What I'm liking about BJJ

[Ray Pina]

Set in a strong position.... mini battle to gain position.... set in that position... another mini battle to gain position .... repeat until someone is beat.

I like it. It has a feel of trench warfair... steady advancement.... sometimes controlled, strategic retreats.

Standup is the same, but the pace is too fast to enjoy it.

[bodhitree]

With all due respect Ray this doesn't belong on the kung fu forum, this is what other related arts is for.



That being said, I pretty much had the same feelings when I started.

[Ray Pina]

Guess you're right. Truth of the matter I wasn't even thinking like that. I no longer consider myself a "kung Fu guy" or "internal guy".... they were just certain stops on my road of martial arts. Though taiji, Hsing-I and Ba Gua are where my hands come from.

[qiphlow]

Set in a strong position.... mini battle to gain position.... set in that position... another mini battle to gain position .... repeat until someone is beat.

I like it. It has a feel of trench warfair... steady advancement.... sometimes controlled, strategic retreats.

Standup is the same, but the pace is too fast to enjoy it.

push hands is sort of like that, too...

[Ray Pina]

Definitely. I think all martial arts is like that. But I find push hands to be fast paced too. Working from the ground has its own cool pace.

[MasterKiller]

No-gi is a lot faster because you have less to grab on to and hold.

I like it a lot better.

[SevenStar]

With all due respect Ray this doesn't belong on the kung fu forum, this is what other related arts is for.



That being said, I pretty much had the same feelings when I started.

just bein nitpicky (hell, I probably lost street cred for saying that word), but this thread is fine in the kung fu forum. The kung fu forum acts as a general forum - a catch all if you will. That's why a lot of the OT stuff here doesn't get deleted. this forum has a bigger audience than the ORA, so he would get more insights and responses here.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Set in a strong position.... mini battle to gain position.... set in that position... another mini battle to gain position .... repeat until someone is beat.

I like it. It has a feel of trench warfair... steady advancement.... sometimes controlled, strategic retreats.

Standup is the same, but the pace is too fast to enjoy it.

unless you are rolling with a guy who just likes to spaz ... then you just gotta weather the storm and do what you want with him once he tires out. unless he's gotta real good cardio ... then it just kinda sucks for a noob like me.

[Nick Forrer]

Heres a tip against newbs:

You have to bait them i.e. give them something so that they think they've got you but deprive them of the important detail they need to finish it....not knowing any better they will crank it for all its worth...and they'll forget about their own defence and you can then take advantage

Example is the guillotine: dive at their legs and give them the guillotine but make sure your chin is tucked and do not let them close their legs around you...you will pass their guard whilst they are still holding it on...now pass to mount (they will still be holding on)...now roll back into guard (they will still be holding on - dont worry about the fact you are giving up the mount, it doesnt always matter)...now just straighten your back and look up and reach back and grab their arm for an easy kimura/shoulder crank.

Another example is the footlock (actually this move works on experienced people too...I caught a very seasoned purple belt with it tonight) let them have the straight footlock but as they sit back point your toes up (this will protect your foot for long enough)..they will have forgotten about their own foot as they will be preoccupied with cranking yours....now grab their foot and apply a footlock of your own. I guarantee you will catch people with this if you do it right.

[Nick Forrer]

one other tip for newbs

If you have some spare cash fork out for SBG's DVD fundamental JKD vol 2...this covers a complete MMA game, shows simple high percentage moves and will give you a really good conceptual breakdown of the whole game (rather than just a bunch of unrelated techniques with thousands of variations)...it has really helped me in the way I think about the ground game and all the moves shown work both for gi and no gi.

[warriormonk]

in the 2 plus years i have been doing bjj i have come to think of it as being a chess match more than anything i have ever done before. the whole act and react of it reminds me of chess. just thank god that my jiujitsu is better than my chess!!:)

[tjmitch]

The thing I love about bjj is that it teaches what to do when you are losing a fight. Badly. If a guy has your back in a 'real' fight nothing I learned in my 10-12 years of 'cma' showed me exactly what to do....then made me do it over and over again every week until I stopped letting guys take my back. Nothing I learned in my cma school showed me exactly what to do if I found myself flat on my back with a guy sitting on my chest throwing punches.

[yenhoi]

The kung fu forum acts as a general forum - a catch all if you will. That's why a lot of the OT stuff here doesn't get deleted. this forum has a bigger audience than the ORA, so he would get more insights and responses here.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

....thats just the way it is....

My bjj goal is to tap out Merryprankster one day with a rnc.

;)

[yenhoi]

Erik Paulson has many decent dvds and videos. I also like pretty much any Machado.

:confused:

[MasterKiller]

I like the Mario Sperry dvds.

[Merryprankster]

My bjj goal is to tap out Merryprankster one day with a rnc.

Reno's not that far away. Maybe you'll get your chance one of these days.

[David Jamieson]

The thing I love about bjj is that it teaches what to do when you are losing a fight. Badly. If a guy has your back in a 'real' fight nothing I learned in my 10-12 years of 'cma' showed me exactly what to do....then made me do it over and over again every week until I stopped letting guys take my back. Nothing I learned in my cma school showed me exactly what to do if I found myself flat on my back with a guy sitting on my chest throwing punches.

really? what style was that? you don't cover up? feed the stitch side of the forearm? attempt to control the wrists? play the angle of attack to cut it off and reverse? make your own attack?

10-12 years of cma and you never learned to defend yourself from most positions? there is something wrong in what you were taught. that isn't correct at all. Though cma may not deal with a lot of tactical groundwork, it does deal with protecting yourself in a logical fashion. If not, then there is a problem and that needs to be reviewed. Just because it's not in a form doesn't mean it isn't part of cma. plenty of cma work is formless. Things like chin-na, basic gate closing and opening and so on do not come with forms although their techs may be found in various forms.

just sayin...

[Merryprankster]

David,

I think his point is that regardless of what he may or may not have learned in CMA, if you don't practice that stuff on the ground, you are going to make a lot of mistakes. BJJ provides a forum and a highly develop set of tactics and techniques to repeatedly train that.

Similarly, if he had repeatedly trained groundfighting in his CMA, perhaps he wouldn't have made that post. But we all know that most CMAists don't practice much on the ground - not nearly in the way wrestlers, BJJers, Judoka, etc practice on the ground.

BJJ has standing punching and kicking....but it's not like anybody ever practices that - and by extension, most straight BJJers can't punch or kick worth a crap.

[Water Dragon]

*makes mental not*

*Merryprankster can't punch or kick worth crap*

[Merryprankster]

I boxed for about a year WD, and have done a little tiny bit of muay thai...

So it's safer to say "I can't punch or kick worth a crap."

Oh, wait... :D

[rogue]

...and fall out of boxing rings.:D

[Merryprankster]

I can fall out of a boxing ring like a CHAMP!

[yenhoi]

Reno's not that far away. Maybe you'll get your chance one of these days.

Ive got an Americana waiting too!

:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Ok, but if you get it on my left shoulder, I'll tap early. That's the one I had surgery on.

[David Jamieson]

i agree, to play the ground effectively you have to train there and quite frankly, as noted, cma doesn't deal with that range very much. However, that doesn't mean that basic tactics can't be worked.

All ranges should be worked and in cma, it is natural that stand up and clinch are gonna be the priority. Still, grabs, holds, releases and tactics to deal with tight situations such as the ground presents shouldn't be overlooked by any system. Not necessarily the primary focus, but even a small reckoning is better than none.

Myself and my training partner(s) give due regard to all ranges. It's changed a few attitudes for sure.

[yenhoi]

I wont use americanas if you dont use triangle chokes?

:mad:

[Merryprankster]

Nah...just remember that you have to get me there first :)

[MasterKiller]

I've got a Poison Tree Frog choke waiting for both of you. Suckas.

[David Jamieson]

I liek a good B movie strangle myself.

you know, hands around the throat and neck, arms straight out, and make a lot of gurgling noises occasionally try to bite the skull while uttering "braaaaainnnns"

[Knifefighter]

feed the stitch side of the forearm? attempt to control the wrists? play the angle of attack to cut it off and reverse? make your own attack?
Another example of KF guys thinking that KF teaches them what to do on the ground. At the very least, those things will be worthless and at the worst they will set you up to lose if you are in certain positions on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

The thing I love about bjj is that it teaches what to do when you are losing a fight. Badly. If a guy has your back in a 'real' fight nothing I learned in my 10-12 years of 'cma' showed me exactly what to do....then made me do it over and over again every week until I stopped letting guys take my back. Nothing I learned in my cma school showed me exactly what to do if I found myself flat on my back with a guy sitting on my chest throwing punches.
Great observation. Losing a fight often means losing it on the ground. A person who gets dominated standing, will often end up on the ground with the other person striking or kicking from a standing position. Knowing what to do when down can save you and even reverse the situation.

[MasterKiller]

Another example of KF guys thinking that KF teaches them what to do on the ground. At the very least, those things will be worthless and at the worst they will set you up to lose if you are in certain positions on the ground.

I have to agree with this. I learned to fight pretty well standing up with my kung fu, but once I got into MMA I figured out pretty quickly that wrestling/ground fighting are different beasts altogether.

I think sensitivity training (like push hands) does crossover somewhat, but it won't get you out of a scarf hold...

[David Jamieson]

yeah sure, i throw out a couple of examples and it is assumed that that's all there is. ridiculous. I've wrestled since high school, Im not the greatest, but i can play ground game at an ok level.

so, in reference to a ground and pound being done on you, what's your solution knife? mk? take it? give him your side? or would you cover and shrimp, seek a reversal?

come on, help me out here. I'm assuming you must be friggin geniuses if your turfing a few very simple tactics. :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

I agree also. Even though we did grapple at my old cma school, my buddy and I schooled them all after we bought a copy of "the fighter's notebook" and began training the techniques we saw in it. We rooled regularly and worked what was in the book. We got to a point where we could submit them all with ease.

After I left the school and started bjj, I really had no defense once they back mounted me either - nothing I had learned in longfist really prepared me for that. Nothing I learned in longfist prepared me for the triangle choke, either.

It's easy to say "cover and shrimp", "seek a reversal", but when you don't know any, you can't do that, can you? you can struggle, but you just end up tiring yourself out and getting tapped. that's no different than taking a newbie at striking and saying "just hit him in the throat" - it's easier said than done.

[David Jamieson]

pfft. gimme a break 7. how is your statement any different? who says you know? what makes you know more than anyone else.

everything is easy to say, it's a little much to give a detailed explanation in a textual format that someone can take and start practicing tomorrow.

there is an assumption that 1) people know what Im talking about when I say shrimp etc and 2) there is an assumption that seeking a reversal is to be interpreted as a number of techniques to get out of a ground and pound.

If that assumption can't be made with the likes of knife who comes across as king of the cage with his attitudes or mk the bjj noob who now knows more than kungfu guys do then what are we atlking about here? how about a heel hook and a hip thrust with a cross body push?

what kind of detail are we talking here? does it bother people that kf people can get the mechanic of it? wtf? gimme a break. a kf guy can get down with it in a short time and with a bit of tightening up will have good stand up to begin with. It comes down to adding ranges and working them period.

the assumption on the part of knife seems to be that all kungfu is just performance wushu and frankly, this is what makes him read like a total asshat in these regards.

There isn't a lot to adapting to the simplicity of sport fighting. It is a short learning curve and guys can get good really fast and all they need is the will to fight and learn a few extra ways of doing things.

in judo, a guy would need to improve his standup, in GR, same thing, in BJJ again, same thing. MMA guys look outside of just BJJ, or just MT or just boxing and they even look beyond that for what is useful and what they can use.

If they just write off kungfu, then frankly, they are stupid. KF has piles of legit F U up stuff in it. Because it doesn't focus on sport or it doesn't focus on speciifc and small areas doesn't mean squat.

Now , Im not down with bagging on mma because I see value in it mainly because it does cross train and it deals with all ranges at the same time. You don't find this in MT, you don't find it in wrestling and you don't find it in boxing. that's why its mixed. But do these guys bag on wrestling as an individual sport? no? why not? It's not effective in punching and has zero punching? should we assume that because it lacks this it is not realistic? how about boxing? what does a boxer do when he gets kicked about the quads a few times? he's got nothing in his training to address that. what does a MT guy do in his training that gives him a tactic against a rear naked? Nothing. So can we assume these arts are shyte because they in and of themselves don't deal with all ranges?

nuff said.

[SevenStar]

pfft. gimme a break 7. how is your statement any different? who says you know? what makes you know more than anyone else.

I think you missed my point. I'm not saying I knew more than anyone else. I'm saying when I started bjj, I was the one who didn't know those things. Kung fu did not teach them to me. My statement is not supposed to be different - it's a agreeance with mk and kf.


there is an assumption that 1) people know what Im talking about when I say shrimp etc and 2) there is an assumption that seeking a reversal is to be interpreted as a number of techniques to get out of a ground and pound.

that's really not an assumption you can safely make.


If that assumption can't be made with the likes of knife who comes across as king of the cage with his attitudes or mk the bjj noob who now knows more than kungfu guys do then what are we atlking about here? how about a heel hook and a hip thrust with a cross body push?

What we (or at least I) am saying is that prior to grappling training we (I) DID NOT know those things.


what kind of detail are we talking here? does it bother people that kf people can get the mechanic of it? wtf? gimme a break. a kf guy can get down with it in a short time and with a bit of tightening up will have good stand up to begin with. It comes down to adding ranges and working them period.

and therein lies the problem, doesn't it? Not all schools do that. Mine did not, nor did MK's. at least not with the frequency and knowledge base of a grappling school. that's no different than wanting to learn stiking in a bjj class...


If they just write off kungfu, then frankly, they are stupid. KF has piles of legit F U up stuff in it. Because it doesn't focus on sport or it doesn't focus on speciifc and small areas doesn't mean squat.

I haven't seen any of us here say we have written off kung fu as useless, on this thread or any other.


Now , Im not down with bagging on mma because I see value in it mainly because it does cross train and it deals with all ranges at the same time. You don't find this in MT, you don't find it in wrestling and you don't find it in boxing. that's why its mixed. But do these guys bag on wrestling as an individual sport? no? why not? It's not effective in punching and has zero punching? should we assume that because it lacks this it is not realistic? how about boxing? what does a boxer do when he gets kicked about the quads a few times? he's got nothing in his training to address that. what does a MT guy do in his training that gives him a tactic against a rear naked? Nothing. So can we assume these arts are shyte because they in and of themselves don't deal with all ranges?


the KF argument is about more than just not dealing with all ranges. It's also about training methods that allow them to fight effectively in various venues.

[MasterKiller]

Stop the presses everyone! Kung Lek got all butt hurt. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

so, in reference to a ground and pound being done on you, what's your solution knife? mk? take it? give him your side? or would you cover and shrimp, seek a reversal?
Um... simple solution... guard 'em up.


come on, help me out here. I'm assuming you must be friggin geniuses if your turfing a few very simple tactics.
Some of those "simple tactics" will get you smoked if you are mounted.

[Fuzzly]

If I could afford it, and if there were a school around here, I would definately take up BJJ or JJ. I am training HFY, and while it does have groundfighting, it's not the focus for my training at the moment. Actually, my training is pretty frustrating at this point (As it seems to have been for all my brothers who've been/are in this training).

It definately would be a fun and helpful experience, but alas, I have neither the time nor the money to pursue this further.

[Shaolinlueb]

shoot, i might as well plug for my coworkers.

www.islandmartialarts.com for all your bjj and mma needs.
also check out ww.mma.tv it the the worlds biggest mma discussion.

[MasterKiller]

My favorite escape from the mount is to shrimp on my side, create a frame with my arms against their waist, then bump their lower back with my side-up knee. This usually forces them forward and creates a gap that allows you to pull your side-down leg up and into a half-guard.

From half-guard, I like to use the "old-school" to get back into a dominant position.

[Ray Pina]

I trained for the ground, I've fought and finished fights from the ground but it was just raw imposing of my will. I am loving Gracie Jiu-jitsu. It is a beatiful style. I don't agree with a lot of their "self defense (stand up)" stuff, but that has comrpised maybe 5% of the material so far. Everything on the ground has been beautiful. I only had one submission lock before. Now I have a few chokes and locks from the major positions.

There is definitely a science here, with filling space with your knee to inch up a bit and twist to load the hip before arm bars, etc. Lots of very important details that make a difference that I was too ignorant to recognize before. Joining this school at this time was the best thing I've ever done for myself martially.

Got my first stripe Fri. night. Wasn't submitted once last night but forced a tap via triangle, arm bar, kamura and several chokes last night.

[yenhoi]

:eek:

mk the bjj noob

...knife... a total asshat...

KF has piles of legit F U up stuff in it

:eek:

[yenhoi]

What the hell is the stripe all about?

:confused:

[SevenStar]

If I could afford it, and if there were a school around here, I would definately take up BJJ or JJ. I am training HFY, and while it does have groundfighting, it's not the focus for my training at the moment. Actually, my training is pretty frustrating at this point (As it seems to have been for all my brothers who've been/are in this training).

It definately would be a fun and helpful experience, but alas, I have neither the time nor the money to pursue this further.

judo classes are usually cheap to take, and there may be one of those around.

I differentiate between groundfighting and ground grappling - what is your groundfighting composed of? is it mainly just striking from the ground in order to get yourself back to your feet?

[David Jamieson]

I suggest you all wander over to mma.tv where you can circle jerk together and share in the bukkake. :rolleyes:

what a friggin dumb argument.

wrestling = useless for striking
MT= useless for wrestling
boxing= useless for graplling +kick skills

ergo, they are in and of themselves lacking and yet everyone is sniffing armpits about it and doing it in a kungfu forum which is formatted for kf players from traditional schools, to wushu performance types etc etc.

I'm surprised some of you just can't resist coming and posting your troll stuff in this forum when there is one made available for you.

your arguments for mma are pretty ridiculous in this environment when it comes down to it.

kind of tiring to, so anyway, please feel free to continue to jag off all over the dead horse you brought in with you, I don't have time for this argument anymore other than to say, it is a stupid one and irrelevant here.

[Knifefighter]

I suggest you all wander over to mma.tv where you can circle jerk together and share in the bukkake. :rolleyes:

what a friggin dumb argument.

wrestling = useless for striking
MT= useless for wrestling
boxing= useless for graplling +kick skills

ergo, they are in and of themselves lacking and yet everyone is sniffing armpits about it and doing it in a kungfu forum which is formatted for kf players from traditional schools, to wushu performance types etc etc.

I'm surprised some of you just can't resist coming and posting your troll stuff in this forum when there is one made available for you.

your arguments for mma are pretty ridiculous in this environment when it comes down to it.

kind of tiring to, so anyway, please feel free to continue to jag off all over the dead horse you brought in with you, I don't have time for this argument anymore other than to say, it is a stupid one and irrelevant here.


Translation = "My lack of ground knowledge has just been exposed and I'm pi$$ed."
Lots of pwnage going on today.

[Golden Arms]

Nah, I dont think its that, KF. This is beyond dead horse stuff, and what he brought up are valid points. Thai Kickboxing, Boxing and Wrestling are all very narrow scoped disciplines when faced with their weaknesses, they are just the comfortable choices for the MMA community because they know they work well, so they are "high percentage". I see no reason why a person couldnt learn Hung Gar, instead of Muay Thai, or Japanese Jujutsu instead of BJJ, etc and I am fairly confident in the future that just that sort of thing will happen. Innovators are rare on the whole however, so most will stick with what takes less work to do, since they dont have to experiment to see how to use it.

[SevenStar]

Nah, I dont think its that, KF. This is beyond dead horse stuff, and what he brought up are valid points. Thai Kickboxing, Boxing and Wrestling are all very narrow scoped disciplines when faced with their weaknesses, they are just the comfortable choices for the MMA community because they know they work well, so they are "high percentage". I see no reason why a person couldnt learn Hung Gar, instead of Muay Thai, or Japanese Jujutsu instead of BJJ, etc and I am fairly confident in the future that just that sort of thing will happen. Innovators are rare on the whole however, so most will stick with what takes less work to do, since they dont have to experiment to see how to use it.

you could learn those things. Personally, I would love to see someone doing shuai chiao, san shou and bjj enter mma. As a lot of these arts are currently trained though, you just won't see it happen. There are still a lot of JJJ (since you mentioned that style) that don't spar. same with kung fu. if you are going to compete in the venue, you must train for it. BUT, I think one of the first things people will realize is that they will be using their basics even they fight, just like you see the current mma fighters doing. Look at san shou. To the untrained eye, it's just kickboxing and wrestling. Ever wonder why it looks the same?

[Golden Arms]

The comment about the lack of sparring is true. However, shame on anyone serious about learning martial arts for fighting, if they even chose to go to a school that didnt have hard, realistic sparring in the first place. I knew to look for that 14 years ago, and not because of the internet, its just common sense. Would you workout at a boxing gym where you never got in the ring with anyone?

[mantis108]

The comment about the lack of sparring is true. However, shame on anyone serious about learning martial arts for fighting, if they even chose to go to a school that didnt have hard, realistic sparring in the first place. I knew to look for that 14 years ago, and not because of the internet, its just common sense. Would you workout at a boxing gym where you never got in the ring with anyone?

Well, the problem is at least 3 folded.

1) TCMA schools generally has a network of hierarchy in the TCMA community and it also froster an environment of hierarchy within the system/school. This more or less means that a set curriculum equals system/school identity. It's almost like all Bishops must answer to the Pope. You have to be Catheralic to be a Catheralic priest. So it is quite hard to do or change things as one pleases. Now, you do have the occassional renegades who go off on his/her own (ie Bruce Lee is one of them). That often means another all out political battle before anything is settled. Most of the time TCMA schools rather not rock the boat and you will get an a la carte type of training.

2) In the west where the middle class holds the power of the market. They are the paying customers that make or break a school. It really doesn't matter what you are teaching. You can teach Modern Wushu and claim mastery of CMA but in reality you can't even fight your way out of a wet paper bag! Guess what, you will still have a profitable school. This is why McDojo and Mckwoon is everywhere. It's because little Johnny's soccer mom is far too busy babysitting him herself so she decide to pay at a low cost for you to entertain Johnny. Oh make sure you don't do anything stupid that cause even one single injury or you will definitely lost a paying customer and gain a lawsuit. Some smart TCMA schools have no choice but to adapt to "market" demands.

3) Pop culture and media (including the internet) portrayal create a twisted understanding and fantasy of TCMA. People (mostly middle class) simply want movie-fu. Then when they find out that you actually have to train and possibly have to fight (high risk of injuries involved). They just quit. They don't need TCMA to remind them of the harsh reality. They want TCMA to be a sancturary to shield them from the ever losing battle of mundane existance. This is what the western Shaolin temple revival fab is about.

Now, when you have a "smart Sifu" out there taking it easy, trying to make a easy buck. Well, you've got a making of a Mckwoon.

TCMA is more prone to this problem because of the use of form training as an integral part of its methodology. It can be rectified if a school decides to become drill base rather than staying form base but it would mean really hard work and higher risk of losing the business altogether.

Traditional Kung Fu and traditional Ju Jitsu are very mush alike in approach when it comes to drilling techniques and even in methodology. But Ju Jitsu kept evolving into Aikido, Judo, BJJ, etc. Innovative paradigm got developed overtime. TKF in general and for the most part kept pacing back and forth with the same frame of mind. Sure we have the so-called "internal" arts revolution but it's more or less a dead end street mainly due to politics plus it doesn't shake off the old mindset. So....

In reality, TCMA has no one to blame but itself and it's exponents.

Regards

Mantis108

[Golden Arms]

That makes me sad to hear, its likely true... :( However, again, just read up on successful fighters and their regimens, apply something similar to your material, and viola, you start down the road of liberating your art from that garbage. CMA are mostly passing to non chinese within the next generation in the states, and we have the option of not keeping the politics that go with them, or at least not all of them to be realistic.

Formula:
Take some movements from your forms, not a combo but just like one or two moves and begin to drill them from lead hand, back hand, to the side, stepping back, stepping in, stepping to the side with a partner, as well as on a heavy bag.

Evolve this into working said techiques against vectors of force, or against various types of attacks.

Pick another movement and do the same.

Add a bunch of drills to get people used to contact, pain and breathing while moving.


Its pretty simple to me, but I guess maybe people dont want it that bad?

[David Jamieson]

Translation = "My lack of ground knowledge has just been exposed and I'm pi$$ed."
Lots of pwnage going on today.

so, you're a pro fighter? semi pro? amateur?

My groundwork is fine for where Im at.
That's not the issue at hand. is it?

so do you think wrestling is a good all round fighting set? I don't

what about MT? is that got every range covered? I don't think so.

how about boxing? What do they do when they get choked out? Kicked in the shins and knees?

the only thing getting pwned is you for not being validated in you continuing vitriol, bile and generally moot arguments.

[PangQuan]

wow, there is some pwnage goin round today isnt there.

:p

[SevenStar]

The comment about the lack of sparring is true. However, shame on anyone serious about learning martial arts for fighting, if they even chose to go to a school that didnt have hard, realistic sparring in the first place. I knew to look for that 14 years ago, and not because of the internet, its just common sense. Would you workout at a boxing gym where you never got in the ring with anyone?


funny you should mention that - one just opened up here. Their motto is "learn to box without getting hit". They teach you all of the techniques, footowrk, etc. but you never spar. They do have qualified guys that will spar if you desire to, but sparring is not part of the training.

[FatherDog]

so, you're a pro fighter? semi pro? amateur?

Actually, KF has fought professionally, not that that makes any particular difference.



My groundwork is fine for where Im at.
That's not the issue at hand. is it?

Well, you entered this thread with this post - http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=712684&postcount=17

In which you stated that if he (a cma practitioner) wasn't taught to defend himself on the ground, there's something wrong with what he was taught. Since you're a CMA practitioner, presumably you were taught how to defend yourself on the ground, so if you make statements about groundwork that indicate a fundamental lack of knowledge and presence of misconceptions, that largely invalidates your argument.



so do you think wrestling is a good all round fighting set? I don't

what about MT? is that got every range covered? I don't think so.

how about boxing? What do they do when they get choked out? Kicked in the shins and knees?


KF never claimed any of the above. No one claimed any of the above. We all know that wrestling doesn't possess submissions and is limited in bottom escapes, MT has no groundwork, boxing has no kicks and minimal clinching, and BJJ has no striking and minimal takedowns. That is why we crosstrain.

You, on the other hand, appear to be claiming that CMA "teaches you to defend yourself on the ground", which is something that I've never seen any good evidence of. And everything you've said, in this thread and elsewhere, about groundfighting is the sort of statement that would come from someone who knows nothing about fighting on the ground.

So, congratulations on arguing about things we haven't said and continuing to talk about things you don't know about, I guess. Way to go with the "pwnage."

[SevenStar]

How did we get on the topic of being well rounded? that was never the point, really. we were saying that kung fu did not adequately prepare us for what we experienced when we started grappling. THAT is the issue.

No, boxing and MT don't prepare you for the ground either, but you don't hear them telling you that it does, which you DO hear from a lot of CMA guys.

[Knifefighter]

I see no reason why a person couldnt learn Hung Gar, instead of Muay Thai, or Japanese Jujutsu instead of BJJ, etc and I am fairly confident in the future that just that sort of thing will happen. Innovators are rare on the whole however, so most will stick with what takes less work to do, since they dont have to experiment to see how to use it.
LOL @ less work... do you know how much work MMA fighters do to prepare for their fights?

The real reason fighters don't use the other styles is because they would simply end up with the same functional techniques they are already using from wrestling, MT, judo, Sambo, BJJ and boxing... no reason to waste time re-inventing the wheel.

[Knifefighter]

Formula:
Take some movements from your forms, not a combo but just like one or two moves and begin to drill them from lead hand, back hand, to the side, stepping back, stepping in, stepping to the side with a partner, as well as on a heavy bag.

Evolve this into working said techiques against vectors of force, or against various types of attacks.

Pick another movement and do the same.

Add a bunch of drills to get people used to contact, pain and breathing while moving.

Hate to break it to you but it's already being done... it's call MMA.

[Knifefighter]

so, you're a pro fighter? semi pro? amateur?
Right now, pretty much amateur. Have done a little pro stuff in the past... not sure how that is relevent though.



My groundwork is fine for where Im at.
That's not the issue at hand. is it?
It is when you are giving ground advice.



so do you think wrestling is a good all round fighting set?
what about MT? is that got every range covered?
how about boxing? What do they do when they get choked out? Kicked in the shins and knees?
None of these are functional all around systems, but each is top notch in it's own specialty. That's what makes MMA so powerful... it takes top-notch specialty disciplines and combines them into a single "killer app" that is more than the sum of it's parts.

And the reason each of these disciplines is so well suited to MMA fighting is that each has been tested and evolved in trial-by-fire competitive venues that each system emphasizes.

[yenhoi]

I honestly think Kung Lek is _actually_ mad about not being able to move this BJJ thread to the ORA forum..... this forum was designed to sell stuff, mainly fake wushu weapons, it has very little to do with "Kung Fu."

I wonder why the Kung Lek forum is so drab?

This is a hissy fit that deserves to be re-posted, again:

I suggest you all wander over to mma.tv where you can circle jerk together and share in the bukkake.

what a friggin dumb argument.

wrestling = useless for striking
MT= useless for wrestling
boxing= useless for graplling +kick skills

ergo, they are in and of themselves lacking and yet everyone is sniffing armpits about it and doing it in a kungfu forum which is formatted for kf players from traditional schools, to wushu performance types etc etc.

I'm surprised some of you just can't resist coming and posting your troll stuff in this forum when there is one made available for you.

your arguments for mma are pretty ridiculous in this environment when it comes down to it.

kind of tiring to, so anyway, please feel free to continue to jag off all over the dead horse you brought in with you, I don't have time for this argument anymore other than to say, it is a stupid one and irrelevant here.

Im pretty sure the dead horse on this thread came in with KL. Its the whole ...CMA has it all and I have learned it to such an extent that I am perfectly happy with my groundfighting ignorance, and thats what counts, being happy with lacklusterness and making sure others know it!

MT is not useless for wrestling, BTW.

;)

[sunfist]

Oh wow, CMA versus MMA, I so guessed this had deteriorated into something like that by now.

Both CMA and MMA people like to keep things in house, it really grates on them to admit anything outside their own 'faction' is worth having. Some oppinions to fuel the fire:

1. The best martial artists crosstrain. The only reason i can think of for not crosstraining are if time restrictions prevent it. Crosstrain within your style, and in other styles. Specialisation and crosstraining are not mutually exclusive, its a yin yang thing.

2. Do not be restricted in your training by bull****. If you want groundfighting, go and get it, you know where it is. If you want to do something else instead, dont listen to the cries of the BJJ zombies, plenty of people have been and will be successful in the 'street' without it, if you dont deem it nessicary then have the balls to be different.

3. Having said that, your crosstraining should be dictated by what intimidates you. If grappling makes you feel uneasy, do it. If you get squeamish at sparring, box. Always seek what is new and different, always seek to grow.

[David Jamieson]

che guevera on a cracker.

knife? what's pro? 50 bucks for beating on bubba in the local nhb hub bub on friday night?

fd- my argument is towards the end that knifes arguments about mma being the one and only is just churlish masturbation and he's a troll. I could really care less if someone paid him 50 bucks once to fight a few rounds with some other nobody that never went anywhere as he retires into amateur status with 40 million other "amateurs" :rolleyes:

Knife makes a comment about my advice on the ground. what advice? I made a couple of pretty loose references to being able to defend oneself, I wasn't dispensing with the advice. I think that's where knife and the others wanted to wade into teh minutia and start going on about how this or that will make you tap and so on.

but mainly, im here to talk kungfu not to listen to the likes of knife or mma groupies go on and on about how kungfu sucks.

quite trying to change the subject. If you wanna talk mma and how great it is and get all warm and fuzzy about the finer points of it, you're in the wrong place.

pro? laugh, I guess I'm a pro too then because I won 200 bucks for a fight back in the late eighties? gimme a f-ing break.

anyway, mma.tv is thataway guys. you'll get more milage about of kungfu bashing there than here.

[yenhoi]

you're in the wrong place.

Lol, because the canadians are here to run us out.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[FatherDog]

che guevera on a cracker.

knife? what's pro? 50 bucks for beating on bubba in the local nhb hub bub on friday night?

fd- my argument is towards the end that knifes arguments about mma being the one and only is just churlish masturbation and he's a troll. I could really care less if someone paid him 50 bucks once to fight a few rounds with some other nobody that never went anywhere as he retires into amateur status with 40 million other "amateurs" :rolleyes:

If you didn't care whether or not he was pro fighter, why did you ask if he was a pro-fighter?

Seems to me you were expecting and answer in the negative, and now that you've got the opposite you're making a big deal about how you don't care. If you really don't care, why did you ask?



Knife makes a comment about my advice on the ground. what advice? I made a couple of pretty loose references to being able to defend oneself, I wasn't dispensing with the advice. I think that's where knife and the others wanted to wade into teh minutia and start going on about how this or that will make you tap and so on.

You said that your CMA teaches how to protect yourself on the ground, and then you made several statements about doing things that are, typically, a bad idea when you're on the ground.



but mainly, im here to talk kungfu not to listen to the likes of knife or mma groupies go on and on about how kungfu sucks.

I don't think anyone has said that kung fu sucks in this thread. What we have said is "Kung Fu sucks at groundfighting" and "people who state otherwise suck at groundfighting". If you'd like to argue those points, feel free.

[David Jamieson]

If you didn't care whether or not he was pro fighter, why did you ask if he was a pro-fighter? what's this? the chewbacca defense? gimme a break fd

Seems to me you were expecting and answer in the negative, and now that you've got the opposite you're making a big deal about how you don't care. If you really don't care, why did you ask? more distractions from the points i made than pepperoni on a chicago deep dish :rolleyes:



You said that your CMA teaches how to protect yourself on the ground, and then you made several statements about doing things that are, typically, a bad idea when you're on the ground. can you show me where i said that? What I said was that cma should teach you how to defend from any attack in a logical and fundamental way, not how to pwn in a given range (except striking, stand up locks etc), but to protect yourself from someone attacking you whether you're standing , sitting or they are sitting on top of you



I don't think anyone has said that kung fu sucks in this thread. What we have said is "Kung Fu sucks at groundfighting" and "people who state otherwise suck at groundfighting". If you'd like to argue those points, feel free. ok, you're wrong and you're coming at it from your own point of understanding. I don't think I've ever said the focus of cma was groundfighting, it's not. But you're a bit whacked in this statement because what is being posted by knife and his ilk is that cma sucks period. to which my response is, you are talking out your ass and clearly don't know what it is you are talking about. On the other hand, I've wrestled, i've boxed, I do kungfu. And from that perspective, i can see that the nutrider attitude of Knifes and others is incorrect amnd perhaops they should just stick to talking about what they do instead of pretending to have insight into things they obviously don't do.

the obligatory 10 character sentence because i answered inside the quotes

[Water Dragon]

Wow David, why do you have your undies in a knot over this one?

[David Jamieson]

not particularly, just tired of reading it all the time, so thought I would add my 2 cents, then my 4 cents and so on from the pespective of my own which actualy employs the thinking and training of both moden and oldschool martial arts.

in my experience, a lot of mma mouth boxers on forums don't have the time in with kungfu to make any of the comments they make and they tend to make these huge irrational and false blanket statements because they read or heard something from somebody or don't like some fruitcakes website going on about how to levitate or what have you.

stop painting us all with the same uninformed brush is what Im saying and stop thinking that all martial arts are only measured as useful in a ufc venue because that's a load of crap.

ill keep reiterating it so long as this goes on I guess, afterall this is Kungfu magazine forum, not bash cma forum and not ufc forum. It's like trying to validate good cookie recipes at how to drive a dumptruck forum. while you can ship cookies in dumptrucks, they are not the same thing. :p

[FatherDog]

what's this? the chewbacca defense? gimme a break fd


It's a simple question. Why did you ask if he was a pro-fighter if, as soon as you found out he was, you were just going to spend two paragraphs saying how much you don't care that he's a pro fighter? If you didn't care, why did you ask?


more distractions from the points i made than pepperoni on a chicago deep dish

What points did you make that you feel weren't addressed?





You said that your CMA teaches how to protect yourself on the ground, and then you made several statements about doing things that are, typically, a bad idea when you're on the ground.

can you show me where i said that?


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=712684&postcount=17





I don't think anyone has said that kung fu sucks in this thread. What we have said is "Kung Fu sucks at groundfighting" and "people who state otherwise suck at groundfighting". If you'd like to argue those points, feel free.
ok, you're wrong and you're coming at it from your own point of understanding.

Please explain what part of my statement was wrong.


I don't think I've ever said the focus of cma was groundfighting, it's not.

I didn't say you had.


But you're a bit whacked in this statement because what is being posted by knife and his ilk is that cma sucks period.

Please quote a post in this thread where anyone says that. Just one. Go ahead, I'll wait.

[David Jamieson]

FD-

I guess your reading comprehension ain't up to snuff when it comes to reading knifes posts.

also, care to put into quotes exactly where i said cma trains groundwork as you claim ive said?

thanks

[FatherDog]

FD-

I guess your reading comprehension ain't up to snuff when it comes to reading knifes posts.

So quote the posts you're talking about. go ahead; they shouldn't be hard to find. Quote a post in this thread where KF says or implies that CMA sucks. Quote a post in this thread where ANYONE says or implies that CMA sucks.


also, care to put into quotes exactly where i said cma trains groundwork as you claim ive said?

thanks





Nothing I learned in my cma school showed me exactly what to do if I found myself flat on my back with a guy sitting on my chest throwing punches.
really? what style was that? you don't cover up? feed the stitch side of the forearm? attempt to control the wrists? play the angle of attack to cut it off and reverse? make your own attack?

10-12 years of cma and you never learned to defend yourself from most positions? there is something wrong in what you were taught. that isn't correct at all.

[Water Dragon]

lol. This ranks right up there with Sifu Abel vs. Shaolin Tiger and Dave Ross vs. Anybody.

[BoulderDawg]

You know one thing that I've learned about this board is that many people here talk really REALLY big.....Of course! It's a BB and people can do that without backing it up!:D

Wouldn't it be fun to see these people come together for an actual competition against one another?:eek:

[SevenStar]

You know one thing that I've learned about this board is that many people here talk really REALLY big.....Of course! It's a BB and people can do that without backing it up!:D

Wouldn't it be fun to see these people come together for an actual competition against one another?:eek:

I've kicked water dragon's ass before.

[SevenStar]

not particularly, just tired of reading it all the time, so thought I would add my 2 cents, then my 4 cents and so on from the pespective of my own which actualy employs the thinking and training of both moden and oldschool martial arts.

in my experience, a lot of mma mouth boxers on forums don't have the time in with kungfu to make any of the comments they make and they tend to make these huge irrational and false blanket statements because they read or heard something from somebody or don't like some fruitcakes website going on about how to levitate or what have you.

stop painting us all with the same uninformed brush is what Im saying and stop thinking that all martial arts are only measured as useful in a ufc venue because that's a load of crap.

ill keep reiterating it so long as this goes on I guess, afterall this is Kungfu magazine forum, not bash cma forum and not ufc forum. It's like trying to validate good cookie recipes at how to drive a dumptruck forum. while you can ship cookies in dumptrucks, they are not the same thing. :p


But since this is a cma forum, it's fine when cma guys pick up the uninformed brush and start playing picasso?

[FatherDog]

You know one thing that I've learned about this board is that many people here talk really REALLY big.....Of course! It's a BB and people can do that without backing it up!:D

Wouldn't it be fun to see these people come together for an actual competition against one another?:eek:

I've said, several times, that anytime someone wants to see how good (or how bad) I am at fighting, they're free to come see. I've posted my name, the gym I train at, and the hours I'm there before - I'll do it again here.

David Moraski
Team Endgame Combat Sports Academy
http://www.teamendgame.com
1 Dell Glen Ave, Lodi, NJ

I'm there on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays, from seven or eight till eleven.

I will always, barring injury, roll or spar with anyone who wants to roll or spar, be they rank beginner, old master, black belt, white belt, chartreuse belt, kung fu, kung pow, karate, kickboxing, box-kicking, whatever. I don't care if they're someone who just stopped by to check out the school, or some dude from a message board that wants to come see what's what - I'll spar with anyone. I like to spar.

[David Jamieson]

like i said fd, reading comprehension. Are you reading the same thing? there's nothing there that talks about what you're claiming I said. anyway, i know what time it is with you and you just go ahead and keep that to yourself.

here's the points i made one more time:

wrestling = useless for standup
MT=useless for groundwork
boxing= useless for takedowns, groundwork and kicks.

kungfu needs to spend more time with the ground, the rest is already there.

so, mma-ists, I can aprreciate your thing, but to think that there is not valid attack defense and confrontational response in kungfu is stupid. period.

and yes a kungfu person should be able to protect themselves from any position.
and yes, everybody can lose or win a fight. hurrah. hurrah.

now, exactly whay are you non kungfu guys in a kungfu forum again? and further more why are you bagging on cma in a cma forum if you're not just being trolls?

If you don't know anything about kungfu, because you don't train in a style of chinese martial arts, why are you compelled to comment on its weakness when you haven't got one iota of an idea of what it's strengths are?

ill understand if you don't understand why that is so ridiculous of a position for you to take from the perspective of a kungfu practitioner on a kungfu forum. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

I don't think anyone has said that kung fu sucks in this thread.
While I didn't say it in this thread, I am guilty as charged in other threads.

However, I only think that about 95% of KF sucks. That is the 95% that spend their time doing forms, training with compliant partners, pretending to hit vital targets, never competing in full contact venues, and thinking that their lethal techniques such as iron claws, eye pokes, neck breaks, finger bending, throat crushing and fat grabs are somehow better than MMA training.

Those are pretty much the same guys who think the rules of the UFC are somehow purposly biased against KF techniques.

The 5% that don't suck are the guys who spend their time training pretty much the same way the MMA guys are training.

[sihing]

While I didn't say it in this thread, I am guilty as charged in other threads.

However, I only think that about 95% of KF sucks. That is the 95% that spend their time doing forms, training with compliant partners, pretending to hit vital targets, never competing in full contact venues, and thinking that their lethal techniques such as iron claws, eye pokes, neck breaks, finger bending, throat crushing and fat grabs are somehow better than MMA training.

Those are pretty much the same guys who think the rules of the UFC are somehow purposly biased against KF techniques.

The 5% that don't suck are the guys who spend their time training pretty much the same way the MMA guys are training.

How do you judge an art based on the worst participants/representations of it? KF doesn't suck, the people that practice it may suck. I think it's important that we get that straight. And guess what, the same thing can happen to someone that is training in MMA, or any other MA/fighting art. Last night there was a bio on Ali, one that I never saw before. When he refused to be drafted and was stripped of his title, he had three years off. When he finally came back, he himself noticed, as well as Dundee, that Ali wasn't the same fighter. So even the greatest of the greats, can suck (at their own level that is) with little or improper practice sessions.

As a side note, I do believe that in the Martial Arts, there are more effective methods/concepts/techniques that can be used to amplify someones overall effectiveness as a fighter. Some methods are simply just better to use than others. The Gracie's proved this with their method of JJ, when the UFC first came out.

Just my loonies worth...;)

James

[rogue]

KF doesn't suck, the people that practice it may suck. I think it's important that we get that straight.

Now there's a ringing endorsement for Kung Fu's training methods. Wouldn't it stand to reason that no matter how good an art or method is that if it's full of people that suck that the art has degraded to the level of the practitioners?

[sihing]

Now there's a ringing endorsement for Kung Fu's training methods. Wouldn't it stand to reason that no matter how good an art or method is that if it's full of people that suck that the art has degraded to the level of the practitioners?

No not necessarily. The question is, can you take out the individual and look at what the art teaches someone? That is what I try to do, when I look at a MA system. Of course, there will always be exceptional practitioners in every MA. These exceptional people can virtually make any method work.

The basic formula is simple, absorb what the system is teaching, test it at each level with increased intensity, and then add in a conditioning program with regular intervals of sparring and testing with different opponents and viola, you have a good fighter..

James

P.S. I did say may suck. Does anyone really know what the majority of kung fu schools teach or the quality of their students fighting abilities are? Nope..

[Blacktiger]

There is good and bad in every art.

Just becuse some of the kung fu people you have encountered may have been no good does not mean kung fu is rubbish.

I guess until you get your ass kicked by a kung fu stylist then you will think it has nothing to offer.

Every dog has there day in the sun.

:D

[Yum Cha]

Hey Ray, you still there?

Thanks for your commentary. I'm curious on some of your transitioning and what you are learning.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you are/were a short armed striking fighter, southern style, i.e. rolled shoulders, crunched belly arms up front?

You learned "bridge" or sticky fighting?

Taken to a point, sticky fighting means holding onto your opponent to some extent, perhaps while striking with your other hand or feet. Fighting their center of gravity and poistion on the ground, their "root" some people call it. Are we on the same page, or am I mistaken about your skills?

If not, I've found that bridges easily become very close to grapples, depending on how you work them, and that standing arm bars, rear naked chokes, figure fours and the like are not too far away, if you choose to play them. Have you found any of those foundation skills have translated to your new BBJ or is it all ground work, on mats?

Is there some crossover, some carry over of any old fundamentals that create a new dimension to your stand up game? Any carryover that has helped you prevent the shoot/single or double leg takedown? I believe you know how to use the forearm?

[Toby]

lol. This ranks right up there with Sifu Abel vs. Shaolin Tiger and Dave Ross vs. Anybody.Or Blooming Lotus vs sanity. Funny thread.

[FatherDog]

like i said fd, reading comprehension. Are you reading the same thing? there's nothing there that talks about what you're claiming I said.

You asked where you said CMA trained groundwork.

I linked you to a post where you claimed that CMA teaches you how to defend yourself on the ground.

You're either claiming that

A) CMA trains groundwork, or
B) CMA trains you to defend yourself on the ground without training groundwork.

Since I assumed you're not retarded, I didn't think you meant B.


anyway, i know what time it is with you and you just go ahead and keep that to yourself.

What?


here's the points i made one more time:

I already addressed these points in this post -
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=713589&postcount=56
But since you're apparently having trouble remembering what was said in this thread I'll repeat myself -


wrestling = useless for standup

Nobody said otherwise, and nobody said that all you needed to train was wrestling. Quote someone in this thread saying either of those things.


MT=useless for groundwork

Nobody said otherwise, and nobody said that all you needed to train was muay thai. Quote someone in this thread saying either of those things.


boxing= useless for takedowns, groundwork and kicks.

Nobody said otherwise, and nobody said that all you needed to train was boxing. Quote someone in this thread saying either of those things.


so, mma-ists, I can aprreciate your thing, but to think that there is not valid attack defense and confrontational response in kungfu is stupid. period.

Nobody said there was not "valid attack defense and confrontational response in kungfu". Quote someone in this thread saying that.

So, congratulations - you've made a lot of great points against arguments that people weren't making in this thread. Kudos.

Still waiting for you to answer any of my questions from this post -
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=713815&postcount=69

[yenhoi]

What exactly is the difference between a nonkungfu guy and a kungfu guy?

If you can tell the difference from how people post on a forum, then why wouldent it be possible to tell if someone can or cannot groundfight by how they post on a forum?

There is a lot of cross over between short arm sticky fighting and much of the stuff you find in groundfighting, the main point being posted over and over is that you MUST train on the ground, fighting, to learn how to actually ground fight.

[yenhoi]

MT is not useless for groundfighting, either. Not any more then "Kung Fu" is. LOL

[Water Dragon]

Now there's a ringing endorsement for Kung Fu's training methods. Wouldn't it stand to reason that no matter how good an art or method is that if it's full of people that suck that the art has degraded to the level of the practitioners?

That's basically why I made the switch. Got sick of the 2+ hour drives just to find decent people to work with. Easier to carry my little bag of CMA stuff to the local Judo dojo/mma gym.

[Ray Pina]

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;
Is there some crossover...[/QUOTE]

I'm having so much fun. I'm learning a lot. I already have developed a good level of sensitivity and sticking, so I can flow with somone's arms and elbows, etc.

What I am learning that is really helping is the strenght of certain positions and things I want to achieve, for instance, when I'm ons ide mount and somone uses a forearm to push me away viea my throat, I can tuck their elbow in and take that territory and pin it with my head, then fight for mount and go with any number of locks.... but recognizing the opportunity.

Also, the principles. Once that e;bow is moved, the space can be filled with the head, but also my knee.... that can go to arm bar.

I'm just increasing my possibilities. The talent pool is deep even in the white belt class because you have guys like myself who have trained elsewhere for some time. So sometimes I can tap someone who's just about to become a blue belt, but then get tapped by a 1 or 2 stripe white belt.

What I love is that half the class is used in actually free rolling... end every class soaking wet with sweat.

[wiz cool c]

While I didn't say it in this thread, I am guilty as charged in other threads.

However, I only think that about 95% of KF sucks. That is the 95% that spend their time doing forms, training with compliant partners, pretending to hit vital targets, never competing in full contact venues, and thinking that their lethal techniques such as iron claws, eye pokes, neck breaks, finger bending, throat crushing and fat grabs are somehow better than MMA training.

Those are pretty much the same guys who think the rules of the UFC are somehow purposly biased against KF techniques.

The 5% that don't suck are the guys who spend their time training pretty much the same way the MMA guys are training.

Not everyone can train like a MMA and not everyone wants to be a MMA. I think if they spar at least once a week they are real martail artist. If they compete it will make them better.