Video?

[MattEl]

Does anyone have links to video clips of kung fu working in NHB and/or real world fight situations?

I am visiting a lot of places as I try to start training for the first time (in, something), and I am trying to reconcile my impression that while they look a lot more - interesting - than just artlessly punching or kicking a sandbag, or grappling, traditional m.a. just don't seem all that practical. My doubts increased when I saw the video of Jason DeLucia getting his ass kicked by Royce Gracie.

But I'm a total novice, and would love it if a bunch of you could prove me wrong.

[The Xia]

Check out San Shou. Regardless of what people say, the techniques are from Gong Fu. It's just that rules, gloves, etc do not permit many techniques. Also, read some Chinese martial arts history. Gong Fu was used for real combat. You generally don't see great TCMA fighters in MMA venues. Most TCMA fighters that are interested in combat sport go for San Shou.

[MattEl]

Is san shou the same thing as Sanda?

[The Xia]

Yup. They are different terms that refer to the same thing.

[MattEl]

"Most TCMA fighters that are interested in combat sport go for San Shou."

-- Okay, but this brings me back to my initial question --> why would they be doing the TCMAs if they only worked as San Shou? (I'm sure I'm missing a few hundred things.)

[The Xia]

I'm not 100% clear on your last question but I'll try to answer. Some guys just do San Shou and only train the stuff that is allowed in San Shou. Others do TCMA and use what they can in San Shou. There are allot of things from TCMA you can't use in San Shou, or any sport competition.

As for Jason Delucia, he refers to himself as a sensei and calls the praying mantis one of the five animals....

[Becca]

They don't "only work" in San Shou. San Shou rules work better for them. MMA rules are not geared for chinese martial arts. Just as Karate compations aren't. You ever watch final fu on MTV? Did you see that Kempo guy kick the kickboxer's butt but loose by points because he didn't "kick enough"? That's what happens when one art, regardless of style, tries to compete in a venue that has rules not designed for his style. The San Shou rule set was devised with Chinese martial arts in mind, so they work best for CMA styles. That is why you are more likely to find the really good CMA players competing in that tyoe of event...:)

[The Xia]

TCMA and San Da can work in MMA. Look at Cung Le. Look at how great he did. Look at how they tried to undermine his San Da by citing his stint with wrestling in college. :rolleyes:

[No_Know]

Not touching the San Shou thing (at least not touching the ground)...Traditional being practical.?.

I like to see the one technique and see variations of that. Then variations of force with variations of timing. I start to see that like a sentence and pronunciation I can get different effects.

People who compete in those octagon type televised events might have a notion better than me on the real stuff. I like the thought of doing the technique literally. I get that it Way tones me to be better able to move well and strengthens me including support muscles. But that the technique if actually used does not go all the way through. Yet I repeated the whole long full thing enough that I can read the situation and switch, or stop, jump, restart...the technique. It switches. It might be about appropriate and about percentage--percentage your technique success/failure and their technique success/failure when you get to 60-40 (you/them) you might should incorporate something extra--(more Or Less...)Spirit, Will, technique, strength, Power, Speed, Force, Torque, angle, resistance/tension, distraction, leverage... or blend the technique to a compensation technique.

This is alive and no one involved knows completely how it will go, theoretically. Trial and error, appropriateness, applications and comprehensions. You don't see it as practical because you are expecting only one use. If you look at wood and expect a stick but see a tree you might be confounded. There's perhaps more there than you were presented or thought. Accepting that traditional is a flower that blooms with the light. It might not be one way all the time (evergreen), but is appropriate to the situationas much as the person comprehends and is capable.

By design it has many uses. Can some food be cutseperated with a fork? Can one scoop some food with a fork? To look at it, it is for poking, and it is that, yet there is more possible.

Perhaps some-such some might say. I No_Know

[MattEl]

What are your prinicpals. (Thank you for the replies. I find this discussion really interesting.)

[MattEl]

That should say "what are your principal styles? The styles you train in."

[bodhitree]

TCMA and San Da can work in MMA. Look at Cung Le. Look at how great he did. Look at how they tried to undermine his San Da by citing his stint with wrestling in college. :rolleyes:


I think Cung Le would be the first to admit his style is hybrid and does not come from tcma. If you watch his instuctionals he always says "in wrestling we call this a...." ect.

[Becca]

Nice point, bodhitree.

Xai- K.L. does have some blending in his styles. And he is also one of the very finest champions of San Shou. The fact that he can hold his own in many types of event says little about why many TCMA prationers choose to compete in an event designed to showcase thier chosen fighting style, though. If you want to compete in MMA then by all means, do so. But do so with the realization that they won't let you use as many of your "tools" as a more specialized type of event would. There's got to be some give and take in the world of orginized sports.:)

[The Xia]

Cung Le wrestled in college. He was great at it too. But he found his place in San Shou. I never heard of Cung Le being anything other then a San Shou man (besides his college wrestling that is). Perhaps you know something I don't. Care to elaborate?

[Becca]

Cung Le's Fight record (http://www.cungle.com/cungle/profile_cung.html)

"2006 Strikeforce Middleweight MMA Champion
Cung Le vs. Brian Ebersole, Knockout

2006 Strikeforce Middleweight MMA Champion
Cung Le vs. Mike Altman, Knockout"


Any more replies from me, after this one, will be a long while in comming. I'm going on my first real vacation in 4 years as of right now. See ya in a week! :D

[The Xia]

Yeah I know about those fights. I even referred to them in my previous post. I was talking about how you and bodhitree were saying that his style is not just San Shou.

[Becca]

I guess it is more of a point of veiw thing for me. I think of San Sou in the same context as I think of boxing. It can be a style, but is more like a set of guild lines for how to use skills you got somewere else. It's more of a specialized skill set than a style, I think.

Just my personal oppinion, of course.:)

[wind draft]

I look at it like this. Not everyone needs a college degree, BA degree, PH.D degree.

Same thing with martial arts. People start with a style, which you need to to start. It gotta start somewhere. As people get good, they move on to other things.

People graduate high school, they move on to college. Some don't some do. I think when you think yourself as a martial artist you want to always improve. Doesn't matter what style because you human can only do so much.

For example: A lot of MMA are former karate, kung fu, and other traditional art, but because MMA is such a big thing now. Writers or promoter would say they study MMA or Brazilian JuJitsu. Again JuJitsu started where? Traditional Japanese art.

Again most MMA guys came from traditional martial art background.

No martial art style is better than another thats why you don't see one type dominate the other. As for MMA, it take a whole different character to do that stuff.

Just think learning martial art we are always taught not to fight. But these MMA guys most of them have been fighting before learning martial art. They are the former bullies in high school. Their mind set is different from people who learn martial art and go in to fight. NOt the the same aggressive mindset.

Just really think.. All the guys in MMA use to fight before they learn martial art. They're not afraid to hurt someone. Me because I learn not to use martial art only in life and death. I'm more scare to hurt someone.

[Knifefighter]

The fact that he can hold his own in many types of event says little about why many TCMA prationers choose to compete in an event designed to showcase thier chosen fighting style, though. If you want to compete in MMA then by all means, do so. But do so with the realization that they won't let you use as many of your "tools" as a more specialized type of event would. There's got to be some give and take in the world of orginized sports.:)
Last time I checked, MMA events allowed all the things that are allowed in San Shou.

What things are allowed in San Shou that are not allowed in MMA?

[Becca]

Nope. I ain't getting sucked in this time Trollfighter. :)

[Ravenshaw]

San Shou is a set of rules. Some people adapt their TCMA to them, but I see a lot of other people taking kickboxing/MT/TKD/karate kicks, boxing punches, and wrestling/judo throws and calling their amalgamation "San Shou." To my understanding, this is what Cung Le has done. I went to the college at which he wrestled and my current San Shou coach was a student of his and Rudi Ott.

I have a BB mag from Jan 2001 in which he says he's done: TKD, wrestling, Vietnamese KF (said he never remembered forms, just basics and sparring), a little BJJ, and boxing. What I see in the San Shou I'm learning from his student is boxing hands, TKD and possibly MT-influenced kicks, and wrestling takedowns. The footwork is most definitely boxing. There's nothing wrong with it and I enjoy it, but I don't consider it TCMA as I understand it. I do get to work some of my BSL and WT into it, though, which is fun. :cool:

[Dark Knight]

http://www.mma.tv/tuf/index.cfm?FID=1&a=230&TID=0

John Marsh, a MMA fighter showed up for a challenge by a Kung Fu guy.

The KF guy put up $5,000 saying with no rules he could beat any fighter of any size.

On the post is someone who was there.

[Dark Knight]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...martia l+arts

I grabbed this from mma.tv

"LOL, ok here is the story.
John was going to fight the guy for 5k and then I was going to fight him for anothedr 5k. The fight was a full no-rules fight. The kung fu guy had posted in a forum that the UFC and Pride were fake and if eye gauging (sp) and bitting you're allowed he would beat any fighter at ANY weight class.

Our friend Dale ask him if he would fight a guy who was 250lbs and the guy said that it would be better because it would just prove his point even more.

So Dale propose two fights, one with John and one with someone his own weight (me). You can see me on the background with a knee pad on next to "Caique", our BJJ instructor at the time.

The voice on the background is of Bo Hershberger, brown belt from Caique, really close friend of John's.

Dale was the guy that put up the money on our side (10k)and keep half off the winning's, but only John fought because the guy's arm got broken and so he could not fight me.

THe kung fu guy admited his style was crap on his site at the time and got **** from all the other "mastes" out there, so he offer to put up 5k out of his own money to see them fight John or I and they all refused; their excuse you may ask???

They said that they did not want to KILL US, and that's what would happen if they had a no-rules fight against us. LOL!!!

Later guys,

Mauricio Zingano"

[Ray Pina]

Here's some fight footage of me from before I started to train with Renzo Gracie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGuQFh9MXo

Keep in mind, I'm your trypical martial artists just maybe a little more focused. Meaning, I don't lift weight or take supplements, I'm not training to be a pro fighter... I just compete to test myself.

All of my standup can be attributed to what I learned from master David Bond Chan, a Chinese internal stylist. A lot of people find faults in it, too agressive, sloppy, etc. Yea. I'm still growing. But I've only been landed on solidly once in real fighting, and that was after being tripped and boucning off the ropes into a right cross that broke my face:)

Here's a clip of how I train my students. These are excerpts from Sat. class: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1enIDU8r6bU

[MasterKiller]

But I've only been landed on solidly once in real fighting, and that was after being tripped and boucning off the ropes into a right cross that broke my face:)

What's the story on the Judo/Boxing guy who challenged you?