Zhou Tong - Teacher of Gen. Yue Fei [Archive]

ghostexorcist

10-11-2006, 03:27 PM

Hey Guys,

I am currently writing an article about Zhou Tong on wikipedia. Many of you might have seen it in the past, but I've recently made some HUGE changes to it. It covers both the "historical" and the "fictional" aspects of this man. I tried to keep a balance as much as I could. However, I think you guys will be extremely suprised with my research. The Zhou Tong that you think you know and love is largely FICTIONAL!

I have sections about what historical text and or individual Yue Fei biographies that he has appeared in. I also comment on the martial arts attributed to him. Some of you may not know, but Zhou Tong even has his own "fictional" wuxia biography. It is called Tiě Bèi Jīn Dāo Zhōu Tóng Zhuàn (铁臂金刀周侗传 - "Iron Arm, Golden Broadsword: The Biography of Zhou Tong") and it was published in 1986. I have my own personal copy of it, but since my chinese is poor, it will take me a while to read it!

I'm looking for some serious feedback on the page's strengths and weaknesses. Please keep in mind that the page is still a "work-in-progress". I change or add new material as it comes available. If you see something lacking from the page that you would like to see added, just leave me an email. But keep in mind that it has to have a solid source and not just something that you heard from a sparring buddy!

Here is the url - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29

I left something similar to this on wikipedia's martial arts page and not a single person wrote me back. I'm hoping that I will get more hits on this forum. For those of you that know him, Sal Canzonieri (I hope I spelled that right) likes the page and provided me with material that I just added to the page today!

Sal, if you read this and I misspelled your name, my last name is McClanahan, so mine is butchered all the time!

Shaolin Master

10-11-2006, 03:59 PM

Some info may appear here:
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/history.html

mantis108

10-11-2006, 04:45 PM

ghostexorcist

10-12-2006, 10:52 AM

Some info may appear here:
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/history.html

Thanks for the information. I like the article, however the first part of it seems to have been "cut and pasted" from areas of my Zhou Tong article, including a picture with the exact same caption, as well as other articles from wikipedia. I've been editing on wikipedia for a while and I can say with all confidence that NO ONE should cite wikipedia as a source! Even the creator of wikipedia says the same thing. He views wikipedia as a "beginning" and not an "end" to someone's research. Now I’m not saying that my info is incorrect, but most of it is fictional (as I stated in the article). There is VERY little written about Zhou Tong in actual historical texts.

ghostexorcist

10-12-2006, 11:07 AM

Nice work.

Just a few comments:

Xiang is a problematic word for westerners. It's not just "elephants".

Xiang Xue (the art of face reading) is one of the many fortune telling methods of Chinese people. Actually face reading is a bit of a misnomer because it's also about observing behaviour for rendering judgement on someone's fortune.

Another definition of Xiang is that it is a part of the study of Yijing (classic of change). Many masters of Chinese martial arts especially those who taught military arts (ie archery, riding, etc) would have studied the Yijing as well. This is because Yijing study is crucial to military strategists.

I have read a book about the Eagle Claw Fanzi that translated Xiang Xing Quan as "elephant style fist" which couldn't be more eroneous. Xiang Xing Quan simply meants that a style of boxing that's imitates animal behaviour or spirit.

The truth of the matter is that Zhou Tong would have been more than likely a martial arts teacher who was also teaching military strategy instead of being a monk. But Henan province especially Shaolin Temple for the reason of attracting more tourist dallors laid claims to the arts Zhou Tong taught to the famous General Yue.

just a few thoughts to share.

Mantis108

Could you direct me to a solid source that mentions "Xiang Xing Qian" in reference to the imitation of a generalized animal spirit or behavior? I would like to note this in the article. I have heard of this myself, but Elephant seems to be the overall consensus in the western world (though it might be wrong).

Also, could you direct me to a solid source that shows the Shaolin Temple actually claims Zhou Tong as Yue Fei's teacher? If I can connect when this association first took place, I can place when people started referring to Zhou Tong as a "Shaolin Monk". As I stated in the "Fact or Fiction" section, the Yue Fei biography (岳飞传) that first appeared in the Yuan dynasty's History of the Song (宋史), Zhou Tong is ONLY represented as Yue Fei's archery teacher and nothing more. So in the article, I can say, between this time and this time, Zhou Tong was considered just an archer or military man, but after this date, he was considered a Shaolin monk.

Thanks for brining my attention to this material! I have heard of this, but I always thought it was a legend with no real source. I didn’t realize the Shaolin temple actually laid claim to this. Wow, a legend with a source, who would of thought?

ghostexorcist

10-12-2006, 11:15 AM

mantis108

10-12-2006, 12:29 PM

Does anyone know the actual source for the legend that Zhou Tong also taught the future-bandits Wu Song, Lin Chong, and Lu Junyi? I originally found the info on the very same Xingyi page that mentioned Zhou Tong was an Abbot of Shaolin. I'm sure they got their info about these students somewhere.

Just a quick thought. Here's the Chinese article concerning the real person Wu Song

真实的武松：浪迹江湖刺杀权奸的卖艺人
【作者：李阳泉来源：天涯点击数：2716 文章录入：扯淡网】
《水浒全传》中武松的故事占据了很大的篇幅，像“景阳冈武松打虎”“供人头武二郎设祭”“武松醉打蒋门神” “武松大闹飞云浦”“张都监血溅鸳鸯楼，武行者夜走蜈蚣岭”……哪一段故事都是脍炙人口的。尤其是后人附会的“单臂擒方腊”更使得英雄武松名满华夏。
　　
然而，这一切都是小说家言。
　　
《临安县志》《西湖大观》《杭州府志》《浙江通志》等史籍都记载了北宋时杭州知府中的提辖武松勇于为民除恶的侠义壮举。上述史籍中，武松原系浪迹江湖的卖艺人，“貌奇伟，尝使技于涌金门外”，“非盗也”。杭州知府高权见武松武艺高强，人才出众，遂邀请入府，让他充当都头。不久，因功被提为提辖，成为知府高权的心腹。后来高权因得罪权贵，被奸人诬谄而罢官。武松也因此受到牵连，被赶出衙门。继任的新知府是太师蔡京的儿子蔡鋆，是个大奸臣。他倚仗其父的权势，在杭州任上虐政殃民，百姓怨声载道，人称蔡鋆为“蔡虎”。武松对这个奸臣恨之入骨，决心拼上性命也要为民除害。一日，他身藏利刃，隐匿在蔡府之前，候蔡婆前呼后拥而来之际，箭一般冲上前去，向蔡鋆猛刺数刀，当即结果了他的性命。官兵蜂拥前来围攻武松，武松终因寡不敌众被官兵捕获。后惨遭重刑死于狱中。当地“百姓深感其德，葬于杭州西泠桥畔”，后人立碑，题曰“宋义士武松之墓” 。
　　
这段真实的记载，想必施耐庵是看过的，将其中的几个细节充分渲染，便成了小说中的武松。至于武松的最后结局，《水浒全传》中写到他成了清忠祖师，得享天年，实在是一种符合老百姓心愿的美好的艺术处理。

The real Wu Song was a kind of a police captain in the Heng Zhou perfecture. He ended up killing the corrupted new head of the perfecture (nicknamed Cai Hu - Tiger with the Cai Surename) in the manner of a vigilante justice for the people. He died by torture while in jail as he was capture at the scene.

Much of his exploits in the "Water Margin" are embellished and fictional tales based on the four local record books listed in the in Chinese text.

Regards

Mantis108

ghostexorcist

10-13-2006, 02:57 PM

Sal Canzonieri recommended the following books as the introductions tell the legend of how Deng Liang taught Zhou tong Chuo Jiao. According to the legend, Deng Liang is the creator of Chuo Jiao.

Jiuzhuan Lianhuan Yuanyangtui
ISBN 7-5009-1096-7

Chuo Jiao Fan Tzi
ISBN: 7-5009-2366-X

The info from the first book sounds exactly the same as that from this sight: http://www.chinavoc.com/kungfu/schools/cata_chj.asp

Does anyone have access to these books? He gave me an internet address (http://www.plumpub.com/sales/books.htm) where I could buy the books myself, but I can't locate them on the site. Plus, they are in Chinese and mine is pretty bad. I would like to add some of the information from the intros into my article. Thanks.

Shaolin Master

10-13-2006, 03:54 PM

ghostexorcist

10-13-2006, 04:31 PM

Ghost exorcist,

Excuse me :mad: , but that picture was taken personally at the Yue Fei Musuem, Hangzhou in 2003........In fact if you look at the quality of the picture (yours is distorted in dimensions and pixels, and the lighting is different you can tell). There are many murals and that is the only one that depicts Zhou Tong teaching Yue Fei and in fact it is by coincidence that caption description is the same.

The text alludes to military strategy, yours attempted specifc arts.....so be very mindful before such a silly statement is made. Our text is a summary from the combination of verbal, chuojiao articles and texts in chinese .... also note the segment title 'legendary origins'....

Lastly, I agree with Mantis108,...the 'shaolin' abbotthood thing is completely bogus,....
The Zhou Quan Tui is also bogus......also, Xiang is not elephant....it is reference to imitation (xiangxingquan)

Woooooo, calm down. You took my “silly” comments the wrong way!!! If I hurt your feelings I am sorry. I wasn’t trying to step on anyone’s toes. You must admit though that the picture (though with different pixels) and the captions are very similar. Plus, the beginning information is very similar to my own. I didn’t create the info, and I’m sure both of ours came from the same place. Sal Canzonieri pointed me in the direction of a certain Chuojiao book which mentions Deng Liang and all of that material.

In regards to the “abbot” thing, I think I’ve clearly stated that all of this is legend in the very beginning and throughout various parts of the article:

There are no Song Dynasty records that concretely show he was in fact a Shaolin monk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29#Fact_or_Fiction.3F (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29#Fact_or_Fiction.3F)

Resignation

According to the Master Cai Wen Yu's Association, Zhou Tong resigned from his Shaolin Abbotship for "political reasons that affected China at the time".[13] These "political reasons" might refer to the decline of Buddhism during the Song Dynasty, which was caused by the backlash of various Buddhist persecutions and the rise of Neo-Confucianism.[20]

Neither of the 說岳全傳 or 宋史•岳飞传 biographies even mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin monk, let alone an abbot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29#Resignation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29#Resignation)

I even stated in the last part of the "Fact or Fiction" section of the article that Yue Fei's biography ONLY mentions Zhou Tong as Yue Fei's archery teacher and nothing more. In my "attempted" "Shaolin Skills" section, I stated that no other martial arts were associated with Zhou Tong in the same biography.

I put the “Shaolin Abbot” information in there because I believe all areas of the Zhou Tong “legend” should be covered. I've contacted the organization where I got this info in regards to the source of their belief in this matter. I hope to hear back from them soon. Also, if you will refer back to some of my original comments…

Could you direct me to a solid source that mentions "Xiang Xing Qian" in reference to the imitation of a generalized animal spirit or behavior? I would like to note this in the article. I have heard of this myself, but Elephant seems to be the overall consensus in the western world (though it might be wrong).

…You will see that I’ve already looked into this. Again, I would like to apologize for upsetting you. If you or Mantis108 could point me in the direction of the "Xiang Xing Quan" info I would greatly appreciate it. In fact, any other material that you know of in reference to Zhou Tong would be graciously accepted.

ghostexorcist

10-13-2006, 05:12 PM

Could you direct me to a solid source that mentions "Xiang Xing Qian" in reference to the imitation of a generalized animal spirit or behavior? I would like to note this in the article. I have heard of this myself, but Elephant seems to be the overall consensus in the western world (though it might be wrong).

I've found one page that mentions this and I've made changes to my article to show the "elephant" might refer to Xiang Xing Quan. I would like to see other pages that mention this as well. Also, I know the characters for "Xiang" and "Quan", but I am unsure of the correct character for "Xing". Could somebody help me out?

Shaolin Master

10-13-2006, 05:38 PM

象形拳 (Xiangxingquan)

mantis108

10-13-2006, 05:43 PM

Xiang Xing Quan (象形拳 ) is more or less a contemporary term for a category of pugilistic systems and styles. It is almost a common knowledge amongst TCMA practitioners that there are styles available that imitate animal spirit or movements. For example Monkey, Eagle, Mantis, Dragon, Tiger, Crane, etc are all Xiang Xing Quan. No one in the Kung Fu community really bother to specifically "define" these as Xiang Xing Quan because it's common knowledge. However, since you are interested in "scholarly research" I think you can find the term in Chapter 5 of a Chinese book called "Zhongguo Gongfu Baiyangtong" WongTing Bianzhu Changzhen ChubanShe [ISBN -7-80015-299-5]. This book is first published in July, 1994 from mainland China. Now, you would have to be able to read Chinese though.

On a different note, it is extremely difficult to verify or investigate a system or style lineage that are older than Ming (1368-1644 CE). Anytime a system or a style claims to be associated with certain people famous or otherwise as progenitor, it is possible to check the local records of such as the county gazettes for the activities of the said people (unless of course it's "legendary"). Sometimes if you are lucky, you would have family records available. So...

Many styles claims to be originated during Song dynasty because of the rise of a school of thought known as Xiang Shu Xue Pai (Phenomena & Mathematics academia) that is considered a key element of Neo-Confucianism. Many of the theories found in TCMA are based on this school of thought (ie Taiji Tu Shuo - Discourse on Taiji Diagram).

So most of the legend of the styles (oral or otherwise) can only be taking with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.

Regards

Mantis108

mantis108

10-13-2006, 06:09 PM

Almost forgot ...

There's an alternate name of 九枝子 (Jiu Zhi Zi) which is 蹴枝子. 蹴 (pronounced as Zu) is kicking as in the popular sport of kicking a soccer ball like leather ball (蹴鞠) during the Song dynasty that is also mentioned in the "water margin". If you observe the kicking techniques of the Chuojiao you would notice the remarkable resemblance of kicking soccer.

So the 九枝子 being derived from mathematic discipline and such is properly a move to make the style sound more scholarly credible.

Regards

Mantis108

taaigihk

10-14-2006, 01:16 AM

Almost forgot ...

There's an alternate name of 九枝子 (Jiu Zhi Zi) which is 蹴枝子. 蹴 (pronounced as Zu) is kicking as in the popular sport of kicking a soccer ball like leather ball (蹴鞠) during the Song dynasty that is also mentioned in the "water margin".

Interesting. Didn't know that. Thanks. Could you tell where this info comes from? Just curious.

ghostexorsist,

in that wikipedia article there's this part mentioning his strenght or ability as an archer. In think that it is not that he could fire 8 stones with a sling, but rather bend a crossbow with a draw weight of 8 stones, where a 'stone' is a weight measure. You might go to atarn.net and ask some competent people there too.

ghostexorcist

10-14-2006, 03:24 AM

Interesting. Didn't know that. Thanks. Could you tell where this info comes from? Just curious.

ghostexorsist,

in that wikipedia article there's this part mentioning his strenght or ability as an archer. In think that it is not that he could fire 8 stones with a sling, but rather bend a crossbow with a draw weight of 8 stones, where a 'stone' is a weight measure. You might go to atarn.net and ask some competent people there too.

Thanks. I originally had the translation as "pull a crossbow of 8 Shi" but a Chinese acquaintance on Wikipedia translated it as the current version. I guess my translation was more correct. I think he was trying to translate it in such a way that westerners might recognize. I’ll change it back.

ghostexorcist

10-14-2006, 03:35 AM

象形拳 (Xiangxingquan)

What would be the best way of translating 象形拳? "Image Form Boxing"?

Shaolin Master

10-14-2006, 05:10 AM

Imitation Boxing.

Regarding 蹴枝子, that is correct in the water margin there is ample depiction of that skill (like the shuttleball game that we played in high school).......

ghostexorcist

10-15-2006, 05:06 AM

I rearranged portions of the page to bring an even greater balance to some of the historical and fictional information. But most importantly, I added a small paragraph detailing Zhou Tong's connections with Praying Mantis boxing. It’s at the bottom of the “Martial arts” section.

According to the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual, written in 1794, Abbot Fuyu invited 18 masters to Shaolin. Some of Zhou Tong's students were among those invited. And before anyone says anything, I realize that this meeting was probably a legend. The historical Fuyu lived from 1203-1275, so the gathering could not have taken place in the early Song Dynasty like it is stated in the numerous variations of this legend. It is also erroneous because Zhou Tong’s students would have died of old age by the time Abbot Fuyu held this gathering in the mid – late 13th century. Either it happened at the end of the Song Dynasty or not at all. (I hope I got the character right for “pu” from the Tanglang quan pu. Someone please tell me if I did or not.)

I would also like to note that I added the "Xiang Xing Quan" information as a footnote at the bottom of the page. I did, however, add it to the main eagle claw page where it actually belongs.

mantis108

10-15-2006, 01:28 PM

According to the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual, written in 1794, Abbot Fuyu invited 18 masters to Shaolin. Some of Zhou Tong's students were among those invited. And before anyone says anything, I realize that this meeting was probably a legend. The historical Fuyu lived from 1203-1275, so the gathering could not have taken place in the early Song Dynasty like it is stated in the numerous variations of this legend. It is also erroneous because Zhou Tong’s students would have died of old age by the time Abbot Fuyu held this gathering in the mid – late 13th century. Either it happened at the end of the Song Dynasty or not at all. (I hope I got the character right for “pu” from the Tanglang quan pu. Someone please tell me if I did or not.)

I believe you are talking about the "Luohan Xinggong Duan Da" Manual which has many versions available. It is a "folk" martial arts manuscript as oppose to "government" sanctioned ones such as the Ming dynasty "Ji Xiao Xin Shu".

The manuscript is said to be edited by Shengxiao Daoren who claimed to have "learned" from Fuju (fortune resides) not Fuyu (fortune afluent). Fuju is more than likely a fictional character as with the many fictional characters in "18 families" sonnet or it's a character based on the historical Fuyu. At least 5 to 6 characters (1/3) amongst the 18 are fictional characters from different novels: 3 - 4 from Fei Long Quan Zhuan (a tale of Song Taizu) and 2 from the water margin.

The purpose of the 18 families is to "introduce" the so called Tanglang Shou Fa (mantis techniques) of Wanglang, which would seem to have been based on the indigeneous Kung Fu of Shandong - Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Further explanations of the Tanglang Shou Fa is echoed by the paragraphes such as the "Shou Fa Zhong Lun" that follow. So the manuscript is really well put together despite some borrowing of fictional material.

BTW, Tanglang Quanpu is another manuscript date 1935 by a famous Tanglang master named Cui Shoushan. Tanglang Quanpu is rather a semi private manuscript.

Regards

Mantis108

ghostexorcist

10-15-2006, 02:22 PM

I believe you are talking about the "Luohan Xinggong Duan Da" Manual which has many versions available. It is a "folk" martial arts manuscript as oppose to "government" sanctioned ones such as the Ming dynasty "Ji Xiao Xin Shu".

The manuscript is said to be edited by Shengxiao Daoren who claimed to have "learned" from Fuju (fortune resides) not Fuyu (fortune afluent). Fuju is more than likely a fictional character as with the many fictional characters in "18 families" sonnet or it's a character based on the historical Fuyu. At least 5 to 6 characters (1/3) amongst the 18 are fictional characters from different novels: 3 - 4 from Fei Long Quan Zhuan (a tale of Song Taizu) and 2 from the water margin.

The purpose of the 18 families is to "introduce" the so called Tanglang Shou Fa (mantis techniques) of Wanglang, which would seem to have been based on the indigeneous Kung Fu of Shandong - Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Further explanations of the Tanglang Shou Fa is echoed by the paragraphes such as the "Shou Fa Zhong Lun" that follow. So the manuscript is really well put together despite some borrowing of fictional material.

BTW, Tanglang Quanpu is another manuscript date 1935 by a famous Tanglang master named Cui Shoushan. Tanglang Quanpu is rather a semi private manuscript.

Regards

Mantis108

I knew the difference between the Fuju and Fuyu abbots. I put Fuyu because I knew it was more historically correct. I guess I should change it to Fuju and comment how he is a fictionalized persona of the historical Fuyu.

Also, I've read about the other "Tanglang Quanpu" from 1935 as well. However, I didn't realize the one from 1794 went under a different name. All of my English sources call it the Tanglang Quanpu. What are the Chinese characters for "Luohan Xinggong Duan Da"? Could you send me a link to a Chinese page so I can use it as a source? Thanks.

Shaolin Master

10-16-2006, 03:49 AM

罗汉行功短打 (Luohan Xinggong Duan Da)

ISSN： 1671-1572
体育文史
JOURNAL OF SPORT HISTORY AND CULTURE
2001 No.1 P.36-37,9

ghostexorcist

10-16-2006, 10:56 AM

罗汉行功短打 (Luohan Xinggong Duan Da)

ISSN： 1671-1572
体育文史
JOURNAL OF SPORT HISTORY AND CULTURE
2001 No.1 P.36-37,9

Thanks. How would you translate that? I know what each individual character means, but I'm afraid I would butcher it into a "herky-jerky" english sentence.

ghostexorcist

10-16-2006, 01:29 PM

The purpose of the 18 families is to "introduce" the so called Tanglang Shou Fa (mantis techniques) of Wanglang, which would seem to have been based on the indigeneous Kung Fu of Shandong - Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Further explanations of the Tanglang Shou Fa is echoed by the paragraphes such as the "Shou Fa Zhong Lun" that follow. So the manuscript is really well put together despite some borrowing of fictional material. manuscript.

Can someone direct me to a martial arts page that actually states the intended use of the "18 families" legend?

mantis108

10-16-2006, 06:50 PM

Can someone direct me to a martial arts page that actually states the intended use of the "18 families" legend?

I should clarify that this view is straightly my own coming from a praying mantis stylist of the Greater Meihwa Line tradition that began with Liang Xuexiang (1810 - ?) who happened to have written private manuscripts of his own.

I know of an article or two in Chinese that talks about the manuscript. Those are the insight of particular people who have worked on the manuscript in recent years but I don't know what qualification they have if any. So...

Regards

Mantis108

ghostexorcist

10-17-2006, 12:54 PM

My article is currently rated as "B-class" on the quality scale by the military history wiki project. There are six classes: Stub, Start, B-class, Good Article (GA), A-class, and Featured. Featured articles are shown on the main home page of English Wikipedia for all new comers and veterans to see. B-class and Good article are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is "usefulness to all readers" and a few other points.

The reason my article will NEVER progress beyond the B or GA class is because of its scant material. Overall, the length of my article is good, but I don't have enough "meat and potatoes" if you will in reference to his life and other matters. There is just too little written on Zhou Tong.

I sure could use A LOT more Chinese sources, even if they attribute to a fictional legend about him. All areas involving the myth or history of Zhou Tong should be covered.

taaigihk

10-18-2006, 05:50 AM

Imitation Boxing.

Regarding 蹴枝子, that is correct in the water margin there is ample depiction of that skill (like the shuttleball game that we played in high school).......

I see. But was it a depiction of a game or a martial art (jiuzhizi)? It's not clear to me. Thanks :)

Shaolin Master

10-18-2006, 08:15 AM

Hi taaigihk,

In the story it was a game.

For us it is also the name of just a single technique 蹴子脚.:) .....it is in our Raomatui form (Wentangzi)文趟子绕码腿.......the technique is in fact exactly as when playing the game.....:D

Regards
Wu Chanlong

PS: Please join our forum, I have not released it yet (only have some test posts) but it should be ready to use.....http://wugong.satirio.com/phpBB/

ghostexorcist

10-19-2006, 05:32 PM

I've added a few more things to the page and I have cleaned it up to make it easier to read. Before, it looked too "busy".

Sal Canzonieri

10-20-2006, 02:04 AM

ghostexorcist

10-20-2006, 09:49 AM

The Tang Lang legend from the 1700s comes from Shaolin history saying that Abbott Fu Yu during the time he was at Shaolin, over the span of some years, at least 3, maybe 5 invited many masters to come to Shaolin and help him revamp the system.
They did create a book with over 300 forms, and some new systems, such as
the Jin Gang style and the Protect the Home style, Kan Jia Quan.
These forms are still done by the oldest generations still around from Shaolin.

I guess that by the 1700s this factual stuff (?) changed into the legendary story.

But, what about Ilya's site talking about a book from Shaolin that was from the Song Dynasty that also mentions the 18 masters and was his 'proof" that Wang Lang was really from Song period and not Qing? Was that book really from the Song dynasty?

For some reason, the story is that this Fu Yu went to Shandong after Shaolin got shut down by the Yuan Dynasty.

Wasn't Fu Yu appointed by the Mongolians?
That's what I read in a history book once.
He was appointed by Kublai Khan in the late Southern Song Dynasty. But all of the legends I have read say that it was Abbot Fu Ju (福居), who lived during the early Northern Song, who invited the 18 masters. This Fu Ju is a legendary person of the "historical" Fu Yu (福裕) (1203-1275) from the late Southern Song Dynasty. Both are spelled with different characters.

Fu Yu was the 1st Abbot of the 3rd Lineage. The 2nd lineage ended with Abbot Hui Neng in the early 8th century (or so I read).

I have heard of this manual on several websites. But there is plenty of conflicting information that might lead someone to believe the "list" in the manual is full of legendary people. For instance, it counts Lin Chong and Yan Qing among the masters. The historical uprising that spawned the "Water Margin" happened in 1120 or so. But the legend says the masters gathered in the early northern song. They wouldn't even have been born yet. Plus, the historical abbot lived well after the Northern Song. Even if he did hold a gathering, Lin Chong and Yan Qing would have been long dead of old age by this time.

mantis108

10-20-2006, 11:32 AM

First a recap from old threads:

I found this piece of info on the KFO about the rivalry between Chinese Buddhist and Taoist monks. It might relate to the Mantis since ithis is where the 18 styles (including a version of Mantis) were supposedly taught in Shaolin. A caveat - this is raw material so please don't draw any hasty conclusion.

<<<It is a point that touchs on our collective Songshan Shaolin history and a series of events that go back to the dying days of the northern Song Dynasty. It begins with the Jurchens and their 120 year 'alien' rule over the north parts which included the areas where Shaolin Si stood and following by the Mongolian conquest that swept from the north pushing the Jin out of the region. These conquests created great havoc not only in the population at large but in the monastic world.

It is important to point out that a large number of monasteries in the north were either destroyed or abandoned. The Mongol invasion was a time of great tribulation. There were even proposals by some Mongol leaders to turn northern China into a great pasture land by killing every single Chinese person in the regions. It would have been the greatest slaughter of human beings in the history man. This did not happen largely because of a few Chinese Buddhist leaders that held sway over the Mongol court.

Of these giants among men, the greatest was a Chan monk by the name of Hai-yun. A number of Taoist monks were involved in this great work of defending the and saving the population as well. The most notable was Qui Chuji (aka. Ch'ang-ch'un chen-jen). At that time he was the patriarch of Quanzhen sect of Taoism. Early in the Mongol campaign into Central Asia, Qui Chuji befriended Genghis Khan and subsequently was appointed as administrator of all religious communities including the Buddhist ones. He further gave Qiu Chuji an edict exempting all clergy in China from taxes and labor service obligations. Armed with this power, the Taoists immediately began leveraging their position to take over Buddhist monasteries which had been neglected because of the many military campaigns and even more boldly forcefully, seizing temples and monastery that were occupied.

The Chan monk Hai-yun had become very influential with the Mongolian military government as well and eventually was appointed superintendent of Buddhist Affairs in north China. Earlier on Hai-yun recommended Fu-yu being appointed Abbot (Fang-chang) of Shaolin Si. At his recommendation Fu-yu was appointed to lead the Buddhists in denouncing Taoist appropriation of Buddhist monasteries as well as other misrepresentations in front of the Mongol military governor. After arguments from both sides, Kublai Kan declared the Buddhist as winners and ordered that all seized property be returned. It was under the directions of Fang-chang, Venerable Fu-yu and Shaolin monks had the onerous task of taking these temples back. It appears that the training and development of a defensive force was the direct result of these events as there was a great resistance on the part of the Taoists to comply. Buddhist historical records document this debate with the Taoists but not the Buddhist defensive martial initiative under his direction. That comes to us from marital traditions of various Shaolin Lohan lineages. But they do make sense and are relatively consistent.

To summarize what Fu-yu did, was to invite 18 martial experts over a 9 year period, each staying for a three year period to train Shaolin monks and record martial methods, creating a defensive system at Songshan Shaolin Si - the 'muscle' so to speak, to accomplish the task of rebuilding Buddhism in the Mongol territories. . The result was that there was a great depository of highly effective martial methods at Shaolin Si but not necessarily a coherent system.

No it is not folklore, but what is fabrication is that Shaolin Kung fu is sect of Chan Buddhism with martial arts as its core and that Fu-yu founded a style of martial arts at Shaolin.

Actual the Buddhist Taoist debates and controversies go back to the Han Dynasty. By the 1200's it was already a thousand year old controversy. A controvery that was end by Fu-yu in 1258. This final 'show down' took place after the long standing bickering took a particularly nasty turn with the Taoist appropriating over 500 Buddhist monasteries and temples and destroying statues notably of Buddha and Kuan-yin. Furthermore their campaign included misleading Buddhist converts through what were essential two fabricated Taoist apocrypha. Although these texts were ancient, they were simply copies of very old fabrications that were part of the controversy for centuries. Although these controversies were framed in doctrinal matters, they, as I mention above, were essentially political power struggles. It was Fu-yu that is given credit for putting this 1000 year old debate to rest and discrediting the claim by the Taoists, that Buddha was but a manifestations of Lao-tzu. The Taoist were claiming that Lao-tzu appeared as Buddha for the expressed purpose of converting the 'barbarians.'

Fu yu headed the debate on 3 occasions in 1255, in 1256 ( the Taoist refused to attend that meeting), and finely in 1258 where he lead 300 Buddhist and faced 200 Taoist. This grand assembly a K'ai-p'ing took place at the order of Qubilai Kan with the intention to settle the matter once and for all. At that time the Taoists lost much property as well as influence with the Mongol court. Apparently, however, Taoist did not rollover easily in giving up any property. I believe this was the principle reason why Fu-yu re-established a formal marital organization and martial arm at Shaolin.>>>

...

This is posted by R, a KFO member. I copied it here. Some food for thoughts

And I echo this point "No it is not folklore, but what is fabrication is that Shaolin Kung fu is sect of Chan Buddhism with martial arts as its core and that Fu-yu founded a style of martial arts at Shaolin.", although I have to say that it is in fact folklore because of this statement " Buddhist historical records document this debate with the Taoists but not the Buddhist defensive martial initiative under his direction. That comes to us from marital traditions of various Shaolin Lohan lineages. But they do make sense and are relatively consistent."

By the end of Yuan dynasty (1206-1368 CE) roughly around 1360s Henan Shaolin was invaded by the Red Turban (White Lotus cult). As legend goes, it was almost destroyed but a Kitchen aid, later identified as Jin-Nalou Diety, used "magics" to defeat the Red Turban. Now, if there was great "martial tradition or defense" then why would the temple be in trouble. Furthermore, where the hack was the "Luohan" practitioners? They weren't there because the Luohan style NEVER existed then! However, we see a similar retelling of the story in Qing dynasty with the Southern Shaolin particularly in the (Yongchun, Red Boat Wing Chun, Hung Gar - another Buddhist/Luohan exponent) with the burning of the Southern Shaolin and the Abbot Gee Sim escape and hide in the Red Boat as a (drum rolls...) kitchen aid who came to the rescue of the Red Boat when they got into trouble. There is an intimate relationship between Luohan style and White Lotus cult which had its power base in the southern regions (ie Henan, Zhejiang, Suzhou, Fujian) and North Eastern region (Shandong).

Luohan style is a product of cult militia IMHO. It was developed based on the southern method of Fanziquan which was synonomous with Duan Da (short strikes) otherwise known as Nei Nien Shou (inner curtain hands). If look at the references and synoptics of the Luohan Xinggong Duanda manuscripts (where the 18 families sonnet originated), we know that it used a lot of Yuan dynasty Opera material (ie Xi Xiang Ji), Ming dynasty chapter Novels (water margin, Fei Long Chuan Zhuan, etc), Neo-Confucianism concepts and theories (Song dynasty), Ming dynasty martial art manuscripts, etc. All these points to the manuscripts can not be possibly a work of early Song dynasty and least of all Buddhist in origin (no actual Buddhist terminology is used ever).

Regards

Mantis108

Sal Canzonieri

10-20-2006, 02:34 PM

First a recap from old threads:

By the end of Yuan dynasty (1206-1368 CE) roughly around 1360s Henan Shaolin was invaded by the Red Turban (White Lotus cult). As legend goes, it was almost destroyed but a Kitchen aid, later identified as Jin-Nalou Diety, used "magics" to defeat the Red Turban. Now, if there was great "martial tradition or defense" then why would the temple be in trouble. Furthermore, where the hack was the "Luohan" practitioners? They weren't there because the Luohan style NEVER existed then! However, we see a similar retelling of the story in Qing dynasty with the Southern Shaolin particularly in the (Yongchun, Red Boat Wing Chun, Hung Gar - another Buddhist/Luohan exponent) with the burning of the Southern Shaolin and the Abbot Gee Sim escape and hide in the Red Boat as a (drum rolls...) kitchen aid who came to the rescue of the Red Boat when they got into trouble. There is an intimate relationship between Luohan style and White Lotus cult which had its power base in the southern regions (ie Henan, Zhejiang, Suzhou, Fujian) and North Eastern region (Shandong).

Luohan style is a product of cult militia IMHO. It was developed based on the southern method of Fanziquan which was synonomous with Duan Da (short strikes) otherwise known as Nei Nien Shou (inner curtain hands). If look at the references and synoptics of the Luohan Xinggong Duanda manuscripts (where the 18 families sonnet originated), we know that it used a lot of Yuan dynasty Opera material (ie Xi Xiang Ji), Ming dynasty chapter Novels (water margin, Fei Long Chuan Zhuan, etc), Neo-Confucianism concepts and theories (Song dynasty), Ming dynasty martial art manuscripts, etc. All these points to the manuscripts can not be possibly a work of early Song dynasty and least of all Buddhist in origin (no actual Buddhist terminology is used ever).

Regards

Mantis108

Great, thanks for posting that all!!!

So the conclusion is that Abbott Fu Yu, after 1256(?) had help from people to collect a bunch of martial art stuff and document this stuff, and it was used as necessary to fight taoists?

Thus, the legends are all "playing telephone" distorted reflections of this time period, correct? The legends by the time of the Ming Dynasty added in all kinds of people to make the story look cool.

Skipping all the legend styff.

What about the story of Jue Yuan meeting up with Bai Yu Feng, and Li Su and his son?

If that is factual, it would have to have happened at the tail end of the Yuan, when Shaolin was at a lowpoint, after the Red Turban invasion, yes?

If he and they re-worked whatever Louhan quan was there at the time, it would follow that this Louhan quan was whatever remained of the forms that Fu Yu collected?

(also can someone please tell of the Wah Quan controversy, that supposedly Bai Yu Feng eased and reintroduced Wah Quan into Shaolin martial arts, he being the librarian at the temple?)

(Also, can someone help me trace Fantzi being spread in Henan province, by when, by whom, etc.?)

I agree the Louhan shares a lot with Fantzi, Fantzi has Louhan forms, even a 32 Tai Tzu Quan form.

So, pre-song dynasty, what Shaolin had was: whatever loose boxing and grappling methods people picked up and did for exercise and self defense, as necessary. This stuff was just what techniques people picked up here and there, or vistors brought in.

Then at start of Song Dynasty, Emperor Chao gives them a gift of his Tai Tzu Chang Quan. His books and notes of his martial art theories and training.

Then, because of Jin and Mongol invasions, the place is pretty dead for martial arts.

Somewhere around 1250 Abbott Fu Yu gathers martial art stuff from various masters, and he makes a book showing the "forms", etc, whatever.
Somewhere in here Louhan Quan is developed.

Then Shaolin dies out again not too long after, there there is the Red Turban invasion, etc and near end of the Yuan Dynasty
Jue Yuan and friends develop a new system starting from what was left of Luohan and adding in internal MA ideas from Louyang White Horse temple.

Then Shaolin martial arts becomes more stable and established during the Ming Dynasty, where many forms and substyles of Shaolin Martial arts developed.

Finally, during Qing dynasty various Shaolion styles become standardized there and spread all over China.

Is this rough timeline correct?

How does the Xin Yi Ba fit in?
When was it created? by whom?

Sal Canzonieri

10-20-2006, 04:15 PM

About southern Fantzi and Luohan.

From what I see so far, Fantzi/Chuojiao spread into Henan
and south after the 1860s, when Zhao Canyi brought it there.

So, how/when can southern fantzi become a forerunner to Luohan Quan?

mantis108

10-20-2006, 05:19 PM

Great, thanks for posting that all!!!

You are most welcome. :)

So the conclusion is that Abbott Fu Yu, after 1256(?) had help from people to collect a bunch of martial art stuff and document this stuff, and it was used as necessary to fight taoists?

Well, not a conclusion and no one can draw conclusion without seeing the ACTUAL manuscript that is signed and sealed by Fu Yu if he really did that. All else are just speculations. Now, there is another way of getting to the bottom of things which is to examin the financial journals of Henan Shaolin (not necessarily the balance sheet) that's around that time. But then good luck with that. ;) No one can lie in those kind of records. How much money was spent on what? If there's a huge event such as the debate of doctrain or tournament/seminar of martial arts there had to be records indicating these stuffs. So...

Personally, I don't buy the Fu Yu put together a secret manuscript with drawing story.

Thus, the legends are all "playing telephone" distorted reflections of this time period, correct? The legends by the time of the Ming Dynasty added in all kinds of people to make the story look cool.

More or less. I would think it's rather in lat Ming and early Qing dynasty when the cult movement coupling with resurgance was at its peak.

Skipping all the legend styff.

What about the story of Jue Yuan meeting up with Bai Yu Feng, and Li Su and his son?

If that is factual, it would have to have happened at the tail end of the Yuan, when Shaolin was at a lowpoint, after the Red Turban invasion, yes?

No, it was rather before the Red Turban incident (1361 CE). It is believed that Bai Yu Feng lived sometime around Jin/Southern Song (1115-1234 CE) and Yuan (1260-1368 CE). So he would have lived during late 1100s to early 1200s which means he would be more or less the same era as Fu Yu. Now, 1258 was the last debate that was presided by Fu Yu. Bai Yu Feng couldn't have been there otherwise there would be some kind of written record by Fu Yu about him. Nothing about Bai's 5 animal or anything Bodhidharma's 18 Luohan hands were ever mentioned in the LHXGDD manuscript or other manuscripts of Shaolin during or close to that period. Conveniently, Bai was said to have been invited to shaolin by Jue yuan who travelled for a period of time. So... timeline wise something is not right.

If he and they re-worked whatever Louhan quan was there at the time, it would follow that this Louhan quan was whatever remained of the forms that Fu Yu collected?

There's no proof nor evidence at this point that form training already existed by that time. Form training might have been a Qing dynasty phenonemon IMHO. Also Luohan Quan couldn't have been created yet at least not by Fu Yu. That's almost an impossibility....

(also can someone please tell of the Wah Quan controversy, that supposedly Bai Yu Feng eased and reintroduced Wah Quan into Shaolin martial arts, he being the librarian at the temple?)

Bai Yu Feng was said to be originally from Shanxi Taiyuan where Hongdong Tongbi (otherwise known as Xi Chang Quan) had a strong following possibly since early Song. He was resided in Luoyang at the time Jue Yuan and Li Shou found him. Jue Yuan was said to have travelled westward from Shaolin into Xian Xi and even Szechuan. Hua Shan being the western mountain of the 5 mountains of China (martial tradition). It's not hard to "imagine" a connection was made in order to claim "Tian Xia Gong Fu Chu Shaolin". Personally, it's questionable that Bai knew Hua Quan.

(Also, can someone help me trace Fantzi being spread in Henan province, by when, by whom, etc.?)[/quote

Yeah, it would be great too.

[quote]I agree the Louhan shares a lot with Fantzi, Fantzi has Louhan forms, even a 32 Tai Tzu Quan form.

The style of Fanzi that I know of don't have 32 Taizu Quan nor Luohan forms. So...

So, pre-song dynasty, what Shaolin had was: whatever loose boxing and grappling methods people picked up and did for exercise and self defense, as necessary. This stuff was just what techniques people picked up here and there, or vistors brought in.

I don't think form training started that early.

Then at start of Song Dynasty, Emperor Chao gives them a gift of his Tai Tzu Chang Quan. His books and notes of his martial art theories and training.

That's another myth. No proof of that in existence.

Then, because of Jin and Mongol invasions, the place is pretty dead for martial arts.

That's quite possible.

Somewhere around 1250 Abbott Fu Yu gathers martial art stuff from various masters, and he makes a book showing the "forms", etc, whatever.
Somewhere in here Louhan Quan is developed.

Where is this book?

Then Shaolin dies out again not too long after, there there is the Red Turban invasion, etc and near end of the Yuan Dynasty
Jue Yuan and friends develop a new system starting from what was left of Luohan and adding in internal MA ideas from Louyang White Horse temple.

Jue Yuan was Jin-Southern Song era which is way before the Red Turban. No evidence of a Luohan Quan system in the confines of Henan Shaolin temple existed prior to Ming dynasty. The earliest possible of anything related to luohan is from a line in a sonnet of Fanziquan that mentioned Iron Luohan. Now the Fanzi style was mentioned in General Qi's work around mid 1500s. We don't know when the sonnet was made. So there's no way to date that precisely.

Then Shaolin martial arts becomes more stable and established during the Ming Dynasty, where many forms and substyles of Shaolin Martial arts developed.

We can only find that General Yu Dayou reintroduced stick and staff fighting method to Henan Shaolin around mid 1500. By 1600, Shaolin had some kind of expensive training program for people to learn their method which again is not exactly what General Yu taught.

Finally, during Qing dynasty various Shaolion styles become standardized there and spread all over China.

Is this rough timeline correct?

We will have to revise quite a bit. :(

How does the Xin Yi Ba fit in?
When was it created? by whom?

Well, that's a recent development and a money grabber if you ask me. ;) So...

Regards

Mantis108

Sal Canzonieri

10-20-2006, 06:09 PM

"It is believed that Bai Yu Feng lived sometime around Jin/Southern Song (1115-1234 CE) and Yuan (1260-1368 CE). So he would have lived during late 1100s to early 1200s which means he would be more or less the same era as Fu Yu. "

That's a big spread of time.

Why couldn't he have lived before Fu Yu? or long after? in that big spread of time.

If Jue Yuan is from Jin-Southern Song era, then this is all before Fu Yu, not after as I had always thought.
So, it is possible that Jue Yuan found not much happening at Shaolin and brought in their own ideas.

Bei Yu Feng being from an area of Shanxi where Hongtong bi was popular is interesting, since there seems to be so much of Tong Bi in shaolin forms today.

As far as the 5 animals thing, there is no need for that story to be part of things. It shouldn't effect wether Bai Yu Feng and Jue Yuan had anything to do with Shaolin arts. There is no need to care about the southern shaolin 5 animals legend to date these people and their actions.
From what I could find, person with the surname of Chao, later Choy/Choi, went from henan to south area and brought his Shaolin martial arts ideas there, during the early Qing dynasty. All the 5 animals stuff comes after this. This person was once an officer in the Ming army, and an uncle to the heir apparent of the Chao family.

There are a few forms from Shaolin that are attributed to Bai Yu Feng, not the 5 animals stuff at all, but a 13 Claws forms (which is very long pile of loose techniques),
and a Xin Yi Quan that he and Jue Yuan made, and a Luohan form and a Hong Quan form that comes from Li Su. These two forms are unlike any other Luohan or Hong Quan forms that Shaolin has.

One thing:

The Chen tai ji Yi lu form is pretty much an extended version of the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan 32 move form (with 54 postures). I have mapped them both out in a one to one correspondance in an upcoming issue of Gene's Kung Fu magazine.
So, there is some real connection to Shaolin and Tai Tzu, maybe they picked it up from the local populace, as Tai Tzu was popular in Henan, as elsewhere; but regardless, the Chen Yi Lu form was developed during the early 1600s, so this
Shaolin Tai Tzu form is logically older than that, plus the same form is also done by other tai tzu lines that are not in henan province, so somebody brought this form into Shaolin in time for Chen family to pick it up along with Hong Quan and Pao Chui forms from Shaolin.

Sal Canzonieri

10-20-2006, 06:33 PM

About the Fan tzi Luohan and tai Tzu forms.

I have a big fat Chuo Jiao Fan Tzi forms book (in Chinese) in my hand right now,
that shows forms from all the different sub styles.
ISBN 7-5009-2366-X

It shows the Khao Zen forms, which it says are actually Luohan Quan postures.

Also, it lists the moves (but no photos) of a form that is part of Cun (wrist) Fan tzi
called Tai Tzu Quan, and it has 32 postures.

ghostexorcist

10-21-2006, 03:33 AM

Can someone translate the following for me?

鸡刀镰 - 属奇门兵械。俗称"梱花腰子"。为心意拳门器械之一。相传为形意拳创始人姬隆豐所创，长二尺六寸余，金属制成，由镰身和镰柄组成，镰身包括鸡嘴、鸡冠、镰刃、镰脊；镰柄有镰格、镰首。技法有钩、拉、帶、挎、掛、啄、纏等，以近战为主。套路有单练和对练。

It’s about the Chicken-Saber Sickle. I just recently created an article for it on wikipedia. I came across this information sometime back while doing research on the connection between Zhou Tong and Xinyi. I found one master whose page commented that Zhou tong taught Yue Fei the Five Animals and thought the spear was the “most divine of all weapons”. However, I can’t use it since the information came from an unpublished interview between the master and his xinyi master. He did point me in the direction of a xinyi book that might hold some of this info.

I know historically this info doesn’t match up with the “Yue Fei Biography”, but I would still like to use it. Thanks in advance to whoever translates the above paragraph.

ghostexorcist

10-23-2006, 11:15 AM

ghostexorcist

10-23-2006, 04:22 PM

I also need the following translated:

如刘殿琛在其所著《形意拳术抉微》中云：“形意拳术一门为最合军用，盖该拳为岳武穆所发明。”然而，多数著作在述及岳飞或者周侗创心意时，均持谨慎态度，冠以“相传”二字。

and

二曰“心意拳为岳飞所创”。此说最早见于文字的是曹继武的“十法摘要”。曹氏云：“惟此六合拳者则出自宋朝岳武穆王。嗣后金元明数代，鲜有其技，至明末清初有蒲东诸冯姬隆风先生……遍访名师，至终南山，得岳武穆王拳经。”戴龙邦承其师曹继武之说，于乾隆十五年（1750）为“六合拳”作序云：“岳飞当童子时，受业于周侗师，精通枪法，以枪为拳，立法以教将佐，名曰意拳，神妙莫测，盖从古未有之技也。”以后，便有了“心意十二形为岳飞被困牛头山时所创”之说。此说顺应了人们对清王朝统治的不满和对民族英雄岳飞的敬仰心理，因而很快地被人们所认定，并广泛地传播开来。

http://www.dlwsw.com/bhtm/ws11.htm

This has to do with Zhou Tong's connection with Xingyi.

Sal Canzonieri

10-23-2006, 08:27 PM

I have heard that Zhou Tong was a Fanzi master. However, I have not been able to find any reputable English pages that actually say this. I can't use info from forum pages. It must be published in a book or in a website that is in someway linked to a noted master or, again, a book.

I am looking for definite info for an article I am doing as well.

It wouldn't be fantzi, of course, because that's what it was called in the 1800s.
In the 1500s it was called Ba Shan Fan.
Before that Ba Fan Shou.

It is pretty much the same thing as Yue Fei style during earlier time periods,
people called Ba Shan Fan "yue fei quan" in some areas.

So, Zhou Tong's art was a forerunner to Ba Shan Fan and then Fantzi.

Someone uncovered some exteremely rare martial arts books from the Sung dynasty recently, it was buried inside a coated animal bladder to keep it safe underground!

It tells the name of a taoist martial artist that one of the Sung emperors called into help train the troops with a systematic martial art.

ghostexorcist

10-24-2006, 03:25 AM

I am looking for definite info for an article I am doing as well.

It wouldn't be fantzi, of course, because that's what it was called in the 1800s.
In the 1500s it was called Ba Shan Fan.
Before that Ba Fan Shou.

It is pretty much the same thing as Yue Fei style during earlier time periods,
people called Ba Shan Fan "yue fei quan" in some areas.

So, Zhou Tong's art was a forerunner to Ba Shan Fan and then Fantzi.

Someone uncovered some exteremely rare martial arts books from the Sung dynasty recently, it was buried inside a coated animal bladder to keep it safe underground!

It tells the name of a taoist martial artist that one of the Sung emperors called into help train the troops with a systematic martial art.

I'm not saying I'm a history expert or anything, but none of the Yue Fei Chronicles I've read ever mention “Shaolin” or any other boxing style in association with Zhou Tong. He is only represented as Yue Fei’s archery teacher. What is your source that Zhou Tong practiced Fanzi. The only place I’ve heard of it is through forum sites.

I have found that neither of the "Yue Fei Biography" from the Yuan Dynasty or the "Speak Yue's Entire Biography" from the Qing Dynasty ever mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin Monk. The last biography was written sometime between the years 1661 - 1735 (as that’s what it says in the introduction). So this could mean Zhou Tong's portrayal as a Shaolin monk didn't start until the mid-late Qing Dynasty. As Shaolin Master had previously said, it is very possible that he was a former military man.

Is your article about Zhou tong or just about martial arts in general? When the time comes, which won’t be for many years, I plan on doing my dissertation on Yue Fei and Zhou Tong. Later, I want to translate Zhou Tong’s wuxia biography into English. I currently have the Chinese reading level of a retarded monkey. So you can see that it will be a while before the book hits the shelf.

Sal Canzonieri

10-24-2006, 08:53 AM

I'm not saying I'm a history expert or anything, but none of the Yue Fei Chronicles I've read ever mention “Shaolin” or any other boxing style in association with Zhou Tong. He is only represented as Yue Fei’s archery teacher. What is your source that Zhou Tong practiced Fanzi. The only place I’ve heard of it is through forum sites.

I have found that neither of the "Yue Fei Biography" from the Yuan Dynasty or the "Speak Yue's Entire Biography" from the Qing Dynasty ever mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin Monk. The last biography was written sometime between the years 1661 - 1735 (as that’s what it says in the introduction). So this could mean Zhou Tong's portrayal as a Shaolin monk didn't start until the mid-late Qing Dynasty. As Shaolin Master had previously said, it is very possible that he was a former military man.

Is your article about Zhou tong or just about martial arts in general? When the time comes, which won’t be for many years, I plan on doing my dissertation on Yue Fei and Zhou Tong. Later, I want to translate Zhou Tong’s wuxia biography into English. I currently have the Chinese reading level of a retarded monkey. So you can see that it will be a while before the book hits the shelf.

My article is about how the evolution of Yue Fei being held as the founder of the various styles and how Fantzi/Chuo Jiao is the root in common with all these styles.

Yeah, I agree, there is nothing but recent legends that say Zhou Tong was from Shaolin. I think that it stems from some old Fantzi forms are Shaolin based, there is a 32 Tai Tzu form, some Luohan forms, etc., and they are attributed to him. Being a military man, he more than likely knew some Shaolin. People were assuming that what he knew came from Shaolin, because Fantzi / Chuo Jiao came from Wen Family system, which is related to tai tzu chang quan system.

The person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s was Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.

Here is what I could find about him:

During the Heavenly Kingdom rebellion (1851-1864) time period, its leader,
Shi Da-Kai (石达开) of Hakka origin, had his troops learn Fantzi/Chuo Jiao.
In Volume 20 of the Unofficial History of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom,
it recounts how Shi's soldiers fought Qing Imperial troops using the basic jade ring and mandarin duck kicking skills of Chuo Jiao taught by their leader. His troops were able to successfully beat back the Imperialist troops when they were in close range with hand to hand combat (until the Manchu wised up and turned the tables by attacking with long range weapons first).

Another military commander from the TaiPing Heavenly Kingdom Rebellion,
Zhao Canyi (赵灿益) sometimes referred to as Feng Keshan or Zhao Laocan also
practiced Fantzi and Chuo Jiao in addition to many other military arts. After the
TaiPing army failed to conquer the city of Tianjin, Zhao and members of his
army resided in Raoyang County, Hebei province.

In Raoyang, Zhao Canyi taught many disciples strongly establishing Chuo Jiao in the area of Hebei. Zhao Canyi was originally
from Hua County in Henan province. He studied with Tang Heng Lao in Zhu
Zhao Cun (likely to have been “Meihuazhuang”, another ancient martial art
that the Wen/Wu nomenclature possibly originated). Later many great masters
including Wang Xian from Ji Ning county in Shandong taught him various
advanced boxing skills.

After the rebellion, Zhao Canyi became a wanderer and travelled from Dezhou
county in Shandong province to Hua county in Henan province. He changed his
names many times and as a result was known in each area often by a different
name. Only his closest disciples would know his actual name. In Raoyang, he
first taught Huaquan (Marvellous Boxing) in 12 routines in the Southern
villages. In the Northern villages, he taught Jinggang Jia (Jingang frames)
in 8 routines and Jing Gang Strikes in 8 routines. In Shen county he taught
Shaolin Boxing - Erlang quan and Bafan shou (which is called Fantzi now).
Later, Zhao Canyi spent many years in Hebei teaching in different areas, and
the variations to Fantzi/Chuojiao are numerous. Fundamentally, however they
have all become similar in concept and essence whilst the structure and
organization of the systems contents may differ. There are 54 Empty Hand
forms in Zhao Family Chuojiao

Chuo Jiao / Fan tzi (Bafan Shou) spread in areas of Henan province. By
then, the misinformation / legend that Yue Fei was the founder of this
martial art (and hence all the martial arts that were related to this style,
such as Xiang Xing Boxing, spear methods, and Six Harmony Boxing) was spread
throughout Hebei, Henan, and many other provinces. After retiring, Zhao
Guanyi returned to his county Gao Yang and only passed the art to his sons
and their family retaining all original teachings, being supplemented later
by his descendents and the boxing styles from neighbouring villages.

ghostexorcist

10-24-2006, 09:04 PM

My article is about how the evolution of Yue Fei being held as the founder of the various styles and how Fantzi/Chuo Jiao is the root in common with all these styles.

Yeah, I agree, there is nothing but recent legends that say Zhou Tong was from Shaolin. I think that it stems from some old Fantzi forms are Shaolin based, there is a 32 Tai Tzu form, some Luohan forms, etc., and they are attributed to him. Being a military man, he more than likely knew some Shaolin. People were assuming that what he knew came from Shaolin, because Fantzi / Chuo Jiao came from Wen Family system, which is related to tai tzu chang quan system.

The person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s was Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.

Here is what I could find about him:

During the Heavenly Kingdom rebellion (1851-1864) time period, its leader,
Shi Da-Kai (石达开) of Hakka origin, had his troops learn Fantzi/Chuo Jiao.
In Volume 20 of the Unofficial History of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom,
it recounts how Shi's soldiers fought Qing Imperial troops using the basic jade ring and mandarin duck kicking skills of Chuo Jiao taught by their leader. His troops were able to successfully beat back the Imperialist troops when they were in close range with hand to hand combat (until the Manchu wised up and turned the tables by attacking with long range weapons first).

Another military commander from the TaiPing Heavenly Kingdom Rebellion,
Zhao Canyi (赵灿益) sometimes referred to as Feng Keshan or Zhao Laocan also
practiced Fantzi and Chuo Jiao in addition to many other military arts. After the
TaiPing army failed to conquer the city of Tianjin, Zhao and members of his
army resided in Raoyang County, Hebei province.

In Raoyang, Zhao Canyi taught many disciples strongly establishing Chuo Jiao in the area of Hebei. Zhao Canyi was originally
from Hua County in Henan province. He studied with Tang Heng Lao in Zhu
Zhao Cun (likely to have been “Meihuazhuang”, another ancient martial art
that the Wen/Wu nomenclature possibly originated). Later many great masters
including Wang Xian from Ji Ning county in Shandong taught him various
advanced boxing skills.

After the rebellion, Zhao Canyi became a wanderer and travelled from Dezhou
county in Shandong province to Hua county in Henan province. He changed his
names many times and as a result was known in each area often by a different
name. Only his closest disciples would know his actual name. In Raoyang, he
first taught Huaquan (Marvellous Boxing) in 12 routines in the Southern
villages. In the Northern villages, he taught Jinggang Jia (Jingang frames)
in 8 routines and Jing Gang Strikes in 8 routines. In Shen county he taught
Shaolin Boxing - Erlang quan and Bafan shou (which is called Fantzi now).
Later, Zhao Canyi spent many years in Hebei teaching in different areas, and
the variations to Fantzi/Chuojiao are numerous. Fundamentally, however they
have all become similar in concept and essence whilst the structure and
organization of the systems contents may differ. There are 54 Empty Hand
forms in Zhao Family Chuojiao

Chuo Jiao / Fan tzi (Bafan Shou) spread in areas of Henan province. By
then, the misinformation / legend that Yue Fei was the founder of this
martial art (and hence all the martial arts that were related to this style,
such as Xiang Xing Boxing, spear methods, and Six Harmony Boxing) was spread
throughout Hebei, Henan, and many other provinces. After retiring, Zhao
Guanyi returned to his county Gao Yang and only passed the art to his sons
and their family retaining all original teachings, being supplemented later
by his descendents and the boxing styles from neighbouring villages.

Thanks. That was very enlightening. I have just added some more xingyi info in the "links to other styles" section of the Zhou Tong article. One paragraph comes from a xingyi manual written by Dai Longbang in either 1750 or 1786 (I have two sources with conflicting dates).

ghostexorcist

10-25-2006, 01:09 AM

I have found that neither of the "Yue Fei Biography" from the Yuan Dynasty or the "Speak Yue's Entire Biography" from the Qing Dynasty ever mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin Monk. The last biography was written sometime between the years 1661 - 1735 (as that’s what it says in the introduction). So this could mean Zhou Tong's portrayal as a Shaolin monk didn't start until the mid-late Qing Dynasty. As Shaolin Master had previously said, it is very possible that he was a former military man.

I have found the Liùhéquán Xù (六合拳序 – “Preface to Six Harmonies Boxing”) written by Xingyi Master Dai Longbang (戴龙邦) in 1750 doesn’t mention Zhou Tong in reference to Shaolin either. This is all it says:

“岳飞当童子时，受业于周侗师，精通枪法，以枪为拳，立法以教将佐，名曰意拳”

ghostexorcist

10-25-2006, 07:27 PM

I need the following translated as well:

《秘本虎啸金钟罩真传》—为民国19年12月由国民政府直属国立南京中央国信馆所编辑出版并由上海大东书局有限公司负责发行的一套3册（分上、中、下3册）的石印版教科书；其源出中央国术馆所征集的明代宣德2年湖北均州武当山真庆宫道长、大和门祖师邓坤伦老先生手抄孤本—《大宋圈内第一高手周侗真传虎啸金钟罩服气炼形秘术》。民国18年秋，中央国术馆执行董事兼顾问李松如（公元1888－1988年）先生，本着一颗热爱民族、弘扬武术的热心，无偿捐出家父李德贵（公元1846－1935年）大将军所珍藏的绝世孤本即《大宋圈内第一高手周侗真传虎啸金钟罩服气炼形秘术》。而中央国术馆所出版的《秘本虎啸金钟罩真传》一书，正是根据明代抄本所摘录、编辑的。

http://www.cn-wushuschool.com/page13.htm

《秘本桶子炼丹图说》—为大明宣德元年（公元1426年）中国道教发源地湖北均州武当山真庆宫道长邓坤伦老先生根据宋时期的武术大家周侗所遗留的绝世孤本《桶子炼丹》总结并归纳、整理而成的一套内家功夫。据民国时期的国民政府直属国立南京中央国术馆教务处、编审处所编辑并由上海武侠社于民国19年正式出版的《桶子功真传》（中央国述馆一等教习罗玉演示、编审处首席编审员金一明撰文、顾问李松如审定）一书中记载：“桶子炼丹，源出宋崇宁年间武术大家周侗。其毕生讲武，收学生近千人，最得意者当推林冲、鲁达、岳鹏举、武钟（即武松）等10余人。然林冲独得周师雁门神枪（又名断门五虎枪等）、鲁达得醉拳、岳鹏举得八段锦、武钟得血溅刀。另林、鲁、岳、武四人皆得桶子炼丹矣。”“本馆执行董事兼顾问李君松如，自幼兼承家传，师出其父前清光绪年两江总督署大将军李德贵，独得桶子炼丹三十六阴阳丸。今见国府大力介导武术，则一改古训愿将桶子功部

http://www.cn-wushuschool.com/page15.htm

These are about ancient manuals and Zhou Tong's supposed connection to Wudang Golden Bell Qigong.

I would LOVE to speak with Master Fan Keping to see how Zhou Tong became associated with this style!!! There are even VCD's available about these styles and all of them say they come from Zhou Tong!

Sal Canzonieri

10-27-2006, 01:45 PM

ABout Fanzi Quan and Shaolin Luohan connection:

Well, upon a deeper investigation of postures and movements between the two systems.

I have to say, there are MANY exact same postures with the exact same names for the postures!

So, what gives? Who came first?

I had thought that the 144 posture/ 8 sections 18 Luohan Hands form had many postures the same as in Ba Gua.
So, I was wondering Dong Hai Quan perhaps had some exposure to these 18 Luohan forms.

Then, I re-read the Professor's thesis that talks about Dong Hai Quan practicing Fa Shan Fan (fanzi quan) in his youth and that many postures were the same, etc., etc.

Well, these same postures are in Luohan, Fanzi, and Ba Gua.

So, what going on here?

What comes first? The Luohan or the Fanzi forms?

They even have the same names for postures, such as:
Both Hands Push Open the Windows.

Many of these postures are unique to Fanzi Quan and to Luohan only
(except the Yue Jia Quan styles, they share a lot of moves from Fanzi Quan
and thus this Luohan)

This is most likely why people in past times (in folklore or in fact) said that fanzi quan was derived from Shaolin or that Zhou Tong, as Fanzi (Ba Shan Fan) master learned from Shaolin.

Perhaps it was the other way around, this stuff was taught to Shaolin, via Zhou Tong or others, as some oral transmissions say instead.

Most famous Fanzi master from 1800s, Zhou Canyi knew and taught BOTH Fanzi Quan AND Shaolin forms to people. Maybe he is the source of the folklore linking Shaolin and Fanzi Quan via Zhou Tong?

Looking at the various Fanzi quan systems around. There are some older lines that have forms that are Luohan forms (called Khao Zen forms), and a 32 posture Tai Tzu form too (which is at Shaolin).

DOES ANYONE have ANY kind of information that can shed some light on this?
Like when? where? Who? What? How?
Anything!

thanks!

Sal Canzonieri

10-30-2006, 10:22 AM

bumping this thread up.

ghostexorcist

11-11-2006, 05:19 PM

The person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s was Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.

I can't say I've ever read anything about Fanzi that mentions Zhou Tong being a Shaolin monk or him in association with that style besides Sal Canzonieri’s research. I think this might come from Zhou Tong’s connection with Chuo Jiao, which is stated in several 20th century Chuo Jiao books that he learned this style from “Deng Liang”. This style, combined with Fanzi (Chuojiaofanzi boxing) was spread by Zhao Canyi as stated by Sal. So there is the connection. But the historical “Yue Fei Biography” does not mention any kind of martial arts in reference to Zhou Tong. He is only represented as an archer.

I’m by no means knocking Sal’s research. He has a behavioral science degree (with triple majors), so he is FAR MORE qualified than I am currently to map the anthropological connections between styles, but he has himself asked people to provide him with any information that would help support his theories.

Most famous Fanzi master from 1800s, Zhou Canyi knew and taught BOTH Fanzi Quan AND Shaolin forms to people. Maybe he is the source of the folklore linking Shaolin and Fanzi Quan via Zhou Tong?

Looking at the various Fanzi quan systems around. There are some older lines that have forms that are Luohan forms (called Khao Zen forms), and a 32 posture Tai Tzu form too (which is at Shaolin).

DOES ANYONE have ANY kind of information that can shed some light on this?
Like when? where? Who? What? How?
Anything!

The only style I’ve seen that OPENLY says Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk is “Eagle Claw”. I personally think this legend came about because Zhou Tong was the teacher of Yue Fei, who has many Shaolin-based martial arts styles attributed to him. The birth of the legend might have gone something like this: “Yue Fei created [whatever] style, which is practiced by Shaolin. Yue Fei learned from Zhou Tong, so Zhou Tong must have learned these skills from Shaolin and passed them onto Yue Fei. Therefore, Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk.” Of course this is nothing but pure speculation. But I’m sure you guys can see where I’m coming from.

As I recently wrote Sal in a PM, I have been able to push the time line up to the mid 19th century in reference to the birth of the legend that Zhou Tong was a Shaolin Monk. I have spoken with Honorable Sir T.L. Yang on several occasions (again this morning at 5 am) and he tells me, just as it says in his English translation of the “Speak Yue’s Entire Biography” (A.k.a. “General Yue Fei”), that he combined the first chapters of two different 80 chapter editions to create the 79 chapter edition that he translated. The second 80 chapter version was published sometime during the reign of Qing Dynasty Emperor Tongzi (r. 1861-1875). With the exception of extra supernatural elements, this version is the same as the first edition. This later edition does not mention Zhou Tong as a Shaolin monk either. I believe the legend was born in the late Qing Dynasty.

In fact, Honorable Sir T.L. Yang even comments in the introduction of this translation:

The work is a historical novel in form, but it is in fact based almost mainly on legends which were current amongst the common people for centuries.

So if the legend of Zhou Tong being a Shaolin monk had been around during this time, it would have been added into the book. Plus, if it was true, it would have been added to Yue Fei's Yuan Dynasty biography since the Mongols are the ones who reopened the Shaolin monastery and made Fuyu its abbot in the mid 1200's. Thoughts?

Sal Canzonieri

11-12-2006, 10:57 AM

My research? I've not been able to find much info on Zhou Tong just as much as the next guy. All legends so far.

The eagle claw people got their Zhou Tong "legend" from the Liu De Kan, who practiced 6 harmony style. He got it from Yue Fei Jia Quan practioners.
So, it all comes full circle.

Who said it first?

You have Yue Fei Jia Quan legends saying he learned from Zhou Tong.
When?

You have Fanzi Quan by way of the Taiping Rebellion generals saying Zhou Tong was the source of their style. After 1650s.

ghostexorcist

11-12-2006, 01:09 PM

My research?

The only times I’ve read anything that associated Zhou Tong with Fanzi is from your research article (which I hope is coming along well) and various posts on this site. For instance:

Also, Yue family martial art style, which is recognized as a root to Dai family Xin Yi and Henan Xin Yi styles, is atributed to come from Yue Fei's teacher, who was Zhou Dong, who taught/practiced Shaolin (Lohan) and FanTzi (when it was called Ba Shan Fan).
…
Supposedly Ba Shan Fan comes from a Monk named Zhou Tong, who if he studied Shaolin from the early Song Dynasty time period, most have learned Lohan and 6 harmony boxing. He also most likely had learned Tong Bei since it was very common at the time he was around.(Link (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?referrerid=14902&t=39101))

Are you sure that your are not mixing the Eagle Claw myth about Zhou Tong being a monk (which has become so widely spread that it is no longer associated with just Eagle claw, but accepted as fact on a grand scale by all styles attributed to him via Yue Fei) with the legend that Zhou Tong learned Chuojiao from Deng Liang and then connecting it to Fanzi via its association with Chuojiao, Chuojiao Fanzi Boxing and Chuojiao’s usage during the Taiping Rebellion? Please forgive my tone if it seems negative, but you have to understand that I have not been able to find this anywhere besides your posts. I’m serious, type in Zhou Tong and Fanzi or Bashanfan into an internet search engine and the only results that come up are your posts and the posts I and a few others have made in the past regarding your material.

The eagle claw people got their Zhou Tong "legend" from the Liu De Kan, who practiced 6 harmony style. He got it from Yue Fei Jia Quan practioners.

Are you “stating” or “speculating” this to be true? Do you have a supporting source or is it based upon connective histories from your research?

You have Yue Fei Jia Quan legends saying he learned from Zhou Tong. When?
…
You have Fanzi Quan by way of the Taiping Rebellion generals saying Zhou
Tong was the source of their style. After 1650s.

Yes, history says he was Yue Fei’s teacher, so he will be listed as such. But do any of these legends, besides those from eagle claw, say he was a Shaolin Monk? That is what I am most interested in at the moment. Can you show me an actual scholarly source (no forums) that says Fanzi was created by Zhou Tong that is not your own work?

Another thing I recently became obsessed with is the exact time frame when Wu Song, Lin Chong, and Lu Junyi became associated as Zhou Tong’s students. The fictional “Speak Yue’s Entire Biography” (a.k.a. General Yue Fei) mentions Lin Chong and Lu Junyi as his students, so by the 17th, 18th or 19th century (depending on which version Hon. Sir T.L. Yang used to translate that portion of the novel) this connection had already been made. But this might have come about because the "Water Margin" (a.k.a. All men are brothers/Outlaws of the marsh) was a popular novel at the time. Maybe Qian Cai, the original author, read it and included them into his tale. Who knows.

ghostexorcist

11-13-2006, 01:14 PM

I must admit that I have searched the Chinese net and found (very scant) material referring to Zhou Tong as the founder of Fanzi. However, most of this material comes from forums. (I couldn’t find a single online book or martial arts history page that states this.) I'm not saying factual information can't be gleamed from forums, But they offer no supporting evidence of where they found this information. One forum page about Fanzi even referred to Zhou Tong as an army officer, but, again, no supporting evidence. Plus, most of the material seems to be assumptions. They talk about how Yue Fei is considered the founder of Fanzi but that Zhou Tong is the true first line. This just sounds like they are using my little formula from above:

Yue Fei created [whatever] style, which is practiced by Shaolin. Yue Fei learned from Zhou Tong, so Zhou Tong must have learned these skills from Shaolin and passed them onto Yue Fei. Therefore, Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk.”

This is what the “Ballad of Fanzi” says:

Wu Mu [Yue Fei] has passed down the Fanzi Quan which has mystery in its straightforward movements.

It doesn’t say anything about Zhou Tong. However, someone could easily assume, since it says “Wu Mu has passed down”, that Yue Fei learned this from Zhou Tong.

I even tried searching the Chinese net for Zhou Tong and Bashanfan (Fanzi’s ancient name) and found even less material. But even if there is a martial arts page or book with this info, again, all I’m interested in is if it says he was a Shaolin Monk.

If a date could be put to any scholarly material that refers to Yue Fei as the founder of Fanzi, then we might be able to map when Zhou Tong became associated as its founder. This could have come from Eagle Claw’s connection to the style. It might have been that since Fanzi and Eagle Claw were mixed to create Fanzi Ying Jow pai or Northern Eagle Claw, proponents of Fanzi began to look at Eagle Claw’s founder as their own. And then later, after the “Ballad of Wumu” was written (which clearly does not mention Zhou Tong), they thought “hey, Yue Fei learned from Zhou Tong, so Zhou Tong must have created both of these styles.”

I also must admit that there is the possibility that Yue Fei did NOT create Eagle Claw. This style is not mentioned in his Yuan Dynasty biography (1345) or his fictional Qing Dynasty biography (1661-1735)

mantis108

11-13-2006, 02:39 PM

穆武(洛串)留下翻子拳﹔直出直入妙含玄
匆進匆退應機變﹔亦剛亦柔巧連環
動如迅雷難掩耳﹔靜如太岳穩如山
虛虛實實難招架﹔指上打下手飛翻
旱地行舟是步法﹔一步三拳是根源
車輪功練鐵羅漢﹔鐵臂功深無遮攔
三感五節是要訣﹔周身氣力發涌泉
內有七拳成訣技﹔直劈橫崩摔捋纏
直拳打法最簡便﹔不招不架直向前
泰山壓頂用猛劈﹔連劈帶挑是攔截
橫能破豎豎破橫﹔橫沖直入暗舒臂
崩拳就是挑打式﹔連挑帶砸防護嚴
摔拳本是翻拳變﹔上提下滾左右旋
捋手本是順手帶﹔一收一放緊相連
纏法要是纏化勁﹔纏化用意即粘連
對敵應知穩淮狠﹔心慌意亂敗之源
最忌一發即深入﹔出手等手非真傳
拳打架式招打快﹔練到無拳是真拳

The name in the bracket is an unknown person other than Yue Fei. This is from a Fanzi line that is in the Beijing area which had relation with Yihequan once upon a time. Also the version that I got with Yue Fei's posthumosus title has his title's 2 characters reversed. Anyway the point is not all Fanzi has Yue Fei as the progenitor.

Mantis108

ghostexorcist

11-13-2006, 02:44 PM

ngokfei

11-13-2006, 06:50 PM

mantis108

11-13-2006, 08:14 PM

Regarding the date of this ballad, it's almost impossible to date it simply because it is verbally passed down from generation to generation. Having said that there are elements that could give some clues to a possible range of date.

First the mentioning of the posthumous title of Yue Fei (1103-1142 CE) points towards at least the Southern Song Era.

Secondly, there are a few phases and usage of terms in the ballad that can be found in General Yu Dayou's Classic of Sword (Jian Jing 1557 CE) and General Qi Jiguang's New Book of Records of Efficacy (Jixiao Xinshu) of General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587 CE). Both Generals used Fanziquan in training their troops.

Now the question is "does this ballard exist before these Generals and they adopted the concepts from the ballad in their writings or the ballad is a work absorbing these great men's writings"?

If the first case is true then the range of date of the ballad would be somewhere between Southern Song (possibly even older) to sometime late 1500s.

Personally, I believe it's the latter. For the reason that Classic of Sword has nothing to do with Fanzi as far as I am aware but element from the Classic of Sword, which also appeared in the New Book of Records of Efficacy, is found in the ballad. We are quite certain with the idea that hand to hand combat training for the troops derived from weapon training not the other way around in TCMA. The chance of hand to hand combat inspires weapon method manuscript is quite remote. In this case the ballad would be a product of late Ming and Qing dynasty (most likely Qing).

Just a thought

Mantis108

ghostexorcist

11-14-2006, 01:43 PM

If the first case is true then the range of date of the ballad would be somewhere between Southern Song (possibly even older) to sometime late 1500s.

Personally, I believe it's the latter. For the reason that Classic of Sword has nothing to do with Fanzi as far as I am aware but element from the Classic of Sword, which also appeared in the New Book of Records of Efficacy, is found in the ballad. We are quite certain with the idea that hand to hand combat training for the troops derived from weapon training not the other way around in TCMA. The chance of hand to hand combat inspires weapon method manuscript is quite remote. In this case the ballad would be a product of late Ming and Qing dynasty (most likely Qing).

Mantis108

Thankyou. That's what I thought. It seems that all of the legends regarding Shaolin monks and the attribution of newer styles to ancient persons all developed during the Ming and especially the Qing Dynasties.

ghostexorcist

11-14-2006, 02:33 PM

The only mention I've seen of eagle claw to Yue Fei is that Li Quan Seng/Lai Chin was a monk who did Fanziquan and learned skills that other monks were performing who gave credit to Yue Fei.

I'd have to look up in my notes to the oldest reference to this.

Some versions have Li Quan Seng as a religous order/group and not an individual.

I would love to see that material.

I'm beginning to wonder if Yue Fei actually created any martial arts at all. This is an important issue to me, as I have stated before that I am writing a book about an elderly man that once served under Yue Fei in this youth. I know he didn't create Xinyi Liuhe boxing, Fanzi and eagle claw is pretty much out the door, so what's left? If these styles were so important, they would have been listed in his Yuan Dynasty biography and the various wuxia fictions written during the Qing.

The history records only mention him being a d*mn fine archer, along with Zhou Tong. That's it! No spear, no kung fu, nothing. The only mentions of his spear prowess that I’ve seen come from Qing dynasty references. (Thanks to some of the folks at the China History Forum for helping me uncover some of this stuff). I believe it came from the “Tanyin County Gazette” (which is where Yue Fei was born). It just says that Yue Fei learned spear from a Mr. Chen Guang before his “Ji Guan” period (before he was 20) and he later took Zhou Tong as his teacher. Historically, this is erroneous. Chen Guang is not mentioned in Yue Fei’s Yuan Dynsty biography. Hell, according to this history, even his father survives the yellow river flood! I bet there aren’t a lot of people out there that know that.

I'm just thinking about writing his soldiers learned Shuai Jiao throwing, which is pretty much standard military hand-to-hand combat training, besides weapons. Besides, these various “punching” styles are not effective against soldiers wearing armor. Only weapons and grappling would have been their main modes of offense and defense.

Anyway, I know that Zhou Tong adopting Yue Fei (like it says in his wuxia fiction) is historically bogus, but I like the idea. According to the real history (or that presented in the Yuan Dynasty biography), Yue Fei’s family were poor tenant formers. After the flood destroyed much of their property, Yue Fei was forced to help his father, Yue Huo, toil in the fields. This manual labor from an early age supposedly gave him “supernatural strength” (which is probably an exaggeration for a strong legendary figure). --

Before I go any further, I have heard of how, in ancient China, extremely poor parents gave their children up for adoption to improve their social status. If Yue Fei became Zhou Tong’s adopted son, he would go from the farmer – warrior class. --

I’ll make it that Yue Fei becomes Zhou tong’s adopted son and learns various military skills from him besides archery. Even the history states that Yue Fei offered sacrifices at Zhou Tong’s grave after his death. So he must have been a very important person to him.

B.Tunks

06-20-2007, 03:01 AM

Shaolin Master

06-20-2007, 08:14 AM

Hi All,

Small issue that sonnet is written in two manners.

One must be very careful. 穆武 (or 武穆) and everyone should know that Yuefei was referred to as 岳武穆 )Yue Wumu). So therefore it does not really represent anything to the contrary.

The use of 洛串, actually refers to 赵洛串 (Zhao Luochuan). Now with this it must also be weary as it was another of the chuojiao/fanzi based parts as related to Zhao Canyi. These would reference a much later generation to Yuefei anyways.

Thirdly, that sonnet is actually from Dongbei Fanzi which is modern Fanzi. It was written possibly by Yu Boqian, the key academic to all the Dongbei Fanzi things and which is not long ago at all. You can tell by its features and style not too old, not classical.

In respect to Fanziquan, the distinction between regional/rural Hebei old Fanziquan, what we refer to as Bafanmen and that of the re-developed Dongbei Fanziquan. which do differ in some aspects.

The Xinyi reference actually when taken in context to Hebei/Shaanxi (i.e. Li Luoneng thereafter) is not too inaccurate as recent understanding is that the mother of the method within is actually Bafan anyways. Thus the Santi, the mods to the elements etc. In fact it is the Jixing Siba which was XYLH/Dai influenced etc... the mix has conceptually changed the origin. The Yingzhao (Eagle Claw) reference is again basically Ba Fan Shou (basic part of Fanzi or Bafanmen) is the basis and the 36 locks are the other, then extended over and created by the founders.....

Note that this does not suggest whether the legends are accurate or not but rather to be careful in dismissing too quickly.

Kind Regards
SM

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