Sei Ping Ma

[The Xia]

I was wondering what people feel about horse stance training. What has it given you?

I found this article. I feel it does a good job of summarizing the benefits. http://www.hungkuen.net/training-stancetraining.htm

[Wu-Tan-Nan]

Im a noob at Mabu training, but i can after only some months feel i have a much stronger stance.
I like it!

[qiphlow]

as part of my taijiquan, i do some yiquan martial stance work, some standing meditation, and also i will take postures from the form and do stance training with them. by no means do i have the time or the inclination to hold these postures for hours upon hours (maybe 1-2 minutes per posture at most, each leg); however, even this little bit of stance work helps tremendously with overall body alignment while doing forms, with feeling grounded, and with leg strength and muscle endurance. i will, from time to time, do some sei ping ma work, but it's not my favorite. i think that anyone can find a way within their chosen discipline to do some kind of still posture training or stance training. a liitle bit can go a long way toward improving your gongfu.

[yutyeesam]

Sei ping ma training was fine. My first gung-fu teacher made me hold it for 30 min every day. Definitely got some good strength training out of it. But when I learned how to sink into my Sei Ping Ma while executing a hand technique, and how to CORRECTLY transition to other stances to maximize power generation from my CLF teachers is when my skill hit a new level.

[SevenStar]

plenty of muscular endurance. Not much in the way of strength, tho.

[Golden Arms]

If you say so Sevenstar. I would say structural strength = strength as well. Plus for those of us with naturally strong legs, that time under tension causes quite a bit of muscle growth and recruitment. If you want strong structure in your movements, shouldnt you be doing like the MMA creed, and training as close to use as possible? Squats are great for wrestling cause its a similar movement, they really dont on their own have much to do with San Ti, Sei Ping Ma, etc usage in a fight.

[The Xia]

There is a ton of stuff available in stancework. You can simply hold a stance, switche, throw strikes, use weights, etc. Personally, I have found that gym equipment weightlifting (I can’t think of any other term) is unnecessary if you do a lot of stance training.

[ryan_sn]

I stance train almost everyday aside from in class. In class we hold for about 15 minutes but the legs are worked throughout. At home I usually hold for a bit less. I'm probably goingto get some curled weights to attach to my legs.

[SevenStar]

If you say so Sevenstar. I would say structural strength = strength as well. Plus for those of us with naturally strong legs, that time under tension causes quite a bit of muscle growth and recruitment. If you want strong structure in your movements, shouldnt you be doing like the MMA creed, and training as close to use as possible? Squats are great for wrestling cause its a similar movement, they really dont on their own have much to do with San Ti, Sei Ping Ma, etc usage in a fight.

you don't hold a static horse in a fight - whatever small structural strength gain you have wouldn't be of serious benefit in an altercation or competition. If it was, judoka would do stance training - and we don't. you gain the same integrity from repetition of throws, I'm sure.

In any event though, ANY prolonged exercise stops becoming a strength builder and enters the realm of endurance. pushups, high reps with weights, etc. they are for endurance building, not strength. stance training is no different. Once you are holding a horse stance for more than a couple of minutes, you are losing the strength building benefit. even isometric training is done in short bursts, not prolonged time periods.

muscle growth comes from placing a load on the muscles that they aren't used to. Muscles are lazy - they won't adapt and grow stronger unless you make them. I squat 450. The longest I've ever held horse is like 10 mins. Guys I know who hold it for 30 have much weaker legs than I do. Why? it's not a strength builder. They have greater leg endurance than I do.

I'm not sure why you mentioned squats, but yes, they are sports specific. They aren't major strength builders either, though.

[SevenStar]

There is a ton of stuff available in stancework. You can simply hold a stance, switche, throw strikes, use weights, etc. Personally, I have found that gym equipment weightlifting (I can’t think of any other term) is unnecessary if you do a lot of stance training.


depends on what your goal is. Ideally, I'd mix both types - weight and bodyweight. For pure strength, you can't beat weights. bodyweight training is great for endurance and explosive strength. I would prefer moving stance training or squats to static stance training though, as with static training, you aren't building strength or endurance throughout a full range of motion, only in the position it's being held and a few degrees beyond.

[The Xia]

I discovered this when I first started lifting weights. I did a full weight lifting program. I found that everything had its benefits and was challenging except for some of the leg weight exercises. I was doing heavy weights for the legs with little effort. I attributed this to static and moving stance training, kicks, and walking/jogging/running. I decided to continue with these things and not include leg weight machines.

[SevenStar]

In all honesty, I doubt it was that. it's genetic. I can do ANYTHING with my lower body - I yoke carry 650, headed for 500 in squat... anything strengthwise involving the lower body is easy for me. However, my bench press, for example, sucks in comparison. walking and jogging definitely aren't strength builders. Ever notice the pencil legs on a distance runner? sprinters are the ones with strong legs.

[The Xia]

That thought has crossed my mind. Naturally, I am inclined for bulk muscle. However, I will tell you that before I started Kung Fu my legs had little definition.

[SevenStar]

that has nothing to do with it. definition is only two things combined:

1. lowered body fat %
2. residual tension in a relaxed muscle

[The Xia]

residual tension in a relaxed muscle
Can you explain that more?

[SevenStar]

sure. A "toned" muscle is really nothing more than a muscle that is always flexed to some extent - a perpetual state of tension. This comes from constant training of the muscle.

[The Xia]

Thanks. So if muscle definition is an indication of constant training, then shouldn't definition be an indication of strength since constant training develops strength?

[SevenStar]

no. training produces lots of effects, depending on the goal - strength, endurance, explosiveness, speed... Also, don't forget the other part I mentioned - low body fat. there are crackheads downtown where I bounce that are cut. They don't lift weights, but they are so skinny that you can see the muscle striations. Also, you have bigger guys who are very strong with no definition, for the opposite reason - higher bodyfat %.

[The Xia]

there are crackheads downtown where I bounce that are cut. They don't lift weights, but they are so skinny that you can see the muscle striations.
I can tell the difference between those who are toned vs. starving. It's like comparing Bruce Lee to an anorexic.

Also, you have bigger guys who are very strong with no definition, for the opposite reason - higher bodyfat %.
I agree with this.

[SevenStar]

I can tell the difference between those who are toned vs. starving. It's like comparing Bruce Lee to an anorexic.

sure you can, but it illustrates my point - when it comes to definition, diet (or in the crackhead's case, lack thereof) is the most powerful factor when it comes to definition. You can't have a high bodyfat % and still be cut, despite how strong you are.

[The Xia]

sure you can, but it illustrates my point - when it comes to definition, diet (or in the crackhead's case, lack thereof) is the most powerful factor when it comes to definition. You can't have a high bodyfat % and still be cut, despite how strong you are.
See, when I see emaciated people I see skin and bones, not definition. As for having high body fat and not being cut, I think it gets a little more complex. Ever see someone with huge chiseled arms and a big gut? I have. Fat build up varies from person to person.

[jmd161]

ANY prolonged exercise stops becoming a strength builder and enters the realm of endurance.


I disagree with that statement and have seen proof with my own eyes to prove otherwise. My sifu has a muscle in his leg that not even top body buliders have. It has come directly from him training horse stance for hrs on end. I myself tore up my knee many yrs ago and the surgery i had on it was only 50/50 on it not popping out of place. I use to have so many problems with the knee, it would just give out on me at anytime. After my first few months of training "PROPER" horse stance with my sifu, I've never had ANYMORE problems with my knee.


jeff:)

[Golden Arms]

Seven, I dont disagree with what you said, you are just choosy in what you address in your replies. Structure IS strength, just a different kind, and it is used all the time in fighting depending on your style...structure is the shape of the arm of a boxers punches as they land, the legs of a hung player as they disrupt legs, etc, and that is exactly what you are training with proper stance training. There have been several successful boxing coaches through history that have also mentioned for instance that striking power isnt really affected by weight training at all. I think that is the problem is when people talk strength they often are just referring to what is studied generally, mostly sports stuff, explosive power etc. Structure is what makes it possible for a 150lb man to tear right through the strength of a 240 lb, weight lifting guy. I have seen and experienced this on myself and against others first hand.

[Fat Cat]

I disagree with that statement and have seen proof with my own eyes to prove otherwise. My sifu has a muscle in his leg that not even top body buliders have. It has come directly from him training horse stance for hrs on end. I myself tore up my knee many yrs ago and the surgery i had on it was only 50/50 on it not popping out of place. I use to have so many problems with the knee, it would just give out on me at anytime. After my first few months of training "PROPER" horse stance with my sifu, I've never had ANYMORE problems with my knee.


jeff:)

Muscle size is not a good indicator of strength. Strength can only be defined by a formula, as the capacity to perform work against some form of resistance. Even if your sifu had the world's largest quadriceps or vastus medialis, it would not prove that endurance training (like stance holding, past a certain point) builds strength. Strength and endurance exist at opposite ends of a continuum.

[SevenStar]

See, when I see emaciated people I see skin and bones, not definition. As for having high body fat and not being cut, I think it gets a little more complex. Ever see someone with huge chiseled arms and a big gut? I have. Fat build up varies from person to person.


that's just genetics. that and lack of cardio work. Many people lift weights and do no cardio. When males eat, fat tends to go straight to the waist. For women, it's the tricep area. Consequently, it's not uncommon to see a guy with cut arms and a gut. It's just a sign that he's lifting and not doing cardio - a bodyfat issue.

[SevenStar]

I disagree with that statement and have seen proof with my own eyes to prove otherwise. My sifu has a muscle in his leg that not even top body buliders have. It has come directly from him training horse stance for hrs on end. I myself tore up my knee many yrs ago and the surgery i had on it was only 50/50 on it not popping out of place. I use to have so many problems with the knee, it would just give out on me at anytime. After my first few months of training "PROPER" horse stance with my sifu, I've never had ANYMORE problems with my knee.


jeff:)

your knee problem was likely a tendon issue, not muscle, correct? as for your sifu, as fat cat said, size is not necessarily an indicator of strength.

[SevenStar]

Seven, I dont disagree with what you said, you are just choosy in what you address in your replies. Structure IS strength, just a different kind, and it is used all the time in fighting depending on your style...structure is the shape of the arm of a boxers punches as they land, the legs of a hung player as they disrupt legs, etc, and that is exactly what you are training with proper stance training.

I'm not trying to be choosy at all - my bad. I don't disagree that structure is strength, as I believe I stated. However, the cap on that is limit compared to the strength you gain from weight training. In addition, I'm really not a believer that stance training would be necessary for structural training - all you need is repetition. A boxer doesn't hold his arm out to perfect the structure of his punch - he punches. In judo we (at least at the two schools I've trained it) don't do stance training - we throw. repetition of the technique - sports specificity, which I believe you addressed earlier. As I said, I do believe moving stance training would be great for this. My main qualm is static stance training.



There have been several successful boxing coaches through history that have also mentioned for instance that striking power isnt really affected by weight training at all.

there have been plenty. there are also other who swear by weight training. preference, that's all. You don't have to be super strong to be a good fighter, however, that's not what the topic is.


I think that is the problem is when people talk strength they often are just referring to what is studied generally, mostly sports stuff, explosive power etc. Structure is what makes it possible for a 150lb man to tear right through the strength of a 240 lb, weight lifting guy. I have seen and experienced this on myself and against others first hand.

As have I. But it's not that common. that's why there are weight classes in sports. I have taken HARD shots from guys smaller than me that barely staggered me, though they would've likely KOed their own size. On the same token, I have rocked guys smaller than me with strikes That by my own standard are considered light. a little guy like de la hoya can KO people in his class and maybe a class higher, but make him fight a heavyweight and he will get destroyed. strength matters more as skill levels become more equal.