Dong Haichun

[northstar]

I've read that Dong Haichun was already an accomplished and experienced martial artist before he created baguazhang, after having studied with the taoists. What was Dong's style prior to his invention of baguazhang?

[Braden]

Most commonly I've read that it was a style related to lohanquan. Though I've also read that it was erlangquan, snake style, and bapanzhang; and also that he'd mastered a variety of styles.

I don't think anyone knows though, or actually has anything to go on but pure speculation.

[r.(shaolin)]

Dong Haichuan early skills were in Luohanquan (Shaolin) and he even taught Luohan to many of his students. The lineage through Yin Fu/Gong Baotian still teach the basics of Luohanquan basics weapons and forms. Many of this forms incorporate Luohanquan pos ture s and sequences. For example all the "Eight Mother Palm Meditations" are found in Lohan Qigong. The Plum Flower Stances are all done identically to Luohanquan as it was practiced in Bejing circa 1800's. Yin Fu was Dong's first student was his very close associate and traveled with him for many years.
R...

[TheBigToad]

Not that it overly matters, but its an interesting subject.. I doubt Dong HiChuan was the inventor of Baguazhang. His Baguazhang may have been heavily influenced by his prior martial training and he may have worked in methods of Lohan. But there are other systems of Baguazhang who claim absolutely no connection to Dong HiChuan.

Daoist temples and sects had used the circle walking method and meditations on the I-Ching for a very, very, very long time before Dong HiChuan's birth.

Hard to believe that through this long daration of time and multitude of people nobody pieced Baguazhang togther in some form or another.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[Rockwood]

Hi Kevin-

Did you ever read Professor Kang's articles in the old Pa Kua Chang Journal? He was a pretty heavy duty scholar from Beijing who did a lot of research throughout the 1980's meeting with old Baguazhang players. Over a number of articles he examines all the different theories of the creation of Baguazhang, including the various styles that claim origin outside of Dong's lineage. After lengthy travel and research in archives, he concluded that Dong was indeed the founder. It was actually quite a detailed investigation, and I cannot recall specifics. However, he did note that the circle walking practice itself was quite old, but its use in Baguazhang specifically was a creation of Dong's. But, you never know....

-Jess?

[Mojo]

I believe that's true, that Dong invented the circle walking as a martial activity.
The Taoist circle walk that I learned is quite different than Paqua circle walking.
In the Taoist circle walk one walks extremly slowly, even slower than most people practice Taichi.

[northstar]

I also believe that Dong was the founder. It was common practice in the Chinese culture to attribute important things to sages, monks, gods and emperors. It seems unlikely that monks actually would invent some new form of effective MA, since both their need of it and their opportunity to develop and test it would be very limited.

[r.(shaolin)]

There is reliable historical documentation that Daoist adepts were known for their martial arts as far back as Northern Song Dynasty. Apparently these martial arts incorporated Daoist practices.
( see "Imperial China 900-1800" by F.W. Mote - Prof. Emeritus Princeton U. and "Song-Yuan daojiao zhi fazhan" by Sun K'e-K'uan). I have my doubles that all Baqua was the sole and original creation of Dong, but I do think that Beijing Baqua was a synthesis of Lohan and Daoist martial arts by him.

[virus fist]

From Liang Zhen Pu Eight Diagram Palm book,by Li Zi Ming,

There are two sets of Songs,36 and 48 total,passed on by Dong Hai Chuan to his teacher.

After the 36 song there is a Song Verse that states:

Palm and fists methods discussed on mountains,
Passed down for long time and maybe forgotten.
Although thirty six songs I sing,
Every sentence implies real meaning.

Does this shows that he did not created the art of Pa Kua Chang?
I believe so,like other Masters before him, based on what he was tought by the monks, his previous knowledge,abilities and experience,what he made public was his interpretation of the art or you can say his own Pa Kua System.

That is far from creating an Art.

My Pa Kua system is not from Dong's lineage,it only became public 20 years ago,so who knows how many other expressions of the art are out there or have been lost.

We will never know.

One last thing,my grandsifu didn't talk much about his sifu or lineage to my teacher,in his words:

History will not help you to learn PA Kua Chang,practice will.

VF

[Guandi]

>My Pa Kua system is not from Dong's lineage,it
>only became public 20 years ago,so who knows how
>many other expressions of the art are out there
>or have been lost.

come on VF that's pure speculation. As the teacher of Li Ching-Wo is not known, nobody can really know from what lineage he was.

Guandi

[virus fist]

Signore Guandi,


Maybe you don't know it or believe it,but I do and that is good enough.

In any case ,be my guest.

Li Chin Wu told Lu Shui Tien that and he told Master Park,and that is what I was told.

I trust my family,what are you going to do?

Don't worry,be happy.

VF

[Guandi]

>I trust my family,what are you going to do?

nothing :-)

But according to Master Park's book and to the drawing on his site (http://www.pa-kua.com/fyi11/fyib11.htm) Li Ching-Wu's teacher is unknown.

Guandi