Is Wushu,is Kungfu?

[NiHui]

Let me say what I have observed in the martial arts circles.
In US and in Europe people make use of these two words to make stark
contrasting statements.Since kungfu was coined by the HK movie industry to
cater to foreign audiences,it has been accepted by foreigners to indicate
the traditional martial arts;whereas the word wushu is used to designate
those arts as currently taught in China.
In the American community many traditional masters objected and immediately discarded any wushu connection in order to keep the purity of their art.Still others
argued it was a communist plot to water down traditional arts.
I see many,too many opinions picking the line that modern wushu is only
flowery movements.Very far from it.
One thing is the competition circuit where young practitioners display awesome
physical abilities;and a very different thing is the purpose of spreading martial arts
knowledge to every corner.America gets the idea that wushu is only beautiful
show.Many travel to China,the ones with an open mind find a friendly place
no matter what country they go;others are only ready to find faults;then
I can say that going to China and saying that practice was lousy is a big
understatement.It has to be lousy because a person who goes for a few months
at best,without the language,can not expect teachers to go in depth.
For that matter is best to stay at home.
Many relate what is practiced in Shaolin to the wushu that they reject.Traveling
and finding that Shaolin art is not certified as antique from Han or Tang times
is foolish.Only when you,personally you,strike a good relation with a teacher
then the doors will be open,and this requires language to communicate and time
staying in the same place,not a tourist visit.
I find meaningless the point of to what degree a style is "real".It exists,then it is real.What you want you will get it in many years later.
If you want success in the fast lane,then practice piano or chess.
I look forward for your opinions.

[Flying-Monkey]

Ask your sifu.

The word, kungfu, was used to refer to CMA when my Sigung was a little boy. He is 75 now.

[The Xia]

Gong Fu is a southern expression meaning "Time and Effort". It is mainly used to refer to Chinese martial arts but can be used for other things as well. I've heard people native to Southern China use Gong Fu to refer to all martial arts. For example, Karate would be called "Japanese Gong Fu" and so on. The reason why this term prevails in America is because the Chinese-American population is largely Southern. Also, Hong Kong culture is mostly Cantonese therefore Hong Kong folks will use the term. Wushu is a Mandarin expression. Originally, it referred to traditional martial arts. Many people still use the term in this manner. However, Americans use the term Wushu to refer to the performance art born out of the PRC. To distinguish the performance art from the traditional fighting styles, I add the word “modern” to the front. The PRC Performance Art = Modern Wushu and Traditional Chinese Martial Arts = Gong Fu or Wushu (although I prefer using Gong Fu to avoid confusion).

[NiHui]

Not in China.The word kungfu was not used in China to specifically make
mention of martial arts.I know all perfectly well the history of chinese language
applied to martial arts.I am well past the age of needing a sifu.
Also,you refer to the line where I mention the HK movie industry coining the word
for foreign audiences.
The intention of my writing is not the subject of words,but to point at the
perceptions rooted in misundertandings due to the media,movies,political
interests,and the views about China at different moments.
I don't speak cantonese and don't use cantonese words.My best wishes.

[The Xia]

Cantonese do refer to Chinese martial arts as Gong Fu. Hong Kong film was founded by Cantonese people. Most sifus in America are Cantonese. This is the reason for the use of the term in America. The term Wushu has been used to refer to Chinese martial arts in Mandarin speaking areas. However, PRC performance artists use this traditional term to refer to what they do. Meanwhile in America we are used to the term Gong Fu. So even though Wushu traditionally means martial arts in Mandarin, Americans use it to refer to the performance art. Such is language.

[Flying-Monkey]

Not in China.The word kungfu was not used in China to specifically make
mention of martial arts.I know all perfectly well the history of chinese language
applied to martial arts.I am well past the age of needing a sifu.
Also,you refer to the line where I mention the HK movie industry coining the word
for foreign audiences.
The intention of my writing is not the subject of words,but to point at the
perceptions rooted in misundertandings due to the media,movies,political
interests,and the views about China at different moments.
I don't speak cantonese and don't use cantonese words.My best wishes.

You are well past the age of needing a sifu? What does that mean?

The Xia stated it. It came from southern China. It has very little to do with the West.

[NiHui]

It means that I am old.I feel content with what I have obtained in my life,
my professional interest is Asian Studies.Arts,Politics,Economy,and History.

[Flying-Monkey]

What is your job?

[NiHui]

Trying very hard to obtain a PhD in Asian Studies.

[Royal Dragon]

What difference does it make, we all know this already.

I find meaningless the point of to what degree a style is "real".It exists,then it is real.What you want you will get it in many years later.
If you want success in the fast lane,then practice piano or chess.
I look forward for your opinions.

Reply]
Why waste YEARS of your life to learn modern dance, when your intrests lay in the original, and traditional fighting arts of China?

It seems rather dumb, as Authentic Chinese martial arts are stand alone systems each with their own beginner fundementals, intermediate and advanced methods of training. They are unrelated to the modern perfomance stuff. It's a waste of time to learn the modern performance stuff, just as studying the intricacies of "Ice cream" recipies would be a waste of time as a pre requisite for earning an MBA.

[WanderingMonk]

Let me say what I have observed in the martial arts circles.
In US and in Europe people make use of these two words to make stark
contrasting statements.Since kungfu was coined by the HK movie industry to
cater to foreign audiences,it has been accepted by foreigners to indicate
the traditional martial arts;whereas the word wushu is used to designate
those arts as currently taught in China.
In the American community many traditional masters objected and immediately discarded any wushu connection in order to keep the purity of their art.Still others
argued it was a communist plot to water down traditional arts.
I see many,too many opinions picking the line that modern wushu is only
flowery movements.Very far from it.
One thing is the competition circuit where young practitioners display awesome
physical abilities;and a very different thing is the purpose of spreading martial arts
knowledge to every corner.America gets the idea that wushu is only beautiful
show.Many travel to China,the ones with an open mind find a friendly place
no matter what country they go;others are only ready to find faults;then
I can say that going to China and saying that practice was lousy is a big
understatement.It has to be lousy because a person who goes for a few months
at best,without the language,can not expect teachers to go in depth.
For that matter is best to stay at home.
Many relate what is practiced in Shaolin to the wushu that they reject.Traveling
and finding that Shaolin art is not certified as antique from Han or Tang times
is foolish.Only when you,personally you,strike a good relation with a teacher
then the doors will be open,and this requires language to communicate and time
staying in the same place,not a tourist visit.
I find meaningless the point of to what degree a style is "real".It exists,then it is real.What you want you will get it in many years later.
If you want success in the fast lane,then practice piano or chess.
I look forward for your opinions.


I get the sense that some people oppose wushu because it lacks combative application. Its emphasis is place on artistic presentations instead of combative intent.

They have no problem with wushu as a performing art. Their problem arises when wushu people try to pass wushu off as legitmate self-defense training.

[The Xia]

I agree. I have seen many Modern Wushu artists try to pass their stuff off as old and combative. Often, they describe Wushu with the original definition. They do this despite the fact that what they practice isn’t Wushu in the original context.

[WanderingMonk]

What difference does it make, we all know this already.

I find meaningless the point of to what degree a style is "real".It exists,then it is real.What you want you will get it in many years later.
If you want success in the fast lane,then practice piano or chess.
I look forward for your opinions.

Reply]
Why waste YEARS of your life to learn modern dance, when your intrests lay in the original, and traditional fighting arts of China?

It seems rather dumb, as Authentic Chinese martial arts are stand alone systems each with their own beginner fundementals, intermediate and advanced methods of training. They are unrelated to the modern perfomance stuff. It's a waste of time to learn the modern performance stuff, just as studying the intricacies of "Ice cream" recipies would be a waste of time as a pre requisite for earning an MBA.

My god, did Royal Dragon somehow cast off whatever that was troubling him :)

[mantis108]

Modern Wushu like NHL Hockey breeds nothing but ignorance. Now, if you want to be the white knight of Modern Wushu, please at least take the time to understand WTF is the cause before you actually champion it.

Here's my take on the matter from another post:


Here's how I define the terms:

Traditional Wushu :- it's any Chinese martial arts that has a functional corpus with a real and tangeable lineage. It has a practical approach to train any and all people to fight.

Modern Wushu & San Shou :- Sports that are created by the Communist government since 1950s with Traditional Wushu collaborators.

Kung Fu :- A distinct and unique Chinese martial arts developed out of ancient and traditional knowledge that has an unmistakable Chinese worldview (ie Yinyang, 5 phases, etc). It is a highly philosophical, spiritual as well as functional personal experssion in combative form.

So you see Kung Fu can be any Wushu but not all Wushu is Kung Fu. In truth, Kung Fu should rather be categorized as Wu Xue (martial academia) not just art. At the very core of Kung Fu, it is about education. Learning to be human and Learning to be a gentleman (or lady) who have combat courage (Yong). It's truely a union of the Gang and Rou and a marriage of civil and martial.

However, such a person, nay, a scholar/sage is intimidating to any totalitarian state. This is the reason CPC decided to implement the master plan -Fragmentation by Sportification of Martial Academia. You divide and you conquer them much easier one by one. Modern Wushu became forms only and it got the reputation that it can't fight (because it really can't due to the way that it is taught). Then they introduce San Shou the sport which is "practiced regularly by the military". Folks, we have you by the balls and don't you forget it.

Most Kung Fu people really can't be bothered. Only those who are interested in self promoting or groupies as they call it in North America would rather collaborate. It is so far successful in creating a rift between people who holds to the truth and people who found bliss in ignorance. When you have star power people such as Jet Li comparing Kung Fu masters to any and all grass root level tradesmen in restaurants, hair Saloons and even taxi drivers, you know the level of ignorance is astounding.

A people without understand its past does not have a future. Kung Fu and traditional Wushu can lead us to the understanding of traditional knowledge and in turn help us be all that we can be. The best of sportification can do is to put you in a piece of fake gold hanging at your neck and drag you into the abyss of self gratification.

No offense, it would be very scary if your kind of ignorant attitude and bias towards Kung Fu (perhaps just the tip of the iceberg) still get you a PhD. But then this is Northern America. ...:eek:

Mantis108

[Flying-Monkey]

A little bit harsh, Mantis.

[Shaolinlueb]

god i tried to stay out of this conversation.

go to china. its all wushu, its all kung fu. only overseas have i seen the break up between modern and traditional. :rolleyes:

kung fu = hard work

wushu = martial arts. enjoy.

if you talking about the recent state of wushu, pick up the new issue and read the cover story. now be off and get a life instead of argueing about something on this board that has been done ten million times already.

[The Xia]

Gong Fu is a southern expression meaning "Time and Effort". It is mainly used to refer to Chinese martial arts but can be used for other things as well. I've heard people native to Southern China use Gong Fu to refer to all martial arts. For example, Karate would be called "Japanese Gong Fu" and so on. The reason why this term prevails in America is because the Chinese-American population is largely Southern. Also, Hong Kong culture is mostly Cantonese therefore Hong Kong folks will use the term. Wushu is a Mandarin expression. Originally, it referred to traditional martial arts. Many people still use the term in this manner. However, Americans use the term Wushu to refer to the performance art born out of the PRC. To distinguish the performance art from the traditional fighting styles, I add the word “modern” to the front. The PRC Performance Art = Modern Wushu and Traditional Chinese Martial Arts = Gong Fu or Wushu (although I prefer using Gong Fu to avoid confusion).
I'd say this tidies it up alright. Any questions or comments?

[Samurai Jack]

I have one.

Why does a person attempting to get an Asian Studies degree (but who does not practice a martial art) come to a kungfu forum asserting that he knows the truth about martial arts, and that all of us are wrong?

Shouldn't the person be asking questions? Trying to learn? Isn't that the purpose of studying something?

Okay, I guess I had several questions.

Rhetorical questions.

I want an Asian Studies degree.

[Shaolinlueb]

i feel Asian Studies degree are about as valuable as astronomy degrees and art degrees......

go back to college and keep believeing what those books tell you. :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

now now, an art degree is valuable as is astronomy or any other.

why be down on an arts degree? it's probably the most well rounded degree you can get and you'll find taht more people in positions of management possess a liberal arts degree than any other type.

of course, there is a shift towards the mba following that these days, which of course makes sense seeing as business and science are two worlds of thinking apart.

[Shaolinlueb]

now now, an art degree is valuable as is astronomy or any other.

why be down on an arts degree? it's probably the most well rounded degree you can get and you'll find taht more people in positions of management possess a liberal arts degree than any other type.

of course, there is a shift towards the mba following that these days, which of course makes sense seeing as business and science are two worlds of thinking apart.


i never said liberal arts. liberal arts is useful. im tlaking an art art degree/ its useless. i know a couple people with them and they are working at a grocery store. astronomy is almost useless, can get a cool job if you want.

[Flying-Monkey]

i never said liberal arts. liberal arts is useful. im tlaking an art art degree/ its useless. i know a couple people with them and they are working at a grocery store. astronomy is almost useless, can get a cool job if you want.

You know nothing about astronomy. A degree in astronomy or astrophysics, is a degree in physics. You can get many jobs in science and technology with that degree. Astronomy is not just looking in a telescope. That is a small part of an astronomer's job.:mad:

[omarthefish]

i feel Asian Studies degree are about as valuable as astronomy degrees and art degrees......

go back to college and keep believeing what those books tell you. :rolleyes:

Theses days, an Asian Studies degree is actually pretty valuable. China is the number 2 political and economic power in the world now. Korea is a hot topic. Both govt. and industry are scrambling to keep up to speed on the region.

[Shaolinlueb]

You know nothing about astronomy. A degree in astronomy or astrophysics, is a degree in physics. You can get many jobs in science and technology with that degree. Astronomy is not just looking in a telescope. That is a small part of an astronomer's job.:mad:

like i said, useless unless its like star trekk out there.

[omarthefish]

That struck me as either a really dumb, really ignorant or maybe just a really sarchastic thing to say but at the time you posted it I couldn't think of the counterexamples off the top of my head and didn't feel like googling but since a tangentially similar subject came up on another forum today and in a way that was relevant, I'm going to cut and past a parts of 2 different peoples posts there in response to the idea that astronomy is useless "unless its like star trekk out there."


...high energy physics is practical . . . what I mean is stuff like: atomic clocks have allowed GPS to come about which in turn has allowed people have those cool GPS units that tell them where the nearest Starbucks is ....



- Fission reactors which supply over 16% of the world's electricity
- X-ray imagining used everyday in hospitals around the world
- computed tomography (CT) scanners
- heck many offshoots of nuclear medicine in general used to detect cancers/tumors, bone fractures, blood clots, heart conditions, internal bleeding, etc, etc, etc.......

And before you get your proverbial panties in a bunch, be aware that high energy physics IS part of astronomy, a big part.