Need help at Empty Flower

[Ray Pina]

I was banned at empty flower, and martialy, they can think what they want, but now they are insulting my surfing because I used playful footage to balance figthing.

If someone has the time and inclination can someone post this message in their main forum. Thank you and I'll owe you one:

Title:Message from Ray Pina

Message:

To judge a whole based on a small part, being someone's fighting or surfing, is ignorant. I could have easily used these surfing clips if I wanted to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PKRxdMTSyQ

I wanted to balance figthing with some light hearted surfing.

As for banning someone who has broken no rule other than saying something that others don't want to hear.... that is cowardly. Sorry I did not come on and say everything is fine and dandy in the state of IMA. Your masters never faced the level of fighters that are out there today. Whether you face them and elivate your art's level is up to you.

I have my own boat to row, I need not rock yours further.

Ray Pina

[David Jamieson]

?

kinda a mixed message there ray don't you think?

you don't want to rock there boat, but you do want to rock the boat.

I think the banning was due to your challenging and what not more than the discussion over clips.

[sunfist]

As cliched as *sits back with popcorn* is, i can think of no more appropriate response.

[Ray Pina]

?
I think the banning was due to your challenging and what not more than the discussion over clips.

Mo Ling was speaking down to me from on high. I asked for one of two things: for him, or anyone there, to show me free fighting footage where internal principles were being used.... or for him to compare with me.

You can't discuss who is better in martial arts, just like in chess or baseball. You play and it will be apparant.

[David Jamieson]

anyway...

just send a message to fong. He did say that you can come back.
Solution to Mo_ling is just ignore him. It's an internet forum, you will get detractors and you will get supporters. To be part of a community, you have to accept both and pick your debates where something useful will come out of it.

just sayin

[Ray Pina]

I posted what I had to post and they took it down and banned me. I'm fine with it.

The whole idea of putting yourself above someone else and then not being willing to back it up......

To have a forum where one is only welcomed if they go along with the mass hallucination that somehow all these internal stylists have useable skill..... even though not one could produce one video clip of them, any of their masters or students using it in a free fighting format.... and pointing that out to them. Not to stick it to them, but to show them how rediculous it is to make claims that are unfounded. So either do something to make those claims valid or stop making them....... cowardly.

If one is going to say they are a chess experts, show us same matches you've played. If you're going to say you're better than me, let's play.... you can do that over the internet. Martial arts is different.... you must be face to face. But that aint even necessary. You don't have to be the best or even very good. Show something that shows you're not completely full of ****.

That's all.

My over riding feeling is that just because martial arts has been made widely available for material gain, doesn't mean everyone's cut out for it. There is no middle ground. You either train to face the day's standard or play make believe. A useless martial art is useless.

[sunfist]

No offense dude, but what have you shown apart from videos of you losing? I may well have missed something since im a newbie.

[Fu-Pow]

I got banned from there as well. The people that run that forum are arrogant *****s.

Oh and I've seen some "application" clips from Mo Ling on youtube. Do a search. Its some pretty unrealistic ****, if he could pull it off in a real time fight I'd be surprised.

FP

[David Jamieson]

ray

i don't know why you would think entering a forum and diminishing everyone else while proppoing yourself is going to win you any favours.

there's lots of clips of guys doing stuff. it's not a fight forum and that is not the focus.


I don't do ima, I don't feel there is mass hallucination, i think it's a bunch of guys who do hsing i, taiji and bagua who like to talk about benefits of their practice. and there are dudes who post plenty of clips. There's an entire section dedicated to nothing but that.

besides, your run in with mo_ling was pretty minor, just blow it off.

all forums are about likemindedness for the most part. That's why i don't boter with sockpupet forums if you get my inference. :p

[Ray Pina]

No offense dude, but what have you shown apart from videos of you losing? I may well have missed something since im a newbie.

This is what I posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGuQFh9MXo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x9bWgv4E94

I have never made a claim that I am even good. All I claim is that I study and aim to improve myself. I don't make claims that I am not willing to back up.... I don't dismiss another's practice unless I have compared with them.... and I have never had a negative thing to say about anyone who's been willing to compare.

I win and I lose. This happens when you fight people better and worse than yourself... when you have things go for or against you at the time.

[GeneChing]

Remember when we banned martial studant a while back? MS went over to Bullshido and started talking smack about me. It was rather funny to me because I've never claimed to be some great master - quite the opposite - and the Bullshido guys keep their newbies contained until they can give them a good sniffing out.

Anyway, if you get banned from a forum, don't take it all personal. There's tons of forums on the web. Just move on. If you bring that negative energy to another forum, it's not going to help. It's only a web forum. Only the foolish project more into it than that.

[Royal Dragon]

Ray,

Don't worry about Mo Ling. I have seen your clips, and you DO break internal principals periodically (Watch the head requirement when you enter under pressure), However, you also manage to apply your self internally plenty of other times, and it shows even in your videos. You seem to be one of the few on the right path.

Mo Ling can't even stand still with a proper internal structure, no way he'd ever keep up with you moving.

Gene,
as for your negative energy comment, here we like to fight it out with eachother. Good heated debate drives this forum, and we find a lot of truth here, through the fires of the forge. It's all good! :)

[Faruq]

I'm really impressed at a forum where someone can place a request for help up, and so many people give serious responses. I would expect that such a request would go unanswered at many forums. And Ray, you're impressive as well. You not only talk the talk, but you walk the walk. I remember the clip of your MMA fight. Very impressive. But how many tough guys like yourself (I don't think I personally would ever have the guts to enter a MMA comp), are brave enough to ask their kung fu brothers (or anyone for that matter) for help. I'm just impressed with the whole lot of you.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,

you DO break internal principals periodically (Watch the head requirement when you enter under pressure

You are absolutely right about that. It's something I noticed and am consciously working on, keeping the structure perfect in the moment of truth.... just the head tends to resist being drawn into the front lines with everybody else.

I've never said I have "it". Personally, I don't think there is ever a finished product, just stages of continuous development.

I welcome replies like yours. They lead to growth.

[The Willow Sword]

I didnt know that MartialStudent did that. I dont go over to bullshido for anything. what a nut job.
peace,TWS

[franksv]

Ray

I read most of the threads on EF that your talking about.

The only question I have for you is,why do you care what others on a ma forum have to say?

So they disagree with you about the internal thing,so what.You had to know you would get questions and comments that where not going to be positive.Or should I say,not all praise.

If someone states your stuff is not all that internal and you,yourself say you are a work in process,whats the problem?

As far as the whole Teacher politics thing,thats why I stay away from formal instruction now a days.Who needs the hassle,I could'nt care less about linage and history.Just show me the material so I can train and always put friendship first before martial arts(yes my 2 kf teachers are friends first).But this is me,where I am at right now,someday I may need a formal teacher but that ain't today.I put in almost 10 years at a commercial school that includded korean ma politics,I ve had my fill;) .

But,a big hats off to you for getting out there and testing your stuff.But,I in no way have less respect for the kf guys that have a more holistic approach to their training.Kung Fu is something we all take and make our own,we all must find a balance between the martial and holistic.Everyones kf is going to be different depending on whats important to the individual.

Either way man,sorry to see you go.The threads have been entertaining and they reminded me of a few lessons I learned about ma/life long ago.To always be humble and respect your fellow man.

Regards

Frank

[PlumDragon]

Empty Flower is just an Absolutism with a couple of Governors who ban people for no reason. Thats just the way they operate.

IMO, the best thing for you to do is forget that forum even exists, that sort of banning has happened to lots of decent member over there in the last couple years. Just move on with life...oh and occasionally visit Davids front page to see what new pose he has that girl in... ;)

[mawali]

Ray,

Just do not mention teachers, instructors or masters. Most teachers (at least those I know) do not like their name plastered all over the place so test what you learnt and let all the flower fists and embroidered leg feel nice in their world.

Ego are fragile (any surprise) so no need to go there.
suerte

[Royal Dragon]

Mawali,

That is very good advice. I myself really don't talk much about my real live teachers...only the stuff I learned from video, and personal experiances. I figure those who know their stuff, will be able to tell by the way i talk if i know anything or not. I don't need a lineage to boost my credentials, so why drag my teachers into anything?

[jethro]

What is empty flower? I typed in empty flower.com, I don't think this is what you are talking about.

nevermind, I think I found it.

[Finny]

Ray, there were only a couple of people at eF criticising your surfing, and I was one of them.

What I said was, you called yourself a "world-class surfer" in a thread here at KFO once - which you did.

I simply said you're not.

I'm not attacking you, it's just that I know world-class surfing, and that aint it. There is a world of difference between the surfing you posted on youtube, riding little 4'-6' waves, and riding 10' Margaret River slabs, or 8'-10' pipes at Teauphu.

You are a good surfer Ray, but good aint world-class. That is all.

And I think you were banned at eF because the dscussion had ended ages ago, and you wouldn't let it go. Also the whole "airing yours and others' personal affairs in public" thing didn't help.

Perhaps you didn't read my post there, but the point was - there was never any need to do what you did, and discuss all the private details of your relationship with your former master. You were wrong, and I think should apologise.

So you see - you weren't banned "because you disagreed with the mods and mo" - you were banned due to the way you conducted yourself.

[Water Dragon]

Naw, something weird's going on over there. I've been posting on the Flower since '99, and tonight was the first time I ever had a thread deleted. And for me, it was a mild thread! I think Fong might have done it, I hope not. I asked Felipe about it. I'm sure there's a reason for whatever's going on over there.

[yenhoi]

Lol at Ray boo-hooing about emptyflower on KFM. Ive been on that forum for years now also, and I cant see how a smart guy like Ray could have thought his actions would have lead anywhere else.

The EvolutionFist saga continues!

[sunfist]

I was going to hang back, but it needs to be said.

Ray, you bring all of this upon yourself. You are not some amazing new breed of martial artist, infact id say the opposite, you are too **** stubborn to evolve in the ways that count, both as a martial artist and a person. Listen to yourself trashing the practice of everybody who trains at a lower intensity than yourself, judging so many others when you freely admit to not considering yourself highly skilled. Smell the coffee bro, you aint special.

See, the problem with this whole 'fighting=legitimacy' thing that MMA has brought about is that we have a bunch of dumb ****s who step in, get beat down, and then think they are somehow qualified to speak as an expert. YOU WENT INTO A MMA FIGHT WITH NO GROUND GAME, YOU ARE A ****ING DINOSAUR.

Heres the funny thing dude: I am not making this post to be negative. I wish nothing more than to see you get it together, but this whole barney the purple dinosaur encouragement routine that most people give you isnt the answer, and it disgusts me that there are some actually padding your ego.

If you wonder why people avoid 'comparing' with you, its really quite simple. Most who have any idea about fighting understand that a violently motivated individual has the potential to do serious damage to them, regardless of wether he wins or loses. You clearly have something to prove, some sort of 'real' and 'hardcore' status to achieve in your own mind, and you plan to go around being an agressive **** until you get there.

To get a little bit doctor phil on you, there are obviously some big insecurity issues that you need to deal with. Your problem right now is not that a forum of chi hippies wont play with you anymore, its that you have a massive need to validate yourself through violence. There will always be someone calling you fake, no matter how many fights you win or titles you hold; And if you manage to attain a reputation, after you die people will use it to market their TKD school, saying how their master once beat you in an alley. Maybe if youre lucky you will get your picture on a T shirt worn by fat anime fans or something.

So i say to you: stop looking around you for an answer to your insecurity, its time to look within. You have drive and lots of it, you could really achieve something if you relaxed and got to like yourself. You might even find that many doors will open.

Just a few words from someone else who isnt good, take them for what theyre worth.

[Royal Dragon]

Water Dragon,
I have been following Empty Flower for years as well. You are right about your obvservastion. Something is going on over there.

[Wood Dragon]

The fact that an instructor felt compelled to publically refute a (rather wild) claim made about him by one of his students......does not argue well for that student.

Ray, you are the one inflicting harm on yourself. All these posts you've referenced start out with you making statements, then becoming enraged and confrontational (as well as insulting) when people disagree with you or refute your statements. You've been acting like a really unfunny version of Maddox:

Ray:"I rule!!!"
Others: "Not really"
Ray: "How dare u!!!!"


In any case, this has zero to do with KFM. Running about the 'Net airing dirty laundry is not a mature act. They banned you. Move on.

[Three Harmonies]

Good post Sunfist.
I think the only thing that is "going on" over at EF is they are trying to prevent it from turning into a KFO!
But what do I know :D
Jake :cool:

[Royal Dragon]

Water Dragon's post was not over the top though.

[yenhoi]

EF has always been anti-anti-EF. Pretty much anyone who has ever gone there and picked a fight over anything has been pretty quickly banned.

EF is nothing new and hasent been for years, what is there for ray besides being banned anyways?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Ray Pina]

There is a world of difference between the surfing you posted on youtube, riding little 4'-6' waves, and riding 10' Margaret River slabs, or 8'-10' pipes at Teauphu.

I didn't say I was a pro surfer. I said I was world class. What do I base that on? Surfing all types of waves (beach break, reef, point) on all types of boards (fish, short, mini-gun, long board) in most types of waves (2ft to 17ft). I admit, I have never taken off on a 20ft wave... nor do I have the desire too, at least now. I am from New York after all. There are pros who want nothing to do with Teauphu.

I have surfed both coasts of the US. Central and South America as well as a multitude of tropical islands that I can't pronounce, never mind spell.

My point, is that you based your judgement on footage I posted of TWO waves which were chosen specifically to mellow out fight clips.

Obviously, I could have chosen other footage. Fact of the matter is, 9 out of 10 times I travel alone when I surf. And on that 10th time, who's sitting on the boat to film when Cloud Break is double overhead?


there was never any need to do what you did, and discuss all the private details of your relationship with your former master. You were wrong, and I think should apologise.


My master told me about an encounter he had with Fake. I repeated that to one of Fake's students. The next day, my master has one of his students deny what I was told.

I should apoligize for that?

Added to this students post was a sly comment that I missed class. And before I started training 4 days a week for a fight, I did miss a lot of class. It's hard to motivate to take a train 2 hours to do drills in the air that a) you've done thousands of times and b) you can do at home with full gear/resistance with your own students.

This has always been a point of contention between us. I've been kicked out of class many times for saying something wouldn't work if someone resisted. I'm fighting. My health is on the line.

You are commenting on something you know nothing about. You don't know what the school was like 5 years ago. You don't know the changes that it's gone through the past two years but some of them were drastic: the school was moved from Chinatown to his garage. All but two of his disciples left to train with his former student.

I trained there for 6 years. I know the attitude of the school. Instead of them talking about how bad I was, how I didn't "get it," I'd rather offer them the opportunity to be type of martial artists my master was when I started training with him.... one who didn't talk or compare with words.

I have nothing to apologize for, but if I wasn't banned I'd thank my master for fixing my knees, for teaching me what he has because it works.

At the same time, if he's saying I'm missing a lot, he had a student that was WAY MORE than willing for six years. He had his shot. If he was holding something back, it's on him. We'll see what any of his remaining students do with it.

I miss him and I think of him a lot. But I feel I'm owed an apology just as much as him and we're both too stuborn. It's a shame. Maybe time will change things.

[AJM]

Ray, they act like prissy little girls with octopus tentacles for egos just daring anyone to step on them at EF so why bother?

[Ray Pina]

The reason I posted the video over there in the first place was because I was celebrating, happy and kind of overjoyed at the prospect of a) not having a master, b) being really excited about my new training, c) and realising I'm going to have to do something (open a school) because I'm running out of space to train with my guys at my place.

I was excited, and wanted to put what I've been up to out there. I posted it here too, but took it down when someone correctly pointed out that I seemed to be entering the same way all the time .... and I was thinking about figthing again soon and, as a testament to Coach Ross, I could have been fighting one of his many students who looked tough as hell a few weeks ago and wouldn't want to give them any more of an adavantage...... not that they need it. Coach Ross might be a little abrasive, but he runs a good camp. I like the way his guys carry themselves.

Anyway, like I said, I can handle CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I was attacked by a punch of people who felt insecure about themselves so they labeled what I did as brawling (it might not be internal, but there was plenty of technique in their from jamming strikes, to jamming kicks, to passing guards, etc.) . Yet not one of these self apointed experts (who go back and forth jurking themselves off about the right way to WALK IN A CIRCLE:rolleyes: or, get this level of difficutly: just stand there:rolleyes: ) could produce a single clip of "internal" being utilised by one of their masters, training brothers or themselves.

When this wa spointed out, instead of reflecting on the truth of this, they banned me.

I'm over it now. In the end, we'll all have our training. But I certainly would love to meet up with Mo_Ling and, though he didn't chime in on this, Count, and also Philippe or whatever the moderators name is. It's amazing how in IMA you can make a name for yourself by doing nothing other than typing or talking.

[David Jamieson]

you say you're over it, but here you are still moaning about it and griping on them.

honest to god ray. :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Ray,
One of these days you're gonna bring your attitude to the wrong person and end up getting seriously hurt. There's a reason etiquette is important in the Arts. I think you would be well served by learning some.

[Wood Dragon]

Water Dragon.
Wood Dragon.
Royal Dragon.

A couple more and we'll have a Full House...

[Toby]

I didn't say I was a pro surfer. I said I was world class. What do I base that on? Surfing all types of waves (beach break, reef, point) on all types of boards (fish, short, mini-gun, long board) in most types of waves (2ft to 17ft). I admit, I have never taken off on a 20ft wave... nor do I have the desire too, at least now. I am from New York after all. There are pros who want nothing to do with Teauphu.

I have surfed both coasts of the US. Central and South America as well as a multitude of tropical islands that I can't pronounce, never mind spell.

My point, is that you based your judgement on footage I posted of TWO waves which were chosen specifically to mellow out fight clips.Dude, I've gotta back up Finny. You're a kook :D. I'm basing that on the longer vid you posted in this thread. There are 10 yr old kids at my local beach that surf better than that. Unless by world class you mean "I've surfed waves all around the world". My definition of world class would be "could hold his own as a wildcard in a major pro-am event, gets all equipment for free" as opposed to "enthusiastic amateur/hobbyist with no sponsors". But then again, I come from a region that maybe doesn't have as strong a surfing background as New York so what do I know ...

[Royal Dragon]

Ray,
One of these days you're gonna bring your attitude to the wrong person and end up getting seriously hurt. There's a reason etiquette is important in the Arts. I think you would be well served by learning some.

Reply]
Did I miss something here? What did he do that was so bad?

[unkokusai]

I was banned at empty flower,



Forget that mess. They are a bunch of little girls who don't want anyone in their play-group who won't parrot the exact same words over and over again. Kind of like 'Heathers' but not as tough.

[Ray Pina]

There are 10 yr old kids at my local beach that surf better than that. Unless by world class you mean "I've surfed waves all around the world".

There are 10 year olds at my break who surf much better than me to. I'm a 32 year old surfer from NY who surfs for fun. But I have surfed some of the best waves this planet has to offer. It's not a competitive thing with me. It's the exact opposite. It's a place to go and turn off my brain.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,
One of these days you're gonna bring your attitude to the wrong person and end up getting seriously hurt. There's a reason etiquette is important in the Arts. I think you would be well served by learning some.

Actually, few take martial arts and its ettiquette more seriously than me.

I posted footage. Some have offered valid critic, and I welcome it and learn from it. They had a good eye, and saw some things that I also saw and will improve.

Many more felt insecure and felt the need to attack me... saying it was only brawling. There was a lot of technique utilized in that video. Of course, it's raw and needs to be refines, but there is a method behind jamming those kicks and strikes.

These internal experts place themselves on high, because they have perfect technique against the air and cooperative students. I simply asked for reality-based examples. With all these taij, Ba Gua and Hsing-I players, with all their masters and classmates and traveling demonstrations and videos.... you'd think someone would have fought someone somewhere and could come up with one clip.

In essence, you'd think someone could validy, bring truth, to their claims. I don't think that's unreasonable to ask for in the face of the ease, speed and harshness on which they so easily criticise others.

When it comes to martial arts, I actually think my head and heart are in the right place. If I come off poorly online, it's because I assume a forum of martial artists would be dictated with honor.... none of these "experts" would say boo if they were mat side for any of those fights.... because they'd be asked to take center stage. But over the internet .... they're experts.

My training is such that I don't have to fear speaking my mind.

[Knifefighter]

Welcome to the Dark Side, Ray.

[David Jamieson]

being proud of ones malevolence and faulty suppositions is folly.

[Ray Pina]

being proud of ones malevolence and faulty suppositions is folly.

That's very eloquent, but there is nothing wicked about calling other people on their bull****.

These were old men who have never faced the level of Thai Boxing today, folks who never faced BJJ or MMA. It's not 1970 karate tournaments or 1980 ninja movies anymore. So your teacher beat some skinny-ass Wing Chun guys in Taiwan in 1930.... if they want to say, "this isn't internal," I have the right to say, "Why would I want what you have when what you have doesn't work."

I posted mine. Needs lots of improvement, it's a work in progress, but it works for me. I'm still waiting for 1 single clip of ANY of these internal experts utilising their stuff in a free fight.

[hjt]

what happen? as i recall you used to praise and live by your internal style and now you say it doesnt work.

[Royal Dragon]

He's not saying it does not work, he's syng thier side cannot show it working.

He is defently useing internal fighting in his clips. He also breaks form it and strugles on externally as well, but that is because he is young, and still needing more experiance under severe pressure.

But where he does maintian internal principals under pressure, he is showing that they work very well.

Ray, I wish you were in Chicago, you are just the type of training partner I need.....