how to do a proper bong sao?

[banterer]

Hi there,

Just learning this stuff and seem to be having an issue doing the bong sao properly.

I am told not to raise the shoulder but that the elbow has to be higher than the wrist and shoulder. I cannot seem to rotate the arm so that the elbow goes up without the shoulder naturally going up. My teacher says that when that happens I am not grounded/connected and that the BS will be weak.

My body is in great shape and I am not aware of any flexibility or disabilities associated with moving my limbs around but this BS thing is really getting to me.

Is it a flexibility issue or just never having done it before? Are there some kind of flexibility drills for this?

Thanks,
Jorge


PS. I am trying to find someone in the Silverlake/Eagle Rock/Alhambra/S.Pas area to practice with.

[k gledhill]

elbow level with your shoulder , the elbow -shoulder in a line forwards...X ing the c~line at the wrist forearm...

[Nick Forrer]

Bong sau is a common problem for beginners....although it is not just beginners who have bong problems....even after 8 years of training my teacher still corrects my bong sau:)

A common tendency especially at the start is to lift the bong like a karate rising block..this is incorrect..it should not rise but spiral forward instead towards the enemys centre...this forward spiralling action will naturaly divert the enemys punch/bridge and when combined with a slight turn of the horse/torso will give you a clear line of attack with your rear hand (wu sau)

WSL(my teachers teacher or sigung in cantonese) said the action of bong can be compared to pouring tea into a tea cup...if bong is the tea pot...fook sau is the tea cup...that analogy may help you

Bare in mind also that wing chun is not so much about finished static positions as it is about the route we take to get there....therefore make sure your emphasis is on function rather than form i.e. that your first priority is to get the job done not to look good...that said a useful guide when learning how to correctly execute the action of bong sau is for the upper arm (humerus) to end up 90 deg to the body/torso, for the elbow to be about the same height as the shoudler, for the forearm to be at a 45 deg angle relative to the body and for the wrist to not be on the centre but a bit further over (not too much though).

However remember these are just general guidelines...you may have to make adjustments relative to the height of your opponent...the situation you find yourself...the kind of pressure your opponent gives you etc.

[Nick Forrer]

BTW if your teacher says the elbow must be higher than the hand in bong sau to stop people hitting over the top of the bong and the hypothetical people in question are the same height as you then he doesnt understand LSJC properly (LSJC means forward springy energy that ensures your limbs instantaneously shoot forward when there is a gap...this is what you are training in the first section of SLT) . As soon as your ernemy lifts up his elbow to hit over the top you need to eat up the space he creates with your stance and structure...Not chase his hand upwards with your bong which is indirect and doesnt threaten his centre...in wing chun we fight the person not the hands.

[anerlich]

Jorge,

Do you do TWC (William Cheung's lineage)?

I don't know that it's strictly possible to raise the elbow higher than the shoulder without at least giving the appearance of raising the shoulder somewhat.

You want to raise the elbow without engaging the trapezius muscle, and without elevating the scapula or bending the neck or spine. It feels when I do it as taught like I am engaging the deltoid and rotator cuff but not the trap. If it feels like you're pulling your shoulder up toward your ear. you are engaging the trap. Just try to do it really reaxaed and try to work only the muscles you need to raise the elbow and spiral the fingers forward.

Hope this helps.

[Amp]

It helps me to think of the movement of a bong sau like that of a corkscrew.

[k gledhill]

...bong sao can be a tough one to understand if just seen and applied in chisao....when you see a boxer deflecting a punch by raising his lead arm elbow to knock it away using the outside of his forearm...roughly.

[AndrewS]

A little bit about this from an old thread

<http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37011&highlight=bong+sao+andrews>

Andrew

[banterer]

Jorge,

Do you do TWC (William Cheung's lineage)?

I don't know that it's strictly possible to raise the elbow higher than the shoulder without at least giving the appearance of raising the shoulder somewhat.

You want to raise the elbow without engaging the trapezius muscle, and without elevating the scapula or bending the neck or spine. It feels when I do it as taught like I am engaging the deltoid and rotator cuff but not the trap. If it feels like you're pulling your shoulder up toward your ear. you are engaging the trap. Just try to do it really reaxaed and try to work only the muscles you need to raise the elbow and spiral the fingers forward.

Hope this helps.

I have been meaning to ask him and he probably feels he has mentioned enough names for me to have figured it out but I have no idea who these people are so name upon name upon name is sort of lost on me but I'll ask.

When I do my bong, I do feel tension in my deltoid and none in my trap but my shoulder naturally does sort of "roll up". I can comfortably corkscrew the bs with my elbow up to my shoulder height but to go higher I feel some kind of tension/almost discomfort.

I do find that left arm bongs with much less discomfort than my right [I'm righty].
Jorge

[Kapten Klutz]

Very enlightening thread, thanks to y'all. :)

I've got a really stupid bong sao question, about the low bong sao (like if you do a double block with tan and low bong.) Does the low bong ideally block a low punch by being under it or over it?

[Nick Forrer]

Very enlightening thread, thanks to y'all. :)

I've got a really stupid bong sao question, about the low bong sao (like if you do a double block with tan and low bong.) Does the low bong ideally block a low punch by being under it or over it?

If I understand your description correctly the answer is under the punch. Dai (Low) bong sau is used to defend against an attack on the low line (it doesnt have to be a punch) when your hand is down i.e. when the hand is lower than the elbow. If your hand was higher than the elbow when the attack came in you would use gan sau or gum/dan sau (the action at the start of the second section of SLT)....to use bong sau in that situation would essentially involve two actions not one (the later being virtually always preferable). To repeat wing chun is about being simple direct and efficient.....not chasing hands or making elaborate movements

Low bong and tan together is a bit different...this action is Kwan sau and has many uses...it can be used to block a high round house kick if you dont have enough time to step in before it arrives...it can be used if someone has grabbed both of your wrists (in conjunction with either stepping in to them or pulling away)....it can be used to make space if someone tries to bear hug you...it can be used to counter if your enemy traps your hands (with jut sau say) and hits...in short its a versatile action with many applications

BTW If your Sifu cant answer these kind of questions in a way that satisfies you that should set off some alarm bells

[Kapten Klutz]

Thanks for the full answer. It makes a lot of sense:). I was just wondering right now and don't have Sifu handy. I'll ask someone at the club the same question and compare, it could be interesting.

[k gledhill]

the 'lower bongsao' in chum kiu is the same bong we use all the time ...
doing the bong shouldnt make you change your direction forwards while in an all out assault...

[stainlesschi]

elbow higher than the shoulder doesnt sound right to me but the corkscrew idea someone mentioned does,ive always found it quite a natural movement,turning the body with it also

[marcus_pasram]

A clip (http://youtube.com/watch?v=6kboVW5VoI4) of my SiFu discussing Bong Sau and one of its application from Chum Kiu form

Enjoy,