ufc 64

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

the lightweight fight was aweomse, sherk just squirtin blood, but i really wansnt expecting another tito shamrock in the heavies. good to see some standup though.

[FatherDog]

I was expecting Franklin to win, but I was also expecting him to try to take Silva down. Wrong on both counts! Franklin wasn't doing badly standing with Silva; I'd even say it was about even, but once Silva clinched with him it was pretty much all over but the shouting.

I was expecting Sherk to pretty much dominate Kenflo from bell to bell. The early cut changed my prediction a little - Sherk dominated him from bell to bell while bleeding on him.

[WinterPalm]

In terms of exchanges on their feet I would say Silva/Franklin were pretty even but Silva has way better footwork and it seemed he had more options which Franklin could not answer.

[LeeCasebolt]

In terms of exchanges on their feet I would say Silva/Franklin were pretty even but Silva has way better footwork and it seemed he had more options which Franklin could not answer.

The big difference was Silva's body work in the clinch. Franklin's never been good in the clinch, and it killed him here.

[Li Kao]

Check out the rearranged nose of Franklin following his fight with Silva. Not looking too pretty anymore -- hopefully when they reset it he will look normal again but man, that was pretty devastating. Score one for the muay thai clinch ...

Ouch (http://www.hometown.aol.com/deejaydj81/ufc.gif)

[David Jamieson]

my nose looks pretty normal. so franklins will too.

it was that knee ta stopped the fight. getting your nose busted takes it out of you pronto.

so there you have it. yet another example of no matter what you train or how hard, there will eventually come along someone who will knock you down and take your place.

that is the price in the sport.

you don't realy know if you're willing to pay it until after you've paid it. (ie had the experience).

It would be interesting to see if Franklin sticks with it now that it has possibly permanently disfigured him.

I know I toned down my fight attitude and wants quite a lot after getting some heavy damage over a couple of confrontations. It changes you.

[Ford Prefect]

The domination of Franklin surprised me. It was a late night though, so I'm happy it was a quick fight.

The Sherk fight would have been channel-flipping boring if I hadn't known Kenny. It's just my personal preference, but I can't stand lay and pray type tactics. That's fine for the prelims, but you know you'll have to see it again when it's a champ doing it. I just hope it was a bad match-up for Sherk and he'll be able to actually do damage in his future title defenses.

[LeeCasebolt]

The domination of Franklin surprised me. It was a late night though, so I'm happy it was a quick fight.

The Sherk fight would have been channel-flipping boring if I hadn't known Kenny. It's just my personal preference, but I can't stand lay and pray type tactics. That's fine for the prelims, but you know you'll have to see it again when it's a champ doing it. I just hope it was a bad match-up for Sherk and he'll be able to actually do damage in his future title defenses.

It's not lay and pray when you're as active as Sherk was. He hit Florian a ton of times, and the fact that Kenny's tough and has good defense doesn't take away from the fact that Sherk was constantly on the attack.

[Chief Fox]

Hey guys, I just got back from Vegas and I was at the fight.

I almost put down some cash on Silva for the upset but actually didn't have time.

The Florian/Sherk fight was interesting. Most of it of course was Kenny being dominated by Sherk. I was impressed with Kenny's ability to get up and have some striking ability inbetween the long ground sessions. This fight was actually booed by the crowd wanting the ref to stand them up.

The crowd response to the Silva Franklin fight was also interesting. My friend and I were talking about how Silva was underated and how we thought that he would give Franklin a good fight. We talked about putting money on Silva but it turned out that the odds weren't so great.

Anyway, Silva entered the arena and a large percentage of the crowd booed him. I didn't get it. Then Franklin entered the arena and everyone went wild.

They started the fight and both fighters were jockeying for position. A few shots were landed and then the clinch. Franklin was on the receiving end of several knees to the body. These shots really took the wind out of his sails and opened him up for the knees to the face. These of course lead to an awesome round house to the face and then the final knee.

My friend and I were jumping out of our seats. Most other people were stunned and silent. Franklin was on the mat for a little while. When he stood back up the camera was on him and they put his face up on the big screens and everyone saw the damage. There was a large gasp and ooooohhhh! from the crowd when we saw that Franklin's nose was now on his cheek.

The event was a great time with many good fights. In all of the bouts there were no tap outs. Most ended in the ground and pound but a few went the distance.

Afterwards my friends and I went to dinner. While eating we saw several UFC and Pride fighters. It was pretty cool.

[Ford Prefect]

It's not lay and pray when you're as active as Sherk was. He hit Florian a ton of times, and the fact that Kenny's tough and has good defense doesn't take away from the fact that Sherk was constantly on the attack.


It's not far off. He never tried to land any big shots. He played it safe and just threw little shots the whole time. The onus falls on Kenny to for not being able to escape, but I think anybody with sub grappling experience can attest to, it's far easier for a better wrestler to land a takedown and stifle subs and sweeps than it is for a bottom guy to push the action.

I just hate fights like that. Whether it is Sherk or Hammill on Spike on Tuesday. The only reason I bought the PPV was because I expected an exciting fight for both title fights. I'll be less apt to buy now if Sherk is one of the main fights of the night. I'm sure some other non-hardcore UFC/MMA fans feel the same way too.

Chief,

That's one thing I didn't get. There should have been more standups. I'm a fan of exciting fighters no matter where they come from or what their style is like. I'd definately like to see Silva fight again. That was impressive.

[Chief Fox]

Sherk slammed Kenny several times and actually almost DDT'd himself with one of the slams. Ater these slams, it didn't look like he was attempting to finish Kenny with strikes. He mostly did A LOT of elbow grinding on Kenny's face. One could speculate that he wasn't able to strike because Kenny was tying him up.

During the fight a large part of the crowd was chanting "KEN-NY, KEN-NY".

Twice during the fight Kenny had Sherk in a guilotine. One of them he had for what seemed like a long time. Sherk was able to get out of both of them. It really looked like Florian was just un-able to handle Sherk's strength.

Kenny was also grabbing on to the fence with everything he had at different points during the match. One time Sherk picked him up and was going to slam him in the middle of the ring but Kenny grabbed the fence so Sherk turned around and slammed him into partially into the fence.

It looked like Kenny's BJJ skills were better but Sherk was just too strong for him.

[FatherDog]

It's not far off. He never tried to land any big shots. He played it safe and just threw little shots the whole time.

Actually, in the first round he postured for big shots quite a few times. After the cut, however, every time he sat up to create distance Florian went after the cut, so he spent most of the fight pressing his head against Florian's body to protect it.


The onus falls on Kenny to for not being able to escape, but I think anybody with sub grappling experience can attest to, it's far easier for a better wrestler to land a takedown and stifle subs and sweeps than it is for a bottom guy to push the action. .

It certainly is easier for a better wrestler to take someone down and hold them in guard than it is for a bottom guy to push the action.

I wouldn't, however, say that it's easier to pass the guard multiple times, mount twice, and get back control than to push the action from the bottom.

[Ford Prefect]

Disagree, FD. It looked like a bunch of those times Sherk passed from 1/2 guard was just Kenny letting him, so he could turtle and try to reverse position of scramble to his feet.

If anything, it highlights the fact that Sherk dominated positionally and still wasn't able to do much in the way of damage. Either Kenny is phenomenal at defense and can hold off a top 3 170 lb'er for 25 minutes, or Sherk wasn't going for the kill.

I just expected a more exciting fight especially with Sherk insisting he wasn't just a strong wrestler anymore and that he was a serious fighter who'd take a fight on a days notice. I'd expect more from "not just a wrestler", and I'd expect for more aggression and less care for a cut from somebody who was putting down another fighter for wanting to heal his injured back before having the biggest fight of his life.

[WinterPalm]

The big difference was Silva's body work in the clinch. Franklin's never been good in the clinch, and it killed him here.

That was the option I alluded to.

[LeeCasebolt]

I'd expect for more aggression and less care for a cut from somebody who was putting down another fighter for wanting to heal his injured back before having the biggest fight of his life.

Why would criticizing another fighter for not fighting at all oblige him to fight like a moron?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i liked the sherk fight.

[Chief Fox]

I just found this post fight picture of Rich Franklin. Looks like his face is just about back to normal.

[WinterPalm]

I just found this post fight picture of Rich Franklin. Looks like his face is just about back to normal.

Yeah, he's looking good!

[Ford Prefect]

Haha! That was painful to watch his post-fight interview.

[FatherDog]

Disagree, FD. It looked like a bunch of those times Sherk passed from 1/2 guard was just Kenny letting him, so he could turtle and try to reverse position of scramble to his feet.

that would seem more reasonable to me if it weren't for the fact that most of the times Sherk passed his half guard, he /didn't/ try to turtle or reverse position, but rather tried to get back to guard. Also, at least twice Sherk passed directly from full guard to side mount, which I doubt very much Florian "let" him do... not to mention I have a hard time thinking that Florian "let" him mount him twice.


I just expected a more exciting fight especially with Sherk insisting he wasn't just a strong wrestler anymore and that he was a serious fighter who'd take a fight on a days notice. I'd expect more from "not just a wrestler", and I'd expect for more aggression and less care for a cut from somebody who was putting down another fighter for wanting to heal his injured back before having the biggest fight of his life.

1) Like I said, "just strong wrestlers" don't typically pass guard repeatedly and mount BJJ black belts, and

2) Why would you expect "less care for a cut" from anyone, in any situation?

[Ford Prefect]

]that would seem more reasonable to me if it weren't for the fact that most of the times Sherk passed his half guard, he /didn't/ try to turtle or reverse position, but rather tried to get back to guard. Also, at least twice Sherk passed directly from full guard to side mount, which I doubt very much Florian "let" him do... not to mention I have a hard time thinking that Florian "let" him mount him twice.

Firstly, you've always been a cool guy, FD, but if you are going to put words in my mouth and use fallacious reasoning like I was inferring that Florian "let" Sherk do much of what he did, then I'll have no problem being equally as assanine when posting to you.

Nevermind the fact that you ignored what I said as a qualifier: If anything, it highlights the fact that Sherk dominated positionally and still wasn't able to do much in the way of damage. Either Kenny is phenomenal at defense and can hold off a top 3 170 lb'er for 25 minutes, or Sherk wasn't going for the kill.



1) Like I said, "just strong wrestlers" don't typically pass guard repeatedly and mount BJJ black belts, and

Please. OK. Sherk isn't "just a strong wrestler" because he could pass guard while only going for takedowns, wanting none of the stand up game, and doing no damage to his opponent while laying on him for the vast majority of the fight. That was an impressive example of a fully evolved MMA fighter who is proficient in every facet of the sport... He is now just a strong wrestler who passes well.



2) Why would you expect "less care for a cut" from anyone, in any situation?

From anyone? No. That's obviously the smart thing to do despite it being a boring fight style.

From a guy that went out of his way to say that having an injury is not an excuse not to fight and put himself forth as a hardcore guy that would fight under any conditions? Yes. If he wants to talk so much crap and go out of his way to insult another fighter, then he should back it up. I'm just pointing out that he is a hypocrite. I see nothing wrong with that strategy.

[FatherDog]

Firstly, you've always been a cool guy, FD, but if you are going to put words in my mouth and use fallacious reasoning like I was inferring that Florian "let" Sherk do much of what he did, then I'll have no problem being equally as assanine when posting to you.

I wasn't trying to claim you were infering that - I mentioned several things (passing half guard, passing guard, mounting, and getting back control) that Sherk did demonstrating that he was pushing the action, rather than just "stifling subs and sweeps" as you initially said, and you responded that one of them (passing half guard) was due to Florian "letting" him. Since you didn't explicitly address the others, I was noting that your opinion on the reason for one of them (passing half guard) was unlikely to be true of the others, so my statements about him being pushing the action and not just holding Florian down were still quite valid.


Nevermind the fact that you ignored what I said as a qualifier: If anything, it highlights the fact that Sherk dominated positionally and still wasn't able to do much in the way of damage. Either Kenny is phenomenal at defense and can hold off a top 3 170 lb'er for 25 minutes, or Sherk wasn't going for the kill.

I have no problem with stating that someone who's been finished only once in his career and has a history of entering absolute divisions and either winning or only losing on points is phenomenal at defense.


Please. OK. Sherk isn't "just a strong wrestler" because he could pass guard while only going for takedowns, wanting none of the stand up game, and doing no damage to his opponent while laying on him for the vast majority of the fight. That was an impressive example of a fully evolved MMA fighter who is proficient in every facet of the sport...

Why would he want any of the standup game, when he was dominating him on the ground? Sherk already beat Nick Diaz, a welterweight with a longer reach who has KOed several opponents, in the standup, so I doubt the fact that he was going for takedowns over and over indicates he has bad standup, any more than Florian doing nothing on the feet and only going for the takedowns against Kit Cope indicates that he's a "one dimensional grappler". If you're beating someone in one area and having no problem getting it there or keeping it there, why would you voluntarily fight in another area where your opponent might stand more of a chance?


He is now just a strong wrestler who passes well.

...and mounts well. And gets back control well. And sweeps well.


From anyone? No. That's obviously the smart thing to do despite it being a boring fight style.

From a guy that went out of his way to say that having an injury is not an excuse not to fight and put himself forth as a hardcore guy that would fight under any conditions? Yes. If he wants to talk so much crap and go out of his way to insult another fighter, then he should back it up. I'm just pointing out that he is a hypocrite. I see nothing wrong with that strategy.

I really don't see where you're coming from, here. How does not fighting at all because of an injury equate to fighting more conservatively because of a cut? If Sherk put himself forth as a "hardcore guy who would fight under any conditions", if anything this match confirms it - despite having been cut and losing a lot of blood, Sherk /kept fighting/ for the entire five rounds, and continued working to pass and improve position even though, as you said, it's much easier to get into guard and just "stifle sweeps and submissions". The fact that he fought intelligently doesn't equate to not fighting at all.

[Ford Prefect]

I wasn't trying to claim you were infering that - I mentioned several things (passing half guard, passing guard, mounting, and getting back control) that Sherk did demonstrating that he was pushing the action, rather than just "stifling subs and sweeps" as you initially said, and you responded that one of them (passing half guard) was due to Florian "letting" him. Since you didn't explicitly address the others, I was noting that your opinion on the reason for one of them (passing half guard) was unlikely to be true of the others, so my statements about him being pushing the action and not just holding Florian down were still quite valid.

See. In my opinion. Pushing the action is trying to win the fight via KO or sub; not just changing positions.

Also, I only a "bunch" of times Florian let him. I believe his only sweep was from such an occasion. I never said the majority of times, most of the time, half the time, or even close to half the time. I merely said a bunch, which in my mind is a handful. I felt I did address the other times when I stated that Sherk dominated positionally. I thought it was clear. If not, then I needed to be clearer. I don't see how it could be clearer than saying Sherk dominated positionally, but I'll try.



I have no problem with stating that someone who's been finished only once in his career and has a history of entering absolute divisions and either winning or only losing on points is phenomenal at defense.

But I do. Submission grappling is far different from MMA as we all know. This is all besides the point because it is blatantly obvious to anyone watching that Sherk wasn't going for the kill. He was obviously protecting the cut as you've said so yourself. Unless you are saying that what you said in your other post was inaccurate or a lie. Which is it?

I have no problem with protecting a cut as it is only following the rules the best he can to go for a win although I will still say it was snooze fest and lay n' pray. I am allowed to think its a boring way to fight, right? If not, could you email my opinion to me after every fight so I'll know what is exciting to me and what isn't? I also take exception from all the trash he talked about him being a "real" fighter as opposed to one who worries about injuries.


Why would he want any of the standup game, when he was dominating him on the ground? Sherk already beat Nick Diaz, a welterweight with a longer reach who has KOed several opponents, in the standup, so I doubt the fact that he was going for takedowns over and over indicates he has bad standup, any more than Florian doing nothing on the feet and only going for the takedowns against Kit Cope indicates that he's a "one dimensional grappler". If you're beating someone in one area and having no problem getting it there or keeping it there, why would you voluntarily fight in another area where your opponent might stand more of a chance?

Did Florian make a good attempt at finishing Cope?

Did Sherk make a good attempt at finishing Kenny, or was he content to get the takedown, maybe pass, and throw little, choppy shots?

This is my bone of contention. I think it's rather obvious that any good fighter will want to limit any advantage another fighter has over him. When it was apparent that Sherk was outmatched on his feet, then he definately should have taken it down and tried to win there. It's the nature of his "trying to win" which I don't like. Trying to win to me means that he's actively going for the sub or KO. If I want to see somebody win on takedowns and positioning, then I'll go to a wrestling match. When I want to see some somebody push the action for a KO or sub, I watch MMA. If somebody doesn't try to do this and grinds out a decision through positional domination, then I say it's a boring fight.

Am I allowed to have the opinion that fights that have one fighter that just endlessly goes for takedowns and attempts to win mainly on controlling position is a boring fight? This is allowed right?




...and mounts well. And gets back control well. And sweeps well.

And submits and ko's or at the very least comes close to submitting or ko'ing from those dominating postions well... Oh wait. That never happenned.

I guess the only thing we can do is agree that my opinion on what constitutes a boring fight and boring fighter are in fact wrong. If you'd be kind of enough to give me a link to the section of the rules of at the "being an MMA fan" website that provides what I should think is exciting and what is boring, then I would appreciate it. It would help us avoid such exchanges in the future.



I really don't see where you're coming from, here. How does not fighting at all because of an injury equate to fighting more conservatively because of a cut? If Sherk put himself forth as a "hardcore guy who would fight under any conditions", if anything this match confirms it - despite having been cut and losing a lot of blood, Sherk /kept fighting/ for the entire five rounds, and continued working to pass and improve position even though, as you said, it's much easier to get into guard and just "stifle sweeps and submissions". The fact that he fought intelligently doesn't equate to not fighting at all.

You yourself said his strategy changed after the cut. He didn't throw any bombs and didn't try to open up in an effort to protect the cut. If a guy is going to go out of his way to insult another fighter for being equally smart, then I'm going to expect him to still try to punch the guy through the mat or go for subs after he gets cut. Otherwise, he is just being a hypocrite.

[Chief Fox]

I just read on another forum that Sherk actually injured his rotator cuff a week before the fight and didn't tell anyone until after.

This could be the reason for his lay and pray game plan.

[Ford Prefect]

Didn't hear about that. If it is true, then I take back the hypocrit statement since he got into the cage injured.

His lay n pray came about after he got though. It's tough to say if he still would have done that had he not got cut. Still a boring fight, imo.