Elbow energy.

[Mr Punch]

Here are some musings I wrote on another forum about elbow energy...

What do you think...? At the ready... diss this! :D

Elbow power is largely a theoretical concept, with little physical basis. It's a very useful concept to get you to stop tensing your muscles too much (of course you have to tense your musles in order to move at all so this is also overstressed!) and to make sure you have your positioning right.

In a basic beginner's punch from a horizontal fist style, your action comes from the shoulder muscles, the triceps, the biceps (for pulling back), the lats and the pecs. Of course when this is understood, and the whole body is used pretty much all the muscles are used: calves, hams, glutes, hips, abs, erector spinae, plus all the others mentioned.

In a basic beginner's wing chun straight punch you want to line your elbows up on centreline (or as close to your centreline as you can. There are many people who have large ribcages or big chest muscles whether naturally or not, who can't do this). This is a rather unnatural position for most beginners, so the pecs, lats and shoulders often tense up. This is bad because it slows your punch down, makes you telegraph everything and renders you susceptible to being pulled/pushed around off balance, because your whole body is stiffly connected.

In order to relax these muscles you are told to concentrate on pushing out from the elbow without using any muscle. Of course you are using muscle, and the muscle you use is mostly the tricep. However, when you reach full extension you only want to pull back a little, and this uses partly the bicep but more importantly a lot of little stabilizing and interconnecting muscles from the bicep head to the forearm (forgotten the name). These little muscles give your biceps and triceps that little bit more strength over the full (extended) range of movement, which enables you to do the inch punch, and to get some power into very short extensions of your arm. In classic Chinese kung fu terminology this is called 'tendon strength' but in effect, tendons have no autonomous strength.

Among long term chunners you will see two extra muscles: the brachioradialis (http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/Brachioradialis.html) and the aconeus (sorry, couldn't find a picture of that), plus a whole load of forearm muscles. (I say extra, but of course everyone has them, it's just chunners' may be more developed).

The brachioradialis is the one responsible for your lovely lovely tan sao, and also comes into play a lot with punches (that short-power extension - it comes into play at the full extension of your tricep on the other side of your arm), and the aconeus is responsible for pulling back into and maintaining wu sao, and retracting for that second punch with the same fist.

The brachioradialis will stick out when you do a tan and turn it more and more (so that eventually if you are flexible enough your palm will be facing outwards and your thumb downwards) and also when you chamber your inactive hand (try twisting the pinky side of your fist upward further - this is how I was taught to train the 'tan sao' muscle). The aconeus will stick out on the outside of your elbow when you pull back your wu (especially if you can get it past 90 degrees with your fingers towards your face!).

Both of these muscles (and the wrist/forearm muscles necessary for most wing chun movements) are also well served by huen sao. When you train SLT correctly, even if relaxed, to the full extent of these movements, your wrists and forearms will hurt even more than your legs!

Also the 'choppy hands' move in biu jee will train them. It's worth noting that like all repetitive exercise without increasing resistance (weight), once your body becomes used to this movement it will cease to be a strength developing exercise and will become one for endurance, so the power in your punches will plateau, but you'll be able to do more of them.

It's a good idea to stretch out your wrists and shake your hands immediately after training, and maybe massage your forearms. Drinking a protein shake wouldn't hurt either.

You can develop these muscles through a long time of wing chun training, but you will reach that plateau, so you might want to try incorporating this oft-neglected exercise (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=254exer2)(bout halfway down, called the aconeus sidekick) into your weights programme for your aconeus, and SHOCK HORROR :eek: the bicep dumb-bell hammer curl (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Brachioradialis/DBHammerCurl.html) for your brachioradialis. Of course if you just do these weights exercises, your other muscles will be overstressed and you'll look a complete freak, so you may want to consider an all-over body weight programme.

For you, as a beginner, just listen to your sifu, relax as much as you can (especially your shoulders - make sure they're not going up or forwards - use a mirror until you're sure they're not then get used to doing it without the mirror) and try to visualise throwing/pushing (I don't like the pushing visualisation so much because it becomes to easy to actually start doing just that!) your arms out from your elbow (or pulling back if you're in the first section of SLT). This will prevent you from focusing too much on your fist, which may in turn cause you to pull your punches short and not release fully into your target. Focusing too much on your hands may also cause you to stiffen up your forearms making it too easy for your opponent to get leverage on them and through them the rest of your body.

Later, when you practice turning and stepping punches you'll start to understand the whole body connections and by that time your basic arm structure should be sweet!

Hope this helps!

:)

[AndrewS]

Interesting analysis.

A couple of points- my sense is that brachioradialis is a stabilizer during punching, and plays less of a role in supination
<http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/Brachioradialis.html>

The biceps seem to be more significant players in supination

A motion of forearm supination with maintenance of elbow flexion produced by electrical stimulation to two elbow flexors in humans.

Naito A, Yajima M, Chishima M, Sun YJ.

Department of Anatomy, Shinshu University School of Medicine, Matsumoto, Japan. anaitoh@med.id.yamagata-u.ac.jp

Motions of the forearm induced by electrical stimulation to two elbow flexors (brachioradialis: BR, biceps brachii: BB) were examined in five healthy human subjects. Stainless steel wire electrodes were implanted percutaneously into each motor point of the muscles. The muscles were stimulated separately with a computer-controlled multi-channel stimulator. The motions were taken with a digital video system. Angular changes of the motions in elbow flexion/extension and forearm pronation/supination were measured. Electromyograms (EMG) of BR, BB, and the triceps brachii (TB) were recorded. Electrical stimulation to BR induced a motion of flexion and that to BB motions of flexion and supination. The stimulation to BR with an adequate intensity provided holding of flexion with the prone forearm in all the subjects. In this situation, additional stimulation to BB resulted in motions of flexion and supination. However, the additional stimulation accompanied with a decrease of the stimulation intensity for BR provided a motion of supination with maintenance of the flexion in all the subjects. Since during the stimulation BR, BB, and TB showed no voluntary contraction in EMG, it is suggested that modulation of contraction between BR and BB by the stimulation can produce force in supination with keeping constant force in flexion to support the weight below the elbow.

The supinator also plays a major role (and is part of the gorilla forearms some folks get).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supinator_muscle>

Anconeus seems to functioning as the primary elbow extensor in flexion, consistent with your observations on wu sao.

J Biomech Eng. 1998 Oct;120(5):634-9. Related Articles, Links


Muscular resistance to varus and valgus loads at the elbow.

Buchanan TS, Delp SL, Solbeck JA.

Department of Mechanical Engineering, University of Delaware, Newark 19716, USA.

Although the contributions of passive structures to stability of the elbow have been well documented, the role of active muscular resistance of varus and valgus loads at the elbow remains unclear. We hypothesized that muscles: (1) can produce substantial varus and valgus moments about the elbow, and (2) are activated in response to sustained varus and valgus loading of the elbow. To test the first hypothesis, we developed a detailed musculoskeletal model to estimate the varus and valgus moment-generating capacity of the muscles about the elbow. To test the second hypothesis, we measured EMGs from 11 muscles in four subjects during a series of isometric tasks that included flexion, extension, varus, and valgus moments about the elbow. The EMG recordings were used as inputs to the elbow model to estimate the contributions of individual muscles to flexion-extension and varus-valgus moments. Analysis of the model revealed that nearly all of the muscles that cross the elbow are capable of producing varus or valgus moments; the capacity of the muscles to produce varus moment (34 Nm) and valgus moment (35 Nm) is roughly half of the maximum flexion moment (70 Nm). Analysis of the measured EMGs showed that the anconeus was the most significant contributor to valgus moments and the pronator teres was the largest contributor to varus moments. Although our results show that muscles were activated in response to static varus and valgus loads, their activations were modest and were not sufficient to balance the applied load.


'Elbow force' is in part about maintaining optimal elbow angle for force transmission. . .

DeLee: DeLee and Drez's Orthopaedic Sports Medicine, 2nd ed.,
The greatest amount of force generated at the elbow occurs with the initiation of flexion. During flexion, the moment arm of the muscles increases, so that less force of contraction is required. Up to three times body weight can theoretically be transmitted to the elbow under maximal loading conditions.[1][21] The resultant vector with greatest magnitude is directed axially toward the humeral head. Greater strength of flexion is generated with the elbow in 90 degrees of flexion, however, because the mechanical advantage of the elbow flexors has improved from the fully extended position so that less force is actually applied to the joint. The actual force across the elbow is thus less in this position than in full extension, and the resultant force is deviated posterior and superiorly. Calculations suggest that approximately three times body weight may be transmitted across the elbow joint when it is flexed at 90 degrees. It is important to note that the resultant vector undergoes a change in direction depending on whether the elbow is flexing or extending

Another component of 'elbow force', though I don't have literature to support this (but can demonstrate it by palpation, and teach it), is using manipulation of the shoulder girdle and ribcage to place the elbow in the optimal angle for force expresssion, not just using pec minor and rotator cuff.


Here's a little support for using the elbow as the control point for hand motion, and (second part) that straight line forces come from contraction pairs oblique to them (straight lines from spiral forces)

J Biomech. 2006;39(4):708-16. Related Articles, Links


Maximum isometric arm forces in the horizontal plane.

The maximum forces were found to depend systematically the direction of the force and on the hand position in the workspace. Qualitatively, the largest forces were found in a direction approximately along the line connecting shoulder joint and hand, and the smallest forces in a direction perpendicular to that line. Moreover, the difference between the largest and the smallest maximum force was lower for arm postures closer to the body. These two findings can be easily understood using an explanation similar to the one proposed by Hoff (2001) for lower limb analysis. An elbow torque generates a force at the hand along the line through hand and shoulder, and a shoulder torque a force along the forearm. Because maximum elbow and shoulder torques are of the same order of magnitude (see Table 3), the joint with the smallest lever arm, i.e. the elbow, has the largest contribution to the endpoint force

In the second part of this work, we focused on the relation between the joint torques required to generate an external force and the corresponding muscle activations. We approximated the shoulder/elbow complex by six effective muscles, three functional flexors and three functional extensors (Nijhof and Kouwenhoven, 2000). The activations of the four measured muscles were assumed to be representative of four of the six groups. The extension of the model with individual muscles, however, is straightforward and may yield the principal directions of individual muscles instead of effective muscle groups. By using a principal component analysis, with a simple model as proposed by Nozaki and Nakazawa (2001), we were able to find the principal directions of the mono-articular shoulder muscle groups and of the bi-articular muscles. The same model was used to predict the principal directions of the (not-measured) mono-articular elbow muscle groups. We found that the principal directions of the antagonistic muscles are virtually opposite to each other. Unsurprisingly, the principal directions of the bi-articular pairs are not aligned with one of the torque axes but oblique to them, making angles of 42° and −135° with the T1-axis

Lastly, I would add that elbow extension starting from approximately 90 degrees, - point where maximum force transmission, in combination with shoulder girdle fixation is a major player in delivering our punching method (and is essentially what is happening with a jerk).

Cool to see someone else thinking about this stuff,


Gotta run,

Andrew

[Mr Punch]

Hi Andrew, I was hoping you'd pop in. ;)

That was some pop in... I'll be back when I've read through this with a dictionary!

It seems from a skim read that I'm missing some things... it seems that the elbow force one (DeLee) is talking more about static positions than moving, yet I'm not sure the significance of the part about transferring three times bodyweight through the elbow at that angle. This would appear to be in support of the 90 degree contributing to the wing chun immovable elbow rather than dynamic short power, because as soon as you extend for the punch you are of course, losing that angle...? In which case, how is he talking about transferring three times the bodyweight?

In your notes, what's palpation, and how are you saying you teach that method of supporting with your ribcage and shoulder girdle? How can these muscle systems be activated?

The last point on spiral forces for straight lines would suggest that circular weights exercises would be more beneficial, wouldn't it? So, for example, a hammer curl starting with the hand by the hip in a suppinated position and turning the palm half-out to a partially pronated position as it comes up to your shoulder...?

As you've probably noticed I have no background in anatomy/physiology and this is from articles on the net, and a few observations myself... any help (cliff notes from Andrew's post anyone?! ;) ) very welcome!

A Big Thank You.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, of course if anyone else would like to add what the terms

elbow energy

elbow power

short power

tendon power

mean to them please feel free! It doesn't have to be a physiological essay!

[KenWingJitsu]

It doesn't have to be a physiological essay!
Too Late! lol.

[k gledhill]

good thread ...the key factor for training pre-punching positions ,tan and jum , good elbow positions.
The main muscle is the pectoralis major to maintain the elbow of tan 'touching' the c~line....and trying to 'x' the c~line when doing jum-sao using the same P/major only with more contraction force . Done correctly your whole arm should be loose / relaxed.
The focus of SLT is to do this action of bringing the elbow in for pre-punch training position utilizing the outside forearm of tan ,outside gate /outside of the forearm, but maintaining the tan on the c~line. Same for the Jum-sao but using the inside gate / inside of the forearm....both focusing the hand at the opponents head [ as a reference point] while maintaining the elbow in its prechambered poistion... this is what the late WSL would refer to as being its [elbow] master not its minion....in other words dont fight thinking about your elbows just let it come naturally from chisao /gor sao training...
Dan chi is the redundant stepping stone of training the elbows 2 stage process developing this simultaneous P-major contraction with a forward strike ...1st its a 1-2 action as tan hits , to develop the elbow wrist line to target...jum responds by holding center [ forward energy] as the hand is pointing to the head...if students retract the jum arm I tell them to try hitting me as I hit with tan to get the little idea....after a while the process is ingrained to use the 'elbow' not the wrist...and the punch deflects the line of incoming force as it travels to target or is stalemated in the middle somewhere leading onto further concepts...jutsao ...gum ...etc...jum becoming a 1 count strike using inner energy to maintain center while hitting.
The tan is same but using the outside of its forearm, elbow touching the c~line to maintain its deflecting /striking action...if the elbow moves out it can be shown to block itself while trying to hit and easily trapped due to its angle and weak shoulder muscles as its support....it too becomes a 1count strike ...add jum and you get a 1-2 punch that can be doing more than the guy your fighting bargained for ;)
SLT is this elbow in training period to develop the needed endurance of the pec/elbow/wrist lines for freefighting...if your elbows come out while doing chisao/fighting and your being taken advantage of ...more SLT / danchisao....the SLT done without this thinking can be a waste of time and turn into 'application ' fighting due to inability to work the elbow theory and arm chasing with your hands , when the forearms are meant to be a second set of hands....ie jum sao is like paksaoing with the forearm while punching with the fist ....tan is the same only from the outside of the forearm...attacking forwards as it does....not 1-2 hit. ie As the tan elbow 'spreads & hits' off the c~line [ linsildida ] but the punch goes to target :D all from ELBOW thinking...or not .
Combine the 2 actions derived from elbow and you have a flanking attack using tan and jum to hold your defensive line whil attacking all out full speed...simple coaching methods can reinforce the elbow , like feinting while throwing a punch at a regular pace to see if the jum action is chasing the arm [shown by x-ing ones own center ] or maintining elbowline / hand to target regardlees of the feint...using pec contractions and elbow control ....it takes a little practice !:D

[couch]

good thread ...the key factor for training pre-punching positions ,tan and jum , good elbow positions.
The main muscle is the pectoralis major to maintain the elbow of tan 'touching' the c~line....and trying to 'x' the c~line when doing jum-sao using the same P/major only with more contraction force . Done correctly your whole arm should be loose / relaxed.
The focus of SLT is to do this action of bringing the elbow in for pre-punch training position utilizing the outside forearm of tan ,outside gate /outside of the forearm, but maintaining the tan on the c~line. Same for the Jum-sao but using the inside gate / inside of the forearm....both focusing the hand at the opponents head [ as a reference point] while maintaining the elbow in its prechambered poistion... this is what the late WSL would refer to as being its [elbow] master not its minion....in other words dont fight thinking about your elbows just let it come naturally from chisao /gor sao training...
Dan chi is the redundant stepping stone of training the elbows 2 stage process developing this simultaneous P-major contraction with a forward strike ...1st its a 1-2 action as tan hits , to develop the elbow wrist line to target...jum responds by holding center [ forward energy] as the hand is pointing to the head...if students retract the jum arm I tell them to try hitting me as I hit with tan to get the little idea....after a while the process is ingrained to use the 'elbow' not the wrist...and the punch deflects the line of incoming force as it travels to target or is stalemated in the middle somewhere leading onto further concepts...jutsao ...gum ...etc...jum becoming a 1 count strike using inner energy to maintain center while hitting.
The tan is same but using the outside of its forearm, elbow touching the c~line to maintain its deflecting /striking action...if the elbow moves out it can be shown to block itself while trying to hit and easily trapped due to its angle and weak shoulder muscles as its support....it too becomes a 1count strike ...add jum and you get a 1-2 punch that can be doing more than the guy your fighting bargained for ;)
SLT is this elbow in training period to develop the needed endurance of the pec/elbow/wrist lines for freefighting...if your elbows come out while doing chisao/fighting and your being taken advantage of ...more SLT / danchisao....the SLT done without this thinking can be a waste of time and turn into 'application ' fighting due to inability to work the elbow theory and arm chasing with your hands , when the forearms are meant to be a second set of hands....ie jum sao is like paksaoing with the forearm while punching with the fist ....tan is the same only from the outside of the forearm...attacking forwards as it does....not 1-2 hit. ie As the tan elbow 'spreads & hits' off the c~line [ linsildida ] but the punch goes to target :D all from ELBOW thinking...or not .
Combine the 2 actions derived from elbow and you have a flanking attack using tan and jum to hold your defensive line whil attacking all out full speed...simple coaching methods can reinforce the elbow , like feinting while throwing a punch at a regular pace to see if the jum action is chasing the arm [shown by x-ing ones own center ] or maintining elbowline / hand to target regardlees of the feint...using pec contractions and elbow control ....it takes a little practice !:D

Very good posts everyone! I especially like the idea here of practising to not X one's own centre. We do some drills and then the puncher is required to pull out of the drill at any given time to make sure the "defender" is not exagerating the movement.

Keep it up, guys - I like learning about muscles.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[k gledhill]

a good analogy is to think of your forearms as 'poles/spear/shaft' and the hands as 'knives' spear tip/ fist...
the elbow the butt end of the pole ...
if you stab a pole/spear into a target you naturally try to keep the force directly behind the point....physics = all the force/mass behind the pinpoint...?
....using toima / sidebacksteps / cutting steps while altering the angle of the pole/spear/forearms to deflect but still counter-strike simultaneously with the knife / fists,palms....the concept of vu-sao applied to the mix and your laughing...
:D

[sihing]

When striking, to not think of using the wrist or hand, I like to think of striking with the stump, imagining that there is nothing above the elbow, just a stump. This way the person can punch visualizing the stump making contact. This may help insure that the practitioner is using elbow power and placement in the movement instead of the wrist. To many practitioners have their elbows going in a upward direction when striking instead of out and then up (to me this means the wrist is leading). The elbow chases the center, not the wrist, on most occasions.

James

[AndrewS]

Hey Matt,


It seems from a skim read that I'm missing some things... it seems that the elbow force one (DeLee) is talking more about static positions than moving, yet I'm not sure the significance of the part about transferring three times bodyweight through the elbow at that angle. This would appear to be in support of the 90 degree contributing to the wing chun immovable elbow rather than dynamic short power, because as soon as you extend for the punch you are of course, losing that angle...? In which case, how is he talking about transferring three times the bodyweight?

My interpretation of that passage is that at that angle maximum force can be transmitted through the elbow, hence it's the sweet spot for hitting and static force transmission. My guess was that they were referring to extension, not flexion (there aren't a lot of people curling triple bodyweight, vs. benching)- but I've got the original reference on order to give you a better answer.



In your notes, what's palpation, and how are you saying you teach that method of supporting with your ribcage and shoulder girdle? How can these muscle systems be activated?

Palpation- touching. I can have you put your hand on the back of someone performing an action properly and you can feel what's going on. I cue people to use the appropriate muscles with light touch, then there are a bunch of exercises which re-inforce their use and strengthen those connections from heavy pressure chi sao to moving with pulls to scapular pushups, jerks, overhead squats, etc.



The last point on spiral forces for straight lines would suggest that circular weights exercises would be more beneficial, wouldn't it? So, for example, a hammer curl starting with the hand by the hip in a suppinated position and turning the palm half-out to a partially pronated position as it comes up to your shoulder...?

That's not the conclusion I've drawn. Doing things like pushing your knees out and trying to tear the floor apart on the squat strike me as examples of using forces oblique to the line of of motion (outward twisting of the legs being used to maximize a 'linear' squat.

Andrew

[Mr Punch]

Hey Matt,
My interpretation of that passage is that at that angle maximum force can be transmitted through the elbow, hence it's the sweet spot for hitting and static force transmission. My guess was that they were referring to extension, not flexion (there aren't a lot of people curling triple bodyweight, vs. benching)- but I've got the original reference on order to give you a better answer.I wasn't thinking it meant flexion, but my point was that if 90 degs was the ideal any extension from that would be lessening the angle, unless your inference is that it's actually better to hit the target with the finishing position of your punching hand at ninety degrees, which to me seems a little unlikely. While it may be accurate vis-a-vis the angle of just the muscles in play around the elbow it must be missing the interplay of the other arm muscle-systems, to say nothing of body linking.

Of course you said that extension from the ninety deg as a starting point may be the ideal, which may make sense, assuming that the article is talking about that extension when it's talkign about the maximum force delivery angle. The Delee article there talks about the maximum being at the initiation of flexion which doesn't sit very well with the theory regarding extension (in my tiny brain anyway).

So we're back to square one!

Elbow power comes from the 90 deg angle, but how is that used?!


Palpation- touching. I can have you put your hand on the back of someone performing an action properly and you can feel what's going on. I cue people to use the appropriate muscles with light touch, then there are a bunch of exercises which re-inforce their use and strengthen those connections from heavy pressure chi sao to moving with pulls to scapular pushups, jerks, overhead squats, etc. Interesting. Thanks. I've already come to the conclusion that squats and dls should improve the connection from foot to punch. I know the squat is basically for pushing (or outward movements) so that would include punching dynamics, but the hamstring movement in dls is vital for getting short range power to connect from a straightening of the leg through the hip and out through the strike, not to mention the pulling motions, I would think. I like the scapular push-ups but never really though about why I did them other than to strengthen the RC.


That's not the conclusion I've drawn. Doing things like pushing your knees out and trying to tear the floor apart on the squat strike me as examples of using forces oblique to the line of of motion (outward twisting of the legs being used to maximize a 'linear' squat.

AndrewOK, that makes sense.

I was thinking apart from hammer curls that any twisting curls which help to work the BR in a twisting motion would help with the final little tweak on a good punch.

BTW, thanks for the other posts on here: I'll come back to them... please continue to talk in my absence! :D