Disillusioned wiht my Wing Chun training

[wcisformen]

Please note im not saying im disillusioned with wing chun itself – im sure the art or the million different takes on it work for different people.

I’ve only been training 2 years (three times a week every week) but find it hard to realistically apply wing chun. I don’t mean one attack, one defend scenarios – but when the training is picked up, and defending/sparring against a non-compliant partner (particularly from different style) my technique does not hold up. It often disintegrates into a basic boxing style scenario.

I wonder what people’s thoughts are on this. Is likely to be the length of time I have been training, the style itself, the method of training (application/drill heavy, with less emphasis initially on the forms, and some modifications of these from the traditional system to make them more). I know I’m not giving you enough info on my case but wondered if people had similar frustrations, etc. in their training.

Thanks

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is an old story, and imo, regardless of lineage, the problem lies in an unrealistic approach to training that at least 90% of the wing chun world engages in. Let me put it another way - judge a school by how much time they actually spend getting it's students "street ready".

In other words, in addition to forms, chi sao (and all related drills), the wooden dummy, basic footwork, basic punching and kicking drills...

How much time is actually spent sparring?
And if so - how much time with light contact, medium, heavy?
Any crosstraining going on? If not - then exactly what are they doing against:
Boxing?
Grappling?
Karate?
Muay Thai?
Kickboxing?
Time spent punching, kicking, knees, elbows....using mitts, pads, shields, bags?
How much stretching?
How much time spent developing cardio endurance?
Strengthening and conditioning?
Working against the streetfighter mentality?
Such as wild meant-to-take-your-head-off haymaker round punches?
Headlocks that might lead to a hip toss putting you on the ground?
Rear bearhugs?
Standing/pushing front chokes?
Charges like a football player meant to drop you right on your back?
Multiple opponents?
Attacks with knives or sticks?

[k gledhill]

agree with the previous post....you have to step back and look at the approach being 'sold'. A lot of Vt today has turned into 'applications' or self defence "according to bob".or whoever [nothing against bobs by the way:D ] or worse ' SPIRITUAL' chi development that you take to the ufc and beat them with inner force : ) LMAO sorry ....today the proving grounds are the ring & the street / bar /nightclub etc... if your being asked to do SLT and develop anything other than a fighting framework with your elbows/arms ...ask yourself , does this guy really know how to fight with this mess or is he walking around proclaming inner chi / chisao alone will save you ....
VT is FIGHTING attribute training SYSTEM , this should include what was listed above ....the forms are only to correct yourself away from the random fighting/sparring...the chisao is to teach what to expect in terms of force and where to put it...how to move with that force, not always having to be touching it...maintaining maximum [to you] fight distance standing side on moving to the left and right of an attack and attacking the same to a persons right or left....VT IS like boxing just using our system of elbow/c~line
flanking while facing square with the shoulders at the SIDE, like we step into the dummy, when to step in or move is all about timing and training ....when you make contact for real your chisao will have prepared you for what force feels like , giving you the ability to have correct angles to counter a specific line of force without thinking about it....the rolling of the arms in chisao is onlt to train a move and elbow recovery to get back to hitting again ...no 'set-pieces' like I do bong you punch I do 3 things bs...try to invite straightline attacks so you can flank at the last second following it as it retreats....
....standing with a lead leg forwards straight away limits your lateral movement/thinking to a straight line attack...think of moving like a bulllfighter , stay next to the bull stabbing it to death before it gets its horns back at you , if you lose the attack , prepare for the charge again side on wait till the last second or it will simply follow you, if you footwork fails , say goodbye :D
would you go backwards to a bulls charge or straightline blast it head on ?
another analogy my instructor uses is fighting a bucket of water with your own, you wait for the commitment of the throw and flank , if you try to hold your ground even if you block a lot, still some will go through....

[leejunfan]

Not all WCK's train for fighting. Some just do endless drills of chi sau and think this will prepare them for noncompliant opponents.....WRONG! The other problem is that if a WCK school DOES train for fighting ie sparring and so on the WCK "Snobs" start screaming "That doesn't look like WC" and so on. Pathetic! These are also the guys who say their art is "too deadly" for the ring..... again... pathetic.

Don't give up my friend. When I first started looking for WC the very first school I found was a joke. I got lucky and found one an hour away. It was worth the trip 3 days a week compared to the joke school 10 minutes away. And if after all that you still feel WCK isn't any good..... find something that is. In the end.... it's all about what YOU want.

Good luck :)

[chud]

I’ve only been training 2 years (three times a week every week) but find it hard to realistically apply wing chun. I don’t mean one attack, one defend scenarios – but when the training is picked up, and defending/sparring against a non-compliant partner (particularly from different style) my technique does not hold up. It often disintegrates into a basic boxing style scenario.



I don't think there's anything wrong with it disintegrating into 'a basic boxing style scenario'. In reality, this is how you will fight in the street. I practice Taiji now, and haven't practiced Wing Chun in years, but the idea is the same; if I get into a fight in the street I'm not going to sink into a Tai Chi stance or a Wing Chun stance and go through movements like the form; instead the form will become formless and I will move however I am comfortable. To a passerby I would probably look like a boxer. However if you have trained hard your techniques from the form and chi sao will show up when you start exchanging with your opponent.
Example: I was doing push hands with my Taiji teacher and he rolled his arm over mine and came at me with a punch. I automatically caught his hand with my palm and he just looked at me like 'where the heck did that come from?'. It was a move from an old Lat Sao routine that I had drilled like a madman when I was first studying Wing Tsun. I only took WT for a little over a year, but I remember drilling that particular Lat Sao routine over and over, and now apparently it is part of me, even though I haven't trained WT in well over five years.

[SavvySavage]

In Wing Chun and ALL kung fu you train form.

In Wing chun you train form, chi sao, drillling, footwork etc. What's the point of training all of that if you're just going to revert into any old style? I'm not knocking the fact that the origional poster reverted to boxing. It is more natural for him because he hasn't trained long enough.

When Bruce Lee talked of formlessness he was only reiterating what Chinese martial arts has been doing for years. Most will never understand this level and I think Bruce Lee understood it on an intelectual level. His physical skill is debateable. ANywho, in wing chun you train forms and all that so that WHEN A FIGHT OCCURS YOU GO FORMLESS BUT IN A WING CHUN WAY. That means you don't just start jumping around like a monkey. You freesyle but you freestyle with Wing Chun footwork, hand positions(tan, bong, fook,etc) while using wing chun structure. The idea is to go formless but only after you've mastered the basic principles of the system.

When it comes to "real" fights you have to ask yourselves one question: Are you a person that walks into fights or away from fights? Many of the people on this forum, who advocate "real" training over traditional training fall into the category of those who walk into fights.

Tell me I'm wrong

[Liddel]

I agree with the above post's but i also believe in one other very important factor.

Many schools dont - know how to/ or practice -
Non compliant, Poon Sao which without stopping will lead into Gor Sao and free fighting.

Most VT schools ive seen have totally compliant Poon Sao, Luk Sao and Gor Sao drills and they have no ability to transform between each platform without stopping and starting again.
This limits a students progression running into your problem - finding it doesnt work under preasure.

Starting at the base level having Non compliant Poon sao and without stopping being taught how to move into Non compliant, full contact Gor Sao and then Luk sao will give you a better platform to build on when putting on gloves and getting busy throwing leather....

Each level builds on the next and HAS been passed down by those that not only learnt VT fighting techniques but also HOW to TEACH VT fighting techniques properly.

[leejunfan]

Tell me I'm wrong

You're wrong!

Well you told me to tell you that :p

Want me to tell you anything else? :D

[Lindley]

wcisformen,

Kung Fu, like anything else we want to do well in life, must have a goal. If your goal is to be a better fighter, then you must take a broader overview of this goal. A fighter must have courage and show a commitment to fighting. A fighter must have trust in their ability. If you don't have these things, then the "style" has nothing to do with this and you must find a way to develop these things which evolve from within you.

The first step is to understand what you are doing and why you do it. The development of relaxation comes from doing something with little effort. Having confidence because you have done it 1000 times.

You are describing the Kung Fu like the ball and chain. This is not what it was meant to be. It was meant as a foundation for you to express your own kung fu, your "Jeet kune do". Everyone has different bodies, different experiences, and different abilities. So one must gain an honest understanding of their capabilities by their own process. Not rely solely on the style. Just because you are a black belt does not make you a great fighter. Just because you have completed the Ving Tsun system does not make you a great fighter. Just because you are great at Chi Sao does not make you a great fighter.

You must become the captain of your own ship, looking for the things in training that will help you express yourself. Ask yourself if you have a purpose when you play Chi Sao? What do you study or think about when you play? For a real fight do you think you have to stand their in a jong sao? Do you feel you are not doing Ving Tsun if you don't use bong, tan, and fuk?

Have you discussed your concerns about your fighting ability with your Sifu?

The Kung Fu should not be viewed as a "one size fits all". As mentioned, you will grow and at some point look into things like strength training, conditioning, and do some free sparring. In regard to your Kung Fu training, take more time to look deeper at where in the Kung Fu training can you emphasize explosiveness?

2 years is not the gauge. Don't worry about your time, except that you need more time to address this issue.

One thing you can work on right away is to avoid hesitation. Don't wait for your opponent. Ving Tsun is an aggressive art that asks the questions.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

[anerlich]

wcisformen,

It might help to ask yourself some questions:

1. Can the senior students and instructor at my school fight effectively using Wing Chun techniques?
2. If the answer to one is no, can they still fight effectively using the boxing style approach?
3. Do I feel lucky? (well do ya, punk? ;) )

If answer to 1 is yes, then you can probably achieve what you want at this school with more tuition and practice.

If the answer to 2 is yes, then you need to consider your priorities, viz. effective self-defence vs. adherence to WC. If self defence, you're probably still OK where you are. If not then you might need to find another school. Certainly there are high level practitioners who can fight effectively with WC, though if they fought with gloves under rules, etc. it might look a little more like boxing than chi sao.

savage:


I think Bruce Lee understood it on an intelectual level. His physical skill is debateable.

Lots of things are debatable, including whether or not your opinions on Bruce Lee's knowledge and abilities carry any weight.


Many of the people on this forum, who advocate "real" training over traditional training fall into the category of those who walk into fights.

You've got 4 posts up, you don't know anybody on this forum and already you're making sweeping and unfounded criticisms.

Sounds like you're the sort of person who walks into fights.

leejunfan is correct - you are not.

[straight blast]

Such as wild meant-to-take-your-head-off haymaker round punches?


Punches like that are God's gift to Wing Chun. Having worked for 2 years in an area that I was exposed to violence on a regular basis I can tell you from experience that I would much rather face one of those than a savvy, measured fighter. Not that I have ever been in an altercation with a savvy, measured fighter but I certainly have experienced the furiously angry "me want kill you" type.

Do you believe that the Wing Chun you have been learning will help you defeat someone who is REALLY intent on hurting you? A drunk a$$hole who wants to smack you around? These are the most likely scenarios. It is good to train against a mixture of opponents but realistically how many times are you going to be attacked (if at all?) by a calm, calculating fighter with many years of training?

Good luck with your training,

SB

[Ultimatewingchun]

I used the example of the meant-to-take-your-head-off haymaker to make a point that is the complete opposite of yours, straightblast...don't spend all of your training time working against skillful, methodical, savvy, measured fighter types...because then you will be vulnerable to the crazed streetfighter type attack - since it's now been ages since you've worked against it.

[sir-elrik]

sparr strongly -analyze your mistakes-work on them

sparr strongly-analyze your mistakes-work on them

keep doing it till u feel that u can aply what u hv learned.





p.s keep in mind that wing chun is about self expresion of its principles. So apply what works for u.

[Kapten Klutz]

wcisformen,

I'm your "younger brother" in WC having not quite trained a whole year. So all I can describe is my similar experience and how I am trying to approach it. I put out these thoughts knowing that I know nothing compared to the the many experienced people on this forum, so I am grateful for criticism.

Basically I see this as one of the main challenges I am facing right now, how to integrate the techniques into a random fighting situation. To me the best thing is to train with a partner who's interested in the same subject. We can spar or take turns attacking each other with wild haymakers or one-two sucker combinations or whatever and just keep practicing on them, trying things out, succeeding, failing, and above all having fun. I've only done this a little so far, but it feels right.

Another thing is that it seems to me that a boxing type scenario like you describe has a totally different rythm to it than WC. In boxing you go in and out of range trying to set up the perfect opportunity. Unless I've totally misunderstood it, in WC you want to close to a shorter range than a boxer likes, and keep the range short till it's decided. If you successfully close to an uncomfortable range for your opponent you don't want to have to start all over again from outside.

This means that WC as a gameplan and style doesn't suit being attacked by a mobile attacker who probes you in a ring-type situation. It's much more about defending yourself against someone who is fighting because he's pıssed off like someone else said in the thread. You wait alert for the attack, deflect/counter, keep going, he's down.

That said, I also enjoy sanshou type sparring since I have tons to learn there as well. It's non-compliant and unpredictable and there are a million mistakes to make. Even with big gloves on I've been trying to sidestep and do a kind of tansao as one way of bringing som WC thinking into it.

[sunfist]

Take some time out, work the basics, train something else.

You might come back in a year or two with a new insight into WC, you might find something that suits you better, either way is just fine.

Id say there are two primary things to understand: unless your school is an exception (and it sounds like it is not, given your frustrations) the curriculum will only get more specialised on fine sensitivity drills from hereon in, and if you dont feel you have a good grounding that will be of no help in a real situation.

Secondly, as sad as it is to admit, there is a cult mindset prevalent in WC. If you keep looking within for an answer people will just bounce you around, from one 'real' method to another. I say step outside of that community for a little while and then reexamine your material from a truly objective viewpoint.

I could blather on about what i feel is the 'real' WC and how to train it, but theres an excess of that already. If anybody is deluded enough to care what i have to say PM me.

[couch]

Take some time out, work the basics, train something else.

You might come back in a year or two with a new insight into WC, you might find something that suits you better, either way is just fine.


I always enjoy taking a little time off to think, or train in something else and then my WC always improves in some way.

Good tip.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[straight blast]

UltimateWingChun...

Well said!

[AmanuJRY]

When it comes to "real" fights you have to ask yourselves one question: Are you a person that walks into fights or away from fights? Many of the people on this forum, who advocate "real" training over traditional training fall into the category of those who walk into fights.

Tell me I'm wrong

You're wrong.:o

I'm one of those on this forum who advocates 'real' training over traditional and I personally know others on this forum who share that sentiment and none of them are the 'type' that 'walk into fights'. Personally, I have 'walked away' and talked myself away from ten times as many conflicts as has resulted in violence.:cool:

Granted, I can't brag about having a load of real fight experience, but at least I have simulated fight experience.;)

And, BTW, those others I mentioned are golden people to know and it has nothing to do with martial experience.:)

[k gledhill]

amanjury , from my experience of many 'real' fights [aka delivering the punch]compared to our sparring or whatever ...usually what you and I will do in the gym is overkill ..the missing MAJOR FACTOR being the results of IMPACT to your partners head...more often than not a single shot to the head will stop someone , I am 6' 1 185lbs so can focus quite a wallop :D when i say stop i mean give someone second thoughts about getting so close to you ....as for wrestling , its a valuable addition to going down , something i used in dark nightclubs when fighting groups and you just lose track of what the hells going on and suddenly you have a guy in a headlock...comes naturally from a couple of years doing judo / wrestling in school. Our chisao can get WAY to complicated trapping arms that in reality will be attached to a body lying 5-6 ft away , usually holding onto the area you just touched:rolleyes:
I have walked away from a lot in the nyc area because my own guide line is to 'reflect like a mirror' so if I see an image of an attack ....;) otherwise its just words/water off a ducks back.
So my point being ! even if you dont hit people for real training, do an extrodinary amount of wall bag /heavy bag / focus mitts etc... bottom line in any fight is to be able to deliver a strong punch moving in balance,etc...you will be surprised at the simplicity of it after all the forms chisao jong sparring ...oh thats it ! all these years and all I had to do was THAT lol !!!:D

[AmanuJRY]

amanjury , from my experience of many 'real' fights [aka delivering the punch]compared to our sparring or whatever ...usually what you and I will do in the gym is overkill ..the missing MAJOR FACTOR being the results of IMPACT to your partners head...more often than not a single shot to the head will stop someone , I am 6' 1 185lbs so can focus quite a wallop :D when i say stop i mean give someone second thoughts about getting so close to you ....as for wrestling , its a valuable addition to going down , something i used in dark nightclubs when fighting groups and you just lose track of what the hells going on and suddenly you have a guy in a headlock...comes naturally from a couple of years doing judo / wrestling in school. Our chisao can get WAY to complicated trapping arms that in reality will be attached to a body lying 5-6 ft away , usually holding onto the area you just touched:rolleyes:
I have walked away from a lot in the nyc area because my own guide line is to 'reflect like a mirror' so if I see an image of an attack ....;) otherwise its just words/water off a ducks back.
So my point being ! even if you dont hit people for real training, do an extrodinary amount of wall bag /heavy bag / focus mitts etc... bottom line in any fight is to be able to deliver a strong punch moving in balance,etc...you will be surprised at the simplicity of it after all the forms chisao jong sparring ...oh thats it ! all these years and all I had to do was THAT lol !!!:D

I'm not sure I understand your point (not dissagreeing with any of your statements, just...), possibly you missed mine.:o

BTW, I'm 6'1", 215 lbs. I'm sure, unless you've got the 'secret' punching technique (wink, wink...nudge, nudge...), that your punches are about the same as mine.

[canglong]

Please note im not saying im disillusioned with wing chun itself – im sure the art or the million different takes on it work for different people.

I’ve only been training 2 years (three times a week every week) but find it hard to realistically apply wing chun. I don’t mean one attack, one defend scenarios – but when the training is picked up, and defending/sparring against a non-compliant partner (particularly from different style) my technique does not hold up. It often disintegrates into a basic boxing style scenario.

I wonder what people’s thoughts are on this. Is likely to be the length of time I have been training, the style itself, the method of training (application/drill heavy, with less emphasis initially on the forms, and some modifications of these from the traditional system to make them more). I know I’m not giving you enough info on my case but wondered if people had similar frustrations, etc. in their training.

Thanks

wcisformen,
Hello,
Your scenario is not a new one most of the people on this forum are, have been where you are or are heading in that direction. Most often the results of this experience will be to learn a single technique or a group or cluster of techniques and precision their execution to the point of false belief that when you use them you are utilizing the wing chun maxim of most efficient. When actually this type of training is moving away from the fundamental training of Wing Chun. The most recognizable trait of wing chun center line theory is what we need examine to stay clear of this mistake.

Center line theory teaches the wing chun practitioner several principles to adhere to in order to affect and maintaine a since of efficiency in combat. Understand that center line theory derived from the "King of the battle field weapons" the spear teaches that when a bridge between two combatants is made using the spear you will recognize true center and the most efficient path of your enemies destruction or that of your own. Though this knowledge is still taught in most wing chuns classes it is not as easily recognized once the spear has been removed from your hands. So we must learn the value of the principle secondly we must learn to recognize the principle in action before it can ever be applied.

So before you build on the center line theory you must be able to explain and execute the principle in practice. So how does one recognize the true center before during and after a bridge has been established. First your instructor will tell you, then he will show you, then you will practice it in your form and then you will practice with a partner all this will build your sense of body karma and enable you to instinctively get to where you want to go.

So where is true center and how does one come to understand that it is true. First the principle teaches us that only one object can occupy a specific space at a specific time. So first object to the space owns the space. Secondly after making the bridge 2 areas of focus that provide you lease of the space are the elbow and the wrist. It is the wrist that aligns to center with the elbow in locking position this secures the bridge. How can we be certain of this .... because if the elbow is out the wrist can easily be taken off center in the directionof the elbow. If the wrist passes center then the connecting bridge will just be assisting in collapsing your wrist inward. Which tells us there is only one specific true center that will not allow a connecting bridge any passage.
find it hard to realistically apply wing chun. When the specifics of wing chun are not adhered to then it really isn't wing chun. So when you bridge on center are you really on center or somewhere about there.

The moral of the story:

You could have a bright fancy fast car but if you can't find your keys you're going to be late to work just like the rest of us. Understand the first principle and build on it. Understand the second principle and build on it and so on and so on and I guarantee better more realistic application and execution will follow.

Keep practicing there is always more to learn.

[Faruq]

I would think iron palm would be integral to making Wing Chun work. Since the Wing Chun system doesn't really teach people to really haul off before hitting someone, I would think having brass knuckles for hands would be integral to making the punches and palms worth anything. Do you guys think it is has any importance? Am I alone on this?

[couch]

I would think iron palm would be integral to making Wing Chun work. Since the Wing Chun system doesn't really teach people to really haul off before hitting someone, I would think having brass knuckles for hands would be integral to making the punches and palms worth anything. Do you guys think it is has any importance? Am I alone on this?

As Kevin said...hit heavy bags, wall bags and focus mitts. You need to know if your fist is tight enough, etc to be able to hit these targets...then you'll know if you can hit a jaw! Sparring is good too...but only after some skill on your part has been copped.

I don't think Iron Palm per se is necessary. Everything comes with time...your stance, your conditioning (cardio/body) and your skill. Give yourself a few years...relax...enjoy the journey.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Faruq]

Yeah, but the iron palm'd get you over in the mean time. Plus, not every guy that opens a school has or teaches great fundamentals. In those cases, your stance, your conditioning (cardio/body) and your skill may never come. I think having brass knuckles for fists would get you over. Plus, how is a 5' 3" guy gonna beat someone 6' 3" and over 200 lbs?

Also, I'd ask how many people seriously want to put in the amount of time it takes to master a system? If you just do it to have something to do 3 nights a week, that's great, but then don't complain if you can't fight with it. Do you think the Ip brothers or any of the sifu qualified under them would certify a guy who wasn't a seasoned iron palm practitioner as a sifu? And if you're not really trying to master the system, how can you really expect it to work for you against all challengers?

Do sifu of the system, and did the sifu throughout the Wing Chun lineage traditionally practice iron palm? If you don't do what they did, how can you expect it to work for you like it worked for them? I guess this is just what I personally would do, before actually expecting to be able to defend myself with it. I dunno.

[couch]

Yeah, but the iron palm'd get you over in the mean time. Plus, not every guy that opens a school has or teaches great fundamentals. In those cases, your stance, your conditioning (cardio/body) and your skill may never come. I think having brass knuckles for fists would get you over. Plus, how is a 5' 3" guy gonna beat someone 6' 3" and over 200 lbs?

Also, I'd ask how many people seriously want to put in the amount of time it takes to master a system? If you just do it to have something to do 3 nights a week, that's great, but then don't complain if you can't fight with it. Do you think the Ip brothers or any of the sifu qualified under them would certify a guy who wasn't a seasoned iron palm practitioner as a sifu? And if you're not really trying to master the system, how can you really expect it to work for you against all challengers?

Do sifu of the system, and did the sifu throughout the Wing Chun lineage traditionally practice iron palm? If you don't do what they did, how can you expect it to work for you like it worked for them? I guess this is just what I personally would do, before actually expecting to be able to defend myself with it. I dunno.

I personally don't care what people of the past have done. I don't think that it's needed to practice like a monk to master a system. I only practice twice a week. I'm only 150 lbs soaking wet, however I do believe that after 8 years of Karate and then 3 years of WC - that I can handle my stuff.

WC won't make me invincible...I'm not perfect in my execution...I expect to get hit, etc. With regards to Iron Palm...we could say this about anything, really:

I need to learn Iron Palm to be a good fighter and bridge that gap...

I need to learn Ground Fighting to be a good fighter and bridge that gap...

or whatever. I, like others, have a wife, child, 2 cats, dog, career, friends,etc.

Balance is important.

Anywho...as you said:

"I guess this is just what I personally would do, before actually expecting to be able to defend myself with it."

If you believe that...then it's true! If that's what works for you, do it!

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[anerlich]

Yeah, but the iron palm'd get you over in the mean time. Plus, not every guy that opens a school has or teaches great fundamentals.

It's far easier to find someone who can teach decent fighting fundamentals than it is someone who can teach iron palm.

If taught or practised improperly, iron palm can affect your health adversely and significantly. And it can make your bones, harder but more brittle.

Iron palm won't do anything for you if you can't hit with a decent delivery system of sound body mechanics in any case. It's the icing on the cake, and you can't survive on that alone.

Buy a firearm if this sort of thing worries you, they're much easier to come by and to use than is sound iron palm instruction.


Do you think the Ip brothers or any of the sifu qualified under them would certify a guy who wasn't a seasoned iron palm practitioner as a sifu?

Yep, I reckon they would, and have. And opinions vary on whether they are the benchmark for WC.


Plus, how is a 5' 3" guy gonna beat someone 6' 3" and over 200 lbs?

With great difficulty, with or without iron palm. Sad but true.


Do sifu of the system, and did the sifu throughout the Wing Chun lineage traditionally practice iron palm?

Some do, some don't. Iron palm practice is not what made the effective ones effective.

[Faruq]

Well I stand corrected! LOL No, you guys make good points. It does make sense that it would be as hard to find a sifu to teach iron palm properly as the rest of the stuff.

"I personally don't care what people of the past have done. I don't think that it's needed to practice like a monk to master a system. I only practice twice a week. I'm only 150 lbs soaking wet, however I do believe that after 8 years of Karate and then 3 years of WC - that I can handle my stuff..."

I don't think that you have to be a monk to be a sifu. I would think the quote above would probably be the sentiment of a lot of people, and it really spoke to me. My point wasn't that you had to train like a monk to become a master, but more if you only train 3 nights a week are you ever gonna master any system? I wouldn't expect anyone to give up their life to be a master of Wing Chun (though you'd probably have to to become a serious fighter in any pugilistic art). I would expect that lots of masters don't even have schools. Probably some business owners in the mix here and there, people who have their basements layed out like a kwoon with all the equipment, but no monks.

And as far as the comment about the Ips, you guys're right. That's only one school out of hundreds of Wing Chun systems. Plus, I only knew one guy certified in the Ip system. That guy didn't practice karate or other arts, had to live or die on Wing Chun alone, and did do iron palm. But having known one guy certified under them doesn't really qualify me to speak on what they require of their people. My point in mentioning them was, do you think two guys whose whole livelyhood is based on their reputation, would allow someone who hadn't mastered iron palm to represent their method?

I'd even go to as far as to ask, wouldn't many laugh at someone who marketed themselves as a sifu but hadn't trained their hands in the traditional method? I personally consider that iron palm is the traditional method developed to give anyone a decent punch, considering that many people couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag with the hand that genetics had dealt them. Also considering how many practitioners of traditional martial arts in the U.S. don't practice iron palm, and comparing that to the number of practitioners that couldn't hold their own against a MMA practitioner: "could there be a correlation?" I was just throwing out something that I hadn't seen considered seriously in the thread. But I think like you guys say, whatever works for you.

[Edmund]

I personally consider that iron palm is the traditional method developed to give anyone a decent punch, considering that many people couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag with the hand that genetics had dealt them.

I'm not sure I understand what your definition of Iron Palm is.
Do you mean just toughening your knuckles?

Or does that include training the power of the punch?

[anerlich]

I personally consider that iron palm is the traditional method developed to give anyone a decent punch, considering that many people couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag with the hand that genetics had dealt them.

Iron palm, as I believe is generally understood(with a nod to Edmund's last post), is a means of toughening the hands using impact conditioning with various materials, and treatment with herbal and other substances.

If practised over a long period, it will (allegedly) give your hands the ability to withstand (and therefore, POSSIBLY deliver) greater impacts without injury. Having conditioned hands will not give you the ability to hit hard, only proper use of coordinated body mechanics will allow that.


Also considering how many practitioners of traditional martial arts in the U.S. don't practice iron palm, and comparing that to the number of practitioners that couldn't hold their own against a MMA practitioner: "could there be a correlation?"

Unlikely. Much more likely is the WCer's unfamiliarity with the fighting styles of their opponents, and overconfidence in their own abilities and limitations.


I'd even go to as far as to ask, wouldn't many laugh at someone who marketed themselves as a sifu but hadn't trained their hands in the traditional method?

I expect there are plenty of such people around that can teach and employ MA successfully. Some people are musicians, doctors, artists, etc. who do not want to rish their hands to such a regime. It's generally been presented to me as something for the extremely committed, or slightly mad, student, and not something you keep up all the time, as it's too easy to suffer adverse effects to your health.

Also, like many aspects of TCMA, the exploits and abilities of "Iron Palm Masters" have more often than not been either hugely exaggerated or are complete fiction. You are giving what is in effect something of a curiosity a legitimacy and importance it does not deserve.

I've had the opportunity to do iron palm, but have elected not to. Some of my sihings have done it mainly before fights or because they went through a phase where they were interested in breaking boards and bricks. I have a life, and do not need to defend, without weapons, my village from pillaging Manchus.

And as far as fighting the MMA crowd grows, I feel I've adopted a far more effective strategy, supplementing my WC training with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Vale Tudo. Some of my fellow students have succeed in the ring in kickboxing and amateur MMA without any Iron Palm training.

Do it if you want. I'd question whether it is really an effective use of valuable training time.

[Faruq]

My definition of iron palm is using bags filled with different substances and Dit Da Jow to condition the entire hand to deliver more force in a blow than it would without such training. Many look like what Augustine Fong showed in his Panther series. Of course there are lots of different jows, and lots of different ways to position the bags that you're gonna be conditioning your hands against, but that's the best generic definition I can come up with at this moment.


I'm not sure I understand what your definition of Iron Palm is.
Do you mean just toughening your knuckles?

Or does that include training the power of the punch?

[Edmund]

My definition of iron palm is using bags filled with different substances and Dit Da Jow to condition the entire hand to deliver more force in a blow than it would without such training. Of course there are lots of different jows, and lots of different ways to position the bags that you're gonna be conditioning your hands against, but that's the best generic definition I can come up with at this moment.

Well how's that helping the 5'3 guy against Godzilla? I don't think his hand conditioning is the major factor in determining the winner.

He's still going to get beaten senseless but his hands will look real nice.

[Faruq]

If practised over a long period, it will (allegedly) give your hands the ability to withstand (and therefore, POSSIBLY deliver) greater impacts without injury. Having conditioned hands will not give you the ability to hit hard, only proper use of coordinated body mechanics will allow that.

I expect there are plenty of such people around that can teach and employ MA successfully. Some people are musicians, doctors, artists, etc. who do not want to rish their hands to such a regime. It's generally been presented to me as something for the extremely committed, or slightly mad, student, and not something you keep up all the time, as it's too easy to suffer adverse effects to your health.

Also, like many aspects of TCMA, the exploits and abilities of "Iron Palm Masters" have more often than not been either hugely exaggerated or are complete fiction. You are giving what is in effect something of a curiosity a legitimacy and importance it does not deserve.


A very well thought out, point by point argument. I don't think anything I'd say would convince you that there was any value in iron palm, so I won't try. I'll just respond to a few of the points you made, with more of my opinion.

First, it has been my experience that even heavy hands alone make a difference in the type of punch you deliver, not to mention increasing blood flow, tendon bone muscle and skin density through the practice of iron palm (and that's not even addressing it's real purpose of dramatically increasing your ability to transfer energy into your target/opponent). Buddies who grew up boxing in local city park districts have also attested to the difference in getting punched by heavy handed fighters, and a lot of the boxers, like a lot of Wing Chun practitioners never achieve proper use of coordinated body mechanics. So it's not like they could be confusing all the heavy handed fighters with people who just have proper punching mechanics. Plus I've done chi sau with people that train their hands (though I admit its been a while), and their hands and forearms felt like steel. I never saw them break any boards or bricks I admit, but doing chi sau and techniques with them was painful enough.

Second, I'm not surprised the iron palm would have been presented to you in that fashion by your teachers, as becoming competent fighters frequently means the students feeling they've accomplished what they wanted to, and saving money by practicing on their own instead of continuing to take classes indefinately. So in presenting it to students, teachers risk losing them once they achieve real power.

Third, I'm not surprised that people who only did it before a fight wouldn't have a high oinion of it. Iron palm takes years to develop any real power, so doing it for a few months before a fight wouldn't give you any discernable difference in your punch.

Last, iron palm is neither an exaggeration, curiosity or complete fiction to me. I'm not saying its the panacea to all deficiencies in a fighter. Nor did I attibute any fictional powers to it. I gave it the very standard ability of giving anyone the ability to deliver a decent punch. What's so fantastic about that? LOL.

[Faruq]

Well how's that helping the 5'3 guy against Godzilla? I don't think his hand conditioning is the major factor in determining the winner.

He's still going to get beaten senseless but his hands will look real nice.


Daaaammmnnn, Eddie! That's cold!

Okay, you got me. But getting hit in the knee, testes, pelvic bone, bladder, stomach, floating ribs, arm, elbow or face with brass knuckles would hurt Godzilla wouldn't it? That's the kind of hand power I'm talking about. Add that to the speed, technique, fighting theory and skill of the accomplished Wing Chun fighter and you've got a much better combination than you had without it. Nothing fantastic, just a hand so conditioned to delivering force that the speed alone generated with good Wing Chun training would make it painful.

[Edmund]

Daaaammmnnn, Eddie! That's cold!

Okay, you got me. But getting hit in the knee, testes, pelvic bone, bladder, stomach, floating ribs, arm, elbow or face with brass knuckles would hurt Godzilla wouldn't it? That's the kind of hand power I'm talking about. Add that to the speed, technique, fighting theory and skill of the accomplished Wing Chun fighter and you've got a much better combination than you had without it. Nothing fantastic, just a hand so conditioned to delivering force that the speed alone generated with good Wing Chun training would make it painful.

I guess I would agree that your hand conditioning is ONE factor but you've just mentioned some others (speed, technique, fighting theory and skill) that would be of greater importance. So I don't know why you say iron palm is integral to WC.

If that's the case ,then by extrapolation why not Iron Shirt too?

[Faruq]

I should preface this post by saying that:

1.This thread was started by someone disillusioned with his training. Anerlich and Edmund, you guys obviously are not.

2. A lot of people who study martial arts were bullied or took some beatings, saw a martial artist administer a dramatic beatdown (whether in a movie, or in person) on one or more people that had started trouble with him, and said to themselves "I've got to learn to do that!"

3. I've got to recognize that different people like to train different things, and as I might prefer not to train extra time on what they specifically put their extra training time into, you might choose not to go beyond the average iron palm training (but skip it altogether? C'mon.) and train your extra time in forms, speed or flow for example.

Now, since this is just my personal opinion, largely predicated upon by the schools I've been in, and the fact that iron palm was considered one of the basic Wing Chun skills by that teacher, I'm going to believe it's one of the things skills every competent Wing Chun fighter would have. But to answer your question "Why iron palm?" Because without punching power, a fight could last for hours. lol. Because of the fact that the Wing Chun fighter never commits his whole body to one punch, I have never seen it generate the type of punching power that let's say a boxer would, or someone else who turns with their punches or hauls off and punches someone would without iron palm. In my experience, the punch of the Wing Chun guy who doesn't do iron palm would have power more comparable to a jab, than an overhand right, hook or uppercut where there's the turning of the whole body into the punch. And though a jab is often a very pesky punch, it doesn't frequently bring a fight to a quick close unless followed by a power punch.

And why not iron shirt? Getting hit was never as a big a concern in the school I went to as having a powerful punch. All the blocking and punching at the same time would get a non-Wing Chun guy out of your face real quick. But iron shirt isn't bad. Though it involves more chi gong, and herbs than iron palm, so finding a qualified teacher of it would probably be even more difficult than finding a qualified teacher of iron palm.

Lastly, all the TCMA sifus whose fighting ability I've ever been impressed with practiced it. And you never wanted to practice a technique more than once or twice with them because your arms were sore immediately. But if it's not important to you guys, I have to respect that. 'Nuff said.

[couch]

I should preface this post by saying that:
2. A lot of people who study martial arts were bullied or took some beatings, saw a martial artist administer a dramatic beatdown (whether in a movie, or in person) on one or more people that had started trouble with him, and said to themselves "I've got to learn to do that!"


And now I spend too much time in the kwoon or on this forum for anything ever to happen to me! :)

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[AmanuJRY]

The ancient Greek pankratists would do similar things (punching stone, being hit by clubs/sticks, etc. and then healing with herbs) as a general means of 'toughening' the body. As well as those of ancient, southern India...So, this 'practice' has exsisted, more or less globally for thousands of years.:cool:

As stated, though, this kind of conditioning is low priority compared to that of speed, timing, strength, etc.

[Faruq]

And now I spend too much time in the kwoon or on this forum for anything ever to happen to me! :)

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

That's cold, Kenton! LOL! But you're right, so what can I say?

[Faruq]

As stated, though, this kind of conditioning is low priority compared to that of speed, timing, strength, etc.


But you're obviously not disillusioned with your training though. Anyone who is has to examine all the things they're doing, and if they're leaving something out, that could be the reason. I think its actually equally important as conditioning speed, timing, strength, etc. No sifu's gonna let you pick and choose what you learn and what you don't, and still let you represent him and his system, right? Well actually, I could be wrong, so don't answer that.

Not but in honesty, I don't have any proof to support my belief other than my personal life experience. I guess since it's my belief based on my personal experiences, that's why I put so much time into backing it up. You guys checked me though. I guess if most of the guys in Hong Kong and mainland Wing Chun don't do iron palm, it's really not that important like you guys say. I would wager that they do, but unfortunately I have no way of knowing one way or the other.

[anerlich]

Second, I'm not surprised the iron palm would have been presented to you in that fashion by your teachers, as becoming competent fighters frequently means the students feeling they've accomplished what they wanted to, and saving money by practicing on their own instead of continuing to take classes indefinately. So in presenting it to students, teachers risk losing them once they achieve real power.

LOL! You are paranoid and way off base with this stuff. You're assuming all most teachers care about is money and they're scared ****less of losing students.

You're making rather insulting assumptions about my teachers.

If I'd have wanted to pursue iron palm, my teacher would have bent over backwards to help me achieve what I wanted to achieve, as he has done with a number of other students who remain with him. He runs occasional seminars on iron palm training for senior students and has contacts for the various medicines. But he says its not for everyone, and respects my wishes. Our kwoon has a retention rate that many would envy, even if my teacher gives away <reverb> the deadly secrets of iron palm </reverb>.

I'm quite happy with my striking power, though my sparmates probably less so. My forearms and shins are well enough conditioned from dummy and bag work. As Justin said, may other fighting systems have body conditioning and toughening regimes.

You seem to be implying that any teacher who doesn't demand his students complete iron palm training is some sort of charlatan.

If I were similarly inclined to making insulting assumptions about your teachers, it would be just as accurate to say that you and your teachers might obsess with iron palm because they've never learned to hit or fight properly without it. And maybe you need iron palm bacause your base delivery system can't cut the mustard, which it seems you've more or less argued is the case. And by your logic, all but the dumb ones are walking out the door once they learn the iron palm, so they no longer have to pay the teacher their hard earned money.

I don't really mean that. But please, keep this discussion out of the twilight zone.

[anerlich]

Iron palm takes years to develop any real power

A complete conditioning cycle takes about 100 days, or three months. The body can't sustain continuous iron palm training, though the really committed/insane could cut it back to a maintenance regime.

Things might be different at a school where the instructor spins things out to keep the fees coming in, of course. ;)

[Edmund]

I should preface this post by saying that:

1.This thread was started by someone disillusioned with his training. Anerlich and Edmund, you guys obviously are not.


Well how is iron palm addressing his problem?
I don't think he was complaining about his knuckles being sore.



Now, since this is just my personal opinion, largely predicated upon by the schools I've been in, and the fact that iron palm was considered one of the basic Wing Chun skills by that teacher, I'm going to believe it's one of the things skills every competent Wing Chun fighter would have. But to answer your question "Why iron palm?" Because without punching power, a fight could last for hours. lol.

But I asked earlier if iron palm was about punching power and you stated it wasn't. You said it was about how hard the striking limb was. The amount of damage a strike does is related to more than that.

[Faruq]

LOL! You are paranoid and way off base with this stuff. You're assuming all most teachers care about is money and they're scared ****less of losing students.

You're making rather insulting assumptions about my teachers.

If I'd have wanted to pursue iron palm, my teacher would have bent over backwards to help me achieve what I wanted to achieve, as he has done with a number of other students who remain with him. He runs occasional seminars on iron palm training for senior students and has contacts for the various medicines. But he says its not for everyone, and respects my wishes. Our kwoon has a retention rate that many would envy, even if my teacher gives away <reverb> the deadly secrets of iron palm </reverb>.

I'm quite happy with my striking power, though my sparmates probably less so. My forearms and shins are well enough conditioned from dummy and bag work. As Justin said, may other fighting systems have body conditioning and toughening regimes.

You seem to be implying that any teacher who doesn't demand his students complete iron palm training is some sort of charlatan.

If I were similarly inclined to making insulting assumptions about your teachers, it would be just as accurate to say that you and your teachers might obsess with iron palm because they've never learned to hit or fight properly without it. And maybe you need iron palm bacause your base delivery system can't cut the mustard, which it seems you've more or less argued is the case. And by your logic, all but the dumb ones are walking out the door once they learn the iron palm, so they no longer have to pay the teacher their hard earned money.

I don't really mean that. But please, keep this discussion out of the twilight zone.


Do you own a school too, Anerlich? LOL. Now I understand the strong reaction to my position. Okay. But then you know that when people have to live off of the schools they run, and feed their families with the income from those schools, things happen. And I admit that although none of the skilled iron palm practitioners I've come across in my life have practiced an iron palm system that didn't require everyday training, your three month system probably does really exist. The only thing is that the only way to get faster results than the years of practicing-everyday-as-long-as-you-practice systems, is to use the vinegar based dit da jows that make the bones brittle. But as there are hundreds of systems of gong fu, and hundreds of systems of chi gong, there are probably hundreds of iron palm methods out there too. So it probably does actually exist. And anything I actually said about your teachers, I apologize for, because that was a breach of ettiquette, and I now see how it could be taken offense to. I don't usually slip like that, but as I did, I apologize. But for things you extrapolated, I'm not going to apologize, because I didn't say them or have any intention of saying them. And you gave an excellent point-by-point response to my every post, that unfortunately doesn't change my life experience, how effective the iron palm practitioners I knew were, and therefore doesn't change my opinion. But if the majority of Wing Chun practitioners in Hong Kong and on the mainland don't practice it, then maybe I'm wrong, it's not an integral part of Wing Chun. But until you prove that, I've got to go with how the effective fighters I've come across did it. But like you extrapolated all kinds of things from my statements on iron palm, I see you've done the same thing about my other statements. But I attacked your livelyhood, so what else should I have expected. You've got to argue if you want to maintain it. But after what I saw happen on the Doo Wai thread, I'm gonna leave it alone. You win Anerlich. I know when I'm beat.

[Vajramusti]

__________________
Main yahan ka bahut baRa badmash hun, aur mere se koi pangha nehi leta!....
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((Idhar tum se bara badmash bahut hai.Tumara nam keya))

[anerlich]

You win Anerlich. I know when I'm beat.

Good. It took you longer than most, but I'm glad you've seen the light at last. :p

[couch]

Do you own a school too, Anerlich? LOL. When people have to live off of the schools they run, and feed their families with the income from those schools, things happen....I get the idea you just want to argue, so after what I saw happen on the Doo Wai thread, I'm gonna leave it alone. You win Anerlich. I know when I'm beat.

Not to side with anyone...just my own opinion...

Doo Wai? That's a mess. Have you read the document at http://www.pakmei.net ? regarding White Something or Other?

:)

When people have to live off of their Kung-Fu to feed families...it's true: things get watered down, etc and stuff happens. That's why my Sifu teaches out of his basement, charges 50 bux and keeps it family. I've been the commercial-need-to-eat-keep-it-mysterious business. Ain't worth the mon-ay!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Faruq]

Yeh mazaq hey. Main mazboot nahin, aur bedmash nahin. Leykan han, mere nam ke vaja se bahut badmashi yahan hui hai.



__________________
Main yahan ka bahut baRa badmash hun, aur mere se koi pangha nehi leta!....
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((Idhar tum se bara badmash bahut hai.Tumara nam keya))

[lawrenceofidaho]

If you're single, and have extra time each day, iron palm training might be an okay option, in that it would not require the same type of system recovery that; hard sparring, muscular conditioning, or cardio conditioning requires.

Similar to how a MT fighter might run a rolling pin up and down his shins while he watches television in the evening when he's winding down before going to bed, -it's not going to mess with your other training too much.

As far as how much it's actually going to help you when fighting, -probably about as much as the MT fighter that raps on his shins each evening....... Perhaps providing a slight edge in certain situations, but overall not likely to make a very significant difference, IMO.