Reviews of Internal Damage

[Invincible Yang]

Is there anyone who has seen Glenn Hairston's "Internal Damage Advanced Tai Chi Chuan for Combat?" If so could you post your opinion?

[Three Harmonies]

Link perhaps??
Jake :)

[chud]

Link perhaps??
Jake :)

His site is http://internaldamagetaichi.com/

I didn't think the section on the form was that good, but I liked the section where he showed applications; there aren't too many videos out showing applications, so that was cool to watch. If nothing else I give him credit for promoting the martial aspect of Taijiquan.

[Invincible Yang]

Yea I liked some of the trailor, I liked the idea of on the street application. But I was curious about the DVD as a whole.

[GeneChing]

See Real Taiji Combat: From the Mountains to the Street By Dr. Craig Reid in our 2006 March/April issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=646).

[imperialtaichi]

Greetings,

I saw only the "parry punch" trailer. Resembles more San Sou than Tai Chi to me.

It is great that he is promoting Tai Chi as a fighting art, and I am not commenting on his ability as a fighter. But describing Tai Chi as "down and dirty"? I don't think so.

When Tai Chi is used in combat, it still follows the rule of "Jien Lien Nien Xui" or "sticking and following", softness overcoming hardness, Yin and Yang exchange, etc.. I did not see any there on the demo. I did not see anything that resembles even remotely what Wang Zhong Yue talks about in the Tai Chi classics. All I see is him blocking and punching. Although I must say, he is quite fast, effective and stable, and I respect that.

Would what he shows on the demo work on the street? Yeah, I think so. But is it Tai Chi? No, it is not.

My opinion only.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I applaud his efforts to represent Taiji as a useful fighting art.. but, if you watch many of the punches and some of the applications, there is not much "whole body" involvement.. punches are primarily arm-work, apps and QiNa are a little better but still lacking "oomph".. as an understanding of transferring form to application it's pretty good, now we can see where to add "principles" to the demonstration for a more Taiji-like representation.. A solid "B" for effort, though..

Be well..

[qiphlow]

i just hope that after countering the first punch, one would be fast enough to catch the agressor's follow-up punch before it caught you in the face. i've always been taught to block/intercept in a manner that "closes off" your opponent, so that in order to follow with another strike, he'd have to cross his own arm to reach you. looks cool on the video, tho.

[brucereiter]

Greetings,

I saw only the "parry punch" trailer. Resembles more San Sou than Tai Chi to me.

It is great that he is promoting Tai Chi as a fighting art, and I am not commenting on his ability as a fighter. But describing Tai Chi as "down and dirty"? I don't think so.

Would what he shows on the demo work on the street? Yeah, I think so. But is it Tai Chi? No, it is not.

My opinion only.

Cheers,
John

hi john,

we all have opinions ... that is what forums are here for, to express our opinions.

here are some of my opinions on your comments ...

it seems when people say they can fight with tai chi chuan other people say it is external or not following the principals to their standards or it looks like another martial art and when someone follows the principals to the standards set by many tai chi people they never show what i think of as actual fighting skill how to fight against a street thug who does not care about tai chi he just thinks "fist smash face" "grunt". or defending yourself from a angry 6'3" 275lb soccer holigan who is drunk and does not care one bit about rules or respect.

do you know of a good example on the net of a good tai chi fighter?

why do you say it is not tai chi? could it be that he has another understanding of the same thing?

is tai chi chuan a dynamic art or a static art? what i mean is i think the art changes and adapts to each person who pursues it.

also i think tai chi chuan is "down and dirty" breaking and arm, knocking the wind out of a person, poking an eye, breaking a knee, knee to the groin, smash head against wall (aka push), etc etc all of these things sound pretty "down and dirty" to me. i dont think that because you do tai chi you must fight fair or nice.

my opinions ...:)

best

b

[fiercest tiger]

Like to see the dvd maybe the clips dont give it the justice it may deserve, but its good that he is out there reping his taiji for the street.

I like how the camera angles are used and the editing looks nice also.....

[imperialtaichi]

hi john,

we all have opinions ... that is what forums are here for, to express our opinions.

here are some of my opinions on your comments ...

...actual fighting skill how to fight against a street thug who does not care about tai chi he just thinks "fist smash face" "grunt". or defending yourself from a angry 6'3" 275lb soccer holigan who is drunk and does not care one bit about rules or respect...

...why do you say it is not tai chi? could it be that he has another understanding of the same thing?...

...also i think tai chi chuan is "down and dirty" breaking and arm, knocking the wind out of a person, poking an eye, breaking a knee, knee to the groin, smash head against wall (aka push), etc etc all of these things sound pretty "down and dirty" to me. i dont think that because you do tai chi you must fight fair or nice.

my opinions ...:)



Hello Shalindoiscool,

I value your opinions too, and I respect that everyone look at things from different angles.

As I was saying before, I am not doubting whether his stuff would work on the street, but just saying it is not very Tai Chi. What makes Tai Chi "Tai Chi" is the principles behind the movements, and not just the movements alone. The signatures were described by Wang Zhong Yue. Go ever it and see whether what his interpretation is similar to the Tai Chi Classics.

Sure, Tai Chi can employ arm breaks, groin punches etc but what make it works is not because it is "dirty", but because it is great. If you ever get into a real fight, just being "down and dirty" is not going to save your neck.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Shaolindoiscool,

Here is my interpretation of how I would use the stikes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTCcIBdtbD4

Of course, I was doing it WITHOUT any power on the strikes so my student would not get hurt. In real life I would strike the points will full power. Methods and points to use describe in the second half.

Of course, I could be the one with the wrong interpretation ;)

Cheers,
John

[Three Harmonies]

So what are the Taiji classics, and who authored them?
Jake

[bamboo_ leaf]

Nice clips John.

The words with out any power I think might give some the wrong impression. I think a better way to say it would have been ( I used long and slow changes in order not to hurt my student) or something like that. Looking at your other clips, they where also nice.

Taiji, what or who decides this is kind of a hard subject since most are not really in a position to know what is correct or not. I say this based on the many clips of masters posted and people either mocking or questioning the reality of what is shown. Such is the state of taiji today.

[brucereiter]

Hello Shalindoiscool,

I value your opinions too, and I respect that everyone look at things from different angles.


thank you for not taking offense ... it is sometimes hard to communicate on these forums the way one might in person ...



As I was saying before, I am not doubting whether his stuff would work on the street, but just saying it is not very Tai Chi.

i like what i have seen of him but i think you would need to feel it first hand to tell. i do think it is unfair to say it is not very tai chi based on what you see from his website. maybe saying it is different than your understanding of tai chi chuan:)



What makes Tai Chi "Tai Chi" is the principles behind the movements, and not just the movements alone. The signatures were described by Wang Zhong Yue. Go ever it and see whether what his interpretation is similar to the Tai Chi Classics.

true the principals are what i think defines tai chi chuan. i also think each tai chi chuan "artist" will have his own manifestation of what the principals mean and how to apply them.



Sure, Tai Chi can employ arm breaks, groin punches etc but what make it works is not because it is "dirty", but because it is great. If you ever get into a real fight, just being "down and dirty" is not going to save your neck.

Cheers,
John

i think we might be saying the same thing with different words ... i do think many tai chi chuan people do not train their martial art in a very realistic way and might be a little wraped up in the words of the principals instead of the reality of fighting. having said that if you are not following the principals you might not be doing tai chi chuan even though you won the fight ...

oh yeah, thanks for showing that clip ... good stuff. i really like the idea presented in the first app. and the second on controling the hips ...

[cjurakpt]

regardless of whether or not he is applying biomechanical principles of tai chi, IMHO he violates numerous tactical combat principles on the very first app, which is that:

1) he does not intercept the initial attack before it can reach maximum acceleration(c.f. - "my opponent starts before I do, but I arrive before he does"), but rather meets it at the point where it has already accumulated significant power, well past the apex of it's arc

2) when he blocks initially he does so without: a) using body movement / footwork to obtain superior position - (he remains on the oponent's inside); b) sticking / following in order to disrupt the opponents balance via reirection of the extremity or dominate / control the opponent's centerline (which, if he is on the inside, is probably the best way to pre-empt the inevitable second strike)

3) the first block is done without any counterattack, which allows the opponent to continue to flow into a second attack (which is exponentially harder to handle)

4) when he finally does counterattack it's not simultaneous, but a full beat later; in other words, there was no reason that the opponent couldn't have continued on to a third attack, because there was no disruption / control, only two blocks;

5) I found his take on bun lan choih to be rather superficial in terms of understanding the essence of the principle it demonstrates: nulifying a linear attack with a circular redirection (bun) while positioning oneself advantageously to the opponents outside (hence the twisting step footwork), obstructing lan) with a linear palm to prevent a counter redirection from the opponent and finally counterattacking with a linear fist (choi) from an angle that exploits the resulting exposed strutures (ribs, back - depending on where you jam)

In sum, his whole defensive structure was more karate-like than CMA-like - remember, tai chi is a CMA, meaning that it shares common principles with other CMA's, so the earmarks of a CMA approach should be present...

[qiphlow]

cjurakpt: that's what i saw, too--you just explained it a hell of a lot better than i could.

imperialtaichi: i enjoyed very much your video clips! i'd love to push with you sometime, but alas, you're in australia and i'm in san francisco--
one day!

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

Very nice display of soft power, love watching them over and over and i really need to come and visit you before i leave.

I like the other clip of the push palms, you have good knowledge or your opponents center!

Do you test all Taiji movements like this?

Garry

[fiercest tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ0nNUuGX2w&NR

Have you seen this guys?

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ0nNUuGX2w&NR

Have you seen this guys?

no ...

what would happen if 6' 250lb thug from college park (a "nice" part of atlanta) started smashing him? can he use this "skill" to defend himself? (i use this example since where i live in the usa the chances of being attacked by a small (under 5' 6"/150lbs) person is pretty slim but the chances of being attacked by a "large" thug is pretty high.
most thugs have never heard of tai chi chuan or kong jin (empty force) they just know "smash face" kick head"

so i would ask is this teacher demonstrating self defense or is it another skill i am not aware of?

i think i know the answer to my question ...

best

b

[fiercest tiger]

I think he was just demonstrating control and some basic defense, of course reality is alot more meaner but what Dr John was showing was some very nice display of control and taiji principles. Who knows he might be alot better in realtime but that isnt what he was trying to display.

IMHO!!

Garry

[brucereiter]

I think he was just demonstrating control and some basic defense, of course reality is alot more meaner but what Dr John was showing was some very nice display of control and taiji principles. Who knows he might be alot better in realtime but that isnt what he was trying to display.

IMHO!!

Garry

hi garry,

i just want to make sure you know i was not talking about john's video, i was refering to the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ0nNUuGX2w&NR

i think i see what john was showing and i liked it ...

best

b

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mate,

Sorry for the confusion, was that guy doing lin kong jing?

[brucereiter]

Hi Mate,

Sorry for the confusion, was that guy doing lin kong jing?

hi garry,

i guess it is "kong jin" i used that term because i have seen other people do the same type of thing and call it kong jin ... i really dont know anything about it other than i think it looks silly and has nothing to do with the martial art of tai chi chuan as i know it. it seems more like mind control over your students ...

best

b

[fiercest tiger]

G'Day, Wouldnt Kong Jing be just another level of YI QI if its mind control?

Can Kong Jing be found in every art anyway or if it just the mind and energy of a person and you can learn it with out the internal arts?

Garry

I found this fajing clip, Dr John is much softer and gets similar results without the muscle force!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHSMAcVhA7M&mode=related&search=

[RonH]

I liked that last clip. A lot of what's in that clip can actually be done not by the defender, but by the attacker themself, where you even limit severily just how much fa-jing you're doing. Case in point, someone (B) comes up to someone else (A). A unbalances B and gently pushes them back into an awkward position and they're surprised. With this surprise, they react and stumble a little, so that they can regain their balance, but they want to do it quickly and the faster they go, the more they loose their balance because they're misstepping. Their feet are gonna scurry quickly, as they try to stop themselves and they start fumbling over their own feet. If you twist the upper body one way and twist the lower body the other before you unbalance/push, they'll be in a worse position and they'll go further, as they try to realign themselves to attack again. It's actually very funny to watch. Quick changes in the direction you apply pressure to surprise your opponent is what's needed, particularly when it's hard to see.

Take what's in the clip. The feet of all the people being pushed and thrown are moving at a blur when they won't go as far if they stop trying to move their feet so quickly. The steps they take are too small. I don't know if this guy is really expending a huge amount of internal energy or just using a very small amount and letting them stumble over themselves, but in either case, moving your feet slowly and deliberately over larger steps than those shown in the clip is a way to recover quicker and you won't go as far.

And I liked when that one guy rolled into the one behind him.

[qiphlow]

i have learned this: when attacking a good taiji player, the mor u give, the more u get!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Dr. John: Thanks for the clips, there are some nicely developed expressions of Taiji there.. much more evolved and practical than some earlier clips i had seen.. The posted clip had some very minor issues of "space management", which may have been the result of "demo" type movements as opposed to "live" movements.. All-in-all, one of the better examples of Taiji applications..

I wish more people would take their "Taiji Applications" demos to a conclusion or result that demonstrates the usefulness of Taiji as a combat art.. i am considering doing such a video in the near future, but.. sadly, i am technologically challenged.. one of my students, however, has offered to assist me.. (i think he has real techno-skill)..

The other gentleman, throwing and pushing his students around was largely external and impractical from a combat perspective.. his students were overly compliant.. the older clip, black and white, challenges my sense of credibility..

One signature i look for in apps is the awareness of the "internal spring principle", where the players are expanding or compressing from their centers.. like a spring.. if you take a spring from a click-type ball-point pen and compress it between your fingers, there is equal pressure at both ends of the spring.. if you release it quickly, there is also equal pressure at both ends of the spring.. this is an example of balanced awareness, where, if i apply force with my arms there is equal force applied in my feet's connection to the ground.. regardless of whether you move one finger or the other, the spring's "mindless" principle applies equal force at both ends, expanding or compressing from its center.. isolated movements without this awareness is unbalanced and will create disadvantage of instability..

Like the springs on an auto's suspension, force is absorbed by the system (remember CTS theory), until sufficient force is stored to overcome the applied opponent's force (usually about the time they reach an apex of movement/force).. this is really cool stuff, if you can cultivate your "Peng" to good levels it just does the work for you, like the auto's springs balance the road's immovable "sung".. mindlessly consistent and without contrived movement.. I do understand the contrivances of combat theory, but beneath those contrivances there should be the "springs" that support the principles..

Thanks for tolerating my ramblings, Be well..

[qiphlow]

well said, taichibob.

[gabe]

I looked at several of the clips posted and I see good stuff. However, I don't see this "internal" or "soft" or nonmuscular power that is supposedly so different.

This isn't a criticism of any of them- they're all good. I just don't understand the comments about them. What I see in most of them, is a drop in the body, a bow and arrow type stance, dropping the knee, aligning the elbows, dropping the elbows, and straightening thrust. On a few of Dr. John's clips, he rolls, finds an opportunity, steps in and throws. And all of the required body alignment is there. Clearly, the mechanics are correct, but those mechanics are using the whole body, and yes, most definitely his muscles. And taking advantage of leverage over his opponent. The last clip as well where the guy is throwing people.

What is "internal" about these clips? Would it be external if the person just used bad mechanics or just his arms and not the whole body? Would that be more "muscular." LOL they're all muscular! Just that the right muscles are being used!

However, what I just wrote doesn't explain the clip from FT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ0nNUuGX2w&NR

[bamboo_ leaf]

Maybe what you wrote is not what is really happening. The other clips compared to the last clip you mentioned show the same things being used, just at a lower level.
The first understanding in any of this is to try it by ones self. see why and how it works and also why it does not.

[gabe]

Maybe what you wrote is not what is really happening. The other clips compared to the last clip you mentioned show the same things being used, just at a lower level.
The first understanding in any of this is to try it by ones self. see why and how it works and also why it does not.

What exactly isn't happening that I wrote?

Does Dr. John execute a bow and arrow type stance, sometimes stepping into it? Does he drop the back knee and the elbow prior to pushing his opponent? Do you see an extension of his limbs on the push? I see whole body usage as well.

As far as the last clip, do you believe that old man can move you without contact? Do you just accept the first clips (Dr. John's) as being "low level" requiring contact and alignment, with the last clip being higher level without need for contact and conclude that it's all the same mechanisms involved?

Sure you have to try these things yourself. On the same token, if you can't actually do it, like what the last clip shows, careful in taking liberties to explain it.

But opinions are welcome! That's why we're here, right?

[bamboo_ leaf]

(As far as the last clip, do you believe that old man can move you without contact? Do you just accept the first clips (Dr. John's) as being "low level" requiring contact and alignment, with the last clip being higher level without need for contact and conclude that it's all the same mechanisms involved?)

I only post from experince, either from haveng felt or can do, no liberties taken here.
The other shows the same skills at a higher level. Low level and high level just relative terms used to describe skill sets that may or may not be apparent just by watching.


The first clips at the beginning of this thread regardless of weather they are effective or not one has to balance them with what has been written and demoed by other taiji teachers to see if they fall into the same type of skill sets……

[gabe]

(


The other shows the same skills at a higher level. Low level and high level just relative terms used to describe skill sets that may or may not be apparent just by watching.


……

The "same" skills? One involves contact, the other doesn't. That's a big difference, hence I question why you'd assume they have the same underlying mechanisms.

So you don't see the alignments and body mechanics I described?

[bamboo_ leaf]

how do you know they do not?

no assumptions made on my part, what i see is in accordance to my own experinces

The body mechanics that you describe, will not work with out the other skills. I would even say that the other skills are what give the body the shape initially which is discarded at a higher level or later stage of development.

So for me the first and most important part is not necessarily the body mechanics, but the mind or inner components that in my view the mechanics help to promote until a certain stage of development has been reached. Weather contact is made or not, what makes it work is the same, providing that it’s the underling skills at work in the first place.

[gabe]

how do you know they do not?

no assumptions made on my part, what i see is in accordance to my own experinces

The body mechanics that you describe, will not work with out the other skills. I would even say that the other skills are what give the body the shape initially which is discarded at a higher level or later stage of development.

So for me the first and most important part is not necessarily the body mechanics, but the mind or inner components that in my view the mechanics help to promote until a certain stage of development has been reached. Weather contact is made or not, what makes it work is the same, providing that it’s the underling skills at work in the first place.

Ok let me try and understand what you are saying. It's not the body mechanics but the mind and inner components. What are these "inner components? What is it that makes it work? And although I didn't mean to imply that you were taking liberties as far as what you were stating previously, now it seems that you might be. You are describing the "high level" shown in the last clip which I don't think any of us here can do.

So getting back to my original questions, what are these inner components you mention and how does it all work? And how does it not involve body mechanics? You talk of a stage of development to be reached- what exactly are you developing?