"phoon sao"

[Metal Dragon]

I’ve spent more then 56 hr of private lesson with my sifu (group classes not included) dealing with the “don chi sao”, with the fook sao switch and the tan sao switch, but mostly on the stance. A nice chuck of cash was spent, but well worth it. Just three weeks ago we stared to work on the “phoon sao cycle, boy now I can see why wing chun can be a deadly stand up art when understood.

When I asked him on what he did to me while in the “phoon sao” cycle, he just laughed and smiled saying; don’t worry about that, just give me a few more months of this; stance training, form and line theories. My big mouth did it again.

But this is what he gave me.

And here it is (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/kenart2.htm)

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for sharing.

Good article.

I do have a wee issue with this part:

meaning that the elbow does not retract backwards, not even a quarter of an inch from the beginning or starting position of your phoon structure...
Never say never! IMO there are occasions when you want retract you elbow a little to get your opponent to think he has control and give up his structure. When you've been training longer, maybe you'll learn how to use a strategy of presenting openings.

56 hours seems a lot... and you didn't feel what you learnt in dan chi sao when you got to phoon sao? Could you apply it? (And since you got very defensive with me on the thread that has now been deleted, please note, I'm not having a dig, I'm asking a question!)

[sihing]

I thought I knew something about chi sau after 18 yrs until I met Sifu Lam. Using the example of keeping the elbow stiff and in one spot, never giving an inch, well he disspelled this theory and showed me a simple application of losing elbow position. Like Mr Punch said in his post sometimes you give up structure or position to bring your opponent in. It worked against me, that's for sure...lol. Nothing is ever absolute or written in stone. At one level, what is considered the golden rule, is opposite once you have achieved higher understanding and wisdom in the science of combat & Wing Chun.

James

[Metal Dragon]

Thanks for sharing.

Good article.

I do have a wee issue with this part:
Never say never! IMO there are occasions when you want retract you elbow a little to get your opponent to think he has control and give up his structure. When you've been training longer, maybe you'll learn how to use a strategy of presenting openings.

Hello Mr. Punch

What you said stands up very well, but there is a different understanding in the usage of the phoon sao cycle far as the way we use it. You must take over the line, no matter if it’s an offensive of defensive line first, through forward sensitivity before you retract the elbows.

If you retract the elbows without taking over a line through forward sensitivity first, a good wing chun practitioner will follow that elbow backwards, with no intent to attack on that side of the body, just by keeping bridge contact and taking one step forward. Therefore jamming on pinning the elbow that went backwards while hitting with the other hand. That's called "attacking the attack" or bad phoon sao structure or even crowding space. That's something I was taught in don chi sao.


56 hours seems a lot... and you didn't feel what you learnt in dan chi sao when you got to phoon sao? Could you apply it? (And since you got very defensive with me on the thread that has now been deleted, please note, I'm not having a dig, I'm asking a question!)

My sifu has been teaching here only for three and half month’s, I study with him privately 6hr a week. And group classes are also 6hr. a week. All and all I’ve only have been training for two months and a half, way to soon for phoon sao, but he just gave me a little taste, that’s all. There are no fast method here, fundamentals and more fundamental and always the basic first.

[sihing]

Hello Mr. Punch

What you said stands up very well, but there is a different understanding in the usage of the phoon sao cycle far as the way we use it. You must take over the line, no matter if it’s an offensive of defensive line first, through forward sensitivity before you retract the elbows.

If you retract the elbows without taking over a line through forward sensitivity first, a good wing chun practitioner will follow that elbow backwards with no intent to attack on that side of the body, just keeping bridge contact and taking one step forward. Therefore jamming on pinning the elbow that went backwards while hitting with the other hand. That's called "attacking the attack" or bad phoon sao structure. That's somthing I was taught in don chi sao.



My sifu has been teaching here only for three and half month’s, I study with him privately 6hr a week. And group classes are also 6hr. a week. All and all I’ve only have been training for two months and a half, way to soon for phoon sao, but he just gave me a little taste, that’s all. There are no fast method here, fundamentals and more fundamental and always the basic first.

I think that it's a given to all of us when you say that if you give elbow position away before contact and forward sensitivity is established, you can be subdued or trapped. We all know that, the idea I was trying to convey was that Sifu Lam showed a concept that while you are in contact, after the forward sensitivity is established, you can lose elbow position to bring out the "follow what goes" concept in the Kuin Keit's from someone you are fighting or playing with in Wing Chun drills. Always following the book, to the letter is bad strategy against someone who also has read that book.

First learn the alphabet (SLT), then learn how to organize the letters into words (Chum Kiu), and after that start to form your own sentences (Chi sau). After some practice you learn to write your own literature, (Free fighting, no longer playing or training mode, make it your own independent of your Sifu or lineage).


James

[Metal Dragon]

I think that it's a given to all of us when you say that if you give elbow position away before contact and forward sensitivity is established, you can be subdued or trapped. We all know that, the idea I was trying to convey was that Sifu Lam showed a concept that while you are in contact, after the forward sensitivity is established, you can lose elbow position to bring out the "follow what goes" concept in the Kuin Keit's from someone you are fighting or playing with in Wing Chun drills. Always following the book, to the letter is bad strategy against someone who also has read that book.

First learn the alphabet (SLT), then learn how to organize the letters into words (Chum Kiu), and after that start to form your own sentences (Chi sau). After some practice you learn to write your own literature, (Free fighting, no longer playing or training mode, make it your own independent of your Sifu or lineage).


James


If I’m reading this correctly, then you have no problem with the post, if so then please show where; maybe we can make I good conversation. Oh, I liked your post very interesting.

[Mr Punch]

Seems we're all agreeing...

dayum, anyone want a fight!?:mad: :D

BTW, Metal, why do you call it a phoon sao 'cycle'?

[sunfist]

dayum, anyone want a fight!?

Your lineage sucks.

[Mr Punch]

Bwuhahaha, I have no lineage! I was born from an egg on a mountaintop! You lose! The fu of no fu wins again!

[russellsherry]

hi all, i really liked marster , rahims chi sau video , a lot of myself being ok at wing chun was solid slow training in phoon sau and footwork postion is very important , knowing when and where my forward energy is going is also important, peace russell sherry

[Metal Dragon]

hi all, i really liked marster , rahims chi sau video , a lot of myself being ok at wing chun was solid slow training in phoon sau and footwork postion is very important , knowing when and where my forward energy is going is also important, peace russell sherry

Hello: russellsherry:

When I showed this to my sifu, he said you always knew good wing chun when you see it, and there are only a hand full on this forum that do.
Here’s my sifu with his top student Dennis Young from Detroit, if you look closely you can see the springy rubber band connection between them, I really love this stuff. russellsherry (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/mysifu.htm)

[Metal Dragon]

I will have some vid’s of my sifu sparring, soon to be in clips. I will ask him if it’s ok to post them.

[russellsherry]

thanks metel dragron i will give you my email address i always enjoy marster , ali work please send him my regards , peace russellsherry

[Metal Dragon]

thanks metel dragron i will give you my email address i always enjoy marster , ali work please send him my regards , peace russellsherry

I will see my sifu this Saturday at group class, I’m sure he is sleep right now, cause he’s a turnkey for Louisville Metro City Jail, and District Court, so will have to get up early in the morning, but I will let him know you said hi. “New Clip” (http://detroitwingchun.com/mysifu2.htm)

Take care, Metal Dragon

[leejunfan]

sparring clips of my sifu (full contact) without him stepping back.
stay tune. I take it, that none of you guys can do it, doesn’t mean we can’t.


I stay away from responding to pretty much all of your (Metal Dragons) threads.... but this comment makes you sound like an angry little kids who is ****ed off that the one you idolize is not being put on a throne by the rest of us.

I don't come on this or ANY forum and spout out "My sifu this.... my sifu that". I do not speak for my sifu and NIETHER DO YOU!

Does your sifu know you are coming here and dropping his name left and right? Does he condone it?

There is an old saying "Judge a sifu by the actions of his students". I don't want to judge your sifu...and I wont....... but your actions?....... speak volumes.

BTW..... don't get into a ****ing conest here my friend. There are plenty of us who have NO PROBLEM with full contact sparring. Stop hiding behind your sifu's accomplishments...... what matters in here is what YOU do.

Another old saying I personally like (being from NYC) "You mouth is writing checks your body can't cash".

Amitabha!
Sifu Anthony Iglesias
www.syracusemartialarts.com

[Liddel]

I stay away from responding to pretty much all of your (Metal Dragons) threads.... but this comment makes you sound like an angry little kids who is ****ed off that the one you idolize is not being put on a throne by the rest of us.

Hes a lost cause - only sparring with a fighter better than him will make him realise the error of his mindset.... which i suspect will never happen - its too easy to think your special :cool: