A definition of Internal strength

[burningmonk]

Hi, I'm new to the site, though I have done Tai-Chi for several years (still green, of course).

I'm hoping someone can give me a good definition of internal strength v.s. external strength. I have a decent understanding of the concepts, but I'm interested in a good definition. What makes one what it is, and what makes the otehr what it is, and what makes the two forms of art different?

Also, along the same lines, a good deinition of dynamic tension would be good too. I can't put it into words that I am comfortable with myself.

Thanks!

[Fu-Pow]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7492799154387697880&q=feng+zhiqiang&hl=en

[SPJ]

dynamic tension?

Do you mean maintaining Peng Jin?

or what is Peng?

some people like to use cotton, water or ball analog.

--

[RonH]

dynamic tension?

Do you mean maintaining Peng Jin?

or what is Peng?

some people like to use cotton, water or ball analog.

--

I like using a slinky analogy.

[Faruq]

I don't think that google video is a good example of internal strength. Though it was a beautiful video, and I'd to study with the guy to see what he had to offer, I'd have to see him do that to a PRIDE fighter in the ring, or benching like 500 lbs before I could judge whether it was effective or useful strength.

[fiercest tiger]

Faruq,

Wassup buddy, i cant view it whats the clip about?

Garry

[The Willow Sword]

a good definition of internal strength v.s. external strength.

Internal Strength is developed through the Mind and the Intent or "Will" to carry out the External Strength which is the execution of that Mind and the Intent or "Will".

SO in essence Internal strength is something that The Mind Facilitates to become external or Physical.

When you are doing your tai chi form and focusing yourself on the movements and the building of qi in your body with every movement, THAT would be an example of Internal Strength.

When you Execute the move allowing the mind and the will and the qi to come together in unison, That would be External Strength.

The two strengths are not seperate from each other, in fact there should be no distinction between what is considered internal and external strength, they are both the same, one just describes the mind and the will and the other describes the end result.

Peace,TWS

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEB9dmmJU6A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaogb-2vdrU&mode=related&search=


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8784247348094164056&q=push+hands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8


a good examples of inner work at play.

Different famous masters saying and doing the same things.


(there should be no distinction between what is considered internal and external strength, they are both the same, one just describes the mind and the will and the other describes the end result.)

I think this is very wrong. ( unless i am missunderstanding the post) here is a big difference in ability and usage. look at differnt examples and then see what accordes with what you feel it should be and belive it to be.

Note:

These are all very respected and famous teachers who devoted their lives to the art. I use their videos to illustrate and help show some high level skills, not to question weather these skills are real or not.

[bamboo_ leaf]

External Jing
External Jing is where the Jing is derived from the three external elements of musculature (jin), bones (gu) and skin (pi). This kind of jing is delivered through the exertion of the muscles, hardness of the bones and the toughness of the skin. It relies on hard physical impact and physical exertion to bring its effects to bear.
Internal Jing
Internal Jing is where Jing is derived from the three internal elements of essence (jing), vital energy (qi), and spirit (shen). This kind of jing is effected through the strengthening of the essence to provide the generation of qi which nourishes both the musculature, bones, organs and the mind which is the seat of the spirit.

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/neijing.htm


this is a good distinction my teacher uses this as do I. The practice and effects are quite different. One uses the body directly and reacts against it, the other also uses the body but more as a medium, it reacts with the others qi, and sprit depending on level.

Looking at the videos its really not possible to get the same effects by using the outer jing. They are 2 very different and distinct ways of practice and thought.

[The Willow Sword]

well i think your distinctions are also correct but it doesnt disprove or make incorrect what i have stated Bamboo Leaf(in fact it supports it). My terms are very simple because most people are going to want the simplistic answer or definition to these questions about internal and external strength(without giving some new agey and mystical approach which most people are not going to buy in to anyway). I say that they are the same because there is no seperation between what the mind does to move the body, and what the body does as a result of the mind. The mind leading the qi and the the mind being the will and the intent to move the arm or the foot or the torso.

the body cannot move without the mind and the energy to power it, the mind and the energy and the will created out of that mind is the INTERNAL Strength that we are talking about. The end result or the execution of what the mind will and intent does is the EXTERNAL.

Peace,TWS

[Faruq]

Garry, it's a very beautiful clip under the title of Feng Zhiqiang, that shows an old guy doing Chen style Tai Chi, then energy gathering and accumulation exercises and effortlessly throwing some young kid all over the place. It's beautiful. Most of the fists seem to be Phoenix or dragon, with beautiful open hand type movements and the old dude's hands look real sturdy like he practiced iron palm or did physical labor for a long time. But I would not call any of that stuff a demonstration of internal strength. The kid being thrown around could be, but you never know with a willing participant. I say put the old guy in Pride, put his money where his mouth is like the Japanese do, and then we see if it's real internal strength or not!


Faruq,

Wassup buddy, i cant view it whats the clip about?

Garry

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TWS,

Very well stated!! I agree completely!:)

[bamboo_ leaf]

(The body cannot move without the mind and the energy to power it, the mind and the energy and the will created out of that mind is the INTERNAL Strength that we are talking about. The end result or the execution of what the mind will and intent does is the EXTERNAL.)

my point would be that if you watch the videos, and some of the other ones that people have a hard time with is that the people are reacting to something that is felt before their reactions (body moves).

The expression of (do not use the strength), to me means exactly that ,do not use strength (As defined using the body directly to affect an other. )

We use the idea of levels:
First being working with the bones: Which is where most are at (direct useage of power from the body)

Second working with the skin: any type of art that uses sensitivity is in this range.
(very light, quick changes, high level grapplers)

Third working with the qi: a lot of the demos people have problems with are in this range. (very skilled taiji people, very light, person does not feel themsevles being pushed but feels that their balance is affected causeing them to move)

I am talking about is the thought of movement, being able to separate this from the movement, first to understand and know it, then expanding this to strengthen it.

The others body depending on ones own inner power will tend to react to it below their own conscious level. This is what one follows. This is how one starts late and arrives first. In every case its never against the other always with. (Going up seems higher and higher, going down seems lower and lower. If one wants the other to go right, move left) all sayings speaking to using the mind or inner to affect the other.

There are varying degrees and skill levels shown by different teachers, accounting for many of the different views that people have. The 2 main points, the soft overcomes the hard, and do not use strength. if one accepts this the question becomes how. The clips show varying degrees of how.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks Faruq,

Ill check them out after work! ;)


Would this be something of internal strength, my wun yuen sifu is old he is thinish, not that strong muscular like to lift heavy objects but can hit tremendously hard that f@cks you up inside?> Before he learnt his LHBF and wun yuen he was a CLF masters that used alot of external training of rings etc maybe its all part of his internal force now. He also says hold no tension and you will hit hard!!!

Now, in old china alot of masters or people doing kung fu also did hard labour, worked in fields and did some real heavy work this could be a sort of external training regardless of martial arts??!

Scott, dr John, Taiji Bob...Guys any comments???

Garry

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Garry,

Your instructor is correct when he says hold no tension and you will hit hard, but it takes more than that really! You must know how to strike correctly too. Sometimes it is confusing when we hear such statements because it leads us to believe that all we have to do is relax or hold no tension and the strike will magically become powerful. Without proper biomechanics no tension provides no benefit at all and may actually be detrimental when attempting to defend ourselves. In other words, if I am relaxed, but have inadequate skill my relaxation may work against me successfully defending myself.

A strike becomes powerful because we are harmonizing our mind (proper frame of mind) with our body (proper biomechanics). A proper frame of mind with improper biomechanics will produce less than optimal power. Proper biomechanics with an improper frame of mind will produce less than optimal power as well. Both mind and body must work in concert to produce optimal power while expending a minimum of physical effort.

I am presently teaching my son (15 years old) the proper technique of striking. One of the things I am constantly reminding him is to relax and flow with it. Beginners TRY to hit. TRYING to hit is a state of mind. It causes muscles to work antagonistically to each other and interferes with the fluidity of muscle coordination necessary for powerful strikes

Hitting hard is not a function of TRYING to hit hard it is a function of proper biomechanics in concert with a relaxed mental attitude. What we are trying to accomplish mentally is to keep the mind from interfering with the body spontaneously responding to the intent to strike. TRYING is an attitude that creates unnecessary tension that interferes with the production of power. What results is antagonistic muscles work against the agonistic muscles and this impedes speed and fluidity. We must train our bodies to use the muscles we need with just the right amount of energy, without activating muscles that interfere with the movement. There is no need to use too much energy if our biomechanics and relaxed state or mind are working in concert. When striking I do not carry tension in muscles that is not necessary to achieve my purpose. When I strike I strike with just the right amount of energy to allow the technique, the coordinated movement, to create the power.

So part of the learning curve involves simply practicing proper technique. That is pushing off the rear foot and directing the force wave-like or whip-like through our body to the point of impact. In order for this to occur we must have a relaxed mental attitude that will not interfere with the fluidity of movement. The body generates the power; the mind assists by directing the intent, but also by not interfering. As I have previously mentioned mental interference creates muscular obstruction to fluid coordination. The power comes from the techique not from trying to forcefully push my muscles forward. This is how a 165# boxer is able to hit with the power of a 250# man. It is technique over strength, and this is what is meant by internal over external power. The power is not some mystical effect of Chi, it is the coordinated use of mind and body used in the most efficient manner. This has been laboratory tested by the way and demonstrated scientifically to produce more power using force pads to measure the power generated.

This skill may be developed effectively by hitting the heavy bag. That is how I learned it. I had no formal instruction. It helps to understand some basics, but the learning is in the doing. All it takes is doing it over and over again. Your body will mostly guide you to the insights. Once you have attained a certain level of expertise I usually recommend using a number of different bags varying in size and weight. This is because the coordination necessary to hit with relaxed power varies according to the mass of the target, its center of gravity, and its distance from you.

[fiercest tiger]

Scott BROTHER,

You just summed up my method in a nutshell, you have given me better understanding through words then i could have ever tried to write it. That was to me a very very good discription of relaxed power.

Can i ask you about what you train as in weight type training, body weight, core strength, flexibilty, form, internal, meditation etc Are you a taiji player or some other internal player?


You, Dr John, Taiji Bob are very talented writers and i really enjoy your post, thanks again.

respect
Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Nicely articulated, Scott.. if i can add a couple of considerations.. look for natural movements in your intention, there is an abundance of power in natural motion (Ninjitsu players are very good at this).... contrived motions are contradictions requiring mental interference.. that is the "relaxed" appearance of high-level players, they rely on natural movement.. natural movement appears less threatening, the opponent doesn't recognize the threat as easily.. Scott's example of the "wave-like" motion is usually exaggerated early in the training, but becomes almost imperceptable.. as we approach coherence and mind/body unity the intention to result time is nearly simulatneous.. although we have discussed the connective tissue situation ad nauseum, it bears mention in this topic, and so, there it is....

Too often, there is confusion between relaxed and limp.. relaxed tension (Peng) is necessary.. Heavy-bag work affords us hours of deep introspection into bio-mechanics, power generation, and results.. Qi is like a highly refined fuel, for maximum results we need a well-tuned vehicle.. depending on mystical manifestations will you waiting and wanting.. refine and maintain (tune your body) with clarity and awareness of purpose, and be dedicated and diligent.. the results will be observable..

Be well..

[bamboo_ leaf]

(It is technique over strength, and this is what is meant by internal over external power. The power is not some mystical effect of Chi, it is the coordinated use of mind and body used in the most efficient manner. This has been laboratory tested by the way and demonstrated scientifically to produce more power using force pads to measure the power generated.)

I would say no, qi is mystical only to those who make it so. Otherwise its just a word describing something that is well understood by those who use it. What you describe is still using the bodies own power, not in the same light as inner power which is kind of confusing using the word power in this sense. Skill would probably be more understandable since none to very little power is involved. My best advice for those seeking a definition is to find some one really skilled in it and then make your own. Otherwise none of it will really make any sense.


(This skill may be developed effectively by hitting the heavy bag. That is how I learned it. I had no formal instruction. It helps to understand some basics, but the learning is in the doing. All it takes is doing it over and over again.)

if you had no formal instruction then how do you know it’s the same skill.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


if you had no formal instruction then how do you know it’s the same skill.Maximum results, minimum effort.. comparing results/effects to those demonstrated by "masters".. but, in the big picture, it is desirable to obtain some level of validation from a recognized player, someone that can demonstrate the skills you wish to emulate.. remember, there was no comparisons for the originators, they figured it out on their own.. that skill is not lost in antiquity, we can move further and deeper into the Internal Arts.. unless, we are confined by "tradition"..

Be well...

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8


it takes a lot of effort to reach a point where no effort is used. my point was in order to know if one is speaking of the same things one must first seek out someone who has the skill one is seeking. Translate some of what Master Wang, says and some of the others. They all say and demonstrate the same types of skills. Having felt such skill I can say that when they, or he speaks of not using force, its very literal. In part of the clip he speaks of attacking or hitting the persons sprit. Over and over again he talks of do not use force, this is not taiji. To do some of the things that they can one must have a different frame work. One that is called internal. Find some one who can do the same things or working with the same ideas then decide.

[Scott R. Brown]

(This skill may be developed effectively by hitting the heavy bag. That is how I learned it. I had no formal instruction. It helps to understand some basics, but the learning is in the doing. All it takes is doing it over and over again.)

if you had no formal instruction then how do you know it’s the same skill.

The same way the original innovators identified and used the skill in the first place. You can feel it!

I started out with a sense of what I was trying to accomplish. Then I practiced and innovated and experimented and I learned. Concerning this skill, it is my contention that if your mind is in the right place your body will guide you to the proper actions. If you know how to sense your body then you can feel it when it occurs. Of course in this circumstance it requires a specific frame of mind to begin with, so one must understand that from the beginning or they would only likely discover the proper frame of mind accidentally by stumbling upon it. Since I knew what I was looking for it was not that difficult. But it was not something I worked out in months, it did take some period of time. I don’t actually remember how long, but it probably would not be inaccurate to consider it was years. It isn’t like I kept a diary, LOL!

If you know what you are looking for, you practice a lot, and think about the results of your practice you can learn almost anything. I know it is fashionable to consider everything must be learned from an instructor, but this is not so. At some point in the past individuals perceived principles never before considered, applied them and then taught what they discovered to others. There was a first person in the chain somewhere. If it occurred once, which we know it did or we would not be learning the principles now, it may happen many more times. It is best not to limit what we consider possible, and to not project our limitations onto others. Just because I cannot do something does not mean you cannot do it. Just because I cannot understand something does not mean you cannot understand it.

Tai Chi principles are universal. They do not belong only to one culture, one tradition, or one style of MA. All one need do is contemplate the principles and the principles will be eventually understood independently of instruction. It would likely be more difficult to occur for someone with no knowledge or experience in the field of study in question, but I would try not to place that limitation on another person. It is not my place to tell someone they cannot do something just because I cannot or everyone else I know cannot.

The principles of Tai Chi are based upon the principles of Tao. Tao is the root from which Tai Chi springs. Because I am a long time student of Tao, over 30 years, I understand many of its principles, therefore I understand the principles of Tai Chi. If you understand the root, you will understand all that springs from that root. This itself is Taoist teaching.

[Scott R. Brown]

hi bamboo_leaf,

While your last post has much truth in it. I do not accept your artificial limitations. I would agree it is benefical to have instruction, I do not accept it as necessary.

Having said that I think perhaps there may be some misunderstanding. I am not talking about the force generated during push hands. That is primarily state of mind meeting biomechanics as well, but that is slightly different than what I am talking about when striking.

I am able to manifest some of the force you are speaking about during push hands having no formal instruction, but I must admit my skill is inadequate. This is due to lack of opportunity to practice with other knowledgable people however, not because I do not understand the force. It is not something I aspire to have skill in to the point I am willing go out and find others to play with. I have other goals at this time.

[Fu-Pow]

Tai Chi principles are universal. They do not belong only to one culture, one tradition, or one style of MA. All one need do is contemplate the principles and the principles will be eventually understood independently of instruction. It would likely be more difficult to occur for someone with no knowledge or experience in the field of study in question, but I would try not to place that limitation on another person. It is not my place to tell someone they cannot do something just because I cannot or everyone else I know cannot.

The principles of Tai Chi are based upon the principles of Tao. Tao is the root from which Tai Chi springs. Because I am a long time student of Tao, over 30 years, I understand many of its principles, therefore I understand the principles of Tai Chi. If you understand the root, you will understand all that springs from that root. This itself is Taoist teaching.

If you understand Taiji it does not mean you understand Taiji Quan.

[Fu-Pow]

I am able to manifest some of the force you are speaking about during push hands having no formal instruction, but I must admit my skill is inadequate. This is due to lack of opportunity to practice with other knowledgable people however, not because I do not understand the force. It is not something I aspire to have skill in to the point I am willing go out and find others to play with. I have other goals at this time.

It's funny that you say that your skill level is inadequate and yet you feel confident enough to give people practicing IMA training advice...like for example...lifting weights. :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks Faruq,

Ill check them out after work! ;)


Would this be something of internal strength, my wun yuen sifu is old he is thinish, not that strong muscular like to lift heavy objects but can hit tremendously hard that f@cks you up inside?> Before he learnt his LHBF and wun yuen he was a CLF masters that used alot of external training of rings etc maybe its all part of his internal force now. He also says hold no tension and you will hit hard!!!

Now, in old china alot of masters or people doing kung fu also did hard labour, worked in fields and did some real heavy work this could be a sort of external training regardless of martial arts??!

Scott, dr John, Taiji Bob...Guys any comments???

Garry

Eventually, everything you do will be come an extension of your internal practice, including hard labor.

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXOmYo6fE&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc31AqRyD-0&mode=related&search=

Nice clip of what internal skill would look like from the outside.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(The same way the original innovators identified and used the skill in the first place. You can feel it!)

but you would still need someone to validate it, if your using the word internal as I did earlier in this thread,. If not then it really doesn’t apply and you might as you stated view it as a limitation. For me it’s the definition that I work with and look for in others work and skill sets. Its also what is used to judge my work by others using the same ideas and by those that i meet. One must be very clear allowing this celerity to manifest in their work. Otherwise thinking you have some something may not be the same as actually having it.

Many people feel they have achieved what fansong means for example (loosened body, or relaxed) when in actully they have not to the degree that is needed to really make many of things they see work.

(If you know what you are looking for, you practice a lot, and think about the results of your practice you can learn almost anything. I know it is fashionable to consider everything must be learned from an instructor, but this is not so. At some point in the past individuals perceived principles never before considered, applied them and then taught what they discovered to others. There was a first person in the chain somewhere.)

but it would still be very rudimentary, just as the first persons would be compared to someone whos work was guided based on the experiences of others before. I would say start to be able to do some of the skill sets to the same degree the understanding will start to manifist one would then know.

Your writings and thoughts are very interesting as are many others, my responses are based out of respect for those thoughts sharing some of my own. just some time on the net.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi bamboo_leaf,

I partially agree with you.

When it comes to striking it does not require confirmation by another, but it does require something to actually strike, like a heavy bag or a partner. I have tested this skill against a partner. I did not mean to imply I have NEVER trained with others concerning these skills. When it comes to push hands one requires a partner, but if one knows what they are intending to feel and accomplish it is immaterial whether the other person exceeds your ability or not. I have engaged in push hands as well, I just do not do so now. I have used opportunities with partners to test my understanding.

Yes, I have admitted the quality of my push hands is inadequate due to my lack of training partners.

The first people who devised these techniques founded them on principles of Tao. You apply the principles to your body, its biomechanics and its momentum, and learn as you go. It isn’t that hard if you know what you are looking for. I should emphasize that I did not learn these skills in a vacuum. I did have and idea of what I was looking for and I do understand the basic principles. I am not saying I had NO MA experience and then one day decided to read a few books and SHAZAAM I figured it all out. I do not want to give the wrong impression here. Also, it is not that I have never trained in Tai Chi, it has been over 25 years though since I have participated in formal instruction. So I am not implying I figured it out out of thin air. I had an edge on the original innovators because I can draw on the information they have passed along.

Concerning push hands:

Push hands is effective within the context of its play. Change the context and its effectiveness is neutralized. A well experienced player may eventually formulate a response to an anticipated change in context and acquire the skills to accommodate and counter that context change. When this occurs one merely changes the context once again.

There is a training purpose for these context changes. It allows the student to gain greater understanding of where the power for the soft response that unseats your opponent is generated from. Following are a few things one may try in order to change the context and thus render the unseating force of their opponent neutral.

It is preferable to apply some of these context changes without the knowledge of your opponent. You may tell him you intend to change the context, but don’t tell him what they will be so he will be unprepared to counter them. It is actually best not to even tell him that you intend to change the context, but this may cause ill feelings with your training partners. No one likes to learn that they have spent hours training a skill that may be easily neutralized. These context changes are used to demonstrate that soft power is based upon biomechanics. If you take away your opponents base he loses his power.

1- Have one person stand on one foot while the other stands on both feet. The one legged man will not be able to withstand the unseating force of his opponent. This is the most basic method for learning that a solid base is the foundation of push hands and indeed all MA from striking to, throws to joint manipulation, etc. Your base is your strength. A solid base is the biomechanical edge. Your base is solid (centered), and his base is solid (centered), but his base is narrower than yours, therefore you have the biomechanical advantage. If internal power, expressed as Chi, was the basis of the force then it would work without a stable base. We need a stable base because the force is founded upon biomechanics.

2- Have your partner stand with right foot forward, then take a step to this right, your left, at an angle. You can stand anywhere to his outside from 5*-90*. He must twist outward towards his right in order to engage you. He is not allowed to move his feet. Your base is centered once again while his is not centered. He cannot generate any meaningful force from this position while from your stable and centered base may easily and repeatedly unseat him.

3- When training push hands from fixed stance merely step when you perceive the moment is right. You may also step to the side or jump back, whatever it takes to neutral the his force. Experiment and try all of these at different times. The power of his force is based upon the limitation of your stance. When you do not allow this limitation to occur you have broken his context and his force is effectively neutralized.

4- Break wrist or arm contact with one or both arms. To feel your center of balance most effectively your opponent must be in contact with you. You may change the context by breaking contact and not allowing him to the opportunity to sense your center.

5- Break the rhythm of the momentum of the arm circling. This occurs during push hands any way, but many students may not have identified that this is what occurs to assist them in neutralizing their opponent. When performed inadequately it places you in vulnerability as well and you may be easily unseated.

6- Apply a any other completely unanticipated technique change. The purpose here is to find a way to break the momentum by cheating, that is, breaking the rules of the push hands formula. This is what occurs with all of these anyway and it is the purpose of the exercises.

Changing context is nothing more than breaking the rules of engagement. Break the rules effectively and you have neutralized your opponent's attack or defense. With any practice routine we may become fixed into one specific manner of perceiving and executing our skills. We must learn to think outside the limitations of our skill set in order to defeat our opponent. You may encounter a problem if you spontaneously engage these context changes in your class. Partners do not appreciate being embarrassed and having their partner change the rules on them unexpectedly.

Here are a two stories that illustrate my point:

On one occasion in my Aikido class I was practicing with a particular partner. This person was generally a pain in the butt because he would not assist his fellows in learning the techniques. As I have said all techniques work according to a specific context. He did not know this principle, but he did know how to make it difficult for anyone to perform techniques on him. When first learning a skill or technique we must not be interfered with in order to learn the effective and proper body movements. This requires the assistance of a cooperative partner. Once our skill reaches a certain expertise various context changes may be applied in order to teach us flexibility in our response. This particular student was ego centered and his purpose was to not allow anyone to perform their technique properly. No one liked to partner with him for this reason. One day I got tired of his uncooperative attitude and during one of his context changes to neutralize my technique I changed his context and threw him down. He got embarrassed and upset because I he had intended to change my context, but I changed his. His comment was something like, “Hey, what’s the big idea!” I told him, “That is what you get if you are going to screw around! Don’t think that just because you can neutralize one technique you are not vulnerable to another.” He was spending his time in class changing the context of the techniques in order to mess with his partners and stroke his own ego, but when his own context was changed he didn’t like it himself, LOL! He expected a particular technique to be executed upon him, when he changed the context I merely changed his context and neutralized his attempt to neutralize me. He started to lighten up a lot after this episode.

Here is one more story. I had a student very long ago who is about 6’5”. He is so much taller than the other students that he would tower over them. When he would spar and his opponent would approach him, he would simply jump up in the air to become even taller and whack his opponent on the top of the skull. This was very frustrating for many of his partners because how can you learn to spar if you partner doesn’t even give you a chance? He mostly used this one technique over and over again. Of course the students, being students, didn’t know how to neutralize, change the context, of his form of attack. So one day I decided to spar with him. He was actually in the class before the one I taught so I normally did not have the opportunity to spar with him. Because I was an instructor I had the privilege of entering any class at any time. I asked him to spar with me. Since I knew his form of attack I merely drew his response by appearing to enter his attack zone. As soon as he jumped in the air, I ducked down and quickly moved his legs out from under him. He ended up in an unceremonious heap on the floor, LOL! He was very embarrassed and upset, remember I said your partner won’t like it if you spontaneously change his context, LOL! He calmed down quite a bit after that; at least for awhile. He was another student thatlet his ego get carried away in class so I had a few opportunities to cut him down to size. He is an instructor now and the last time I saw one of his classes he had returned to his old manner of sparring with his students. Oh Well! Some people never learn, LOL!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I'm hoping someone can give me a good definition of internal strength v.s. external strength.)

my own short way would be that things working directly against the body are external, things that work against the mind are internal. As an example you can trip a person with your leg, or you can make them trip by leading them past their own balance point. How each is done is dependent on what is being affected directly.

Different arts function on different or varying levels of this. This would be my definition others may have different ones. The point that I was trying to make is that for the definition really to make any sense you really need to experience it, then chose one that best fits in with your own experiences.

Hi Scott,

Nice story and many interesting points made .

[imperialtaichi]

Hi, I am quoting myself from another thread, I think it applies here:


Hello Scott,

I know exactly what you mean. And I see it happening all the time. That is why I always warn my students and myself not to fall into such trap.

However, I still believe in internal energy and Qi; Why? Because I see it as a way of explaning phenomenons. Just as a model to explain the world, no more and no less to the way contemporary science constructing theories and models to describe and predict phenomenons in the physical world. If it works, I'll use it.

For example, one of my students (a medical doctor) reckons that all these Yi Qi projections works by influencing the way we move our bodies very subtley. Which, I do not argue with. When he tries to move his body the same way without using the Yi Qi methods, it just does not work. His conclusion is that the Yi Qi projections causes the neuromuscular system to behave a certain way, which we cannot consciousely control. So even though he does not believe in Qi, his moves with the methods of Yi Qi.

For me, if it works, that's all I care about.

Cheers,
John

My point is, without being to philosophical, there is no way we can garaunteer what we are seeing is the ultimate truth anyway. We can measure the observable effect, then derive models to explain and predict it, that's all. To me, I follow the Yi Qi school because it works for me and gives me the desired result. I also respect the biomechanic school because it too can also give rise to predictable results, although I do not follow and practice in such a way. As long as people continue to practice TCC, the two school of thoughts will continue to battle each other AND supplement each other, much like the Yin Yang sign.

Cheers,
John

[spiralstair]

Hi Scott,
Have you ever played free style push hands? This is where there is a circle or some shape drawn on the floor, the players start in the middle in a 'quiet' position touching each other, and are allowed any 'context' change outside of striking or rolling on the ground in order to move their 'opponent' out of the circle.

Beginners usually play it rough, with a lot of grunting and shoving, rapid changes of pace and direction. This is an exteremly fun game for young people, uses a huge amount of energy, and is a fine format for teaching many things, like 'listening' , joint locking, external yielding, 'borrowing', and cooperation. I include this in the group class for my 'external' students studying Northern Mantis.

But then there is another way to play it. It starts the same, 2 players inside the circle. Now the movement is more 'internal', no rapid breathing, very little noise, what seems like periods of inactivity that alternate with sudden quick movements. If (this is a big if) there is 2 skillfull internal players this game becomes 'free'. Free of 'normal' ideas about strength and its sources. This what my T'ai Chi students aspire to.

Then if you play this type of 'game' with a "Master' level Internal practitioner it is possible to run into something different altogether. When you first make contact you're already 'beaten'. Sounds ridiculous, right? All I can say is that it has happened to me and it enlightening to realize it. So what is their context? They were standing upright on the same ground I stood upon, same planet, same gravity. It seemed my whole self was suddenly 'included' in their 'idea' of where I should go, and I am not one easily pushed in any fashion.

In one of the Star Wars movies I was watching with my sons the heros were about to be consumed by a monsterous fish, until it was suddenly eaten by a still bigger fish. One of the heros turns to the other and says "There's always a bigger fish".
I think this is true in most things, but in a few Master level IMA people it is not a "bigger fish" at all, it's the 'ocean'.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi spiralstair,

No, I have never participated in those forms of push hands. I have posted so much in the last few days I am unsure where I have stated this, but my push hand skills are decidedly inadequate due to lack of constant practice. However, I have applied the principles I have discussed here numerous times within my Aikido and Aiki-jutsu classes and have found success at each and every opportunity I have used them. Without fail!!! These are universal principles I am speaking of, they apply within the smaller context of personal combat and on the larger scale or wars. They are established principles of strategy and tactics that are universally applied by all great strategists. I have merely tested and applied them to personal combat.

I would point out that all of your examples, and I do appreciate you listing them, still occur within fixed contexts. That is all my point is. Everything in life occurs within a context so I am not knocking training within a specified context. We cannot avoid training within a fixed context. I am trying to expand the view here. Things work within the context for which they were designed. Change the context properly and what was designed for that fixed context may be defeated. This is important to understand when teaching the MA. It is because of the lack of understanding this principle that many MAs get their butts kicked when they get into real fights. They are trained to succeed within the context of their MA class and not the real world where the bad guy sets the context. If one does not realize this they tend to have a false sense of security concerning their abilities. Students MUST understand their skills work under specific contexts and what those contexts are. They must understand their own limitations in order to transcend them. They must learn to develop their abilities beyond limited contexts or they are at risk of becoming injured and/or disillusioned when they think they can apply their classroom skills in the real world only to find themselves lacking.

As an example, let us say I am a really bad guy. There is another really bad guy I want to get. He is big and strong and knows all kinds of MA. He is physically very dangerous. Obviously I would be foolish to challenge him according to his strength, his context. So I will change the context in order to favor me. I may run over him with my car, or sneak up behind him with a hammer, snipe at him from the bushes, etc. If I change the context of the circumstance properly I turn certain defeat into easy victory.

I am not trying to negate or deny that any of the phenomena according to your experiences have occurred. I am not trying to diminish Tai Chi in any way. I am a big fan of Tai Chi. I have not trained in Tai Chi for over 25 years, but I have relentlessly studied and practiced Tai Chi principles. I am looking forward to returning to training in Tai Chi soon. However, there is another perspective with which to interpret and use the principles most Tai Chi players adhere too. The worst that can happen if others were to experiment with the principles I have mentioned here is their understanding and abilities will broaden, and that is a GOOD thing.

We must constantly challenge the boundaries of our knowledge if we wish to continue growing/improving. This includes continually searching for the limits of our personal context and repeatedly transcending it. Part of this is being honest with ourselves about the weaknesses of the personal context with which we choose to interpret our experiences.

In your fine example of playing with the Masters: Their experience/ability is so great and their ability to perceive your context is so skilled they are able to transcend your context easily. That is all. He defeats you by perceiving your context and working to its weakness. However skilled you are, your ability to transcend his context is limited. His is possibly limitless, but at the very least so much greater than yours that there is no competition! That is why he can defeat you so easily.

My comments were never meant to denigrate the abilities of these highly skilled Masters. My comments should be viewed as one manner of explaining how they are able to accomplish their feats from a strategic point of view. The difference between me and your Masters is that while I understand the principles, I have not had the opportunity to practice them, at least within the Tai Chi context. As I have said I have had great success according to the Aikido, and Aiki-jutsu contexts.

Thank you for your latest post. I learned a lot about you and your personal view from this last one and i value your perspective!

[RonH]

No, I have never participated in those forms of push hands. I have posted so much in the last few days I am unsure where I have stated this, but my push hand skills are decidedly inadequate due to lack of constant practice.

If you aren't finding time for free style push hands with taiji principles, I did come up with a way that helped me, since the number of people that are available to push with me has dropped to zero. Pushing with yourself. You just put one arm againt the other, like you would with a partner. Each half of you becomes a whole person. It also helps in finding out how to counter the counter move from the opposite side. It works when either sitting or standing and moving around. If you watch yourself in a full length mirror, you look a little weird, but you get used to it. Switch the positions of the arms to work the other side, like you would in single hand push hands.

You could also try a very strong, first person visualization of you sparring free style. You'd randomly make the "attacks" go in different directions, as they come at you with different speeds.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi RonH,

That is a very intersting exercise. I'll give it a try.

[RonH]

I've found that when doing this, you can easily go to blinding speeds that you see high taiji people free styling at. Also, try doing this with your eyes closed to get a better "feel" of how you're pushing.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi RonH,

Pardon me please for feeling like you may be pulling my leg here! I am willing to give anything a try, but it seems that since I know what my right and left hand/arm are doing it could not be equivalent to having a partner. Without an unknown quality to the exercise I am unable to practice responding spontaneously. Without experiencing an unpredictable force my listening skills are not really exercised.

How is blinding speed developed with such a limited range of motion? How would the benefits of the exercise improve partner training?

Also I am not really able to uproot myself in any manner that would provide true benefit.

I am visualizing my wrists meeting in front of me and performing circles, or perhaps presses away from my body?

If you are indeed serious about your exercise and not just playing with my innocent naivety ;), would please explain your practice and its effects in more depth?

[RonH]

Hi RonH,

Pardon me please for feeling like you may be pulling my leg here! I am willing to give anything a try, but it seems that since I know what my right and left hand/arm are doing it could not be equivalent to having a partner. Without an unknown quality to the exercise I am unable to practice responding spontaneously. Without experiencing an unpredictable force my listening skills are not really exercised.

How is blinding speed developed with such a limited range of motion? How would the benefits of the exercise improve partner training?

Also I am not really able to uproot myself in any manner that would provide true benefit.

I am visualizing my wrists meeting in front of me and performing circles, or perhaps presses away from my body?

If you are indeed serious about your exercise and not just playing with my innocent naivety ;), would please explain your practice and its effects in more depth?

:p

I'm not lying at all. Look, you know how they say in practice that you spend some time being attacked and some attacking, that is what the practice does. But, instead of relying on what someone else is doing to show you what will happen to you, you can see how you movements would effect someone. Yes, it isn't the same as practicing with someone, but this exercise can give you a different perspective on push hands. A lot of the time, things can be unclear when pushing with someone. This does give you immediate feedback on opposing perspectives.

Now, and I guess I should have said this before, but when you push like this, you're gonna have to expect to push in not the same way when your wrists are together all the time. Just like in a fight (competition or street fighting), different sides of the wrist are gonna contact another part of the opponent's wrist or forearm. For instance, you may push with the left hand and the thumb side of your wrist will push against the under side of your right wrist. When the right wrist pushes back, you can turn you left wrist outward, so your right is pushing against the inner side of your left wrist. Then, when the left pushes back, you can push the right wrist away from your chest and up, twisting your left wrist out further and continue to push up and out with the outer side of the left wrist before pushing the right wrist back towards you and down with the pinkie side of the wrist.

Self-pushinng is gonna have to have a slightly different "style", more like 2 hand pushing, but it helps with learning to push one handed from angles that are more perpendicular to the opposing arm.

For speed, it's the difference between pushing an object and hitting it. With a push, you often pull your arm back, like a boxer might. With a punch or a knee to the gut or ribs, you don't draw back. You start where you are and move it forward. When you're standing and doing self-pushing, you can get your hips into it and you can be aware of how far you are pushing either side. You work your way up to keeping the hips from turning too far to either side. It'll kinda look like you're imitating a dog, as it shakes water off itself, but you're really just doing pushing over a very small area. You start doing larger and larger dips, you're gonna look very weird, but you'll get used to it, either knowing what it's making you feel like or actually seeing yourself in a mirror.

It's true that it doesn't give you the same thing as being with a partner. I would recommend that this exercise be in addition to partner work, but if you don't have one, it can still be beneficial. There isn't the level of unknown quality, as you'd get with someone with you, but you can work on reflexes. If there's a problem of knowing how an attack is coming, you need to not focus on the fact that you know the attack is coming. What's more important is that you can increase how you feel it coming. Yes, you know the attack from the other side is coming, but that's because of signals moving between your brain and the attacking side, which get passed to the defending side and back to the brain. What about just the signals between your brain and the receiving side? Being able to compartmentalize the opposing sides is what's needed, to act like each side of you is a different person, though they are aware of the other's info indirectly via the brain and not directly with skin-to-skin contact.

If unknown attacks are what you're concerned with, then it's better to not consciously think about it. If you want to work with being spontaneous, rely more on instinct. Let your arms move about randomly in attacks and defense, for how each side responds. It's important to get a feel for the range of motions that you could send an attack to, but a little attention to how you're moving your arms is good, or the exercise would be fruitless.

When compartmentalizing, you focus more on one side of the fight than the other. Do you want to work on your left side? Put more of your attention to the left side of your body, 'dulling your senses' perceptions of the right side, so it's eaier to think of it as one handed pushing. Then, you do the same with the right.

This exercies also works when you're pushing with just your forearm. The closer you get to your elbows, the smaller the area you have to work with, which'll require greater skill. You work towards bringing movements over a small and smaller area. You should try it with your arms touching very close at the elbows, but I'd recommend making sure your shoulders and your upper back at loose because of the unrelaxed position your upper body will be in for a while.

Now, even when you compartmentalize, even if you pick up on the thoughts of one side over another, just do your best to push them away and ignore them. It takes a little work at first, but so does the main form in general when first starting.

Eventually, all listening skills end up translating in the mind to being able to 'read' the position of bones and soft tissue of an opponent, whether in you're in physical contact with an opponet or not. You can see within your mind to with a very high degree of accuracy lines of force in the body of the opponet, their center of gravity, how much force it would take and in which direction you apply it to topple them over, etc. and you can look at yourself in the same way.

The question becomes at one point 'how can you defeat something that knows what you're doing, that knows how you're acting and reacting and can anticipate how defenses and attacks are gonna happen?' Pushing with 2 people can give you something like this by someone learning how one would react and anticipating movements, but it isn't the same (nor can it reach the same levels) as the person fighting against themselves. Self-pushing is about self-defeat/self-neutralizing in a good way. But, it shouldn't take the place of 2 person pushing. For a few years, I've been on a self-defeating/self-neutralizing in a good way kick and this exercise sprang up in my mind very early on.

A benefit of this type of work is seeing how well you can defeat/neutralize yourself, while yourself is trying to defeat/neutralize yourself at the same time. You've separted yourself into 2 halves, both sides trying to win/cause a stalemate.

If you learn to divide yourself into 2 halves down the center, there is the possibility of uprooting yourself. This is also a way to learn how to keep your balance over a smaller area. Instead of having both sides available, you've only got one side. One leg, one hip, one arm. It covers a much smaller area than what's used by an entire body. And, sometimes in a fight, things can happen where you don't have use of your whole body, where you might only be left with one side to work with, such as an injury in the nerves or one side gets trapped in the grasps of others when attacked by multiple people.

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For the visualizing, you can view with you doing however you want it to be. 1 handed, 2 handed, you could even try self-pushing. You can have your arms meet and whatever point you want them to, moving in whichever direction and have them change to any direction.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Mmm, I would say no, pushing on ones self is not the way. Practice the solo set to understand movement. push hands allows you to get the feeling and understand what is going on in and check the solo practice. This can only be done with some one else not possible alone.