Healing Arts -part of your system

[Blacktiger]

Just putting the question out there...:)

How many people here have healing arts that are a part of their chosen system or style?

For example bone setting etc.

[Becca]

I've learned how to reset dislocated small joints and how to get the tendens in various limbs to relax after having the crap pounded out of them. :D

I've also learned alot about how to strengthen the minor muscles the help protect joints like the knee.

[EarthDragon]

For any style to be classified as a true Chinese Kung fu system
IT MUST HAVE A MEDICINAL SIDE.

I have said this many times but sometimes it falls on deaf ears or the martial side only teachers of any one sytle they know or have been taught focus on the fighting and forget the rest, ie qigong, herbology, nei gong, tui na .etc .etc

A complete system has all these and sometimes more aspects in them to fall into this catagory (system) otherwise you are learning just a piece of the pie and should call it a style but many will argue that fighting alone can be considered a system, however this is not true... at least as far as traditional goes.............

[David Jamieson]

I think in a lot of schools, the sifu probably would have knowledge, but it is not exactly dispensed in the same way as the exercises (which are also healing in some manifestations)

having said that, you can likely learn some tui na, how to apply ditdajow and other helpful practices to ensure good maintenance of yourself as you practiice and learn.

most times, people seek out herbalism, acupuncture and what not from accredited institutions because that is a full focus.

medicine isn;t and shouldn't be augmnentation or a sideline, it is part and parcel to having kungfu, but not to learning just martial arts.

in shaolin, the idea is strongly infused with yin and yang and buddhist concepts.
little things like , if you can break someones arm, then to have balance means you should be able to fix it as well.

superficial scratch, but I would also add that you should have regular charitable works going on as well. Benevolence and compassion are very important to ones kungfu. a person is complete when both sides of their nature and all facets of those is investigated and examined and cultivated.

[EarthDragon]

well said David....... sad thing as I said is that most systems and thier teachers, and thier teachers didnt take the time to learn all thier is to know about the completeness of thier art and focused on only the fighting aspect, again just a piece of the pie.
My teacher learned the medical side of 8 step for 11 years before he was ever taught to throw a punch. many times it was this test to see if indeed the student had the dicipline and longevity to be worthy of the entire system to be passed onto them. But here in America we are all in such a rush to go no where, this is perhaps part of the problem....................

[couch]

well said David....... sad thing as I said is that most systems and thier teachers, and thier teachers didnt take the time to learn all thier is to know about the completeness of thier art and focused on only the fighting aspect, again just a piece of the pie.
My teacher learned the medical side of 8 step for 11 years before he was ever taught to throw a punch. many times it was this test to see if indeed the student had the dicipline and longevity to be worthy of the entire system to be passed onto them. But here in America we are all in such a rush to go no where, this is perhaps part of the problem....................

11 Years? Don't ya think that's a little too long if some one wants to learn how to defend themselves and get the health benifit from it?

I think if a Sifu wants to test the integrity of a person - he needn't start a huge, watered down Kung-Fu school in the first place. Keep it small and personal. I think this is a better way to get to know your students and it doesn't waste anyone's time.

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[AJM]

Dog, as well as all bounty hunters, is an inbred douchebag.

[couch]

Dog, as well as all bounty hunters, is an inbred douchebag.

Thanks for coming out. I'd like to commend you on your first post being a smart and informative one.

Dog turned his life around as he once was a criminal. He is very Christian and is part of a loving family. Are you so quick as to judge other people by their looks? How about Asians, Caucasions, Blacks, Hispanics, etc? How about Skaters, Jocks, Preps, etc?

And please don't hijack threads. Learn to lurk before being a jerk.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[fiercest tiger]

I agree with Earth and David, real traditional kung fu systems have the healing as well fighting. Its usually after the student has proven himself that the herbal formulas are taught as this is the bread and butter for the sifu.

Garry

[bodhitree]

trips to the hospital can be part of my system.

[Blacktiger]

For any style to be classified as a true Chinese Kung fu system
IT MUST HAVE A MEDICINAL SIDE.

I have said this many times but sometimes it falls on deaf ears or the martial side only teachers of any one sytle they know or have been taught focus on the fighting and forget the rest, ie qigong, herbology, nei gong, tui na .etc .etc

A complete system has all these and sometimes more aspects in them to fall into this catagory (system) otherwise you are learning just a piece of the pie and should call it a style but many will argue that fighting alone can be considered a system, however this is not true... at least as far as traditional goes.............

Yep I could not agree more. Thats why I asked the question as 90% of the time the focus is just on the fighting side - the healing gets over looked -however you need both!!!

[EarthDragon]

Couch you said....11 Years? Don't ya think that's a little too long if some one wants to learn how to defend themselves and get the health benifit from it?

Perhaps, but that depends on what they are trying to learn and how well you want to learn it. If one choses not the goal of defending themselves then time is nothing to them.

if you are in a hurry to learn how to defend yourself but not in a hurry to learn accupuncture then would 11 years be a long time for fighting? again its the long term goal and completeness of our arts that we are wishing to learn is it not?

Alot of times i read posts from students that have devoted 8-10% of thier time taking 3 classes a week then wonder why after a few short years thier kung fu is so so having a job a girlfriend TV you know a life. then imagine being poor in china 80 years ago with no T.V not X box and no internet, and all this extra time you spend training lets say 60-70% of all your free time would 11 years be longer then or would it make you kung fu better? again time is all realitive.

Heck sometimes the 3 mintues in the microwave seems long if I am hungry and watching the plate spin round and round.....

[cjurakpt]

question: not to be a party pooper, but why exactly do you need a healing side for a style to be "complete"? I mean, it's great to have it, but I think it's a bit dismissive to consider a style incomplete without one...sure, it's nice from a philosophical perspective, but pragmatically it really makes sense only in context of what the environment dictates; in other words, probably the reason a lot of styles had a healing component at one point was because of the sheer need for it: if you were out in the middle of nowhere guarding a caravan and got wounded, well, too bad for you if you didn't know what to do; or if you were operating just outside of the law (no, of course that never happenened in the history of TCMA), maybe you wanted to not show up at a local infirmary; or maybe it was a lot cheaper to take care of yourself / training brothers than spend $$$ on a doc; or maybe it was more efficient to treat training injuries "in house" right when it happened; probably other reasons as well, but the key poiint is that the kind of injuries they were preparing for are not the standard bumps and bruises that we get during modern training, but rather how to deal with an abdominal cut from a broad sword or a poke through the thigh with a spear (you think I'm kidding, but my old sifu's most valuable formula, according to him, was not dit da jow or herbal plasters, but cut powder...) - the kind of stuff that if it happenend today we'd go right to the ER: I mean, if you got stabbed with a knife would you go see your sifu? please...; but see, this was back when medicine was unregulated - which means anyone could theoretically set a bone or pop in a needle; however, these days, probably we know a little more about do's and don'ts of emergency medicine now than they did 100 years ago, including all the complications that can arise from improper treatment - it's not to say that dit da and TCM don't have value in areas that allopathic medicine is lacking, they certainly do - but personally I wouldn't want anyone laying a finger on me who isn't licensed and trained under appropriate clinical supervision - quite frankly any teacher publically teaching medicine to a lay person is asking for trouble, and anyone going out and using anything that they learned from their TCMA teacher is also taking a big risk; anyway, obviously the medicine aspect is valuable and certainly should not be lost - but it should be taught in appropriate venues such as TCM schools, or as post-grad continuing ed to licensed professionals (ok, if it were transmitted directly in a non-public venue for personal use by the student or on family/close friends, that's probably fine from an ethics / liability standpoint);

[couch]

Couch you said....11 Years? Don't ya think that's a little too long if some one wants to learn how to defend themselves and get the health benifit from it?

Perhaps, but that depends on what they are trying to learn and how well you want to learn it. If one choses not the goal of defending themselves then time is nothing to them.

if you are in a hurry to learn how to defend yourself but not in a hurry to learn accupuncture then would 11 years be a long time for fighting? again its the long term goal and completeness of our arts that we are wishing to learn is it not?

Alot of times i read posts from students that have devoted 8-10% of thier time taking 3 classes a week then wonder why after a few short years thier kung fu is so so having a job a girlfriend TV you know a life. then imagine being poor in china 80 years ago with no T.V not X box and no internet, and all this extra time you spend training lets say 60-70% of all your free time would 11 years be longer then or would it make you kung fu better? again time is all realitive.

Heck sometimes the 3 mintues in the microwave seems long if I am hungry and watching the plate spin round and round.....

Cool. Totally agree. Should prolly get off this forum and do my Siu Nim Tao! ;)

Following goals...as a teacher and a student.

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[EarthDragon]

cjuakput,
Your post was well put and made a lot of sense, but realize that there were many complete systems out there that have been dimishied into styles based on not learning the original in its entirety. This has also made some systems extinct.

When any person took the full road from young student to old shrfu he was indeed well versed in medicine, internal and external, philosophy, religion and defence especially if he were choosen a a diciple from genration to generation many things have been lost due to illitteracy, loss from translation and death before all the complete information was pased down, this is why so many systems hold onto thier tradation so tightly, otherwise it will succome to be classified as only a style of fighting instead of a complete kung fu system.

[The Willow Sword]

Excerpt from Becca


and how to get the tendens in various limbs to relax after having the crap pounded out of them.

now would this treatment be the doobage?;) :D

peace,TWS

[cjurakpt]

cjuakput,
Your post was well put and made a lot of sense, but realize that there were many complete systems out there that have been dimishied into styles based on not learning the original in its entirety. This has also made some systems extinct.

When any person took the full road from young student to old shrfu he was indeed well versed in medicine, internal and external, philosophy, religion and defence especially if he were choosen a a diciple from genration to generation many things have been lost due to illitteracy, loss from translation and death before all the complete information was pased down, this is why so many systems hold onto thier tradation so tightly, otherwise it will succome to be classified as only a style of fighting instead of a complete kung fu system.

first off that "cjurakputz" if you please...;)

second, I respect your perspective, and there is a part of me that agrees with it wholeheartedly: in fact, one of the reasons I went into PT was having been exposed to dit da through my sifu at the time and thinking that having learned how to disassemble the human body, knowing how to out it back together again would be nice - unfortunately, nether my sifu's English nor my Cantonese were up to the degree of technical detail that would have been necessary to study with him, and anyway, I wanted a professional degree/license a bit more solid than acupuncture was at the time; anyway, again, philosophically, i agree that there's a nice intrinsic sense of balance to knowing how to fix what you also know how to break, probably because the latter is so much easier to do than the former (Newton's Third Law, I think - the one about all organized systems more readily moving towards entropy than order)

that being said, I guess it's just a sign of how things change over time: what was once a critical necessity is now, like much of the fighting component as well, outmoded, a curio that while part and parcel of the art, has become obsolete in context of how it was once used, that is, in matters of life or death - in other words, the percentage of TCMA practitioners who are practicing their art with the need for frequent actual combat is probably a lot less than once was the case: certainly, there are folks out there - bouncers, bodyguards, law enforcement personell - who may well be using it regularly, either alone or in conjunction with more modern tactics; of those in that minority, even fewer, if any at all, make use of the traditional medicine in the same way their ancestors did - push comes to shove, they go to the ER;

look at it this way: if you had a choice of getting your broken humerus (upper arm) set by your sifu or by an orthopedist in an ER, who are you going to choose? hands down the ER, mainly beause they will x-ray the arm and decide what's the safest thing to do, so as not to, say, lacerate the brachial artery with a shard of your humerous...

i guess it's just evolution: what was once important to complete a practice, really just isn't anymore; and again, given the climate of healthcare in this country, practicing something like dit da is at best nebulous, at worst illegal if you aren't licensed

that said, your point about the family-like situation of a young disciple learning the whole art soup to nuts over a long time until he becomes a sifu - it's like an apprentice / journeyman / mastercraftsman situation: you stuck with one thing for decades until you mastered it - so, of course to eliminate part of that would certainly make the trade incomplete - but again, I see that as, in this country at least, more a product of the intrinsic standard of medical care present that obviates the need to really know it (although your other points about factors of American culture are certainly well taken, no argument); finally, back to the whole completness perspective: i think knowing something like the medicine aspect has great potential to make you a better human being, so for that alone, it's worth learning it...

[Blacktiger]

I know of a friend who works under the banner of tactile therapist in Aus. He was taught healing arts in his system, he showed a great aptitude - this then took him out of Australia to be tested by the top people in the world.

He often gets refferals from the hospital system and specialists -Then discovers later down the track that they copy his reports and pass them off as their own.

When he goes into to have treatment on occasion for certain things - every single time the medical staff are blown away as to how quickly things are healing or recovering - they cant explain it but he can.

A few months ago he had an eye problem and required surgery which meant coming back at a later date to have it done.

Instead of waiting to book in for the full operation he told the Dr to do it then and there as he did not want to wait. He tapped a few anathesia points and had the operation done minus any anaesthetic.....Popped the eyeball, let the medical staff do what they needed to do and off he went. The staff were blown away.

He can give you more detailed info on your system than the majority of medical professionals can.

But again I think you need both points of view for a balanced perspective.

But still pretty cool stuff to know if you can get it:D

[EarthDragon]

Cjurakpt, sorry brother for spelling your name wrong ok you said

that said, your point about the family-like situation of a young disciple learning the whole art soup to nuts over a long time until he becomes a sifu - it's like an apprentice / journeyman / mastercraftsman situation: you stuck with one thing for decades until you mastered it - so, of course to eliminate part of that would certainly make the trade incomplete - but again, I see that as, in this country at least, more a product of the intrinsic standard of medical care present that obviates the need to really know it (although your other points about factors of American culture are certainly well taken, no argument); finally, back to the whole completness perspective: i think knowing something like the medicine aspect has great potential to make you a better human being, so for that alone, it's worth learning it...


Your post was well thought out and you have great points, but please realize that i am tradationalist and a lineage holder taught by thechinese .................
...I am that guy you spoke of
and feel the need to keep that alive, with so many schools chopping up cutting out and teaching bits of this and bits of that our kung fu is dying and much has been lost, its apparent when someone gets on there and says i have been training for a year and a half and I am testing for my BB!
this sickens me and when the teacher teaches a chinese system but wears a Gi and a obi I scratch my head and say WTF?

Then when others call thier fighting pices of what they are learning a complete system again I say WTF?

[SevenStar]

question: not to be a party pooper, but why exactly do you need a healing side for a style to be "complete"? I mean, it's great to have it, but I think it's a bit dismissive to consider a style incomplete without one...sure, it's nice from a philosophical perspective, but pragmatically it really makes sense only in context of what the environment dictates; in other words, probably the reason a lot of styles had a healing component at one point was because of the sheer need for it: if you were out in the middle of nowhere guarding a caravan and got wounded, well, too bad for you if you didn't know what to do; or if you were operating just outside of the law (no, of course that never happenened in the history of TCMA), maybe you wanted to not show up at a local infirmary; or maybe it was a lot cheaper to take care of yourself / training brothers than spend $$$ on a doc; or maybe it was more efficient to treat training injuries "in house" right when it happened; probably other reasons as well, but the key poiint is that the kind of injuries they were preparing for are not the standard bumps and bruises that we get during modern training, but rather how to deal with an abdominal cut from a broad sword or a poke through the thigh with a spear (you think I'm kidding, but my old sifu's most valuable formula, according to him, was not dit da jow or herbal plasters, but cut powder...) - the kind of stuff that if it happenend today we'd go right to the ER: I mean, if you got stabbed with a knife would you go see your sifu? please...; but see, this was back when medicine was unregulated - which means anyone could theoretically set a bone or pop in a needle; however, these days, probably we know a little more about do's and don'ts of emergency medicine now than they did 100 years ago, including all the complications that can arise from improper treatment - it's not to say that dit da and TCM don't have value in areas that allopathic medicine is lacking, they certainly do - but personally I wouldn't want anyone laying a finger on me who isn't licensed and trained under appropriate clinical supervision - quite frankly any teacher publically teaching medicine to a lay person is asking for trouble, and anyone going out and using anything that they learned from their TCMA teacher is also taking a big risk; anyway, obviously the medicine aspect is valuable and certainly should not be lost - but it should be taught in appropriate venues such as TCM schools, or as post-grad continuing ed to licensed professionals (ok, if it were transmitted directly in a non-public venue for personal use by the student or on family/close friends, that's probably fine from an ethics / liability standpoint);

If that post was formatted, it woulda been the best post ever.

[SevenStar]

To run a judo club and to be certified as a coach, it's required that you be at least CPR certified.

[David Jamieson]

bare minimum it behooves any owner or instructor to be certified in first aid and cpr if they are working with people in martial arts or any other area of recreation and fitness. more knowledge is better and no knowledge isn't acceptable by any standard.

[AJM]

To me, if you're going to break it , you should know how to fix it. That seems very obvious.If you don't know enough about your own body to at least point health care profesionals in the right direction, (which many of them need and appreciate.) the rest of your life is going to be a tough boat to row.

[Blacktiger]

And the opposite is also true -you know how to fix something then you also know how to break it.

Thats why the bone setters and healers in systems were the ones to watch out for as they could shut you down the quickest. Complete knowledge of the body and all its functions combined with an art is far more potent than someone with just self defence skills.

[cjurakpt]

Cjurakpt, sorry brother for spelling your name wrong

no sweat - I thought it was funny (and with a last name like Jurak, I;m used to having it butchered way more than what you could do if you tried! :)


Your post was well thought out and you have great points, but please realize that i am tradationalist and a lineage holder taught by thechinese .................
...I am that guy you spoke of
and feel the need to keep that alive, with so many schools chopping up cutting out and teaching bits of this and bits of that our kung fu is dying and much has been lost, its apparent when someone gets on there and says i have been training for a year and a half and I am testing for my BB!
this sickens me and when the teacher teaches a chinese system but wears a Gi and a obi I scratch my head and say WTF?

Then when others call thier fighting pices of what they are learning a complete system again I say WTF?

in principle, I agree with you - in my heart, there is no argument, it totally makes sense about having the two together - I personally believe that in context of a totallity, skill in one improves skill in the other, and that is from my own personal experience: when I first learned to do adjustments, it was actually pretty easy, largely because of my experience in controlled joint locking, trapping, etc; conversely, my push hands improved tremendously as a result of some of the other, more subtle listening manual treatments;

on the flip side, I guess I'm just always trying to understand the pragmatics of evolution - not only why are things added by why things are taken away: for example, if we can understand why the healing aspect is being lost, from a realistic perspective, then it can help us figure out ways and means to preserve it, to create, perhaps, a new context for it

so, out of curiosity, ED, how do you communicate the healing principle of your art?

[EarthDragon]

Cjurakpt, When I teach i use the medical term for everything, i dont say grab the arm, hit the chest, kick with the top of the foot etc etc
rather grab the humerus, hit the xyphoid proccess, kick with the tarsel. This instills medical termonology on a daily basis, my students know how and why to strike the carroided sinus, upenge the trechea, pheonix eye the menengial artery as part of their training.

This has greatly improved thier ability to understand the anatomy how it works and how to attack it and what attacks do what damage and how it works. I teach them the medical way to knock someone unconcious before they hit the chin and bend the mudula-oblongatta.

They know the hinge, rotary and radius of degrees of movement in all of the extremities before they learn joint locking.... you have no idea how impressive it is to hear them talk to other martial artists at demos and seminars and when speaking about a joint lock they know the name of the bone, ligament, and its degree of manipulation by memory.........even funnier is the the person showing them the move whether it be a teacher or higher ranked student doesn know the degree of motion of the lcok he is perfroming, I often get complimants about that everywhere we go. It helps understand much more than hit kick punch for that is only part of the whole pie........

[Ray Pina]

I've learned methods of preventative maintenance in internal but no herbal recipes or something like that. That was offered where I trained Hung Gar but I didn't put the time in. It's interesting, something I'd like to learn, but it just hasn't been a priority.

Which brings me to the point that I wouldn't agree that you have to know it to be a complete martial artists.... but obviously I'm bias.

I say this, because, to be "traditional," one has to master what ... 18 weapons, empty hand forms, applications and usage, chi, and herbalogy.

How many can say they can use their empty hands effectively, let alone 18 weapons. Empty hand skills have occupied 28 of my 32 years on this planet ... and I'm still learning.

Ontop of this, I have personally been given, and have seen sifu's giving advice on injuries that should really have been handled by professionals.

I'm kind of mixed on this one. Great skill to learn. How much can you learn in relation to the time spent, and what are you willing to sacrifice for it?

I've sacrifced medicinal, sword and pole to learn empty hand and some knife. I'd like to learn more knife and gun methods.

I'd think each person should choose a curriculum that fits their needs. I'm always looking for practical, so I leave injuries up to my insurance and doctors, so I can focus elsewhere.

[EarthDragon]

Ray Pina, you said

Which brings me to the point that I wouldn't agree that you have to know it to be a complete martial artists.... but obviously I'm bias.

True I stated that the art needed it to be classified as at complete system.

I say this, because, to be "traditional," one has to master what ... 18 weapons, empty hand forms, applications and usage, chi, and herbalogy.

Traditional and complete are different things.

How many can say they can use their empty hands effectively, let alone 18 weapons. Empty hand skills have occupied 28 of my 32 years on this planet ... and I'm still learning.

not many, I have been doing martial arts for 26 years and I am stsring to understand more and more.


Ontop of this, I have personally been given, and have seen sifu's giving advice on injuries that should really have been handled by professionals.

Agree 100% however I am speaking not a sifu with medical knowledge but a O.M.D that has mastered thier art to the level of sifu. I have 6 yers of OMD training but would never give medical advice nor attempt to treat patients, I will treat minor things in my school for my students.


I'm kind of mixed on this one. Great skill to learn. How much can you learn in relation to the time spent, and what are you willing to sacrifice for it?

LOL Girlfriend, sex job, movies, eating you know the finer things in life

to each his own as they say please realize that in the days of old it was not uncommon to pratice kung fu 8 - 10 hours a day, times that times 30 years you have yourself a true sifu OMD but those day have passed since the 19th century

[Blacktiger]

Thats when you realise the skill required to be referred to as a Master.

[cjurakpt]

you have no idea how impressive it is to hear them talk to other martial artists at demos and seminars and when speaking about a joint lock they know the name of the bone, ligament, and its degree of manipulation by memory.........

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=pubmed_DocSum&db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=8823894

first seven articles on the list - have fun!

[Becca]

look at it this way: if you had a choice of getting your broken humerus (upper arm) set by your sifu or by an orthopedist in an ER, who are you going to choose?

An injury like that would probably occure with my sifu in the room. :D

First to the ER to get x-rays, then take the x-rays to Dr. Fu or Dr. Pow-Chin to have the injury fixed via accupunture. But both fine doctors would refuse to touch it without the x-rays actually in thier hands so they can see what atually needs done.

[cjurakpt]

An injury like that would probably occure with my sifu in the room. :D

First to the ER to get x-rays, then take the x-rays to Dr. Fu or Dr. Pow-Chin to have the injury fixed via accupunture. But both fine doctors would refuse to touch it without the x-rays actually in thier hands so they can see what atually needs done.

are you saying that if you had a fracture that you'd get acupuncture instead of reduction and casting it? c'mon...

I don't know too many ER's that are going to let you walk out with your films in hand, especially after you would have had to have signed out AMA, if you don't let them reduce and cast a fractured humerus;

also, are the guys you mention MD's? unless they are radiologists or orthopods, I wouldn't count on them to read the films too accurately (besides, they'd be getting a radiology report on it anyway, so they wouldn't have to interpret the films themselves); like all areas of medicine, x-ray interpretation is as much art as science, and it's only after reviewing hundreds to thousands of films and doing it all the time that you get good at it - if these guys only see a few dozen a week (which i doubt they do at that), they wouldn't have much better luck reading them the you would...

[Becca]

Yes, that is what I'm saying. They are both MDs. Both opperate out of established, reputable clinics. But niether have access to x-ray equipment. Soooo... You go to the emergancy room. Ask for an evaluation, then tell them that you would rather have your broken bone(s) set by your own personal physisian.

My faith in Dr. Fu is very firm. I have seen him heal injuries western doctors say can't be helped. I have also seen the results of his ability to set and heal very bad fractures in as little as 8 weeks.

I litterally destroyed the middle joint capsul in my left ring finger last December. Western medicine said there was nothing that could be done about it. Dr. Fu managed to heal it so well that I have full functional use and strenth in that joint, and 92% mobility. It won't quite straiten anymore, but that beats the useless, frozen joint I would have had if my sifu hadn't referred me to him. :)

[Blacktiger]

I have to agree with you Becca - I have seen people suffer breaks etc then on the spot a friend of mine (tactile therapist) re-set it on the spot. The injured person goes in to see the medico and they say who the hell set this.. its perfect...lost count of how many times thats occured -this is after X-Rays I might add.

I would go and see my guy first off every time then go to a western doctor for an all round view.

I guess the other thing to is that finding people with this type of skill is rare, you are lucky if you come across them. As we all know with martial arts there is skill and then there is just off the planet.

I found my guy as a kid did not even know it was part of his martial arts or that he was a high level practitioner. He used to fix all my old basketball injuiries. :D

[David Jamieson]

knowing something of physiology and in particular superficial anatomy will only improve your fighting skills. For one thing, you'll know where to hit to get the most bang for your buck.

the points of the jaw, how joints move and how they aren't supposed to move, locations of highly sensitive parts, say.. the xiphoid process and knowing that on an older fighter that is harder and can break while on a younger fighter it is more cartillegenous and more wrapped in muscle still, knowing the belt of weakness, where the liver is, where the kidneys are, all these things and knowledge of them will only improve your game and you're more likely to learn them with depth from a medical standpoint than from that of bare bones fighting.

stop the blood, stop the breath, shock a nerve bundle and so on. This information doesn't come from fighting, it comes from medicine. It doesn't hurt to learn it because it will only increase your depth of understanding and ability to properly attack the weakness of the human form which is more resilient than many one hit wonder couch boxers might think it is.

decrease that resiliance by hitting where it counts. That's useful info, to discount it is only that and it is counter to your growth as a fighter or a kungfu person.

[EarthDragon]

David J my point exactly, but sometimes the "fighter only" type or the newbies fail to see the point and still think it takes skill to punch somebody.

You and I often agree on many things and share almost the same view on the arts, interesting indeed, you must have been studying for as many years as I have if not more....

[Blacktiger]

[QUOTE= but sometimes the "fighter only" type or the newbies fail to see the point and still think it takes skill to punch somebody[/QUOTE]

Exactly !!!!

[cjurakpt]

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

actually, you said that you would "take the x-rays to Dr. Fu or Dr. Pow-Chin to have the injury fixed via accupunture"; you didn't say anything about them doing the reduction / setting...


They are both MDs. Both opperate out of established, reputable clinics. But niether have access to x-ray equipment. Soooo... You go to the emergancy room. Ask for an evaluation, then tell them that you would rather have your broken bone(s) set by your own personal physisian.

if they are doing this stuff on a regular basis, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have an x-ray machine, or at least a portable flouroscope in their "established, reputable" clinics...anyway, no reflection on their skill, but I'd be a little less enthusiastic about waiting that long between the ER and the f/u office visit (unless one of them is always available on call to do emergency procedures, 24/7); even if you could get to them right away, if it's an unstable fracture, it could conceiveably shift internally by the time you got from the ER to their office...it would be great if you could get them to come to the hospital and do it though (which unfortunately doesn't happen if they aren't affiliated with it)



My faith in Dr. Fu is very firm. I have seen him heal injuries western doctors say can't be helped. I have also seen the results of his ability to set and heal very bad fractures in as little as 8 weeks.

"very bad' can be somewhat subjective: objectively, if you have a fracture that, according to AAO guidelines, requires open reduction, with internal or external fixation, treating it any other way is a huge risk that can end the doc sued / licenseless if things go wrong; my point is that if they are MD's, there is a limit to what they are going to manage themselves extraoperatively; within that range though, obviously they have a level of skill not commonly found in that regard


I litterally destroyed the middle joint capsul in my left ring finger last December. Western medicine said there was nothing that could be done about it. Dr. Fu managed to heal it so well that I have full functional use and strenth in that joint, and 92% mobility. It won't quite straiten anymore, but that beats the useless, frozen joint I would have had if my sifu hadn't referred me to him. :)

"western medicine" includes many different things, including osteopathy, naturopathy and homeopathy, all of whom probably would have had something to offer beyond what an allopathic orthopedist might have offered; also, did you see a hand specialist for an eval? an OT or PT with the lettters CHT after their license specializes in hands, in fact it's one of those sub-specializations that is so specific, it's almost like a separate profession; point is, they can often offer something far more comprehensive than an orthopod could (although typically ortho hand specialists work with CHT's)

BTW, when they cast people, do they use an open cast? there was a study I remember reading in PT school that showed how an open cast (essentailly a splint) was associated with more rapid healing time than a standard plaster ast, because the person could remove it, range joints nearby that weren't involved, receive modalities as needed, etc.

[EarthDragon]

We must reemmber that western medicine is bar none the best approach for emergency, heart, stroke and surgury. We cannot exclude the scince and knowledge that the west has for again immediate procedures. Eastern medicine is the preventive approach and holistic therapies and treating the body as a whole, this is the misconception.

Can eastern medicine treat heart attack or stroke victims better and more effcient of course not but they also look at the bigger picture and realize that while the body may react in a certain way this is probably associated with either yin or yang deficientcy and diet, something that the west is still not realizing.

Western medicine for instance if you hurt your wrist will imobilize it and introduce pain killers to treat the problem, or at least make the pain suside

eastern mecine will use herbs and manipulate the effected area to speed up the natural healing process

two different approaches to the same cause.....