divisions of crime and policing.

Be the change in the world that you want to see. Spread that message.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree with Ben.. once restrained, further harm is simple brutallity.. the Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs), are supposed to enforce the law, not act as punisher.. and, yes, i also have worked with LEOs, they are, more often than not, a bit self-righteous in their unforcement policies.. often citing the ineffectiveness of the judicial system as justification for their aggressiveness.. to be fair, there are some truly respectable LEOs as well..

We exist in a very delicate legal system, where the LEOs are out-numbered, out gunned, and at a disadvantage by decree.. like New Orleans after Katrina, or various riots by masses of disaffected citizens, the LEOs sometimes must yield to the situation.. we are always one situation away from anarchy or social collapse.. it is only the moral authority the public affords LEOs to enforce the laws that maintains the social stability.. if they violate that authority, society will deteriorate proportionately..

Of equal or greater concern, to me, is the intolerable levels of corruption throughout society.. it is, generally, the same people that lament how the system fails, that abuse the same system.. you can't have it both ways.. nor can you create loop-holes in the system that are designed to protect certain types of corruption.. basically, "who's watching the watchers"?

Be well..

[Mr Punch]

Yes you're wrong. Any such gut reaction to a violent situation without knowing the facts is dangerous and complacent.

I've been on the receiving end of police violence (on a couple of occasions when peaceful demos were turned into riots by deliberate actions of the police - not just provocation but horse charges into families and people having picnics). I have been forced to defend myself over what I believed to be right.

Plus I've seen a man who was the passive one in a violent confrontation (two drunk suits late at night in a taxi rank) be dragged off by the police and get stomped on his head and neck on the edge of the kerb (round the corner from the rest of the people waiting for taxis). He did nothing. I saw it from start to finish. With your attitude you'd have supported the police as a knee jerk reaction if you'd seen him get kerb-stamped from a bus right?

Ben, David and Bob are all on the nail.

[Chief Fox]

Well, I tend to think that while you may not be right in your thoughts but I certainly understand them.

"Lately, I have developed a hatred for people who have a criminal/thug/ lifestyle that makes the world less safe."

I wouldn't say hatred but I share this thought. The reason I do is because I'm out there, paying my taxes, I have a full time job, I have a mortgage, I'm a responsible parent. It's not always easy but I'm out there playing by the rules. It drives me up the wall when I see people who, for some reason, feel that they don't have to play by the rules.

When I drive to work, I drive the speed limit. Why? Because I drive through residential neighborhoods with schools and lots of kids and it's the law. But every single day I have people tailgating me and speeding past me. I think to myself, "Wow, this person must think that their own life is more important than mine and all the other people on the road."

Most times when these people are speeding past me, they are also talking on their cell phones. I don't think that these people are bad people, maybe they are just caught up in the moment. They certainly don't deserve to have their heads bounced off a car hood.

About LEOs. All LEOs are people first and people are not perfect so I can understand how these guys also get caught up in the moment in their reactions to what they interpret as crime. I have also been on the receiving end of police brutality. While I wasn't completely inocent, I do think the cop escalated the situation to a place that it didn't need to be. I think that he maybe got caught up in the moment and maybe took some stuff out on me. He's not a bad person, he's human.

We are all moving too fast at times and are all getting caught up in the moment. It seems that we are caught in this downward spiral / domino effect of action and reaction.

It's almost like something has to happen here eventually. I'm not sure, maybe not in my life time or even my kids but something. Something to slow the pace a bit. I hate to say it but maybe it's some kind of natural disaster or flu that reduces the amount of people on the planet and forces everyone to slow the he11 down.

Wow, now those are some deep thoughts for a Friday. :D

[bodhitree]

Yes you're wrong. Any such gut reaction to a violent situation without knowing the facts is dangerous and complacent.

I've been on the receiving end of police violence (on a couple of occasions when peaceful demos were turned into riots by deliberate actions of the police - not just provocation but horse charges into families and people having picnics). I have been forced to defend myself over what I believed to be right.

Plus I've seen a man who was the passive one in a violent confrontation (two drunk suits late at night in a taxi rank) be dragged off by the police and get stomped on his head and neck on the edge of the kerb (round the corner from the rest of the people waiting for taxis). He did nothing. I saw it from start to finish. With your attitude you'd have supported the police as a knee jerk reaction if you'd seen him get kerb-stamped from a bus right?

Ben, David and Bob are all on the nail.


For one thing, this was as mentioned a problem bar, these weren't peaceful protesters. Also, the Pittsburgh Police are generally really good/fair. The incident of Johny Gammage happened outside of the pittsburgh city limit and involved suburban police forces. As far as the Pittsburgh Police I know how they are, I know a few of them (of course I can't speak for the whole force).

I still wouldn't call this incedent unwarrented, if I had to venture to guess this guy probably was resisting arrest, involved in drugs (or he wouldn't be in that particular bar), and who knows what else. Who knows, maybe they were trying to get him to spit out drugs. Some police departments are not good (I've had my own experiences). The thing that was wrong was judging, which I still can't get my judgement out of my opinion. It was not "good" that he was being slammed, but if he is a criminal I hope he'll be off the street for some time. (Hell, I hope he finds Jesus or gets rehabilitated or anything else that makes him one less person contributing to that kind of lifestyle.

[Merryprankster]

An LEO should not brutalize people they have or are trying to get into custody (or anybody else for that matter.)

However, I think we hear "police brutality" a lot. While it certainly, no doubt, occurs there are a couple of things people have to keep in mind:

1. We usually weren't there for the whole situation, so we don't know what was happening. I can see three cops on a guy and shout police brutality - but if that person is not following instructions, then the LEO is duty bound - for the safety of himself, his partners and the public, to escalate the use of force as necessary (and is legal) to enforce compliance.

2. Even if something LOOKS like brutality, it may not be. By way of example, bodhitree saw a guy getting repeatedly slammed into a car. On the other hand, I don't have any information to tell me if the guy was actively trying to get off the car. If that's the case, then officers shoving the guy back to flat on the car keeping his head down, is going to look pretty bad. You can't just gently put somebody's head back down. You have to do it quick, you have to do it hard, and when physical violence is involved, people are going to get minor injuries.

I'm not excusing any police brutality. I'm just saying that sometimes, appearences are not reality and we need to reserve judgment until we can ascertain what happened....and sometimes, not even that is possible because it's just one person's word against another.

From the LEO side - hurting people on purpose for no reason isn't acceptable, period. From the civilian side - do what the cops tell you, don't resist, and you probably won't get hurt. That stands for ALL of us, regardless of our role as perp or passerby. If a cop shouts in my general direction to lay face down on the ground spread eagled, guess where I'm going?

[bodhitree]

Yes you're wrong. Any such gut reaction to a violent situation without knowing the facts is dangerous and complacent.

I've been on the receiving end of police violence (on a couple of occasions when peaceful demos were turned into riots by deliberate actions of the police - not just provocation but horse charges into families and people having picnics). I have been forced to defend myself over what I believed to be right.

Plus I've seen a man who was the passive one in a violent confrontation (two drunk suits late at night in a taxi rank) be dragged off by the police and get stomped on his head and neck on the edge of the kerb (round the corner from the rest of the people waiting for taxis). He did nothing. I saw it from start to finish. With your attitude you'd have supported the police as a knee jerk reaction if you'd seen him get kerb-stamped from a bus right?

Ben, David and Bob are all on the nail.


For one thing, this was as mentioned a problem bar, these weren't peaceful protesters. Also, the Pittsburgh Police are generally really good/fair. The incident of Johny Gammage happened outside of the pittsburgh city limit. As far as the Pittsburgh Police I know how they are, I know a few of them (of course I can't speak for the whole force).

I still wouldn't call this incedent unwarrented, if I had to venture to guess this guy probably was resisting arrest, involved in drugs (or he wouldn't be in that particular bar), and who knows what else. Who knows, maybe they were trying to get him to spit out drugs. Some police departments are not good (I've had my own experiences). The thing that was wrong was judging, which I still can't get my judgement out of my opinion. It was not "good" that he was being slammed, but if he is a criminal I hope he'll be off the street for some time. (Hell, I hope he finds Jesus or gets rehabilitated or anything else that makes him one less person contributing to that kind of lifestyle.

[The Willow Sword]

the LEO is duty bound - for the safety of himself, his partners and the public, to escalate the use of force as necessary (and is legal) to enforce compliance.

But this gets out of hand so many times. Here in Austin we had a recent police brutality case where the kid, who was skinny BTW, was captured by the police, he was down on the ground with THREE Big Copson top of him, and one of the cops just started punching down on top of this kids head(it was caught on the dash cam and of course put on the news for all to see) The kid was running from the police, he was caught and taken to the ground, standard procedure and acceptable in my opinion, then the punching starts. It was said that he was still resisting:rolleyes: yeah right.

The problem i see with MOST police is that they feel like people are just going to comply with them because they have a badge and a gun. police probably already know that there is going to be resistance from those being acosted by the police and of course the police have to do what the quote above states right? well when that gets taken to the degree of just bashing the living cr@p out of some guy, because he made you run your fat @ss to go catch him, and you are p!ssed because of it and decide to feed him a few knuckle sandwiches, well i say that is wrong and illegal and shows the personality types that join the police force.
are these guys who join the police Moral pillars of the Universe and are like the superman charatcer? Absolutely not. I dont buy in to all that " i wanna help my community", horse manure. No you wanna have some power and authority over people and you want to exude that in a very physical way.
Take where i live for instance, i live in a county here outside of austin where the police are notorius for being racist, drinking on the job and just down right harassing of people. and travis county in austin isnt any better.
i am sure that there are some nice guys on the police force but they are few and very far between based on my experiences.
Hell my mother's second marriage was to a cop that went detective and then lawyer and he was a very violent individual with drug problems/alchohol issues and infidelity issues. imagine having to grow up in that household eh?

im sorry my view is a biased one because i have yet to meet a "Good cop". all the ones i have come across are power hungry rageaholics. i only have so much respect for the police and it is very little.

TWS

[Merryprankster]

The kid was running from the police, he was caught and taken to the ground, standard procedure and acceptable in my opinion, then the punching starts. It was said that he was still resisting yeah right.


If he was trying to get up, or not cooperate, then yes, he was still resisting. Just because YOU couldn't tell doesn't mean it wasn't happening. If you are struggling and have three cops on top of you, you're not going to look like much, but that doesn't mean you aren't trying to get up.

That said, punching is probably not the right answer. That's what "come-alongs" and other compliance moves are for.


But this gets out of hand so many times.

I didn't say that it doesn't. Because it certainly does, and every time you put humans into an equation, it can mess up. I think a lot of cops adopt the "ego trip":rolleyes: attitude you're talking about because of a couple of things:

1. Cops aren't called out to deal with nice people very much, so suspicion of others becomes ingrained.

2. If they don't immediately take control of the situation through force of presence, it can spiral out of control very quickly.

As to the rest of it, there are plenty of ******* cops, but most cops are probably reasonably decent, and certainly the ones I personally know are decent guys. There are jerks in every job, from all persuasions. Yes, I know cops are more dangerous because they have power, but a ****head is a ****head, regardless of their job, and categorizing cops as "needing power and an ego trip is dumb.

[Mr Punch]

For one thing, this was as mentioned a problem bar, these weren't peaceful protesters. ... if I had to venture to guess this guy probably was resisting arrest, involved in drugs (or he wouldn't be in that particular bar), and who knows what else. Who knows, maybe they were trying to get him to spit out drugs....The thing that was wrong was judging, which I still can't get my judgement out of my opinion. It was not "good" that he was being slammed, but if he is a criminal I hope he'll be off the street for some time. ...Precisely. I wasn't saying that it was same as being a peaceful protest, I was saying that as a gut reaction, without knowing what the situation was your judging was wrong. Which is what you asked, and you just answered yourself in the above post! I'm in agreement with you in my vain hope for rehab, and of course, Merry is completely correct in his assessment of use of force guidelines and techniques.

[TenTigers]

Let's also not forget the incident where the police brutally raped a guy with one of those things you use in the toilet-it's also used by gays in a game where they have to guess the object being inserted, what are they called?

[BoulderDawg]

The one thing I noticed in the town I grew up in is that many of the so-called bullies, racists and dims seemed to gravitate towards the police department. There were not many acts of brutality (Thank God!). However if you were a black man then you better not even think about driving in the nicer neighborhoods.