The way a sifu presents himself

[The Xia]

I was curious as to what opinions are on this topic. What are the dos and dont's that a Sifu should follow on how he presents himself.



I'll start out with a major don't. I notice that there are some non-Chinese that try to beat Chinese people at being Chinese. All sorts of strange haircuts (including Queues) and outfits that look like they've been stolen from a Shaw Brothers set are common with these types. In my opinion, presenting yourself in this manner is a major don't. I think it looks really bad.

[yutyeesam]

Depends if that Sifu wants to have a commercial school or not. If they want a commerical school, then Kung-Fu outfit during class, biz-casual when at the school but not teaching.

People have to take you seriously.
One challenge I know new school owners face is showing kindness without it getting mistaken for weakness. And on the flip side, showing strength without arrogance.

-123

[BoulderDawg]

I could really care less what my teacher wears, how long his hair is or, frankly, whether or not he takes a bath every day! All I care about is whether or not he knows his stuff and is able to convey (or teach) it to others.

I like a teacher who is hands on. In other words he's out working with lower level students instead of depending on his instructors or higher level students to do this.

My own pet peeves are rather small and doesn't effect my training. They include a lot of traditional crap. I'm not a big fan of all the bowing or calling the teacher "master" or "Sifu". Also at our school you have to take off your shoes before you can enter the training or school area....I thought this was more Japanese instead of Chinese but at our school it's a rule.

[David Jamieson]

be yourself and know your ****. putting on airs is fake.

[David Jamieson]

I could really care less what my teacher wears, how long his hair is or, frankly, whether or not he takes a bath every day! All I care about is whether or not he knows his stuff and is able to convey (or teach) it to others.

I like a teacher who is hands on. In other words he's out working with lower level students instead of depending on his instructors or higher level students to do this.

My own pet peeves are rather small and doesn't effect my training. They include a lot of traditional crap. I'm not a big fan of all the bowing or calling the teacher "master" or "Sifu". Also at our school you have to take off your shoes before you can enter the training or school area....I thought this was more Japanese instead of Chinese but at our school it's a rule.


taking off your shoes has a very practical reason. not wearing yoru street shoes in class does as well.

a) it keeps any crap off the floor that you train on that you may drag in with your shoes.

b) training in street shoes also brings a chance taht hard objects or sharp objects are in your shoe and could cut your sparring partner.

its a chinese thing too to take your shoes off at the door of the training hall. It's a western thing too in a lot of gyms. IE no street shoes on a b-ball court and so on.

[The Xia]

There is no need to train barefoot. There are plenty of great martial arts shoes on the market. Not to mention, it is a Japanese custom to remove shoes indoors. I have not heard of or seen this custom in any traditional Chinese environment David. What custom are you referring too?

[David Jamieson]

never mind customs. It's not a custom, it's a practocal thing to keep crap off the floor by not wearing street shoes on the tarining hall floor.

no tradition about it, just common sense.

[MasterKiller]

Street shoes on mats = Staph infections.

[The Xia]

You can always wipe your street shoes off at a doormat or something. You can also wear another pair of shoes to train in. Putting in training time in street shoes (and clothes) isn't a bad idea. After all, if you have a street encounter it is highly unlikely you'll be wearing the clothes and shoes you train in (unless you always train in street attire). I don't see barefoot training as a necessity but hey if that's what you like, go nuts!

[MasterKiller]

Wiping your shoes does not remove bacteria or fungus.

I have no problem with people having a dedicated pair of shoes ONLY worn on the mats, but sparring should be done barefooted.

[David Jamieson]

Im not talking about training barefoot, Im talking about taking off the shoes that you wear on the street.

wearing shoes is fine so long as they are as mk put it a dedicated pair for training.
They can even be mirror of what you normally wear on your feet depending on what's allowed. IE steel toe boots in a tkd school is just plain stupid. lol

[EarthDragon]

Bolder dawg
Actually taking off shoes worn outside is a strict custom in every other part of the world except here, they do it in italy, france, spain, china and japan.
I have been to all these places at different dwellings and everyone takes off thier shoes as respect for the living quaters as opposed to the enviroment , if you walk through the fish market in jinpa would you not take off your shoes before you walked on your rugs when you got home?

As far as practical as everyone else said crap on your shoes would never touch my tatami mats. Nor would as DJ said boots be worn to kick.

Hell if its OK to go bowling and follow thier rules about shoes why wouldnt you do the same for the place you get your life lessonal education from? does that also not teach you respect for others property?
Im confused about students respect out there, whats wrogn with these schools and thier teachings? i tell my students to say yes sir and no sir when talking to elders at school or out of school this is just simple respect and politeness.................

[The Xia]

When I talked about using street shoes while training I wasn't talking about sparring on mats. There are many aspects of Kung Fu training that can be done with your street shoes. Do you think your Kung Fu anscesters wore fancy uniforms?

As for the "Yes sir" "No sir" aspect of many martial arts schools. It has a bigger presence in Japanese martial arts (most likely due to the nation's past militarism) then it does in Chinese. I never agreed with that kind of teaching methodology. A sifu isn’t a drill instructor.

[jigahus]

When I talked about using street shoes while training I wasn't talking about sparring on mats. There are many aspects of Kung Fu training that can be done with your street shoes. Do you think your Kung Fu anscesters wore fancy uniforms?

As for the "Yes sir" "No sir" aspect of many martial arts schools. It has a bigger presence in Japanese martial arts (most likely due to the nation's past militarism) then it does in Chinese. I never agreed with that kind of teaching methodology. A sifu isn’t a drill instructor.

The yes sir, no sir part I tend to agree with. But they say it's a sign of respect.

[BoulderDawg]

At our school any kind of shoes are forbidden on the training floor. I guess the reasons are based in grounding.....I don't really know. I don't believe it has anything to do with disease or bacteria. I do know I sling a ton of sweat on the floor that's soaked up by the carpet. As does everyone else so I'm sure it's teaming with germs!

I was just wondering how you handle the "respect" aspect at your school. Are "elders" at your school people that are older than you or do they include people of higher rank or longer training? I find all this bowing and elaborate ceremony as unnecessary. I show common courtesy to all at the school but I really fail to see the need to go through some big ritual. I know I don't need MA training to learn respect or honor. I learned that growing up.

[jera]

In my old TKD school we had to take off our shoes in the 'waiting' area, Everything was done barefoot.

[Chief Fox]

1. After being in business for 10 years sifu should have at least some high level students.
2. When you sprain your ankle in class, sifu shouldn't say "I don't have any ice" shrug his shoulders and go back to teaching class.
3. Sifu shouldn't share financial information about the school with regular students. ie: "I'm just hoping we can make rent this month".
4. Sifu shouldn't have a festival on Saturday teaching an advanced duel weapon form and let everyone who can pay attend, including beginner students.
5. Sifu should not ignore his higher ranking students when they say "I want to focus more on applications and less on forms".
6. Sifu should not try to blend 5 different and sometimes contradicting styles because he himself doesn't actually have a complete style.
7. Sifu should not teach things that he has only learned from video.
8. Sifu should not let beginners spar on their very first night in class.
9. When a student builds a website for the school, sifu should at least look at it. Especially one that is generating walk-in traffic.
10. Sifu shouldn't borrow money from a student to close the old school and re-open a new one that is 20 miles away from the old one.

My "X" sifu did all of these and it took my 3.5 years to find it all out.

He also wore shoes in class! :D

[EarthDragon]

boulderdawg,
I was just wondering how you handle the "respect" aspect at your school. Are "elders" at your school people that are older than you or do they include people of higher rank or longer training?

elders in the kung fu family are based on knowledge, not age.


I find all this bowing and elaborate ceremony as unnecessary. I show common courtesy to all at the school but I really fail to see the need to go through some big ritual. I know I don't need MA training to learn respect or honor. I learned that growing up.

Bowing is humbling yourself to what you are being taught. I always tell my students you are not bowing to me... you are bowing to the knowledge that i have learned and are willing to share then i bow back and thank them for accepting the knowledge and practicing it.

remember your teacher owes you nothing you must deserve what a you are being taught and if that means following some tradition as silly as you think it is you should at least respect him.

[BoulderDawg]

In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he's been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt. Also in our school we have plenty of students in their 30s, 40s and 50s who have not been in the program as long. If you think these older students should treat this kid as an elder then, in my opinion, your sense of giving respect is warped!

>>>>My teacher owes me nothing??????<<<<

Then he sure as hell better give me all that money back that I paid him.:D

[Blacktiger]

In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he's been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt. Also in our school we have plenty of students in their 30s, 40s and 50s who have not been in the program as long. If you think these older students should treat this kid as an elder then, in my opinion, your sense of giving respect is warped!

>>>>My teacher owes me nothing??????<<<<

Then he sure as hell better give me all that money back that I paid him.:D

Far out 3 years for a black belt is quick :eek:

[BoulderDawg]

Far out 3 years for a black belt is quick :eek:

Personally I think it's should be the minimum. And that only if the students in question really, really works hard.

I do think that in my opinion they award belts a little too quickly in my school. I've been the program for almost a year now and I've been a brown belt for a month and a half. I'm just now actually getting some of the basics down to where I can move on to other things...However that's neither here nor there. I really don't take a whole lot of stock in what color belt you wear....it's what you know.

[Baji]

If I was a sifu I would try and present myself in a humble manner and dress a certain way to make the envornment we are training in traditional and peaceful. Thats just how I would be.

[The Xia]

Boulderdawg-The opposite can be true. You can have a friendly, respectable young person and a real jerk that's older then him. People are people, regardless of age.
EarthDragon-Bowing to each other and drill sergeant style teaching are two different things. It is the latter which I do not agree with. As for deserving training, you get what you put in. You work hard, you get results. That's the great thing about Kung Fu. In most cases you pay the teacher. Therefore, you deserve to be taught.

[monkeyfoot]

my sifu says 'on the street, who doesnt wear shoes'

craig

[David Jamieson]

my dad only wear shoes in winter.

more often than not, he goes barefoot on the street.
subsequently, his soles are like cowhide. lol


not to mention the hundreds of thousands in various countries around the world who don't wear shoes. But that's here nor there, just sayin. :)

[TenTigers]

"I find all this bowing and elaborate ceremony as unnecessary. I show common courtesy to all at the school but I really fail to see the need to go through some big ritual. I know I don't need MA training to learn respect or honor. I learned that growing up."
hmmmmm. perhaps you didn't.

"In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he's been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt."

This is exactly why it must be taught in the class. This should never happen in a good,traditional school. Personally, I don't tolerate egos in my school. There is no place for it. They don't get through my door. I have an interview, first on the phone, then in person, then an intro class. If they show signs of attitude, we simply say we don't have any openings at this time and we will call them when we do. However, it usually isn't an issue, as most of my students come through referrals. If a student brings someone in, they vouch for their character.

As far as stating that since you are paying HIM, you deserve to be taught whatever you like. This puts your Sifu on the level of a waiter, with your Mo-Kwoon being a resteraunt and you pick and choose what you will and will not be taught.
Call me a dinosaur, but I tell my students that they are simply buying a membership to the Mo-Gwoon. What do they get? Nothing, but a roof over their heads, and a place to train with quality instruction. Everything else they have to work for. It must be earned-with sweat, and dedication. Just like on a ranch or a farm-"You don't work, you don't eat"
I suppose I am a throwback to a time gone by. I don't have a huge glitzy school,no fancy uniforms which change with each level, or upsell membership, no patches,karate kid headbands. Just a school t-shirt and sash and pants. Oh, and we wear wrestling boots. We also spar with them on as well.
BUT-my students are respectful,humble,and hard workers. The younger ones must maintain a specific grade point average, and most of them are honor roll students. The parents think this is the best thing that has happened to their kids, and the adults bring their kids to train as well. Scoff if you want-it's been working so far.

[monkeyfoot]

well im a brit and not a yank/aussie/kiwi

[Chief Fox]

"I find all this bowing and elaborate ceremony as unnecessary. I show common courtesy to all at the school but I really fail to see the need to go through some big ritual. I know I don't need MA training to learn respect or honor. I learned that growing up."
hmmmmm. perhaps you didn't.

"In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he's been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt."

This is exactly why it must be taught in the class. This should never happen in a good,traditional school. Personally, I don't tolerate egos in my school. There is no place for it. They don't get through my door. I have an interview, first on the phone, then in person, then an intro class. If they show signs of attitude, we simply say we don't have any openings at this time and we will call them when we do. However, it usually isn't an issue, as most of my students come through referrals. If a student brings someone in, they vouch for their character.

As far as stating that since you are paying HIM, you deserve to be taught whatever you like. This puts your Sifu on the level of a waiter, with your Mo-Kwoon being a resteraunt and you pick and choose what you will and will not be taught.
Call me a dinosaur, but I tell my students that they are simply buying a membership to the Mo-Gwoon. What do they get? Nothing, but a roof over their heads, and a place to train with quality instruction. Everything else they have to work for. It must be earned-with sweat, and dedication. Just like on a ranch or a farm-"You don't work, you don't eat"
I suppose I am a throwback to a time gone by. I don't have a huge glitzy school,no fancy uniforms which change with each level, or upsell membership, no patches,karate kid headbands. Just a school t-shirt and sash and pants. Oh, and we wear wrestling boots. We also spar with them on as well.
BUT-my students are respectful,humble,and hard workers. The younger ones must maintain a specific grade point average, and most of them are honor roll students. The parents think this is the best thing that has happened to their kids, and the adults bring their kids to train as well. Scoff if you want-it's been working so far.
Your school sounds like a great place.

[BoulderDawg]

I think that maybe your attitude is the one that needs work. It seems that general everyday resepct that we show all people (parents, sons and daughters, co-workers, teachers or even just people we meet on the street) is not good enough for you. To assume that somehow my parents (and from your indication, most American parents) are not teaching there children respect and honor is highly arrogant on your part. I know I would not want my children attending your school. If you made certain demands; such as wanting to know my child's GPA or private things about their lifestyle you would be told it was none of your business.

Also, the idea of picking and chosing your students is elitist and snobbish in our society. I would advise you to be careful. In this country you simply cannot refuse service to someone because "they show signs of attitude". You might find yourself on the wrong end of a discrimination lawsuit one of these days.

Finally, I never said I wanted to "pick and choose" what I learn. However if I pay my hard earned money for top notch instruction then that's what I expect.

[David Jamieson]

actually, boulderdawg, a sifu is more than allowed to pick and choose whoever he sees fit to take as a student and he doesn't have to tolerate one minute of anything that is contradictory to the way he wants to do things.

that's the way it is. It is not a pay a fee get a service type thing it is a learning path that is unlike pretty much any other. It is exclusive and at many points it is very elite.

those who endure, can be easily seen in a crowd of pay for service types or what have you.

a "me first" attitude will get you nowhere and get you nothing in a traditional kungfu school and if that doesn't suit you, I wouldn't worry about it because you're not likely to get any anyway. the door is closed to you at the onset.

just sayin

[BoulderDawg]

actually, boulderdawg, a sifu is more than allowed to pick and choose whoever he sees fit to take as a student

I don't know where you live but in the United States this is not true. If this guy runs a school and advertises for students he has to accept whoever has the money and accepts the rules of the school.

It's a business like any other. If you refuse service to anyone you had better have a better reason than "I don't like his attitude".

From what I understand in a "traditional" Kung Fu school the masters would beat the kids to make them conform. The owner of my school related a story about a recent trip to China where a sufi beat an eight year old kid with a cane!......and this was modern day!:eek:

Give me non-traditional training any day!

[Chief Fox]

I don't know where you live but in the United States this is not true. If this guy runs a school and advertises for students he has to accept whoever has the money and accepts the rules of the school.
WRONG!

He doesn't have to accept anybody. With your line of thinking everybody who has the money to attend college would get in regardless of their GPA.

He can pick and choose to his hearts content. Now if he is refusing service to people based on their race, color, religion, or national origin, then that's a different story.

[TenTigers]

"To assume that somehow my parents (and from your indication, most American parents) are not teaching there children respect and honor is highly arrogant on your part"
BD, I won't argue with you. I don't know you so I would not assume anything about yur parents. But as far as the rest of your statement, yes.
I have been teaching for over twenty years, and have two children of my own. I have seen every type of parent and child, between my experience with the schools, my kids' friends,and what has walked through my door. And YES, parents, and teachers are not teaching respect and honor.
A child develops his opinions and viewpointsand VALUES from their enviornment. Their first "teachers' are their parents. Then they start to socialize with other children, in pre-school, elementary school, etc. These other children also have been "taught" by their parents as well.People start to gravitate towards like minded individuals-which become their peer group, and share the same values. People will gravitate or degenerate to the group they are with, like boats in a rising or ebbing tide.
Who are the role models we grow up with now? Years ago, kids wanted to become President. Nowadays, politicians are crooks, liers and theives, Priests are kid-touchers,pro atheletes are criminals and drug addicts,rock starts are gangstas, police are corrupt.
So who is left to stand as role models? Why do you think that traditional schools have a creed? Yun Yee Do Duk-Compassion,Loyalty,Virtue and Morality.
These are ideals that many of us still hold dear and try to live by, and set examples for the students we teach-young and old alike.
Hohk Yun, Hohk Yee, Hohk Gung-Fu
-learn compassion and loyalty before learning Gung-Fu.
Jun Jo, Jun Si, Jun Do-Duk.
-Honor your ancestors, Honor Sifu, Honor the path of Virtue and Morality.

"If you are able to accomplish the Art, be Humble.
If you meet a Student and you know he is an evil person;
then you would not teach him even for 10,000 pieces of Gold.
And if he is not Righteous and has no Honour,
You would not teach him even if he were your Relative.
But if he is Righteous and has Honour,
You should teach him

even if he is a Stranger to you and has no Money. "
-this was quoted from Jook Lum SPM creed.

[hskwarrior]

First, If A Person Opens A Commercial School He Has To Basically Take In Any Type Of Student That Is Paying The Kind Of Money He Needs To Continue Operating His School. This Separates This Kind Of Sifu From The More Private Or Small School Ones.

As A Sifu Who Doesn't Have To Pay Rent, Have Insurance, Or Anything Like That...i Have The Right To Pick And Choose Who I Will Personally Train. The Things I Look Out For Is If The Person Interested In Learning From Me Will He Or She Benefit Me Or Cause Me Trouble.

I Don't Like Teaching Someone Who Only Wants To Come In One Day OUT Of A 4 day A Week Class Schedule. It Is My Right To Stop Or Deny Teaching Someone Like That. What I Do With My Own School Is My Own Business.

I Look For Things In A Potential Student, And If Any Of That Conflicts With What I'm Trying To Accomplish Then I Do What I Gotta Do.

So To Be Real, Yes, A Private Martial Art Teacher Can Pick And Choose, While The Commercial One Has To Accept Anyone With Money In Their Hands. On The Other Hand, If The Teacher Already Has A Good Number Of Students And Things Are Running Smoothly, He Can In Fact Refuse Or Deny Any Future Students Based On The Standards He Set For His School.


Peace

[The Xia]

The thing is, with many commercial schools you are a customer. Therefore, an owner of a commercial school that is more a businessman then a traditional sifu cannot have the same expectations from his students as a traditional sifu can. This is only fair.

hskwarrior,
What do you look for in a potential student?

[hskwarrior]

when i'm considering a potential student......

i look for first and foremost the level of respect they have.

I watch to see if they are stand up types, or shady arse individuals. if they can be shady to someone else, then they can be shady to me.

i like the types who are not afraid to get in their and get their hands dirty.

I like the ones who are loyal (when they choose this is what they want). I have a good group of students with me, so i'm good in that area.

i look for those who can devote some time to learning.

i look for those who are open to learning, regardless of what they already know.

I also look for skill, adaptability, willingness, drive, and hunger for what they are learning.

basically, i just want some honest folks, who work hard, play hard, and will honor the lineage they have chose to become a part of.

there's more, but this is what i conjured up on the drop of a dime.

peace

[EarthDragon]

bolderdawg, you said

In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he's been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt. Also in our school we have plenty of students in their 30s, 40s and 50s who have not been in the program as long. If you think these older students should treat this kid as an elder then, in my opinion, your sense of giving respect is warped!

>>>>My teacher owes me nothing??????<<<<

Then he sure as hell better give me all that money back that I paid him.

you said it all.......... if you school promotes a BB in 3 years and you trained for a year and a half and you are a brown level FIND A NEW SCHOOL. thats ridiuclous to say the least. your payment means nothing monatary valu is whats wrong with most of the so -called training halls in this county, just becsue you pay for something you think you deserve the right for anything else except for teaching, if you dont like the rules then quit!

I have refused hundreds of walk ins based on attitude, I dont need the money so badly that I will comprimise the integrity of my self, students of my kwon. I have the right to choos whome ever and whenever i teach.

[The Xia]

You have the option to do this because you do not run a commercial school. You require students be respectful and hard working. However, you don't get nuts with lofty character ideals. In my opinion, many people get the idea of character building in martial arts wrong. A kwoon isn't a morality clinic. Your character changes when you train hard and improve yourself. You become self disciplined and have greater self-awareness. These characteristics then carry over to other aspects of your life. It's as simple as that. A sifu shouldn't aim to turn a student into Dudley Do Right.

[hskwarrior]

you're right about the last comments you made.

see, i stay down to earth, and up with the times so i can relate to my younger students.

however, out here is san fran it's important to know how to defend yourself, so i do train my students to handle their business if the occasion arises.

however, i do want my students to become outstanding citizens, but i will not interfere with their lives outside of gung fu. as gung fu people, i feel they should present themselves in a positive light, but to also emit if there's going to be trouble not to mess with them.

here's another example, one of my older (timewise) students got busted with a pound of weed in his car while wearing our school jacket. I told my sifu about what happened and my sifu advised me to let that student go. the reason being is that by getting busted with all that weed while wearing our jacket he brought negative attention to us.

the only thing i try to pass on to my students is what ever they do in life represents me. if they get in trouble i look bad. but if they look good i look good and so does our school.

see what i mean?

hsk

[EarthDragon]

The xia, you point echoes with appluase................ EVERY SCHOOL should have the same point of view when accepting new students not just Hskwarrior's this is the problem with the crap schools out there that teach it.Commercial or not they should have a certain level of dignity and respect and screeneing to weed out the jerks no matter how much moneyt they have!

Hell if that were the case this forum would have nothing but intelligent, respectful conversation between martial artists and other martial artists. Instead its like high school sometimes.

[hskwarrior]

martial arts has become somewhat damaged in my opinion when money got involved. Commercial schools make all the money but can envy the skills, dedication, and truly learned abilities a student who has put in his whole life in training.

while on the other hand the small schools eny the fame, money, and publicity achieved by going commercial, but are proud to have awesome students that know how to use the gung fu transmitted to them in the way it was meant to be used.

if the two were to ever cross paths, man martial arts would be in a better place.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

and that's the whole idea about being Self-disciplined;) :D

[The Xia]

Commercial schools need money to stay open. If you as a commercial sifu do everything traditional and only accept students that train hard and are respectful, then the place will likely close. This is an unfortunate truth. So what do you do from here? Well, you have options. Option 1, become very commercial and put in belt testing, ranks, fancy uniforms, water down tough training, etc. Option 2, give each person what he wants. If someone is there for fitness, that's what you give him. If someone is there to learn so and so thing, give him that. If someone trains hard, is interested in real Kung Fu, and is respectful, train him in a traditional manner. Take him as an "in door" disciple. Give what is wanted. Respect, loyalty, and willingness to train hard are important in someone who truly wants to learn Kung Fu. However, “yes sir” “no sir”, 100 pushups because you are 5 minutes late, lots of morality talk, etc are not things I agree with.

[Li Kao]

Where did this idea that martial arts schools have to accept any student willing to pay come from? It's not like community college, where anybody can just sign up and pay and you're in.

The commercial schools are legitimate businesses and so in some respect, it's in their best financial interest to take on any willing students, but still, it's not like they are some kind of public government organization where any and everyone is entitled to be a member.

Sifus have the right to choose or let go any student who doesn't meet his/her approval, so long as it's not an illegal discrimination as stated before. My last sifu was somewhat more selective, and he often turned away students who he felt weren't sincere, or were ****y/brash. It's his school, so right or wrong, it's his decision to make.

[Li Kao]

Xia,

My last school was alot like the second scenario you described, where the school pretty much tailored the instruction to meet the student's desires. Not to say that the students decided what was going to be taught -- but what I mean is, there were some people going who mainly wanted the exercise, and there were some who only wanted to work on forms, and some who wanted to focus on practical techniques. And so there were smaller classes were you could go to learn/practice san shou, there was a weapons class, a chin na class, etc. On the most part, it worked because everyone was getting what they wanted to get out of the class. If you just wanted to show up, do some conditioning and forms you could do that. If you wanted to spar or learn joint locks, etc. there were small focus groups, and you could choose to go to those.

In regards to the whole "respect" thing -- my schools have always been pretty lax about that, but I don't see a problem with bowing or saluting your sifu/sigung or even your sihing. It's kind of like a salute is to the military -- just a simple way of conveying your respect and showing you are humble.

[The Xia]

As I said, I have no problem with respect. I'm just not a fan of the boot camp teaching methodology and Dudley Do Right morality indoctrination.

[PangQuan]

it seems your idea against bowing to your teacher and such is because you are american. (edit, this is an assumption, my appologies)

it is not an american tradition to bow in any case for anything. we have our own. we will often shake hands...especially when in a meeting with a teacher, boss, or superior in any business matter. this is common cultural responses to such situations. in china, before the cultural revolution and the west gave much of its business manerisms to the east, this same exact form of respect was given in the form of bowing. all be it for different reasons.

we shake hands to show a form of trust, giving forth our weapon hand empty to the other man. in the east, depending on region or country we bow in different ways. we lower our guard somewhat, show our empty hands, and give respect and trust.

and to this day, this tradition is still upheld, although the western ideas are very prominent in business. and as an american, its generally all you see.

remember that kung fu did not start in america, thus the cultural cross overs and expectations to adhere to some form of cultural tradition.

it would be a total lack of respect to remove all that is chinese from our studies simply because we are selfish americans.

much of your arguments seem to stem from a VERY western ideal and mindset.

nothing wrong there, your a westerner. as am i. im an american and will never nor can i ever change that.

however i can adapt to environments like any other human, humble myself, and pay respects due.

if you meet the ceo of a major company you work for, do you say "sorry i dont shake hands" simply because this is not your custom or belief....

or do you shake the **** mans hand....

its really just common sense and a meshing of cultural traditions and beliefs...if you refuse to bow, or take your shoes off, or any other such traditions. go to a place that does not enforce these things.

some are willing to intake some small format of a cultural tradition, in order to learn a specific tradition or study of said culture.

[The Xia]

Which poster are you directing this at?

[jera]

Personally I think it's should be the minimum. And that only if the students in question really, really works hard.

I do think that in my opinion they award belts a little too quickly in my school. I've been the program for almost a year now and I've been a brown belt for a month and a half. I'm just now actually getting some of the basics down to where I can move on to other things...However that's neither here nor there. I really don't take a whole lot of stock in what color belt you wear....it's what you know.

I agree with you fully. In my old school you could literaly be a black belt in 14 months. thats one of the reasons i quit TKD, we had around 6 eight year olds who were high red belt when i left, 2 of them had never even broken a board. After I saw a kid get promoted for "giving it his all" even though he only knew the first 6 (out of 18) techniqes to som-jang, I knew that I needed to find a new school and a new Martial arts system.

[Fuzzly]

I like my sash. I know how long I had to get my blue sash (over 6 months) and how long it took to get my blue w/ one green (longer) and the amount of sweat, blood, and a torn ACL it took to get them. (Not that the ACL was required, hehe). I kinda smile when I put it on, because to me it's not the sash that is important, but what the sash [I]represents.[I] Is this an ego thing?

Jera, in your school did the childrens' belts=adult belts? What I mean is, that in some schools, a child black belt might be an adult intermediate belt. They aren't exactly equal.

In my experience children need positive reinforcement. They need to hear "Good job!" and know that they are learning something an improving, or they quickly lose interest. This just seems to be the way a lot of kids are. I think belts/sashes can be used as incentives. However, I do think that there should be a distinction between a "child's black belt" and an "adult black belt".


Sorry if this made no sense, I just spent a couple hours on a Symbolic Logic midterm and my brain is a little fried.

[David Jamieson]

my observation regarding part of the question is that there is a growing lack of deferance in people towards the society, knowledge, insttutions etc around them.

people do not trust authority anymore because the only time we see any thing about authority, it is when they are messing up bad.

always the bad points of kungfu schools are brought up and beaten to death over and over again. it's boring when you know different really.

people in general lack deferance and in turn, respect for others tat they are not familiar or sight unseen accepted by or whatever reason. People demand respect, yet won't give it themselves and so on. And it's getting worse and it will continue to get worse before it gets any better if indeed it does get any better.

so, a little deferance to those who have what you do not but want, is not a big thing to ask. they come ready to teach, you should attend ready to learn without your own ego baggage in tow. even if the teacher has a bit of ego, maybe that's your lesson in how to quell your own?

[The Xia]

Every younger generation is called worse by the older ones. In the 60s, it was "These darn hippies. In my day, kids had respect!". In the 50s, it was "These darn greasers. In my day, kids had respect!". In the 20s, it was "These darn flappers! In my day, kids had respect!" :D
Many look at the past with rose tinted glasses. There was never a wholesome happy-go-lucky time like many believe. And not all that isn't wholesome throughout history can be blamed on the youth.

[jera]

Jera, in your school did the childrens' belts=adult belts? What I mean is, that in some schools, a child black belt might be an adult intermediate belt. They aren't exactly equal.



Yes, in my old school 'all belts are equal no matter what the age' as my 'X' master put it. when they turned 13 they were allowed to join the adult class and they kept their belt.

Though I do give credit to Emanual even though he was only 13 he kicked as high and harder than most people in the adult class.

[BoulderDawg]

I do the bowing in class without objection. I was only making an observation that I really don't see the need in it. In my school it's taken to the extreme. You bow when you walk in/out the door, you bow when you enter and leave the training area, you bow when you walk into the bathroom and then again when you leave, you bow to anybody you directly speak to. Personally I think it's a bit much! One time I forgot and actually entered the training area without bowing and with my shoes on to boot!!!!!! I thought the guy at the desk was going to have a heart attack!:D

Now as far as general respect I'm going to alter my view a little and say that children and adults should be handled a little differently. The children should be instructed to show a bit more respect to the elder teacher than another adult who is the same age as the teacher.

I think as adults we are going to learn a little better if we really feel at ease with our teachers. In an atmosphere of strict respect I think the student is going to be too stiff and worry more about showing disrespect than learning the material.

[Fuzzly]

At my school we bow when we enter/leave the building, before we get on/off the mat, and when I want to show respect to someone.

It's not all about respect, though. It is also about putting yourself in the right mindset. When I bow when I get in the building I'm saying to myself "All right, I'm here to train, I'm leaving all my crap out there. Let's focus!)

When ever <one word?> you bow, it gives you a second to focus. When I see my Sifu come on the mat, I think of bowing not only as respect, but it also gives me a second to go "Allright, time to change focus, Sifu is gonna say something important, listen up, dummy!".


Also, it never, ever hurts to show respect, wether that person is higher rank, lower rank, older, or younger. Being humble is a good thing.


<Note, humble does NOT equal timidness>


As for the childrens' belts=adult belts, I am not sure how I feel about that, I would have to discuss it with someone who held that sort of view to understand why.

[David Jamieson]

xia-

not remarking on generation gap issues which yes are always about from one generation to another, barring closed societies such as amish, mennonites etc etc.

the lack of deferance is beyond generation gap issues these days. Our whole society is one of distrust first, look out for yourself first and other detrimental social practices that will only lead to fractionalization of the whole.

there are groups that work at keeping it going on, community groups etc etc, but what's bombarding us daily as "cool" and "doable" is eating away at respect for self and others.

radio shows, movies, tv shows, what we read, much of it glorifies a form of radical individualism that goes beyond what would be acceptable around most everyone's table.

don't make me start listing crap and comparing to other eras. I think it is at the point where it's pretty self evident.

anyway, were I a sifu in a school, you can bet you ass I would have 1st say on who gets what from my hands. I don't care how much money you have and how much you believe in a market system, If I ain't diggin you, you ain't getting nothing but out my doors. :)

[golden arhat]

at our school we wear shorts and a t shirt the instructor leads by example
and everyone has a laugh and were all mates
we just train
no bowing
no saluting
no grades
if one person is senior its because he deserves to be

there is a sign on the apparatus we do dips on tho
it reads

"sticky fingers will not be tolerated
any violators will recieve a severe fukin beating
lol
thats valetudo
and i love it

[ngokfei]

Interesting Thread.

What does "Sifu" mean? Literally it means "Teacher". But there is also a change of characters to mean "Teacher Father".

If we take the 1st translation its pretty simple. just like Mr. Smith the History teacher in school. You attended class, you learned what he taught and if you messed up you failed and was sent to the principles office. Simple.

Now the "Teacher Father" meaning is based on Oriental Culture. We as Non-Orientals have a hard time understanding this. How can a stranger become a "Father Figure"? Again its about culture.

So our view of what a Sifu should be greatly differs.

As for Martial Arts schools we can also compare the Oriental and Non-Oriental comparisson.

We have the "Gym" (ie: boxing/wreastling, etc). The environment is based on our culture compared to a "Kwoon/Dojo, etc" which carries with it alot of customs etc.

America is the melting pot. We take a little bit of this and added it to that. Strange enough thats exactly what they did in Asia, which counts for all the various styles/disciplines that exist today.

Commercial versus Traditional

Thsi has been discussed many times. The taking of money in most western eyes is a sign of commercialism where in Asian society its a sign of respect & culture again.

For me one of my teachers said it perfectly. You will have customers and students. Customers you teach and don't care if they stay or leave. Students become like family. When they leave you miss them.

Respect:

Again its about the culture. Western Martial Arts school have been affected by various groups: The Family School, The Military School and the Religous School. Each promote various aspects of disicplin, loyalty and subserviance. Mix it together and you get the highly successful Commericial + Traditional Mega Schools that exist today.

the family school is very laid back. Most schools I've seen in asia like this have students walking right in the training area and waving to the teacher (no bow no nothing, its dad)

The military school is based on Discipline, Protocol, etc.

The religous school falls on the traditions and rituals (ancestors, altars, etc).

Shoes:

I'm a westerner. I trained Chinese martial arts first and I had to change into the KF boots at school. This wasn't mandatory but sneakers were required (some right off the street). It wasn't until I worked at a hospital did I understand all the germs and Dog Poop, Vomit, Glass, etc. That I had been tracking into my house. Aslo my wife if filipino and a nurse and shoes are left at the door with sandals for inside the house. I did some research and sure people didn't have shoes but they sure would wash there feet off before entering the house.

whoo long winded post

In the end its up to the customer/students desire. Some are looking for the laid back school while others are looking for the Discipline, self confidence while others are looking to explore a totally different culture. So the idea of a Commercial Traditional school is feasible.

But really how can a non-asian really tell people that they are a traditional school? Can they speak the language is probably the biggest hurdle. The main ideas of a style/system are written and spoken in the mother tongue. If I had to rely on my teachers explanations I wouldn't have gotten what little Understanding I have of my system. But that required learning at least how to read Chinese and explore the culture, history and phillosophy as well. Also its funny to see non-asians (especially ones who claim to be christian, etc) have an altar in their school, thats some funny sh.t. Guess its for decoration? Or are they trying to fool their customers/students into thinking something else, Probably this needs to be moved into another thread.

peace

[TenTigers]

BD-ok, NOW I hear what you are saying-when you referred to bowing, I had no idea you guys bowed to enter and leave the bathroom!
Some people tryto be more Asian than Asians. I visited a school, a supposedly Japanese Ninjitsu school (actually it was third generation from the founder-who did Hakko-Ryu and decided one day to wear black and call himself a ninja)
These guys "uss'ed" at everything. The guy would "uss" (osu?) when entering and leaving the dojo floor, but wait-it gets better. His attache' case was just inside the doorway of the dojo, and when he reached his hand in to get it,he uss;ed and when he brought it out, he "uss'ed"-mid sentance, without missing a beat.
"Yeah, we practice uss traditional uss koga ryu ninjitsu."
I know a commercial dojop near me that uses "uss" like it's an expression, like, "YEAH-awright!" whenever someone does something very good, they go,"UUUSSSSSS!!!" and give a high five! (excuse me while I puke):mad:
Here's one that you'll dig-
I was at a convention, and Stephen Hayes was lecturing. anyway, he recounted an experience he had with a school that was trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese. These guys would fold their gi's, and then place them in front of them while in seiza, and bow to the gi. In older times, Martial Artists would strip down to their undergarments to train. This is what the gi actually was. So in essence, these guys were bowing to their Fruit of the Loom's.:D :eek:

btw-fuzly is on the money about it creating a mindset. My school is very nondescript. No big sign, just small letters "Kung-Fu" on the door. We are over a laundramat in a fringe area. You walk up the stairs, and when you get to the top, you enter a different world. It's like a portal. We have a lobby, a moon gate so when you step onto the floor, you are in a place separate from the rest of the world. It is like throwing a switch. The bowing helps serve this purpose as well.
There are many reasons we do this. Respect towards others, respect of self,(when we bow, it is mutual-"If it weren't for me, you would not have a Sifu, but if it weren't for you, I would not be a Sifu") making a positive affirmation. all of the above.
But..some people as Ngok Fei stated do go waayyy overboard.

[The Xia]

I have heard that phrase (or whatever it is) before. I always assumed someone was messing up on "osu". Since TenTigers mentioned seeing it, it can’t be one person’s flub. Does anyone know what it is?

[Wong Ying Home]

When I was in China recentlly my extended family all laughed at me...beacuse I am a GwaiLoh speaking Mandarin with a Cantonese accent..now thats messed up !

[EarthDragon]

The Xia, "Uos" "usss" or however you want to spell it is simply meaning to understand. If i say you need to pick me up at eight you could reply "ous" that is if your japanese, its a common slang term.

[Helena Handbask]

Wiping your shoes does not remove bacteria or fungus.

I have no problem with people having a dedicated pair of shoes ONLY worn on the mats, but sparring should be done barefooted.

We don't train on mats, and Sifu insists shoes be worn. I think it just depends on the school and the teacher.

[The Xia]

Thanks for the information on "ussssss".

I'll also add that I agree with TenTigers on that school that does "ussssss" all the time. That is really cheesy. It gives a bad name to TMA.

[street_fighter]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that what they are saying (or trying to say) is 'osu'. It could be a number of things, especially because these people probably have no knowledge of the japanese language.

It very well could be 'yoshi'. that word is usually dragged out and the 'sh' sound is subtle so it sounds mostly like an 'yoosss'. Yoshi is like 'alright' or 'OK' or some affirmative response to something (a bit difficult to pinpoint its english equivalent). Actually, as much as I hate to bring this up, do you guys remember Mr.Miyogi in the karate kid? If I know what sound your talking about, he did it all the time. It is yosssshi. Osu is usually short an crisp, and not dragged out btw, and I can't imagine that they would be saying it. gaijins:p

[auntie]

This has been an interesting and thought provoking thread.
At our school, the we are expected to salute to the instructer at beginning and end of class, and also to each other when partnering for something.
This shows respect for the teacher and for each other.

Our Sifu is fairly free and easy though and some students call him Sifu while others use his name; he doesn't make an issue of it, unlike some other sifus in our association.

The posters who think that a commercial teacher must take anyone who can pay or go bust are overlooking the fact that if people with bad attitudes (usually the minority) are tolerated, other students are likely to just leave. It's probably worse for the business to lose lots of students because of one idiot, than to ban the idiot and keep the rest.
We generally find that most of the bully types don't like the free and easy atmosphere and go away by themselves but one person has been banned that I know of.

We only train barefoot when sparring, shoes are compulsory for other classes (because you're unlikely to be barefoot of attacked in the street!) but must not be outdoor shoes for the hygiene and damage to mats reasons already given.

Having found out for myself what can happen to a bare foot just from doing slapkicks I can say it's definitly safer with shoes on!

[wall]

I opened my own school two years ago and I must say that the hardest part was learning how to be a teacher.

By that I don't mean how to teach ... in 20 years of CMA I've learned from some excellent teachers and been assistant instructor many times ... but all of a sudden you are the "Master" (that's how most students see you although I define myself as 'instructor' and I ask to be called by name).

Now that takes adjusting to: as assistant to a Master you simply get given a group of people and take them through a technical program, but as the "master" yourself the way you must interact totally changes and it is initially not so simple to find the right mix.

I am learning every day how to be a better teacher, and I think the keys are:
- friendliness with discipline
- authority through positive leadership
- no ego trips
- competence and honesty
- clear and true information
- the right information, not too little nor too much
- 100% passion and effort in everything, every class, every teaching activity (even if you have the flu, you had a bad day, you have some problems ... you earn your students respect, and gratitude, and fees, and their 100% effort, by you giving them 100% in class)
- attention and care for everyone equally
- being a positive motivator
- traditions without obsessiveness
- look the part

The last one I find is important especially from a "first impression" point: for teachers of disciplines seen as forms of intense physical and mental training there is really no place for people out of shape. One thing is a 60y.o. shifu with some great young instructors in his school, but a solo teacher younger than 50 in my opinion must "practice what he preaches", and look like it.

Wall

[BoulderDawg]

I
The last one I find is important especially from a "first impression" point: for teachers of disciplines seen as forms of intense physical and mental training there is really no place for people out of shape. One thing is a 60y.o. shifu with some great young instructors in his school, but a solo teacher younger than 50 in my opinion must "practice what he preaches", and look like it.

Wall

I agree with that. I recently saw a TV program about MA that featured a master that was aroung 300 pounds! A teacher at least must have the appearance of having it together both mentally and physically.

As far as age: I don't think you have to be some ancient chinese guy with a goatee down to his navel to be a good teacher. However, just my personal perference, I prefer instructors over 30. We have this one student in our class who gets really angry when the Master turns over the class to this guy who's 20 year old. He feels that although this guy knows his stuff he's too young to be teaching........

[Ray Pina]

Where I'm at now, a teacher needs to have a skill set that I'm interested in, the ability to teach it and an honest attitude. Also, a positive training environment where egos are either checked at the door or a means to have them checked on the school floor is available.

I will never associate myself again with any organization that has members that are somehow beyond aproach or its members are not willing or able to practice what they teach.

That's it. Where they train, what they wear, what language they speak, what color or planet they are from doesn't matter to me.

As for shoes, I take my shoes off before entering anyone's home... maybe it's a habit I picked up as a kid in karate, but why would I want to drag any **** I picked up on the street, subway, etc., onto someone's floor.... where I prefer to sit and eat as well.

[TenTigers]

yah, but I don't want yer stank feet on my nice clean carpet either.
so when you come to visit, I'll throw your food out on the driveway.

[Fuzzly]

yah, but I don't want yer stank feet on my nice clean carpet either.
so when you come to visit, I'll throw your food out on the driveway.


Which is the reason for "indoor only" sandals, correct?

Which is more dirty, the bottom of shoes, which are rarely (if ever) washed, and walked through all kinds of enviroments,

Or

My feet that have been washed this morning, and put into a clean pair of socks?